I have bought a few classical CD's over the years and have always been
underwhelmed at the sonic quality of piano compared to say Sarah
McLachlan's "Angel". Classical piano recordings always seem to sound
thin with lot's of room noise. Can anyone point me in the direction of
a great "sonically" Classical Piano recording?

Thanks

Bri

Piano is perhaps the most difficult instrument to reproduce properly.
It takes on the playback end, a large and dynamic speaker (dynamic as
in performance, not necessarily design) and amplifier power capable to
deliver the dynamics. A load of other variables also apply as the
entire chain from recording to playback is complex, but the sheer
scale of the instrument and lack of any mixing techniques make the
loudspeaker the weakest link in the playback system. It is an entirely
different experience to hear the same piano recording from a large
pair of Tannoys to that of a small set of Paradigms for example.
- Bill
www.uptownaudio.com
Roanoke VA
(540) 343-1250

"Brian Patterson" wrote in message
...
I have bought a few classical CD's over the years and have always
been
underwhelmed at the sonic quality of piano compared to say Sarah
McLachlan's "Angel". Classical piano recordings always seem to sound
thin with lot's of room noise. Can anyone point me in the direction
of
a great "sonically" Classical Piano recording?

Thanks

Bri

"Brian Patterson" wrote in message
...
I have bought a few classical CD's over the years and have always
been
underwhelmed at the sonic quality of piano compared to say Sarah
McLachlan's "Angel". Classical piano recordings always seem to sound
thin with lot's of room noise. Can anyone point me in the direction
of
a great "sonically" Classical Piano recording?

Whoever does the piano recording for Hyperion seems to have the
technique down pat. If you don't find these to your taste, I suspect
that your preferences are not shared by the majority of listeners.

Cheers,

Norm Strong

"Brian Patterson" wrote in message
...
I have bought a few classical CD's over the years and have always been
underwhelmed at the sonic quality of piano compared to say Sarah
McLachlan's "Angel". Classical piano recordings always seem to sound
thin with lot's of room noise. Can anyone point me in the direction of
a great "sonically" Classical Piano recording?

Thanks

Bri

What you're hearing is a difference in typical recording techniques for
classical vs. non-classical. Classical piano (as is the case with MOST
classical recordings of any kind) is typically recorded with the aim being
to reproduce what the listener would hear in the concert hall/performance
space. That means mid-distant miking which picks up the instrument as a
whole unit as well as the acoustics of the space. On the other hand, most
popular recordings are made in a studio, and not meant to be a
representation of a particular instrument in a particular space, but a
"target sound" that represents what the artist and producer want to hear and
what will fit into the mix. Usually that means close-miking the intrument
with multiple mikes (in order to cover the entire instrument evenly), and
that means you hear a lot more of the mechanicals of the piano--the pedals,
the hammers, etc. In attempting to acheive "that sound", effects are used
which would be completely out of place in a classical recording, and Sarah
McLachlan uses more (or at least more obvious) effects than most. One
tecnique isn't "better' than the other, just more appropriate for a given
situation. I don't know of any classical recordings in the style that
you're looking for, but I'm sure they must be out there. The first thing
that comes to mind is the George Winston new age music recordings from the
'80's, but I'm guessing that's not really what you're after.

Bill Balmer

On 1/4/04 11:40 AM, in article , "Brian
Patterson" wrote:

I have bought a few classical CD's over the years and have always been
underwhelmed at the sonic quality of piano compared to say Sarah
McLachlan's "Angel". Classical piano recordings always seem to sound
thin with lot's of room noise. Can anyone point me in the direction of
a great "sonically" Classical Piano recording?

First, make sure you have enough high and low end to replicate the sound
correctly - and it may also boil down to personal taste.

Pop music is usually designed to sound "good" rather than "accurate" - and
can suffer from terrible compression, especially lately - but can "sound"
pretty good on margibnal equipment (I don't want to assume your equipment is
marginal in this case, just an observation).

"Brian Patterson" wrote in message
...
I have bought a few classical CD's over the years and have always been
underwhelmed at the sonic quality of piano compared to say Sarah
McLachlan's "Angel". Classical piano recordings always seem to sound
thin with lot's of room noise. Can anyone point me in the direction of
a great "sonically" Classical Piano recording?

Thanks

Bri

Here are a couple of good sounding (to my ear/on my system/in my listening
environment) piano recordings:

George Winston
Linus & Lucy -- The Music of Vince Guaraldi
Windham Hill 04934 11184-2r

Roberto Szidon
Hungarian Rhapsodies -- Franz Liszt
Deutsche Grammophon 423 925-2

Bromo wrote:

On 1/4/04 11:40 AM, in article , "Brian
Patterson" wrote:


I have bought a few classical CD's over the years and have always been
underwhelmed at the sonic quality of piano compared to say Sarah
McLachlan's "Angel". Classical piano recordings always seem to sound
thin with lot's of room noise. Can anyone point me in the direction of
a great "sonically" Classical Piano recording?


