Home |
Search |
Today's Posts |
#1
|
|||
|
|||
Power outage
Hope everyone is OK. I lived in NYC for the 1965 and 1977 ones.
Be safe, Don |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
Power outage
Don Cooper wrote: Hope everyone is OK. I lived in NYC for the 1965 and 1977 ones. Be safe, Don Anybody lose anything when the lights went out? --Dale |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
Power outage
i knew this was comming a long time ago. im a electrician. so many people take
power for granted. vk |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
Power outage
"BESTnewEnglandDJ" wrote in message ... i knew this was comming a long time ago. im a electrician. so many people take power for granted. vk I remember something similar happening a few years ago that affected several states in the southwest US ( about a week before the sci-fi move Independence Day came out, prompting me to muse that it might be a real alien invasion or a publicity stunt for the movie ). Supposedly they traced the cause to an oak tree branch touching a power line??? Could you explain how this sort of multi-state outage can even happen? If it's really that fragile of a system it seems like it wouldn't take much of a natural disaster or terrorist strike to put the whole of North America in darkness. Best wishes for a safe return to electric power to everyone affected by the blackout. John L Rice |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
Power outage
AN
BESTnewEnglandDJ wrote: i knew this was comming a long time ago. im a electrician. so many people take power for granted. vk |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
_Brittle Power_ (Was " Power outage")
John L Rice wrote:
snip Could you explain how this sort of multi-state outage can even happen? If it's really that fragile of a system it seems like it wouldn't take much of a natural disaster or terrorist strike to put the whole of North America in darkness. I highly recommend this book: _Brittle Power, Energy Strategy for National Security_ Amory B. Lovins & L. Hunter Lovins Brick House Publishing Company ISBN 0-931790-28-X This first came out in 1982, has a foreword by Admiral Thomas H. Moorer and R. James Woolsey, more typos than The Hulk has warts, but lays out what a mess is our power grid from a security standpoint. I promise that you will find the information startling and appalling, and that contemporary investigation will reveal little has changed except the load on the grid and the amount of power we can feed into it. -- hank alrich * secret mountain audio recording * music production * sound reinforcement "If laughter is the best medicine let's take a double dose" |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
Power outage
Bryson wrote: They can't hear you, Don. It's just like Wolf Blitzer's repeated warnings about the dangers of using candles. At least we have archives. Don |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
_Brittle Power_
Jay Kadis wrote:
It didn't even take a UFO this time. And of course, we don't know what did it, but we already know it ain't "terrism". I will now go caress my security blanket. -- ha |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
_Brittle Power_ (Was " Power outage")
I spent about five years working for a power company, and my father
spent his entire career at one, so I have a slightly different view than some... the great blackout in the winter of 1965 was caused by a transmission line sagging further than expected under an extremely heavy power load. What should have been a simple outage in a rural area tripped systems connected to the affected area, and we ended up with a great example of the good old dominoe effectG. Since that time a great deal has been done to try to minimize the possibility of a repeat, believe it or not! But then came public sentiment against both new generation facilities and new transmission facilities... all the while demand for power was increasing. The company I worked for had several "mine mouth" coal fired plants, located about as far from civilization as you could want. They also owned an infamous nuclear plant located more or less in the heart of a populated area. And they owned a lot of transmission lines. When the company pointed out that they needed either more plants or more transmission lines the public was quite clear... they didn't want that stuff in their back yards... but of course they still wanted more power. Not entirely unlike the situation where people want tax cuts and more services! What frightened me though, was the effect all of this had on the public utility management. The first effect was that the folks who had come up through the ranks started to lose most of their influence. While once upon a time the officers of a power company had power company experience, all of the sudden the companies were looking outside their industry for leaders. And while this is not always a bad idea, new blood can bring in new ideas, in this case the new ideas didn't really fall into line with the charter for a public utility. (The fact that this was all in preparation for the unregulated power industry was really lost on most of us... we simply could not imagine that such a thing would come to pass... ah