I think it's worth noting here that even Merle Haggard recently recorded a
anti-war song. It'll be interesting to see if it gets any airplay, especially on
stations owned by the monolithic Clear Channel network, who are major Bush and
GOP supporters.

-Neb

---Original Text---
Rockers Unite to Oust Bush
http://www.rollingstone.com/news/new....asp?nid=19029

Bruce Springsteen told a crowd of 50,000 New Yorkers on October 4th to "shout a
little louder if you want the president impeached." Two weeks later, John
Mellencamp posted an open letter to America on his Web site, declaring, "We have
been lied to and terrorized by our own government, and it is time to take
action." Meanwhile, Moby, Eddie Vedder and Michael Stipe are organizing a TV-ad
campaign that will run anti-Bush commercials during the week of the State of the
Union address in January; Dave Matthews is railing against the war in Iraq in
interviews; and at press time, at least three multiband rock tours planned to
take aim at Bush-administration policies. Green Day, NOFX, Tom Morello, Dixie
Chicks, Don Henley, Willie Nelson and Steve Earle have all played (or plan to
play) for political candidates or causes. Hip-hop stars have also gotten
involved. "We have a voice and a responsibility to speak out," says Jay-Z, a
member of Russell Simmons' Hip-Hop Summit, which aims to register 4 million
voters before the 2004 election. "People listen to us."

Welcome to the increasingly partisan world of popular music -- where President
George W. Bush is a marked man. Thirty major artists interviewed for this story
cited many concerns: U.S. policy on Iraq, the Patriot Act, the Bush
administration's assault on the environment, the economy and the media. But they
all agreed that as the 2004 presidential election gets closer, it is time to
mobilize. "The America we believe in can't survive another four years of George
Bush," says Moby. Adds Lou Reed, "We must all unite and work for whomever
opposes Bush, regardless of whatever differences we may have. Our motto:
Anything but Bush."

Many artists aren't afraid to get their hands dirty in the democratic process,
either: At Punkvoter.com, more than 100 bands, including NOFX, Green Day and
Offspring, are creating voter-registration drives, a political action committee
and a Rock Against Bush Tour. Willie Nelson recently called Dennis Kucinich to
offer his time and a slogan, "Kucinich: His middle name is sin," and dozens of
other artists are contributing money to campaigns and performing in swing states
and in televised public-service announcements.

"Musicians have an obligation to get involved," says Henley, "not necessarily
because they have a forum but because they are citizens."

Donna Brazile, Al Gore's 2000 campaign manager, says that artists are important
to this campaign, because "musicians have reach that politicians need in order
to motivate people to take an active interest in their future." With that in
mind, eight Democratic candidates filmed ads for a November 4th Rock the Vote
event designed to woo young voters. In his spot, Wesley Clark even name-drops
OutKast.

It's not always easy for artists to speak out. Recently, New Jersey radio
station WCHR banned Jethro Tull after the band's lead singer, Ian Anderson, was
quoted in a local paper saying, "I hate to see the American flag hanging out of
every bloody station wagon. It's easy to confuse patriotism with nationalism.
Flag-waving ain't gonna do it."

Eight months ago, Dixie Chicks singer Natalie Maines told a London audience,
"Just so you know, we're ashamed the president of the United States is from
Texas." More than fifty radio stations pulled the Dixie Chicks' songs off the
air, and DJs and fans launched protests. Says Maines, "I thought, 'Why am I, a
country singer who has never been involved in politics publicly, the one asking
questions?'"

In July, Dixie Chicks contributed $100,000 to Rock the Vote -- the largest
single band donation in the nonprofit's history. Maines says that she hopes the
London incident will help rally eighteen- to twenty-four-year-old women to vote.
"I had gotten too comfortable in my life," she says. "And I wasn't necessarily
active for things that I believed in. It inspired me." Maines' experience may
have scared some musicians away from speaking out, but it angered others enough
to get involved. Merle Haggard, who recorded his own anti-war song, "That's the
News," this year, says that the attacks on the Chicks "reminded me of things I'd
read about Berlin in 1938. It ****ed me off."

The notion that musicians shouldn't get involved in politics is "ridiculous,"
says Mike Burkett (a.k.a. Fat Mike), lead singer of NOFX and founder of
Punkvoter.com. "Everyone should be involved in politics: cabdrivers, lawyers . .
.. everyone." Artists are in a unique position to understand the mood of this
country, too. "We travel," says Henley. "We see what the economy is like in
every city. We take the temperature of between 10,000 and 20,000 people four
nights a week."

Musicians hope that by getting involved they will inspire their fans to do the
same. James Taylor, who has supported Sen. John Kerry, says that the
administration has benefited from "a failure of citizenship." "Americans are
asleep at the wheel," Taylor adds. "We're not getting involved in our own
political process."

Mellencamp says that the goal of his open letter and his song "To Washington" is
to turn such apathy into action. "My whole purpose of being here, to write songs
or write a letter like that, is to put the idea forward that some conversation
needs to take place here, as opposed to accepting the [government] line," he
says.

But can musicians actually tilt the electoral scale, especially at a time when
voter turnout among eighteen- to twenty-four-year-olds is at an all-time low?
Republican strategists are skeptical. "People tend to choose candidates on the
issues that they stand for -- and not the position of their favorite musician,"
says Christine Iverson, spokeswoman for the Republican National Committee.
Brazile begs to differ. "People come out because they're attracted not just to
[the candidate] but also because the candidate is being endorsed by their
favorite artist," she says. "It matters."

Artists clearly agree. Many say they are convinced that they're reflecting a
national mood that is "disturbed," in the words of Haggard, or "agitated," as
Morello puts it, and that fans can be motivated to get involved. "What you have
to realize," says Russell Simmons, "is that it's a cultural step, not only a
political step. It's in style to be at the rallies. It's in style to give money
back to education." Adds Fat Mike, "If we get a few hundred thousand kids
together, we will be a force to reckon with. If anybody wants our votes, they're
going to have to give us some of the things we want. If the NRA can do it, why
can't we?"