First, make sure you have enough high and low end to replicate the sound
correctly - and it may also boil down to personal taste.

Pop music is usually designed to sound "good" rather than "accurate" - and
can suffer from terrible compression, especially lately - but can "sound"
pretty good on margibnal equipment (I don't want to assume your equipment is
marginal in this case, just an observation).

I agree. The most obvious example of this is Enya. There is a lot of
sound processing involved to get her to sound that way. Her voice isn't
half as good by itself.

Now, most rock and pop does the exact same thing - makes it sound better
and fuller, but it's mostly computers and electronic effects. They also
tend to make them louder in the mixing.

As for underwhelmed, what type of speakers and system do you have?
With good speakers, almost everything sounds amazing if the engineer
(moneky in the booth is more common, though) does their job.

On 4 Jan 2004 16:40:29 GMT, (Brian Patterson)
wrote:

I have bought a few classical CD's over the years and have always been
underwhelmed at the sonic quality of piano compared to say Sarah
McLachlan's "Angel". Classical piano recordings always seem to sound
thin with lot's of room noise. Can anyone point me in the direction of
a great "sonically" Classical Piano recording?

I have no idea who Sarah McLachlan is but you could look for almost
any piano recording engineered by E. Alan Silver or Tony Faulkner.

Kal

Uptown Audio wrote:

Piano is perhaps the most difficult instrument to reproduce properly.
It takes on the playback end, a large and dynamic speaker (dynamic as
in performance, not necessarily design) and amplifier power capable to
deliver the dynamics. A load of other variables also apply as the
entire chain from recording to playback is complex, but the sheer
scale of the instrument and lack of any mixing techniques make the
loudspeaker the weakest link in the playback system. It is an entirely
different experience to hear the same piano recording from a large
pair of Tannoys to that of a small set of Paradigms for example.

He should look at a pair of large Magnepans. Piano and vocals are
two things the speaker seems to excel at. Pop and rock - eh - not
quite as much.

I agree. The most obvious example of this is Enya. There is a lot of
sound processing involved to get her to sound that way. Her voice isn't
half as good by itself.

I quite disagree on both points. Her voice sounds great to me on the parts that
only use one track of her voice and, to my knowledge, there isn't any
processing of her voice at all except some added reverb on some of the single
voice tracks which is neither excessive nor unusual in recordings of pop music.

"Brian Patterson" wrote in message
...
I have bought a few classical CD's over the years and have always been
underwhelmed at the sonic quality of piano compared to say Sarah
McLachlan's "Angel". Classical piano recordings always seem to sound
thin with lot's of room noise. Can anyone point me in the direction of
a great "sonically" Classical Piano recording?

Check out any of the Dorian Recordings recordings of the Ames Quartet. For
that matter, check out all of the Dorian catalog. I don't believe there are
any better sounding recordings to be found.

N.B. I just noticed on Dorian's website (www.dorian.com) that they just
announced the acquisition of Reference Recordings. I don't know whether
consolidation among independent, sound quality conscious labels is a good
thing or not, but it certainly bears watching.

S888Wheel wrote:

I agree. The most obvious example of this is Enya. There is a lot of
sound processing involved to get her to sound that way. Her voice isn't
half as good by itself.


I quite disagree on both points. Her voice sounds great to me on the parts that
only use one track of her voice and, to my knowledge, there isn't any
processing of her voice at all except some added reverb on some of the single
voice tracks which is neither excessive nor unusual in recordings of pop music.

But those effects are there. If you listened to the same piece acapella
and un-processed, it would sound much more flat and lifeless. The
equivalent in piano would be a heavily EQd jazz piano(with pickups in
in action) versus a piano in a concert hall and mics 20 ft out.

"S888Wheel" wrote in message
...
I agree. The most obvious example of this is Enya. There is a lot of
sound processing involved to get her to sound that way. Her voice isn't
half as good by itself.

I quite disagree on both points. Her voice sounds great to me on the parts
that
only use one track of her voice and, to my knowledge, there isn't any
processing of her voice at all except some added reverb on some of the
single
voice tracks which is neither excessive nor unusual in recordings of pop
music.

Choice of preamp may be critical. Nowadays, their are preamps made known as
"voice" preamps (because that is their primary use) that have compressors,
equalizers, harmonic "optimizers", and other tools built in so that the raw
voice never actually hits the medium..the processing is all done in the take
itself. And then of course engineers argue endlessly over microphones,
trying to match mic to voice to get the desired effect...not necessarily (or
even mostly) the actual sound of the voice.

Good Explanation, Bill!

Telarc and occaisionally Cheskey Records tend to do classical recordings
with mixed micing techniques. I have a copy of Murray Perahia's Bach
Goldberg Variations from Sony Classical. It sounds very good and I believe
they also mix close mic'd and far field together. Murray kicks ass on the
performance as well.

If jazz will do, nothing beats Diana Krall's piano sound. The 20 foot wide
piano soundstage is a bit fake but who cares when it sounds that good.