hindsight!) But the really scary part was the change in attitude amongst the midddle management team that really ran the day to day operations. When I started the predominant attitude was that they were there to guarantee that everyone had an abundance of clean, safe power. As time passed they seemed to lose sight of this. I remember very clearly the director of dispatch, who basically controls the grid, grumbling one day about public opinion... we were in the middle of a pretty big heat wave, and we were instructing out industrial customers to shed their loads, and he pointed out that the best thing that could happen was rolling black-outs, because then maybe the public would get the message. This represented a 180 degress change for him. Just the previous winter, when we were fighting overloads during a cold streak (cold weather was always a bigger problem than hot weather), this guy spent about 36 hours straight through in the dispatch center with the transmission and distribution engineers figuring out ways to manage the load so that there were no outages. The T&D guys worked in shifts, but the dispatch boss left the room only for potty breaks. It was, in his mind, his job to protect the grid. And he did. He retired not to long after his outburst, his heart just wasn't in it. And while he was replaced by an engineer he "groomed", the writing was on the wall. The power grid is a truly amazing contraption... if you work with it you can not help but marvel at it as you pass under transmission lines. But it was built without a lot of thought to securing it, because when it was built we still believed that terrorists would never act on our soil. It will be a huge task to secure it, so the industry spends most of it's security efforts making sure things like yesterdays cascading blackout can't happen. Clearly they have a little work left to do. And it isn't because they don't try... Niagra Mohawk, where a lot of fingers are pointed right now, was one of the most state of the art operations in the country when I worked in the industry. That was a long time ago now, so I don't know what impact the changes in the industry have had on them, but they weren't slouches. Finally, the system that protects the grids did not fail completely. The group that manages the grid in Pennsylvania was able to halt the cascading effect at their borders, which is a good sign. LeBaron & Alrich wrote: John L Rice wrote: snip Could you explain how this sort of multi-state outage can even happen? If it's really that fragile of a system it seems like it wouldn't take much of a natural disaster or terrorist strike to put the whole of North America in darkness. I highly recommend this book: _Brittle Power, Energy Strategy for National Security_ Amory B. Lovins & L. Hunter Lovins Brick House Publishing Company ISBN 0-931790-28-X This first came out in 1982, has a foreword by Admiral Thomas H. Moorer and R. James Woolsey, more typos than The Hulk has warts, but lays out what a mess is our power grid from a security standpoint. I promise that you will find the information startling and appalling, and that contemporary investigation will reveal little has changed except the load on the grid and the amount of power we can feed into it. |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
_Brittle Power_ (Was " Power outage")
Bill Thompson wrote:
I spent about five years working for a power company, and my father spent his entire career at one --snip excellent recap of the situation then and now -- Change a few words here and there and you have another accurate narrative about the telecom 'grid' and how it and its management have changed. Thanks... |
#11
|
|||
|
|||
Power outage
John L Rice wrote: "BESTnewEnglandDJ" wrote in message ... i knew this was comming a long time ago. im a electrician. so many people take power for granted. vk I remember something similar happening a few years ago that affected several states in the southwest US ( about a week before the sci-fi move Independence Day came out, prompting me to muse that it might be a real alien invasion or a publicity stunt for the movie ). Supposedly they traced the cause to an oak tree branch touching a power line??? Could you explain how this sort of multi-state outage can even happen? If it's really that fragile of a system it seems like it wouldn't take much of a natural disaster or terrorist strike to put the whole of North America in darkness. Best wishes for a safe return to electric power to everyone affected by the blackout. John L Rice Whatever caused this particular outage. ( It will be something stupid, like a lightning strike on a transmission line, or an failed component in a generator plant. ) The root cause it the huge amount of power we use in urban society, and the immense distances that the power has to travel from generator to consumer. There is very little margin, and the huge costs of building more generator plants, transmission lines, etc. especially in these days of NIMBY and the eco-luddites, work against the power companies building spare capacity. --Dale ( Hmmmm.... NIMBY and the eco-luddites. Sounds like a bad band name. ) |
#12
|
|||
|
|||
_Brittle Power_
|
#13
|
|||
|
|||
Power outage
Could you explain how this sort of multi-state outage can even happen? If