DAMIEN CAVE
(November 26, 2003)

'Rockers' should stick to playing music and sucking up to
record company execs, which is all they know how to do.

When I want political advice from the Dixie Chicks, I'll
squeeze their legs together.



Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints,
ya know ?'

HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online !! http://pmilligan.net/palm/
Free superheat charts for 38 Ref's online at http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/

On Tue, 02 Dec 2003 23:17:01 GMT,
wrote:

'Rockers' should stick to playing music and sucking up to
record company execs, which is all they know how to do.

When I want political advice from the Dixie Chicks, I'll
squeeze their legs together.



Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me

I suffer from cognitive dissonance on this point. One the one
hand, it ****es me off to watch celebrities espouse their opinions on
non-musical matters, no matter what their opinions are. But on the
other hand, I donate to various causes, and if I suddenly became
famous, I wouldn't mind using my fame to draw attention to a cause I
believe in.
In other words, as a private citizen, I can promote spaying
and neutering of pets, and donate my money and time to those causes
that feel the same way, but if I suddenly come into fame and fortune,
any gift of my time or money is likely going to be publicized, turning
me into exactly the kind of celebrity I'm annoyed by.

Scott Gardner

On Tue, 02 Dec 2003 23:35:05 GMT, (Scott Gardner)
wrote:

On Tue, 02 Dec 2003 23:17:01 GMT,
wrote:

'Rockers' should stick to playing music and sucking up to
record company execs, which is all they know how to do.

When I want political advice from the Dixie Chicks, I'll
squeeze their legs together.



Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me

I suffer from cognitive dissonance on this point. One the one
hand, it ****es me off to watch celebrities espouse their opinions on
non-musical matters, no matter what their opinions are. But on the
other hand, I donate to various causes, and if I suddenly became
famous, I wouldn't mind using my fame to draw attention to a cause I
believe in.
In other words, as a private citizen, I can promote spaying
and neutering of pets, and donate my money and time to those causes
that feel the same way, but if I suddenly come into fame and fortune,
any gift of my time or money is likely going to be publicized, turning
me into exactly the kind of celebrity I'm annoyed by.

Scott Gardner

And such is life.

It's a free country, and they have the right express their
opinions - I'll ignore their opinions on this topic just like I do on
what soda to drink or what car to buy, or how to dress or talk or
anything else.

Anyone whose opinions are formed by what some musician said,
where that musician only has a public spotlight by virtue of screaming
'baby, baby, baby' louder and longer than those around him, is an
idiot to begin with.

Luckily, the population segment they influence is in itself
uninfluential, so there's minimal harm done.




Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints,
ya know ?'

HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online !! http://pmilligan.net/palm/
Free superheat charts for 38 Ref's online at http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/

wrote in message
...

Anyone whose opinions are formed by what some musician said,
where that musician only has a public spotlight by virtue of screaming
'baby, baby, baby' louder and longer than those around him, is an
idiot to begin with.

Say, maybe you have a point here, Paul. From now on I'll only follow the
opinions of noted soft-spoken intellectuals like Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly,
and Jesse Helms!

-Neb

"clamnebula" wrote in message
...
I think it's worth noting here that even Merle Haggard recently recorded a
anti-war song. It'll be interesting to see if it gets any airplay,
especially on
stations owned by the monolithic Clear Channel network, who are major Bush
and
GOP supporters.

How is Clear Channel monolithic? They have 10% of the market.


-Neb

---Original Text---
Rockers Unite to Oust Bush
http://www.rollingstone.com/news/new....asp?nid=19029

Bruce Springsteen told a crowd of 50,000 New Yorkers on October 4th to
"shout a
little louder if you want the president impeached." Two weeks later, John
Mellencamp posted an open letter to America on his Web site, declaring,
"We have
been lied to and terrorized by our own government, and it is time to take
action." Meanwhile, Moby, Eddie Vedder and Michael Stipe are organizing a
TV-ad
campaign that will run anti-Bush commercials during the week of the State
of the
Union address in January; Dave Matthews is railing against the war in Iraq
in
interviews; and at press time, at least three multiband rock tours planned
to
take aim at Bush-administration policies. Green Day, NOFX, Tom Morello,
Dixie
Chicks, Don Henley, Willie Nelson and Steve Earle have all played (or plan
to
play) for political candidates or causes. Hip-hop stars have also gotten
involved. "We have a voice and a responsibility to speak out," says Jay-Z,
a
member of Russell Simmons' Hip-Hop Summit, which aims to register 4
million
voters before the 2004 election. "People listen to us."

Welcome to the increasingly partisan world of popular music -- where
President
George W. Bush is a marked man. Thirty major artists interviewed for this
story
cited many concerns: U.S. policy on Iraq, the Patriot Act, the Bush
administration's assault on the environment, the economy and the media.
But they
all agreed that as the 2004 presidential election gets closer, it is time
to
mobilize. "The America we believe in can't survive another four years of
George
Bush," says Moby. Adds Lou Reed, "We must all unite and work for whomever
opposes Bush, regardless of whatever differences we may have. Our motto:
Anything but Bush."

Many artists aren't afraid to get their hands dirty in the democratic
process,
either: At Punkvoter.com, more than 100 bands, including NOFX, Green Day
and
Offspring, are creating voter-registration drives, a political action
committee
and a Rock Against Bush Tour. Willie Nelson recently called Dennis
Kucinich to
offer his time and a slogan, "Kucinich: His middle name is sin," and
dozens of
other artists are contributing money to campaigns and performing in swing
states
and in televised public-service announcements.

"Musicians have an obligation to get involved," says Henley, "not
necessarily
because they have a forum but because they are citizens."

Donna Brazile, Al Gore's 2000 campaign manager, says that artists are
important
to this campaign, because "musicians have reach that politicians need in
order
to motivate people to take an active interest in their future." With that
in
mind, eight Democratic candidates filmed ads for a November 4th Rock the
Vote
event designed to woo young voters. In his spot, Wesley Clark even
name-drops
OutKast.

