"Joseph Meditz"

For the phase angle to approach 90 degrees, all the current must go
via L - so L must have a low impedance value compared to R. Hence a low
L
value.

Tan phi increases dramatically as phi approaches 90 degrees - so it
must be "downstairs" to make L diminish.

Yes Phil, you are right. And boy is my face red! I was careless in
going from XL + R i.,e. a series CKT to a parallel one. When I worked
it out for a || CKT I got your formula of tan phi = R/wL

The darndest thing about this is that when the parallel L R CKT is that
as the angle approaches 90 degrees the small L approaches a wire!



** Way cool observation there - JM.

" Short circuits have a 90 degree lagging phase angle " !!!!

A 1 inch long piece of 1mm dia Cu wire becomes mostly inductive above 3 kHz
!!




............ Phil

Phil Allison wrote:

"Patrick Turner" = utter ****wit
Phil Allison

I don't see why all toroidal cores would have to be GOSS.

** There is no other way to make a continuous strip of thin silicon
steel,
maybe 250 metres long, EXCEPT by rolling it along the direction of the
strip.

They roll huge wide rolls of Si Fe at BHP Sankey and some
ends up as GOSS after annealing.

** Grain orientation is a direct result of the rolling process - fool.

Not fool. I don't argue that rolling does things to the "grain", ie
metallic crystal structure.
So does annealing.

I am not an expert on metals, and nor are you from what you are saying.



The grain structure orients itself in the rolling direction.

So why is there such a huge difference in the U of the materials?



Some gets stamped into E&I and further annealed to make the
GOSS E&I lams which I like, and then there is Lycore150,
which isn't grain oriented, ( NOSS ), and I do't know what processes are
used,
but obviously less because it is half the price of GOSS.

** The subject is toroidal cores.

I have broadened the subject to include other forms of GOSS and NOSS, since
there s a wider context
that is appropriate at least to me, and perhaps to others in the group.

And please don't snip my text when replying so the context will then suit your
private agenda, allowing you to ignore answering the questions I have raised..



I really think you need to be more certain than you are to assume say 95%
of all toroidal cores are in fact GOSS with a high max U of say above
20,000.

** Iron toroidal cores are all GOSS.

That is, at least in my mind, until proven otherwise, an incorrect statement.




If you take plain old NOSS, such as Lycore 150 sold by......

If you used the same material and wound a spiral core with the grain all
the
same way, the effective U is raised.

** Then you have made a GOSS spiral.

But Lycore 150 is not regarded as grain oriented.

It *does have* a silicon content, but it has not been worked as much as GOSS.



How asinine the Turneroid is.

Same with GOSS material like the Sankey stuff which measures 17,000
even in E&I form when assembled.
It too would have a higher U if spiralled.

** Since a GOSS EI core has one limb oriented the wrong way ( the back
of the E stamping) - that is an obvious truism.

Well, despite the alternating diection of the grain in E&I GOSS lams,
the U is able to be 17,000 with the stuff from Sankey in Newcastle, NSW.
It is well annealed and dead flat, and a delight to use, apart from the fact
it is so thin, and stacking a large tranny causes insanity.

The I comes from where the two holes formed where you butt two E towards each
other.
Then the I will reach across an E, with grain in the opposite direction.
But depending on the total amount of working of the iron, Si % and rolling
*and* heat treatments,
the U is very different for E&I lams, and the best E&I lams have only a
marginally
lower U than a toroid made using the same material.

You said the U would be raised 10 to 15 times more than where GOSS E&I material
is used.
Well if that were true, E&I that I use with U = 17,000 would be perhaps
170,000 where used in a toroid core.
Plainly you are quite wrong.

I suggest to know, you better look at the way they actually make the darn
stuff.

It isn't of great concern to me though because I don't want a U of 170,000
because it would probably saturate all too easily with a small DC imbalance
in a PP core.

In an SS class A I used a an OPT, see
http://www.turneraudio.com.au/htmlwe...5050mosfet.htm
I have used C-cores which only measured U = 4,500 max from AEM,
so the amount of grain orientation barely makes it up to today's GOSS;
it was only as good as 1950 grade material.
Anyway, in a PP SS amp with mosfets the sudden onset of saturation below 14 Hz
was
intolerable due to huge current peaks, so I placed one thickness of fine
plastic
from a woolworth's shopping bag to gap the two C-cores used and reduce the U to
just under 2,000.
The current peaks were tamed, and the OPT acted like an inductance rather than
a non linear resistor that had less R as the V went up and the F went down.