it's really that fragile of a system it seems like it wouldn't take much of a natural disaster or terrorist strike to put the whole of North America in darkness. PRI's 'Marketplace', an avowedly pro-business syndicated radio show, pretty squarely laid the blame on utility deregulation today. They say the move away from smaller independent local municipal-run utilities toward big conglomerate for-profit energy providers has significantly weakened the robustness of the infrastructure. Check out this morning's show for a better nuts & bolts explanation. Scott Fraser |
#14
|
|||
|
|||
Power outage
|
#15
|
|||
|
|||
_Brittle Power_ (Was " Power outage")
Hi Kurt,
Sadly I am all to well aware of that. I worked on the fringe of the Telco industry for 12 years, and watched what was once a truly amazing structure crumble! The real crime though, imnoso, was the loss of Bell Labs. That was so shortsighted as to be criminal! Bill Kurt Albershardt wrote: Bill Thompson wrote: I spent about five years working for a power company, and my father spent his entire career at one --snip excellent recap of the situation then and now -- Change a few words here and there and you have another accurate narrative about the telecom 'grid' and how it and its management have changed. Thanks... |
#16
|
|||
|
|||
Power outage
especially in these days of NIMBY
and the eco-luddites, More cluelessness blaming the environmentally aware. The truth is that the "eco-luddites" have maintained all along that the cure for this is small decentralized local power generating ability through alternative sources. Scott Fraser |
#17
|
|||
|
|||
Power outage
ScotFraser wrote:
especially in these days of NIMBY and the eco-luddites More cluelessness blaming the environmentally aware. The truth is that the "eco-luddites" have maintained all along that the cure for this is small decentralized local power generating ability through alternative sources. The utilities like the idea of distributed generation, too--but in their version the distributed generators live in your neighborhood but are still owned by the utility. Read up a bit on the laundry list of dirty tricks and backroom deals the utilities have pulled (and continue to pull) with net metering. IOUs have caused a world of grief over the past couple of decades. Anyone else notice that the municipal utilities were suffering a bit less during all the CA power shenanigans awhile back? LADWP and SMUD customers were the lucky ones. |
#18
|
|||
|
|||
Power outage
ScotFraser wrote:
especially in these days of NIMBY and the eco-luddites, More cluelessness blaming the environmentally aware. The truth is that the "eco-luddites" have maintained all along that the cure for this is small decentralized local power generating ability through alternative sources. And reduction of demand. We're not far from the point at which more cannot be delivered. We better start thinking about this. -- hank alrich * secret mountain audio recording * music production * sound reinforcement "If laughter is the best medicine let's take a double dose" |
#19
|
|||
|
|||
Power outage
ScotFraser wrote: especially in these days of NIMBY and the eco-luddites, More cluelessness blaming the environmentally aware. The truth is that the "eco-luddites" have maintained all along that the cure for this is small decentralized local power generating ability through alternative sources. Scott Fraser Well, the most recent ongoing example of NIMBY eco-luddites up here around Boston is the opposition to the wind farm offshore of Martha's Vineyard. Totally clean power, Built on a barely submerged hazard to navigation several miles away from the island. The real reason is that the folks on the island feel that the towers will spoil their view, and since they have money, lawyers, and the liberal left, they are trotting out all the usual eco-luddite mantras, slightly snipped and molded to fit this particular situation. *feh* For an older local example, the Seabrook, NH power plant. Direct legal costs added up to something like 15% of the total plant cost. Indirect costs, basically rebuilding things to meet the latest court order, and the costs of stopping and starting construction dozens of times made the plant construction cost more than double. Most of these people mean well, and have a surface understanding of some of the issues, but their understanding is systematically been propagandized by extremists. Scientific thought and logical thinking get replaced by sound bites and articles of faith that are never questioned by the faithful. ANyone who questions these base beliefs is labeled an "industry shill" and driven away by the horde with fingers in their ears chanting their slogans. Joe Stalin had a name for these kinds of folks. He called them useful idiots. --Dale |
#20
|
|||
|
|||
_Brittle Power_ (Was " Power outage")
In article Bill Thompson