It's not always easy for artists to speak out. Recently, New Jersey radio
station WCHR banned Jethro Tull after the band's lead singer, Ian
Anderson, was
quoted in a local paper saying, "I hate to see the American flag hanging
out of
every bloody station wagon. It's easy to confuse patriotism with
nationalism.
Flag-waving ain't gonna do it."

Eight months ago, Dixie Chicks singer Natalie Maines told a London
audience,
"Just so you know, we're ashamed the president of the United States is
from
Texas." More than fifty radio stations pulled the Dixie Chicks' songs off
the
air, and DJs and fans launched protests. Says Maines, "I thought, 'Why am
I, a
country singer who has never been involved in politics publicly, the one
asking
questions?'"

In July, Dixie Chicks contributed $100,000 to Rock the Vote -- the largest
single band donation in the nonprofit's history. Maines says that she
hopes the
London incident will help rally eighteen- to twenty-four-year-old women to
vote.
"I had gotten too comfortable in my life," she says. "And I wasn't
necessarily
active for things that I believed in. It inspired me." Maines' experience
may
have scared some musicians away from speaking out, but it angered others
enough
to get involved. Merle Haggard, who recorded his own anti-war song,
"That's the
News," this year, says that the attacks on the Chicks "reminded me of
things I'd
read about Berlin in 1938. It ****ed me off."

The notion that musicians shouldn't get involved in politics is
"ridiculous,"
says Mike Burkett (a.k.a. Fat Mike), lead singer of NOFX and founder of
Punkvoter.com. "Everyone should be involved in politics: cabdrivers,
lawyers . .
. everyone." Artists are in a unique position to understand the mood of
this
country, too. "We travel," says Henley. "We see what the economy is like
in
every city. We take the temperature of between 10,000 and 20,000 people
four
nights a week."

Musicians hope that by getting involved they will inspire their fans to do
the
same. James Taylor, who has supported Sen. John Kerry, says that the
administration has benefited from "a failure of citizenship." "Americans
are
asleep at the wheel," Taylor adds. "We're not getting involved in our own
political process."

Mellencamp says that the goal of his open letter and his song "To
Washington" is
to turn such apathy into action. "My whole purpose of being here, to write
songs
or write a letter like that, is to put the idea forward that some
conversation
needs to take place here, as opposed to accepting the [government] line,"
he
says.

But can musicians actually tilt the electoral scale, especially at a time
when
voter turnout among eighteen- to twenty-four-year-olds is at an all-time
low?
Republican strategists are skeptical. "People tend to choose candidates on
the
issues that they stand for -- and not the position of their favorite
musician,"
says Christine Iverson, spokeswoman for the Republican National Committee.
Brazile begs to differ. "People come out because they're attracted not
just to
[the candidate] but also because the candidate is being endorsed by their
favorite artist," she says. "It matters."

Artists clearly agree. Many say they are convinced that they're reflecting
a
national mood that is "disturbed," in the words of Haggard, or "agitated,"
as
Morello puts it, and that fans can be motivated to get involved. "What you
have
to realize," says Russell Simmons, "is that it's a cultural step, not only
a
political step. It's in style to be at the rallies. It's in style to give
money
back to education." Adds Fat Mike, "If we get a few hundred thousand kids
together, we will be a force to reckon with. If anybody wants our votes,
they're
going to have to give us some of the things we want. If the NRA can do it,
why
can't we?"

DAMIEN CAVE
(November 26, 2003)

On Tue, 02 Dec 2003 23:50:42 GMT,
wrote:


And such is life.

It's a free country, and they have the right express their
opinions - I'll ignore their opinions on this topic just like I do on
what soda to drink or what car to buy, or how to dress or talk or
anything else.

Anyone whose opinions are formed by what some musician said,
where that musician only has a public spotlight by virtue of screaming
'baby, baby, baby' louder and longer than those around him, is an
idiot to begin with.

Luckily, the population segment they influence is in itself
uninfluential, so there's minimal harm done.




Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me


Very true. I would never deny them their right to say what they want.
I guess in some cases, it's more their choice of venue that bothers
me. Whenever I see some celebrity talking politics on "The Tonight
Show", I think "The next time you find yourself on "Crossfire" or
"Meet the Press", feel free to talk politics. You're sitting next to
Leno solely because you're a celebrity, so sing us a song or plug your
next movie."

Scott Gardner

On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 00:11:05 GMT, (Scott Gardner)
wrote:

On Tue, 02 Dec 2003 23:50:42 GMT,
wrote:


Very true. I would never deny them their right to say what they want.
I guess in some cases, it's more their choice of venue that bothers
me. Whenever I see some celebrity talking politics on "The Tonight
Show", I think "The next time you find yourself on "Crossfire" or
"Meet the Press", feel free to talk politics. You're sitting next to
Leno solely because you're a celebrity, so sing us a song or plug your
next movie."

Scott Gardner

Oh, I purely agree ! Yes, they irritate me, too. So, I add
it to the list of things that irritate me about pop icons, whether
from music, sports, or other venues, and ignore it.

Some are worse that others - Bono, for instance. So
two-faced ! He's so busy talking about his AIDS thing, along with his
superstar musician buddies. If they want to be concerned about
helping on that issue, fine - but let them take those millions of
dollars they have in the bank and donate to the cause ! Let them sell
their mansions and Lear jets and such and put their money where their
overly large mouths are. Flying around on a chartered jet, being
waited on hand and foot, walking on stage for an hour, and patting
yourself on the back for doing it because you didn't charge your
usual '$ 100,000 + 50 % of the gate' appearance fee is not what I call
'charity work'.

It seems, in their world view, they get to keep their hundreds
of millions themselves, while they bitch and whine about ' evil
superpowers not doing enough to help', and then go off to some $1,000
/ head reception in the ritziest place in town, snort cocaine until
dawn, and call it 'charity work'.



Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints,
ya know ?'

HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online !! http://pmilligan.net/palm/
Free superheat charts for 38 Ref's online at http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/

On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 00:36:15 GMT,
wrote:


Oh, I purely agree ! Yes, they irritate me, too. So, I add
it to the list of things that irritate me about pop icons, whether
from music, sports, or other venues, and ignore it.

Some are worse that others - Bono, for instance. So
two-faced ! He's so busy talking about his AIDS thing, along with his
superstar musician buddies. If they want to be concerned about
helping on that issue, fine - but let them take those millions of
dollars they have in the bank and donate to the cause ! Let them sell
their mansions and Lear jets and such and put their money where their
overly large mouths are. Flying around on a chartered jet, being
waited on hand and foot, walking on stage for an hour, and patting
yourself on the back for doing it because you didn't charge your
usual '$ 100,000 + 50 % of the gate' appearance fee is not what I call
'charity work'.

It seems, in their world view, they get to keep their hundreds
of millions themselves, while they bitch and whine about ' evil
superpowers not doing enough to help', and then go off to some $1,000
/ head reception in the ritziest place in town, snort cocaine until
dawn, and call it 'charity work'.



Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me

The ones I have a real cognitive problem with are the ones that are so
vocal in their opinions that they're almost as famous now for their
political views as they are for what made them celebrities in the
first place. I'm talking about people like Streisand, Fonda, and
Sarandon. When I see them in non-political surroundings, I really
can't begrudge them for talking about politics, because these days,
their political views have as much to do with their fame (notoriety?)
as their work in the entertainment industry.

Scott Gardner

On Tue, 2 Dec 2003 16:03:31 -0800, "Michael Mckelvy"
wrote:


"clamnebula" wrote in message
.. .
I think it's worth noting here that even Merle Haggard recently recorded a
anti-war song. It'll be interesting to see if it gets any airplay,
especially on
stations owned by the monolithic Clear Channel network, who are major Bush
and
GOP supporters.

How is Clear Channel monolithic? They have 10% of the market.

Which market?

Scott Gardner said:

The ones I have a real cognitive problem with are the ones that are so
vocal in their opinions that they're almost as famous now for their
political views as they are for what made them celebrities in the
first place. I'm talking about people like Streisand, Fonda, and
Sarandon.

You left out Ah-nold. His political position is that he can forgive
himself for crimes committed in an earlier phase of his fantastic life.

On Tue, 02 Dec 2003 19:53:33 -0500, George M. Middius
wrote:



Scott Gardner said:

The ones I have a real cognitive problem with are the ones that are so
vocal in their opinions that they're almost as famous now for their
political views as they are for what made them celebrities in the
first place. I'm talking about people like Streisand, Fonda, and
Sarandon.

You left out Ah-nold. His political position is that he can forgive
himself for crimes committed in an earlier phase of his fantastic life.


Very good example. He initially garnered fame as a
bodybuilder, then later as an actor. In addition, part of his fame
comes from being a conservative in a family famous for being liberal
democrats. Now he's famous for getting the governorship of California
after a political circus of a recall election.
So if I were to see him talking politics on "The Tonight
Show", I'd feel he has more right to do so than someone that's only
famous for being an entertainer, even though he received his fame
initially as a performer.

Scott Gardner

In article ,
wrote:

On Tue, 02 Dec 2003 23:35:05 GMT, (Scott Gardner)
wrote:

On Tue, 02 Dec 2003 23:17:01 GMT,
wrote:

'Rockers' should stick to playing music and sucking up to
record company execs, which is all they know how to do.

When I want political advice from the Dixie Chicks, I'll
squeeze their legs together.



Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me

I suffer from cognitive dissonance on this point. One the one
hand, it ****es me off to watch celebrities espouse their opinions on
non-musical matters, no matter what their opinions are. But on the
other hand, I donate to various causes, and if I suddenly became
famous, I wouldn't mind using my fame to draw attention to a cause I
believe in.
In other words, as a private citizen, I can promote spaying
and neutering of pets, and donate my money and time to those causes
that feel the same way, but if I suddenly come into fame and fortune,
any gift of my time or money is likely going to be publicized, turning
me into exactly the kind of celebrity I'm annoyed by.

Scott Gardner

And such is life.

It's a free country, and they have the right express their
opinions - I'll ignore their opinions on this topic just like I do on
what soda to drink or what car to buy, or how to dress or talk or
anything else.

Anyone whose opinions are formed by what some musician said,
where that musician only has a public spotlight by virtue of screaming
'baby, baby, baby' louder and longer than those around him, is an
idiot to begin with.


True, but they're allowed to vote anyway.

Luckily, the population segment they influence is in itself
uninfluential, so there's minimal harm done.


Not quite, they could be influential if they voted, but fortunately
they don't. I'm agreeing with you but saying it differently.

I did like the bit about Willie Nelson recently calling Dennis Kucinich
to offer his time and a slogan, "Kucinich: His middle name is sin,".
That's sure to be a winner. :-)

In article , clamnebula
wrote:

wrote in message
...

Anyone whose opinions are formed by what some musician said,
where that musician only has a public spotlight by virtue of screaming
'baby, baby, baby' louder and longer than those around him, is an
idiot to begin with.

Say, maybe you have a point here, Paul. From now on I'll only follow the
opinions of noted soft-spoken intellectuals like Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly,
and Jesse Helms!


And you can't see the difference between those whose job is to discuss
politics and Barbra Striesand types?

In article ,
wrote:

On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 00:11:05 GMT, (Scott Gardner)
wrote:

On Tue, 02 Dec 2003 23:50:42 GMT,
wrote:


Very true. I would never deny them their right to say what they want.
I guess in some cases, it's more their choice of venue that bothers
me. Whenever I see some celebrity talking politics on "The Tonight
Show", I think "The next time you find yourself on "Crossfire" or
"Meet the Press", feel free to talk politics. You're sitting next to
Leno solely because you're a celebrity, so sing us a song or plug your
next movie."

Scott Gardner

Oh, I purely agree ! Yes, they irritate me, too. So, I add
it to the list of things that irritate me about pop icons, whether
from music, sports, or other venues, and ignore it.