The current distortion seen while measuring cores shows this characteristic
with increasing odd order distortion in the current, and this distortion
becomes greater than the
fundemental.

Patrick Turner..







.............. Phil

Ian Iveson wrote:

Your compatriot is gambling that you know even less about
steelmaking than he does. Don't give up. How do they get
non-oriented steel flat, do you think?

I don't think you know as much as Phil or myself.

But at least of the 3 of us, I don't claim to know much at all since I
have never
studied the rolling process or the heat treatments.
If I tried to sneak into the back door of Sankey at Newcastle, in NSW,
to spy on them while they made the E&I lams I like so much then
and only then would I have the full picture.
Nobody making such material is going to be open about how they do it
all;
its private knowledge of a company speciality.


And how would that process be cheaper, do you think?

What makes rolling GOSS more expensive?

What can make steel easier to roll, and at the same time randomise
its structure?

Obviously lots of heat.
But they anneal the GOSS lams after rolling.

Anyway, its clear you don't have a clue exactly how the stuff is made.

Here in Oz I heard they get a virgin girl of 13 years old to
squat on a factory gantry and do a nice long **** down onto the rolling
machine on
a moonlight shift when they do the final roll of the GOSS.

Boy, that makes great steel for OPTs!
It sings with tubes forever after.

Patrick Turner.



cheers, Ian

Joseph Meditz wrote:

For the phase angle to approach 90 degrees, all the current must go
via L -
so L must have a low impedance value compared to R. Hence a low L
value.

Tan phi increases dramatically as phi approaches 90 degrees - so it
must
be "downstairs" to make L diminish.

Yes Phil, you are right. And boy is my face red! I was careless in
going from XL + R i.,e. a series CKT to a parallel one. When I worked
it out for a || CKT I got your formula of tan phi = R/wL

The darndest thing about this is that when the parallel L R CKT is that
as the angle approaches 90 degrees the small L approaches a wire!

Wouldn't a wire have no L, since it was then an R?

Well, it would have some L regardless;
wire is inductive. And it will be the equivalent of
some pure R and L in series.

When the series R component is high compared to the reactive Z of the L,
the phase shift should be near zero degree.

Usually with the primary of a transformer the dcr of the wire is low
compared to the
impedance of the L component, and the parallel R component of the
LR, which is the core, is where the most of the current flow causes power
to be dissipated

So we get nearer to 90d shift where ZL is low compared to parallel R, and
where ZL is high compared to R we get phase shift towards zero.

This power factor thing raises a question.
In a factory using lots of motors, the power factor may be poor, ie,
not all the current needed from the power supplier is converted to power
in the electric motors.
But someone has to pay for the current not used to produce work in a load
to be generated.
I have forgotten exactly what is done, but are not large capacitors used to

improve the power factor?

Patrick Turner.







Joe

"Patrick Turner" = utter criminal ****wit


Phil Allison


** The subject is toroidal cores.

I have broadened the subject......


** Not ever your ****ing prerogative when raising objections to post made
in a particular context.




** Iron toroidal cores are all GOSS.

That is, at least in my mind, until proven otherwise, an incorrect
statement.



** Then go find someone selling non GOSS ones.

Post the evidence here.

Until you can do that you have no case whatever.


Until you can do that - GO AND GET ****ED.





........... Phil

"Patrick Turner"


** **** of you vile AUTISTIC **** !!!!!!!!




.............. Phil

Phil Allison wrote:

"Patrick Turner" = utter criminal ****wit


Phil Allison


** The subject is toroidal cores.

I have broadened the subject......

** Not ever your ****ing prerogative when raising objections to post made
in a particular context.

** Iron toroidal cores are all GOSS.

That is, at least in my mind, until proven otherwise, an incorrect
statement.


** Then go find someone selling non GOSS ones.

Post the evidence here.

Until you can do that you have no case whatever.

Until you can do that - GO AND GET ****ED.

.......... Phil

I will not do anything you command me to do.

Stop acting like a stupid nazi troll.