writes: Jay Kadis wrote: In article Bill Thompson writes: Hi Kurt, Sadly I am all to well aware of that. I worked on the fringe of the Telco industry for 12 years, and watched what was once a truly amazing structure crumble! The real crime though, imnoso, was the loss of Bell Labs. That was so shortsighted as to be criminal! Bill Bell Labs loss was our gain: Max Mathews and John Pierce. Indeed... the Max's and John's of the world were going to find a home... but where will the next Max or John come from??? Bill Maybe from CCRMA. But it's getting more difficult to be a Renaissance man like they were. -Jay -- x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ----x x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x x-------- http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/~jay/ ----------x |
#21
|
|||
|
|||
Power outage
LeBaron & Alrich wrote:
ScotFraser wrote: especially in these days of NIMBY and the eco-luddites, More cluelessness blaming the environmentally aware. The truth is that the "eco-luddites" have maintained all along that the cure for this is small decentralized local power generating ability through alternative sources. And reduction of demand. We're not far from the point at which more cannot be delivered. We better start thinking about this. -- hank alrich * secret mountain audio recording * music production * sound reinforcement "If laughter is the best medicine let's take a double dose" Yeah, but this does not show up in price at all. Until we get it in the wallet, there is no problem. And I'm still unsure if there really is one or not - it's too hot a potato to get good stats about. -- Les Cargill |
#22
|
|||
|
|||
Power outage
|
#23
|
|||
|
|||
Power outage
LeBaron & Alrich wrote:
And reduction of demand. We're not far from the point at which more cannot be delivered. We better start thinking about this. Well, we have to do something... either increase supply, decrease demand, or accept the consequences of burying our heads in the sand. Sadly there are a lot of folks out claiming there is no problem other than the greedy capitalists trying to wring every last cent from the system. When power generation was regulated there weren't a lot of folks trying to wring anything out of it... the stocks were generally considered safe for widows and orphans! And, if additional generation was required to meet demand the utility was required to find a way to meet that demand. Now that the generators are no longer regulated they don't have to build a plant until they know it will make a profit, and a big one at that! Meanwhile, the utilities still have tariffs defining how they will deliver power to homes and businesses in a safe and cost effective manner. Go figure... |
#24
|
|||
|
|||
Power outage
Dale Farmer wrote:
Well, the most recent ongoing example of NIMBY eco-luddites up here around Boston is the opposition to the wind farm offshore of Martha's Vineyard. Totally clean power, Built on a barely submerged hazard to navigation several miles away from the island. The real reason is that the folks on the island feel that the towers will spoil their view, and since they have money, lawyers, and the liberal left, they are trotting out all the usual eco-luddite mantras, slightly snipped and molded to fit this particular situation. *feh* I hadn't heard that tale... sheesh! For an older local example, the Seabrook, NH power plant. Direct legal costs added up to something like 15% of the total plant cost. Indirect costs, basically rebuilding things to meet the latest court order, and the costs of stopping and starting construction dozens of times made the plant construction cost more than double. That one however is in the textbooks... along with most nuclear plants built towards the end of the era. Most of these people mean well, and have a surface understanding of some of the issues, but their understanding is systematically been propagandized by extremists. Scientific thought and logical thinking get replaced by sound bites and articles of faith that are never questioned by the faithful. ANyone who questions these base beliefs is labeled an "industry shill" and driven away by the horde with fingers in their ears chanting their slogans. Joe Stalin had a name for these kinds of folks. He called them useful idiots. A very balanced observation... doesn't really belong in a thread about public policy and energy now does itG??? Bill |
#25
|
|||
|
|||
_Brittle Power_ (Was " Power outage")
Jay Kadis wrote:
Maybe from CCRMA. But it's getting more difficult to be a Renaissance man like they were. Well from what I know about CCRMA, they do a real good job of fostering a research environment... but they'll never have the bucks that Bell Labs had. Bell Labs were the last of the research for the sake of research facilities in this country, and they accomplished quite a bit. It is true that our long distance charges funded part of that research (maybe even a large part as is often argued), but they also made a fair penny licensing inventions that they didn't need, and they built a marvelous telecommunications infrastructure in the process... not to mention advances in sound for film which eventually led to our own favorite industries. I think society as a whole benefitted much more than the cost of long distance service under the evil monopoly! |
#26
|
|||
|
|||
Power outage
"Don Cooper" wrote in message
Hope everyone is OK. I lived in NYC for the 1965 and 1977 ones. It was mostly a lark. We had running water for the duration. It was an unofficial day off. Traffic was very light, and most people just chilled, However, it reflects very poorly on the management of our power grids. Once upon a time I worked for a large gas utility, so no amount of incompetence from utility managers can surprise me. |