Some are worse that others - Bono, for instance.

I vote for Barbra Streisand. She bitches about gas guzzling SUVs while
she occupies a 9 or 10 thousand square foot mansion. How much oil do
you think it takes to heat and cool that?

"dave weil" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 2 Dec 2003 16:03:31 -0800, "Michael Mckelvy"
wrote:


"clamnebula" wrote in message
.. .
I think it's worth noting here that even Merle Haggard recently
recorded a
anti-war song. It'll be interesting to see if it gets any airplay,
especially on
stations owned by the monolithic Clear Channel network, who are major
Bush
and
GOP supporters.

How is Clear Channel monolithic? They have 10% of the market.

Which market?

Radio.

Ed Foster said:

I vote for Barbra Streisand. She bitches about gas guzzling SUVs while
she occupies a 9 or 10 thousand square foot mansion. How much oil do
you think it takes to heat and cool that?

I'd bet her heating bill for an entire year is less than one SUV
tankful. Besides, she might be in a nuclear zone. Isn't there a reactor
somewhere east of L.A.?

"George M. Middius" wrote in message
news


Ed Foster said:

I vote for Barbra Streisand. She bitches about gas guzzling SUVs while
she occupies a 9 or 10 thousand square foot mansion. How much oil do
you think it takes to heat and cool that?

I'd bet her heating bill for an entire year is less than one SUV
tankful. Besides, she might be in a nuclear zone. Isn't there a reactor
somewhere east of L.A.?

San Onofre is south of LA. So Cal electricity is predominantly
sourced from natural gas burning plants.

ScottW

On Tue, 2 Dec 2003 18:07:35 -0800, "Michael Mckelvy"
wrote:


"dave weil" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 2 Dec 2003 16:03:31 -0800, "Michael Mckelvy"
wrote:


"clamnebula" wrote in message
.. .
I think it's worth noting here that even Merle Haggard recently
recorded a
anti-war song. It'll be interesting to see if it gets any airplay,
especially on
stations owned by the monolithic Clear Channel network, who are major
Bush
and
GOP supporters.

How is Clear Channel monolithic? They have 10% of the market.

Which market?

Radio.

Well, sorta.

I only mentioned it to highlight what a one-dimensional thinker you
are.

First of all, they have 10% of the ENTIRE radio market in the states,
but they have 50% of the POPULAR MUSIC stations in the country.

Not only that, they control a substantial proportion of the concert
seats in the US.

The synergy between those two markets (radio and concerts) well
exceeds the parts.

They are far and away the largest players in the game. There's NOBODY
that's even close. I maintain that makes them monolithic.

On Tue, 02 Dec 2003 21:14:41 -0500, George M. Middius
wrote:



Ed Foster said:

I vote for Barbra Streisand. She bitches about gas guzzling SUVs while
she occupies a 9 or 10 thousand square foot mansion. How much oil do
you think it takes to heat and cool that?

I'd bet her heating bill for an entire year is less than one SUV
tankful. Besides, she might be in a nuclear zone. Isn't there a reactor
somewhere east of L.A.?

You really *are* joking, right George? My heating bill for next month
will easily be double the price of an SUV tankful. Admittedly, I live
in a porous old house with a floor furnace, but it's only 1200 sq ft.
for god's sake. My heating bill for last year ran something $700 or
$800 dollars easily. My worst month was $250. Talk about a shock. of
that, *maybe* $20 was for my water heater.

The Idiot said:

I'd bet her heating bill for an entire year is less than one SUV
tankful. Besides, she might be in a nuclear zone. Isn't there a reactor
somewhere east of L.A.?

San Onofre is south of LA. So Cal electricity is predominantly
sourced from natural gas burning plants.

Sorry, didn't mean to wake you from your stupor.

dave weil said:

I'd bet her heating bill for an entire year is less than one SUV
tankful. Besides, she might be in a nuclear zone. Isn't there a reactor
somewhere east of L.A.?

You really *are* joking, right George? My heating bill for next month
will easily be double the price of an SUV tankful.

Do you live in SoCal?

Admittedly, I live
in a porous old house with a floor furnace, but it's only 1200 sq ft.

In Tennesee, if I haven't become completely disoriented.

for god's sake. My heating bill for last year ran something $700 or
$800 dollars easily. My worst month was $250. Talk about a shock. of
that, *maybe* $20 was for my water heater.

They run the AC ten months per year in LA. Average temperature is
69. Yours is 58.

I did forget about hot water, though, so maybe two SUV tankfuls.

On Tue, 02 Dec 2003 22:31:21 -0500, George M. Middius
wrote:



dave weil said:

I'd bet her heating bill for an entire year is less than one SUV
tankful. Besides, she might be in a nuclear zone. Isn't there a reactor
somewhere east of L.A.?

You really *are* joking, right George? My heating bill for next month
will easily be double the price of an SUV tankful.

Do you live in SoCal?

Good point.

Admittedly, I live
in a porous old house with a floor furnace, but it's only 1200 sq ft.

In Tennesee, if I haven't become completely disoriented.

Another good point.

for god's sake. My heating bill for last year ran something $700 or
$800 dollars easily. My worst month was $250. Talk about a shock. of
that, *maybe* $20 was for my water heater.

They run the AC ten months per year in LA. Average temperature is
69. Yours is 58.

I did forget about hot water, though, so maybe two SUV tankfuls.

I *knew* I was right.

(just kidding)

Still, I'll bet ya that on those cool nights, 10,000 sq ft. ain't
cheap to warm up. And I'll bet Barb doesn't cotton to no chilly
drafts.

dave weil said:

I did forget about hot water, though, so maybe two SUV tankfuls.

I *knew* I was right.
(just kidding)

Scottie says natural gas is the most likely fuel.

Still, I'll bet ya that on those cool nights, 10,000 sq ft. ain't
cheap to warm up. And I'll bet Barb doesn't cotton to no chilly
drafts.