I reserve the right to post exactly as I like, when I like, and with whatever
content I like at any time.

Starting yet another obscenely titled thread when I sensibly challenge the
validity of what you say
will get you knowhere with anyone, and will make you look like a bigger fool
than ever.

Patrick Turner.

Phil Allison wrote:

"Patrick Turner"

** **** of you vile AUTISTIC **** !!!!!!!!

............. Phil

Notice the wonderful accurate technical information this man brings to
our little news group.

Just not right now though, because I challenged him on a couple of
points.

I really think he should see an exorcist or a psychiatrist.

Patrick Turner.

in article , Patrick Turner at
wrote on 3/1/05 11:05 AM:



Phil Allison wrote:

"Patrick Turner"

** **** of you vile AUTISTIC **** !!!!!!!!

............. Phil

Notice the wonderful accurate technical information this man brings to
our little news group.

Just not right now though, because I challenged him on a couple of
points.

I really think he should see an exorcist or a psychiatrist.

Patrick Turner.


Patrick,

Let me help you to configure a killfilter. Problem solved . . . .

Jon

Jon Yaeger wrote:

in article , Patrick Turner at
wrote on 3/1/05 11:05 AM:



Phil Allison wrote:

"Patrick Turner"

** **** of you vile AUTISTIC **** !!!!!!!!

............. Phil

Notice the wonderful accurate technical information this man brings to
our little news group.

Just not right now though, because I challenged him on a couple of
points.

I really think he should see an exorcist or a psychiatrist.

Patrick Turner.

Patrick,

Let me help you to configure a killfilter. Problem solved . . . .

Jon

I really don't think I would like one Jon.
And afaik, it isn't possible in Nutscrape 4.7.

And while there is no solidarity within the group about who should be
killfiled,
why bother?

I prefer to face whatever comes my way, head right out of sand.

Phil's not much of a problem really, he just gets a bit cranky.
Nobody else got us to think about power factors
and phase shifts.
It turned out there was no reason for me to be worried that
I was making a serious mistake by not fully understanding PF and phi.
I am using a sufficiently conservative design method
to give me exactly what I want.

I'd much prefer that there were more contributions from the many
out there who understand topics like transformer cores et all,
but where are they?
Then if they made more sense than Phil does and were more polite
I'd be able to parley with them instead.
Maybe we'd all learn more.

Maybe they are frightened of being taunted by a demon, but I have never been

frightened by anyone.

Terrific fine warm weather we have here.

I guess the snow drifts have all melted in your neck of the woods?

Patrick Turner.

"Patrick Turner" wrote

I don't think you know as much as Phil or myself.

As if you would know!

But at least of the 3 of us, I don't claim to know much at all
since I
have never
studied the rolling process or the heat treatments.

But you just said you know more than me. And I haven't said I know.

Nobody making such material is going to be open about how they do
it
all;
its private knowledge of a company speciality.

Er...steel-making has been going on for hundreds of years. There is
very little proprietory knowledge involved. That's why the most
developed economies can't compete. There are niches for high-tech
steel but that doesn't include simple GOSS.

I learned a bit about steelmaking at school, and perhaps you did
too. I have made silicon iron, for train brake blocks, but that is
very different from silicon steel.

Obviously lots of heat.

Aha!

But they anneal the GOSS lams after rolling.

Think! There is hot, and there is hotter. Hot relaxes (amongst other
things), but hotter agitates.

Anyway, its clear you don't have a clue exactly how the stuff is
made.

How is it clear? I rarely say what I know, in case you haven't
noticed. I'm here to learn and perhaps help amateurs like me, not to
teach those who try to profit from pretending to know already.

As it happens we don't need to know "exactly"; a general
understanding would be sufficient. Perhaps *you* should know,
considering you charge money for your claimed expertise.

I do know enough to say that steelmaking is very complex when you
get down to the detail, with loads of reversible reactions and
phases and crystal structures that depend of temperature and
pressure. GOSS is a broad enough description to embrace various
compositions and properties.

I also know that hot rolling is cheaper if you have the economy of
scale and you are actually making the steel. Then you don't need to
reheat it. I guess it is rolled at a temperature that keeps it
reasonably stiff between rollers, but plastic when the temperature
and pressure rise between the rollers. Hence it crystalises *after
rolling*.