#27
|
|||
|
|||
Power outage
LeBaron & Alrich wrote: More cluelessness blaming the environmentally aware. The truth is that the "eco-luddites" have maintained all along that the cure for this is small decentralized local power generating ability through alternative sources. And reduction of demand. We're not far from the point at which more cannot be delivered. We better start thinking about this. My brother's solar powered house in Poway with his electric car is looking a little smarter these days. He is probably laughing about all this. The oil companies bought the patents for the batteries for the electric cars. You know they stopped making the electric cars? I wonder if Arnoold thinks much about this as he is riding high up in his SUV? |
#28
|
|||
|
|||
Power outage
|
#29
|
|||
|
|||
Power outage
Kurt Albershardt wrote: Anyone else notice that the municipal utilities were suffering a bit less during all the CA power shenanigans awhile back? LADWP and SMUD customers were the lucky ones. Well then, vote for Arnoold, that's it, umm, "Schwarzenegger and Lay Independent candidate Arianna Huffington has criticized Schwarzenegger for meeting with former Enron Chairman Kenneth Lay in May 2001 in Beverly Hills. The Los Angeles Times reported at the time that Lay gave Schwarzenegger and other business and political leaders a four-page plan detailing his solution to California's energy crisis. "I don't remember the meeting," Schwarzenegger said Thursday." How conveeen-ient, he don't remember. http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/08/15/davis.recall.ap/index.html |
#30
|
|||
|
|||
Power outage
Rob Adelman wrote: Dale Farmer wrote: the folks on the island feel that the towers will spoil their view, and since they have money, lawyers, and the liberal left, they are trotting out all the usual eco-luddite mantras, slightly snipped and molded to fit this Huh? You are blaming the liberal left? No, the liberal left is one of the tools on the NIMBYites in this case. --Dale |
#31
|
|||
|
|||
_Brittle Power_ (Was " Power outage")
"LeBaron & Alrich" wrote in message .. . John L Rice wrote: snip Could you explain how this sort of multi-state outage can even happen? If it's really that fragile of a system it seems like it wouldn't take much of a natural disaster or terrorist strike to put the whole of North America in darkness. I highly recommend this book: _Brittle Power, Energy Strategy for National Security_ Amory B. Lovins & L. Hunter Lovins Brick House Publishing Company ISBN 0-931790-28-X This first came out in 1982, has a foreword by Admiral Thomas H. Moorer and R. James Woolsey, more typos than The Hulk has warts, but lays out what a mess is our power grid from a security standpoint. I promise that you will find the information startling and appalling, and that contemporary investigation will reveal little has changed except the load on the grid and the amount of power we can feed into it. -- hank alrich * secret mountain audio recording * music production * sound reinforcement "If laughter is the best medicine let's take a double dose" Thank you Hank. John L Rice |
#32
|
|||
|
|||
_Brittle Power_ (Was " Power outage")
|
#33
|
|||
|
|||
Power outage
I dare all the sheep to elect Dubya again in '04.
"again"? Huh? |
#34
|
|||
|
|||
Power outage
Dale Farmer wrote:
Anybody lose anything when the lights went out? A fuse blew in one VCR; that's all here. Thanks for asking. I'd just finished buying some equipment in lower Manhattan and was waiting for the subway back home to Brooklyn when the power went out. The station was evacuated in near-total darkness. All we knew at the time was that there was a power outage in the lower Manhattan subway. After it became clear that the problem was more widespread and would not be solved very soon, I joined tens of thousands of other people walking across the Brooklyn Bridge (with my 30+ pounds of equipment and a bottle of water). It was a rather festive time, actually. People sat out on the steps of their buildings and met and talked with one another. I'd say, there should be one evening a month with no television. It's amazing the degree to which our particular means of transportation and communication isolate people and set us against each another. --best regards |
#35
|
|||
|
|||
Power outage
In article ,
Dale Farmer wrote: Whatever caused this particular outage. ( It will be something stupid, like a lightning strike on a transmission line, or an failed component in a generator plant. ) The root cause it the huge amount of power we use in urban society, and the immense distances that the power has to travel from generator to consumer. There is very little margin, and the huge costs of building more generator plants, transmission lines, etc. especially in these days of NIMBY and the eco-luddites, work against the power companies building spare capacity. --Dale ( Hmmmm.... NIMBY and the eco-luddites. Sounds like a bad band name. ) Not quite. It will be the combination of at least two "something stupids". You don't drop 61 GW of load on a single contingency. |