God, yes. Just think of how many Vulcans a restaurant could power
with the gas she burns up.

I'd bet she has solar heating to a large extent. Maybe Scottie will
research that for us.

On Tue, 02 Dec 2003 22:54:42 -0500, George M. Middius
wrote:



dave weil said:

I did forget about hot water, though, so maybe two SUV tankfuls.

I *knew* I was right.
(just kidding)

Scottie says natural gas is the most likely fuel.

It's amazing how expensive natural gas is these days.

That $250 that I talked about for one month was from a *single* floor
furnace in the middle of my house. yes, I know that it's not the most
efficient use of the fuel, but still...

Still, I'll bet ya that on those cool nights, 10,000 sq ft. ain't
cheap to warm up. And I'll bet Barb doesn't cotton to no chilly
drafts.

God, yes. Just think of how many Vulcans a restaurant could power
with the gas she burns up.

1?

I'd bet she has solar heating to a large extent. Maybe Scottie will
research that for us.

Probably. If that's the case, then you have to factor in the $30,000
that would be required as a startup for a house that size.

Then there's the greenhouse, the pool, the spas, the hot tubs and all
of that. I think she lives on top of a small mountain, so it's
probably a bit drafty in January.

In article , George M.
Middius wrote:

Ed Foster said:

I vote for Barbra Streisand. She bitches about gas guzzling SUVs while
she occupies a 9 or 10 thousand square foot mansion. How much oil do
you think it takes to heat and cool that?

I'd bet her heating bill for an entire year is less than one SUV
tankful.

And her cooling bill?

On Tue, 02 Dec 2003 21:14:41 -0500, George M. Middius
wrote:



Ed Foster said:

I vote for Barbra Streisand. She bitches about gas guzzling SUVs while
she occupies a 9 or 10 thousand square foot mansion. How much oil do
you think it takes to heat and cool that?

I'd bet her heating bill for an entire year is less than one SUV
tankful. Besides, she might be in a nuclear zone. Isn't there a reactor
somewhere east of L.A.?

So, Babs' mansion cools itself without any external power?

On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 00:36:15 GMT,
wrote:


Some are worse that others - Bono, for instance. So
two-faced ! He's so busy talking about his AIDS thing, along with his
superstar musician buddies. If they want to be concerned about
helping on that issue, fine - but let them take those millions of
dollars they have in the bank and donate to the cause !

"We really got started, Jimmy. Bono knows what he's doing."
-- U.S. Sen. Jesse Helms, R-NC, in 2002

He was speaking to his chief of staff, Jimmy Broughton, right after he
met with U2 band member Bono to discuss ways to stop the AIDS epidemic
in Africa. The issue was one of Helms's projects toward the end of his
tenure in the Senate. Helms insisted in his conversation with Bono
that the international private sector, not just Americans, must get
involved.

On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 14:16:44 GMT, Bender
wrote:

On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 00:36:15 GMT,
wrote:


Some are worse that others - Bono, for instance. So
two-faced ! He's so busy talking about his AIDS thing, along with his
superstar musician buddies. If they want to be concerned about
helping on that issue, fine - but let them take those millions of
dollars they have in the bank and donate to the cause !

"We really got started, Jimmy. Bono knows what he's doing."
-- U.S. Sen. Jesse Helms, R-NC, in 2002

He was speaking to his chief of staff, Jimmy Broughton, right after he
met with U2 band member Bono to discuss ways to stop the AIDS epidemic
in Africa. The issue was one of Helms's projects toward the end of his
tenure in the Senate. Helms insisted in his conversation with Bono
that the international private sector, not just Americans, must get
involved.

A) How many millions do you figure Bono has ?

B) How many more millions does he make very year ?

C) How many does he donate to the cause he espouses ?



Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints,
ya know ?'

HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online !! http://pmilligan.net/palm/
Free superheat charts for 38 Ref's online at http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/

On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 14:25:55 GMT,
wrote:

Some are worse that others - Bono, for instance. So
two-faced ! He's so busy talking about his AIDS thing, along with his
superstar musician buddies. If they want to be concerned about
helping on that issue, fine - but let them take those millions of
dollars they have in the bank and donate to the cause !

"We really got started, Jimmy. Bono knows what he's doing."
-- U.S. Sen. Jesse Helms, R-NC, in 2002

He was speaking to his chief of staff, Jimmy Broughton, right after he
met with U2 band member Bono to discuss ways to stop the AIDS epidemic
in Africa. The issue was one of Helms's projects toward the end of his
tenure in the Senate. Helms insisted in his conversation with Bono
that the international private sector, not just Americans, must get
involved.

A) How many millions do you figure Bono has ?

B) How many more millions does he make very year ?

C) How many does he donate to the cause he espouses ?

Since you can't answer the last qustion, the first two are sort of
moot.

On Tue, 2 Dec 2003 18:58:44 -0500, "clamnebula"
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .

Anyone whose opinions are formed by what some musician said,
where that musician only has a public spotlight by virtue of screaming
'baby, baby, baby' louder and longer than those around him, is an
idiot to begin with.

Say, maybe you have a point here, Paul. From now on I'll only follow the
opinions of noted soft-spoken intellectuals like Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly,
and Jesse Helms!

-Neb

Or, you could form your own opinions. Is that too much work?

On Tue, 02 Dec 2003 19:53:33 -0500, George M. Middius
wrote:



Scott Gardner said:

The ones I have a real cognitive problem with are the ones that are so
vocal in their opinions that they're almost as famous now for their
political views as they are for what made them celebrities in the
first place. I'm talking about people like Streisand, Fonda, and
Sarandon.

You left out Ah-nold. His political position is that he can forgive
himself for crimes committed in an earlier phase of his fantastic life.

What crimes are those?

On Tue, 02 Dec 2003 21:14:41 -0500, George M. Middius
wrote:



Ed Foster said:

I vote for Barbra Streisand. She bitches about gas guzzling SUVs while
she occupies a 9 or 10 thousand square foot mansion. How much oil do
you think it takes to heat and cool that?