Cold rolling maintains a crystaline structure throughout.

But I *don't* know if silicon steel *can* be hot-rolled, and I gave
all those books away a long time ago. I guess some metals go from
too hard to too runny too quick, with no squidgy in between. That's
what I was hoping to find out if I baited your mate, but it turns
out he's not worth the effort.

There is another thing I don't know for lack of direct experience or
a decent core model, and that is why a GOSS toroid (now in my
dictionary) should have such a long transition from linear to
saturated.

I gather from a quick search that many toroids are wound from
butt-welded sections rather than continuous strips.

Here in Oz I heard they get a virgin girl of 13 years old to
squat on a factory gantry and do a nice long **** down onto the
rolling
machine on
a moonlight shift when they do the final roll of the GOSS.

They would go to prison for that here, and face a hard time with the
other inmates.

Boy, that makes great steel for OPTs!
It sings with tubes forever after.

Keep you evil child-abuse fantasies for your sad friends.

cheers, Ian

On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 11:13:11 -0500, Jon Yaeger wrote:

snip

Let me help you to configure a killfilter. Problem solved . . . .


Noooooooooo!!!! Don't do that! You'll spoil all the fun! ;-)

We need something to fill in between the techy bits... :-)

--
Mick
(no M$ software on here... :-) )
Web: http://www.nascom.info
Web: http://projectedsound.tk

Patrick Turner wrote:

Jon Yaeger wrote:

Let me help you to configure a killfilter. Problem solved . . . .

I really don't think I would like one Jon.
And afaik, it isn't possible in Nutscrape 4.7.

http://groups.google.com/groups?as_u...cs.Helsinki.FI

--
Oskari Heinonen * University of Helsinki * Department of Computer Science
* http://www.cs.Helsinki.FI/Oskari.Heinonen/

"Patrick Turner"


Phil Allison wrote:

"Patrick Turner" = utter criminal ****wit


Phil Allison


** The subject is toroidal cores.

I have broadened the subject......

** Not ever your ****ing prerogative when raising objections to post
made
in a particular context.

** Iron toroidal cores are all GOSS.

That is, at least in my mind, until proven otherwise, an incorrect
statement.


** Then go find someone selling non GOSS ones.

Post the evidence here.

Until you can do that you have no case whatever.

Until you can do that - GO AND GET ****ED.


.......... Phil


I will not do anything you command me to do.



** The above is what you MUST must do to prove your contention

F U C K W I T !!!!!




............. Phil

"Patrick Turner"


Phil Allison wrote:

"Patrick Turner"

** **** of you vile AUTISTIC **** !!!!!!!!

............. Phil

Notice the wonderful accurate technical information this man brings to
our little news group.


** A more precise description of Pat Tuner is not possible.





............ Phil

"Patrick Turner" wrote

Here in Oz I heard they get a virgin girl of 13 years old to
squat on a factory gantry and do a nice long **** down onto the
rolling machine on
a moonlight shift when they do the final roll of the GOSS.

They used to, but you can't get the 13-year old virgins in Oz any
more...................

--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Ian Iveson wrote:

"Patrick Turner" wrote

I don't think you know as much as Phil or myself.

As if you would know!

But at least of the 3 of us, I don't claim to know much at all
since I
have never
studied the rolling process or the heat treatments.

But you just said you know more than me. And I haven't said I know.

Nobody making such material is going to be open about how they do
it
all;
its private knowledge of a company speciality.

Er...steel-making has been going on for hundreds of years. There is
very little proprietory knowledge involved. That's why the most
developed economies can't compete. There are niches for high-tech
steel but that doesn't include simple GOSS.

I learned a bit about steelmaking at school, and perhaps you did
too. I have made silicon iron, for train brake blocks, but that is
very different from silicon steel.

Obviously lots of heat.

Aha!

But they anneal the GOSS lams after rolling.

Think! There is hot, and there is hotter. Hot relaxes (amongst other
things), but hotter agitates.

Anyway, its clear you don't have a clue exactly how the stuff is
made.

How is it clear? I rarely say what I know, in case you haven't
noticed. I'm here to learn and perhaps help amateurs like me, not to
teach those who try to profit from pretending to know already.