#36
|
|||
|
|||
Power outage traced to dim bulb in White House
rec.audio.pro
Just keep repeating that to yourself. |
#37
|
|||
|
|||
Power outage
Well, the most recent ongoing example of NIMBY eco-luddites up here
around Boston is the opposition to the wind farm offshore of Martha's Vineyard. Totally clean power, Built on a barely submerged hazard to navigation several miles away from the island. The real reason is that the folks on the island feel that the towers will spoil their view, and since they have money, lawyers, and the liberal left, they are trotting out all the usual eco-luddite mantras, slightly snipped and molded to fit this particular situation. What any of these rich folks opposing wind power have to do with what you label the liberal left is beyond me. Scott Fraser |
#38
|
|||
|
|||
Power outage
Bill Thompson wrote:
there are two sides to every coin... co-generation, the name commonly applied to folks trying to sell a little energy back to the grid suffers from one glaring problem... these small providers are not required to be on-line, they aren't even required to let the utility know when they are going off-line (at least that's how it works in PA.) But it has to be this way because the loss of generation, even from a small wind farm or hydro plant can cause disturbances in the grid. You'd be surprised at just how little it takes to shift from stable to unstable operation, especially under high load conditions. It doesn't take much. When the folks operating small generation sources agree to play under the same rules that the utilities have to play under I think arguments against co-generation will decrease. Wouldn't it make more sense to encourage a much larger number of co-generators so that their individual starts and stops would be averaged out by all the others? With enough small generators, we wouldn't BE running close to capacity all the time and if those generators were distributed with the population it would solve a lot of our transmission difficulties and inefficiencies at the same time. This doesn'y happen with a few dozen co-generators, but it could happen with a few THOUSAND co-generators in any given area. Am I wrong? ulysses |
#39
|
|||
|
|||
Power outage
Darrell Klein wrote:
I dare all the sheep to elect Dubya again in '04. "again"? Huh? Right, as the bumper stickers say, "Let's not elect him in '04 either." ulysses |
#40
|
|||
|
|||
Power outage
I think it's time for us (people) to start looking at how we can solve
the problem for ourselves rather than trying to get industry to regulate itself, or worse yet get government to do it. I can think of all sorts of ways I can reduce my consumption of electricity, and I can also think of plenty of ways to get the electricity I do use from someplace other than "The Grid." I think I've changed my mind about leaving the studio equipment on all the time. This is as good a reason as anything else. I've gotten a lot better about shutting down my computer when I'm not using it, too. I've done the math and now I know how much cheaper it is to use those small fluorescents as a replacement for incandescent bulbs. They're NOT noisy OR ugly. The only catch is the extra junk you throw in the trash when they burn out. But they last a year instead of a month. There have been some HUGE advancements in efficiency in recent years, including lighting, batteries, computers, displays (TFTs use WAY less power than CRTs), refrigeration, etc. We should be able to decrease rather than increase our consumption, if we actually make an effort. What's I'd LIKE to see is people using their treadmills and excercise bikes and Nordik-Traks to charge their laptops or even run their refrigerators. I'd like to see a gigantic flywheel in everybody's garage that would stor energy from every available source: Wind, solar, childrens' hyperactivity, wind-up cranks, weights on chains (like a big cuckoo clock) etc. I bet that with the right equipment, the average home could be powered by the family living in it. This sort of thing would be easy to phase in incrementally because you can always use a little mains power on the side. Of course, it's 97 degrees outside and I do have the AC cranked up today. ulysses Rob Adelman wrote: LeBaron & Alrich wrote: More cluelessness blaming the environmentally aware. The truth is that the "eco-luddites" have maintained all along that the cure for this is small decentralized local power generating ability through alternative sources. And reduction of demand. We're not far from the point at which more cannot be delivered. We better start thinking about this. My brother's solar powered house in Poway with his electric car is looking a little smarter these days. He is probably laughing about all this. The oil companies bought the patents for the batteries for the electric cars. You know they stopped making the electric cars? I wonder if Arnoold thinks much about this as he is riding high up in his SUV? |
Reply |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Forum | |||
System warm-up | Audio Opinions | |||
rec.audio.car FAQ (Part 2/5) | Car Audio | |||
rec.audio.car FAQ (Part 1/5) | Car Audio | |||
FS: SOUNDSTREAM CLOSEOUTS AND MORE!! | Car Audio | |||
old solid state circa 70-80's` | Audio Opinions |