I'd bet her heating bill for an entire year is less than one SUV
tankful.

How about that private jet she uses to fly to Washington and bitch
about pollution?

Besides, she might be in a nuclear zone. Isn't there a reactor
somewhere east of L.A.?

If she's anything like her counterparts, she should refuse to use
energy generated by nuclear power plants, since so many of that crowd
are anti-nuke kooks, but I doubt she does.

"David Phillips" wrote:

Ed Foster said:

I vote for Barbra Streisand. She bitches about gas guzzling SUVs while

SHE STEPS OUT OF A CHAUFFERED LIMO!

she occupies a 9 or 10 thousand square foot mansion. How much oil do
you think it takes to heat and cool that?

I'd bet her heating bill for an entire year is less than one SUV
tankful. Besides, she might be in a nuclear zone. Isn't there a reactor
somewhere east of L.A.?

Irrelevant. It's a power grid and electrons are fungible.
Besides, if California was producing enough of it's own
energy, they never would have had the power crisis.

So, Babs' mansion cools itself without any external power?

It's powered by those incredible eyelashes she has. You
should see the look on her face when she is using her
vibrator.

--Ted

On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 11:33:12 -0500, Tom Disque
wrote:

On Tue, 02 Dec 2003 19:53:33 -0500, George M. Middius
wrote:



Scott Gardner said:

The ones I have a real cognitive problem with are the ones that are so
vocal in their opinions that they're almost as famous now for their
political views as they are for what made them celebrities in the
first place. I'm talking about people like Streisand, Fonda, and
Sarandon.

You left out Ah-nold. His political position is that he can forgive
himself for crimes committed in an earlier phase of his fantastic life.

What crimes are those?

He grabbed a little handful of booty and ta-ta 20 or 30 years
ago from some slut that was sticking it in his face, wrapped in a pair
of sprayed-on short-shorts. Haven't you been keeping up ?



Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints,
ya know ?'

HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online !! http://pmilligan.net/palm/
Free superheat charts for 38 Ref's online at http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/

"dave weil" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 2 Dec 2003 18:07:35 -0800, "Michael Mckelvy"
wrote:


"dave weil" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 2 Dec 2003 16:03:31 -0800, "Michael Mckelvy"
wrote:


"clamnebula" wrote in message
.. .
I think it's worth noting here that even Merle Haggard recently
recorded a
anti-war song. It'll be interesting to see if it gets any airplay,
especially on
stations owned by the monolithic Clear Channel network, who are
major
Bush
and
GOP supporters.

How is Clear Channel monolithic? They have 10% of the market.

Which market?

Radio.

Well, sorta.

I only mentioned it to highlight what a one-dimensional thinker you
are.

First of all, they have 10% of the ENTIRE radio market in the states,
but they have 50% of the POPULAR MUSIC stations in the country.

Not only that, they control a substantial proportion of the concert
seats in the US.

The synergy between those two markets (radio and concerts) well
exceeds the parts.

They are far and away the largest players in the game. There's NOBODY
that's even close. I maintain that makes them monolithic.

Then realize you are an idiot by your own admission.

50% and significant portion do not equal monolithic.

On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 16:51:19 -0800, "Michael Mckelvy"
wrote:

First of all, they have 10% of the ENTIRE radio market in the states,
but they have 50% of the POPULAR MUSIC stations in the country.

Not only that, they control a substantial proportion of the concert
seats in the US.

The synergy between those two markets (radio and concerts) well
exceeds the parts.

They are far and away the largest players in the game. There's NOBODY
that's even close. I maintain that makes them monolithic.

Then realize you are an idiot by your own admission.

50% and significant portion do not equal monolithic.

Sure it does. Besides, I didn't say "significant".

Learn to read.

Oh wait, I forgot who I was talking to.

"dave weil" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 16:51:19 -0800, "Michael Mckelvy"
wrote:

First of all, they have 10% of the ENTIRE radio market in the states,
but they have 50% of the POPULAR MUSIC stations in the country.

Not only that, they control a substantial proportion of the concert
seats in the US.

The synergy between those two markets (radio and concerts) well
exceeds the parts.

They are far and away the largest players in the game. There's NOBODY
that's even close. I maintain that makes them monolithic.

Then realize you are an idiot by your own admission.

50% and significant portion do not equal monolithic.

Sure it does. Besides, I didn't say "significant".

Learn to read.

Oh wait, I forgot who I was talking to.

And I forgot to add you're a nit-picking asshole.

Learn to think.

Firstly,

No way big business will allow Bush to not be reelected.

Secondly,

As a DESPISER of AMERICA, I WANT bush reelected. What's not to like?
Americans dying, huge budget deficit, plunder of the environment, lack
of democracy and guns for all.

BUSH FOREVER

clamnebula wrote:

I think it's worth noting here that even Merle Haggard recently recorded a
anti-war song. It'll be interesting to see if it gets any airplay, especially on
stations owned by the monolithic Clear Channel network, who are major Bush and
GOP supporters.

-Neb

---Original Text---
Rockers Unite to Oust Bush
http://www.rollingstone.com/news/new....asp?nid=19029

Bruce Springsteen told a crowd of 50,000 New Yorkers on October 4th to "shout a
little louder if you want the president impeached." Two weeks later, John
Mellencamp posted an open letter to America on his Web site, declaring, "We have
been lied to and terrorized by our own government, and it is time to take
action." Meanwhile, Moby, Eddie Vedder and Michael Stipe are organizing a TV-ad
campaign that will run anti-Bush commercials during the week of the State of the
Union address in January; Dave Matthews is railing against the war in Iraq in
interviews; and at press time, at least three multiband rock tours planned to
take aim at Bush-administration policies. Green Day, NOFX, Tom Morello, Dixie
Chicks, Don Henley, Willie Nelson and Steve Earle have all played (or plan to
play) for political candidates or causes. Hip-hop stars have also gotten
involved. "We have a voice and a responsibility to speak out," says Jay-Z, a
member of Russell Simmons' Hip-Hop Summit, which aims to register 4 million
voters before the 2004 election. "People listen to us."