As it happens we don't need to know "exactly"; a general
understanding would be sufficient. Perhaps *you* should know,
considering you charge money for your claimed expertise.

I do know enough to say that steelmaking is very complex when you
get down to the detail, with loads of reversible reactions and
phases and crystal structures that depend of temperature and
pressure. GOSS is a broad enough description to embrace various
compositions and properties.

I also know that hot rolling is cheaper if you have the economy of
scale and you are actually making the steel. Then you don't need to
reheat it. I guess it is rolled at a temperature that keeps it
reasonably stiff between rollers, but plastic when the temperature
and pressure rise between the rollers. Hence it crystalises *after
rolling*.

Cold rolling maintains a crystaline structure throughout.

But I *don't* know if silicon steel *can* be hot-rolled, and I gave
all those books away a long time ago. I guess some metals go from
too hard to too runny too quick, with no squidgy in between. That's
what I was hoping to find out if I baited your mate, but it turns
out he's not worth the effort.

There is another thing I don't know for lack of direct experience or
a decent core model, and that is why a GOSS toroid (now in my
dictionary) should have such a long transition from linear to
saturated.

I gather from a quick search that many toroids are wound from
butt-welded sections rather than continuous strips.

Here in Oz I heard they get a virgin girl of 13 years old to
squat on a factory gantry and do a nice long **** down onto the
rolling
machine on
a moonlight shift when they do the final roll of the GOSS.

They would go to prison for that here, and face a hard time with the
other inmates.

Boy, that makes great steel for OPTs!
It sings with tubes forever after.

Keep you evil child-abuse fantasies for your sad friends.

You have no sense of humour for which the English were famous.

Patrick Turner.



cheers, Ian

I will not do anything you command me to do.

** The above is what you MUST must do to prove your contention

F U C K W I T !!!!!

............ Phil

Little Oz nazi agitators who are possessed by a demon are very unimpressive.

Patrick Turner.

On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 07:31:30 +0000 (UTC), Stewart Pinkerton
wrote:

They used to, but you can't get the 13-year old virgins in Oz any
more...................

Epitaph:

Herein lies the body of my daughter Charlotte,
Born a virgin, died a harlot.
For twelve long years she kept her virginity,
Which is quite a record for this vicinity.


Brian McAllister

Sarasota, Florida

email bkm at oldtech dot net

On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 12:45:12 -0500, Brian McAllister
wrote:

On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 07:31:30 +0000 (UTC), Stewart Pinkerton
wrote:

They used to, but you can't get the 13-year old virgins in Oz any
more...................

Epitaph:

Herein lies the body of my daughter Charlotte,
Born a virgin, died a harlot.
For twelve long years she kept her virginity,
Which is quite a record for this vicinity.

That's a paraphrase of a real epitaph from an old graveyard in
Aberdeen. I actually saw this stone when I was up at Uni the

Here lie the bones of Elizabeth Charlotte
Born a virgin, died a harlot
She was aye a virgin at seventeen
A remarkable thing in Aberdeen

--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 18:34:32 +1100, "Phil Allison"
wrote:

(snip)

*plonk*

On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 03:24:46 +1100, Patrick Turner
wrote:

I didn't make the tests at maximum full voltage levels for either power
or OPTs, but I did use levels more akin to actual levels used.

*plonk* for feeding the troll.

dizzy wrote:

On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 03:24:46 +1100, Patrick Turner
wrote:

I didn't make the tests at maximum full voltage levels for either power
or OPTs, but I did use levels more akin to actual levels used.

*plonk* for feeding the troll.

You are welcome.

You may also miss out on some major discussions.

Have a great day,

Patrick Turner.

After a long study in tendencies, mannerisms, objectives, colloquialism,
etc. I believe P.A. & I.I. are one & the same. Weird?

"Phil Allison" wrote in message
...

"Patrick Turner"


Phil Allison wrote:

"Patrick Turner"

** **** of you vile AUTISTIC **** !!!!!!!!

............. Phil

Notice the wonderful accurate technical information this man brings to
our little news group.


** A more precise description of Pat Tuner is not possible.





........... Phil

"west"



** After long studies in colour, flavour and aroma - " west" believes
that pig's excrement and chocolate are one and the same thing.

Amazing.



............... Phil