Welcome to the increasingly partisan world of popular music -- where President
George W. Bush is a marked man. Thirty major artists interviewed for this story
cited many concerns: U.S. policy on Iraq, the Patriot Act, the Bush
administration's assault on the environment, the economy and the media. But they
all agreed that as the 2004 presidential election gets closer, it is time to
mobilize. "The America we believe in can't survive another four years of George
Bush," says Moby. Adds Lou Reed, "We must all unite and work for whomever
opposes Bush, regardless of whatever differences we may have. Our motto:
Anything but Bush."

Many artists aren't afraid to get their hands dirty in the democratic process,
either: At Punkvoter.com, more than 100 bands, including NOFX, Green Day and
Offspring, are creating voter-registration drives, a political action committee
and a Rock Against Bush Tour. Willie Nelson recently called Dennis Kucinich to
offer his time and a slogan, "Kucinich: His middle name is sin," and dozens of
other artists are contributing money to campaigns and performing in swing states
and in televised public-service announcements.

"Musicians have an obligation to get involved," says Henley, "not necessarily
because they have a forum but because they are citizens."

Donna Brazile, Al Gore's 2000 campaign manager, says that artists are important
to this campaign, because "musicians have reach that politicians need in order
to motivate people to take an active interest in their future." With that in
mind, eight Democratic candidates filmed ads for a November 4th Rock the Vote
event designed to woo young voters. In his spot, Wesley Clark even name-drops
OutKast.

It's not always easy for artists to speak out. Recently, New Jersey radio
station WCHR banned Jethro Tull after the band's lead singer, Ian Anderson, was
quoted in a local paper saying, "I hate to see the American flag hanging out of
every bloody station wagon. It's easy to confuse patriotism with nationalism.
Flag-waving ain't gonna do it."

Eight months ago, Dixie Chicks singer Natalie Maines told a London audience,
"Just so you know, we're ashamed the president of the United States is from
Texas." More than fifty radio stations pulled the Dixie Chicks' songs off the
air, and DJs and fans launched protests. Says Maines, "I thought, 'Why am I, a
country singer who has never been involved in politics publicly, the one asking
questions?'"

In July, Dixie Chicks contributed $100,000 to Rock the Vote -- the largest
single band donation in the nonprofit's history. Maines says that she hopes the
London incident will help rally eighteen- to twenty-four-year-old women to vote.
"I had gotten too comfortable in my life," she says. "And I wasn't necessarily
active for things that I believed in. It inspired me." Maines' experience may
have scared some musicians away from speaking out, but it angered others enough
to get involved. Merle Haggard, who recorded his own anti-war song, "That's the
News," this year, says that the attacks on the Chicks "reminded me of things I'd
read about Berlin in 1938. It ****ed me off."

The notion that musicians shouldn't get involved in politics is "ridiculous,"
says Mike Burkett (a.k.a. Fat Mike), lead singer of NOFX and founder of
Punkvoter.com. "Everyone should be involved in politics: cabdrivers, lawyers . .
. everyone." Artists are in a unique position to understand the mood of this
country, too. "We travel," says Henley. "We see what the economy is like in
every city. We take the temperature of between 10,000 and 20,000 people four
nights a week."

Musicians hope that by getting involved they will inspire their fans to do the
same. James Taylor, who has supported Sen. John Kerry, says that the
administration has benefited from "a failure of citizenship." "Americans are
asleep at the wheel," Taylor adds. "We're not getting involved in our own
political process."

Mellencamp says that the goal of his open letter and his song "To Washington" is
to turn such apathy into action. "My whole purpose of being here, to write songs
or write a letter like that, is to put the idea forward that some conversation
needs to take place here, as opposed to accepting the [government] line," he
says.

But can musicians actually tilt the electoral scale, especially at a time when
voter turnout among eighteen- to twenty-four-year-olds is at an all-time low?
Republican strategists are skeptical. "People tend to choose candidates on the
issues that they stand for -- and not the position of their favorite musician,"
says Christine Iverson, spokeswoman for the Republican National Committee.
Brazile begs to differ. "People come out because they're attracted not just to
[the candidate] but also because the candidate is being endorsed by their
favorite artist," she says. "It matters."

Artists clearly agree. Many say they are convinced that they're reflecting a
national mood that is "disturbed," in the words of Haggard, or "agitated," as
Morello puts it, and that fans can be motivated to get involved. "What you have
to realize," says Russell Simmons, "is that it's a cultural step, not only a
political step. It's in style to be at the rallies. It's in style to give money
back to education." Adds Fat Mike, "If we get a few hundred thousand kids
together, we will be a force to reckon with. If anybody wants our votes, they're
going to have to give us some of the things we want. If the NRA can do it, why
can't we?"

DAMIEN CAVE
(November 26, 2003)

On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 17:42:03 -0500, AAA wrote:

Firstly,

No way big business will allow Bush to not be reelected.

Maybe in whatever squalid little ******** wannabe country you
live in, business gets to decide that. Here, if we can keep the
Hollywood liberals, lawyers associations, and unions at bay ( and we
usually do ), the *people* decide. Otherwise, we get another
DemocRat.

Secondly,

As a DESPISER of AMERICA,

Despise *this*, mother****er. Chances are, whatever mud hut
you live in only has freedom *because* of the USA, so shut your whiny
little cake-hole.

I WANT bush reelected. What's not to like?
Americans dying, huge budget deficit, plunder of the environment, lack
of democracy and guns for all.

You must live in one of those Socialist third-world ********s
like Germany, England, France, or Nigeria ( pick any one ) that dream
of being the USA, but never will be.

Now, go turn your neighbor in to your government for having a
gun so he can be disarmed.

BUSH FOREVER

No, just another 5 years. That's our system.

Of course, there *is* *another* Bush in the wings .... :-)



Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints,
ya know ?'

HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online !! http://pmilligan.net/palm/
Free superheat charts for 38 Ref's online at http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/