Wessel

"Cossie" wrote in message
news:LU_Jb.125072$VB2.371566@attbi_s51...
"Brian Patterson" wrote in message
...
I have bought a few classical CD's over the years and have always been
underwhelmed at the sonic quality of piano compared to say Sarah
McLachlan's "Angel". Classical piano recordings always seem to sound
thin with lot's of room noise. Can anyone point me in the direction of
a great "sonically" Classical Piano recording?

Thanks

Bri

What you're hearing is a difference in typical recording techniques for
classical vs. non-classical. Classical piano (as is the case with MOST
classical recordings of any kind) is typically recorded with the aim being
to reproduce what the listener would hear in the concert hall/performance
space. That means mid-distant miking which picks up the instrument as a
whole unit as well as the acoustics of the space. On the other hand, most
popular recordings are made in a studio, and not meant to be a
representation of a particular instrument in a particular space, but a
"target sound" that represents what the artist and producer want to hear
and
what will fit into the mix. Usually that means close-miking the intrument
with multiple mikes (in order to cover the entire instrument evenly), and
that means you hear a lot more of the mechanicals of the piano--the
pedals,
the hammers, etc. In attempting to acheive "that sound", effects are used
which would be completely out of place in a classical recording, and Sarah
McLachlan uses more (or at least more obvious) effects than most. One
tecnique isn't "better' than the other, just more appropriate for a given
situation. I don't know of any classical recordings in the style that
you're looking for, but I'm sure they must be out there. The first thing
that comes to mind is the George Winston new age music recordings from the
'80's, but I'm guessing that's not really what you're after.

Bill Balmer

"Wessel Dirksen" wrote in message
...
Good Explanation, Bill!

Telarc and occaisionally Cheskey Records tend to do classical recordings
with mixed micing techniques. I have a copy of Murray Perahia's Bach
Goldberg Variations from Sony Classical. It sounds very good and I believe
they also mix close mic'd and far field together. Murray kicks ass on the
performance as well.

If jazz will do, nothing beats Diana Krall's piano sound. The 20 foot wide
piano soundstage is a bit fake but who cares when it sounds that good.

Wessel

Different perspectives are always interesting. The thing that bothers me
most about piano recordings is that which you don't care about. A 20 foot
wide piano is totally unnatural by any standard and from my standpoint
defines a bad piano recording.

For some great jazz piano, check out some of Telarc's recent recordings of
Oscar Peterson, SACD or standard. Some great stuff. Good dynamics, tonal
balance and proper perspective. Most importantly, you can tell he's
playing a Bosendorfer and not a Steinway. To hear what a Steinway should
sound like, check out the Dorian recordings that I mentioned earlier in this
thread.

But those effects are there. If you listened to the same piece acapella
and un-processed, it would sound much more flat and lifeless.

Of course. But that is the result of her singing in a small heavily damped
booth. If she were recorded with a piano in a nice reverberant hall she would
hardly sound lifeless and flat. Whether or not you like her music or her
singing, it is technically excellent. It would be wrong to assume her approach
to music production is there to compensate for a lack of ability.

The
equivalent in piano would be a heavily EQd jazz piano(with pickups in
in action) versus a piano in a concert hall and mics 20 ft out.

That is the nature of popular recordings in studios. Again, there is nothing
unusual or excessive in the proccessing of her voice. Artificial reverb is
pretty common. Now if you contrast that with say Paula Abdul who was sued for
royalties by the woman who sang her guide tracks (yes she, like many of today's
popular vocalists hired a singer to sing a guide track for her to follow)
because their voices were synthesized together into one voice. *That* is a lot
of proccessing! I just don't see artificial reverb on a few vocal tracks as "a
lot of proccessing."

"Bruce Abrams" wrote in message
...


Different perspectives are always interesting. The thing that bothers me
most about piano recordings is that which you don't care about. A 20 foot
wide piano is totally unnatural by any standard and from my standpoint
defines a bad piano recording.

It's certainly a bad recording if your want it to sound as it would from
your favored seat in the concert hall. OTOH if your interest is more on the
order if peering inside the pianist's head in an attempt to better
understand what he/her is attempting to say you might want that unnatural
recording. Glenn Gould, an unconventional classical artist in most respects,
understood what a piano should sound like. He also had a great interest in
recordings per se, and must have had a large role in determining how his
recordings would sound. Most of his Sony/Columbia recordings are rather
close in approaching that 20 foot wide piano.
IMHO we are fortunate in having all types of recordings available and a
significant part of the "fun" in listening to those recordings is finding
those which you happen to favor. Over the years I've come to lose interest
in re-creating the live event in my listening room, an impossible task to
begin with and which I no longer feel worthwhile pursuing. Believe it or
not, I've arrived at the point where I favor the 20 foot wide piano as heard
on 6 panel Magneplanar Tympani loudspeakers. It is almost like sitting
inside the piano itself. I don't care to hear what the studio/hall sounds
like and want to get as close as possible to the heart of the music itself,
as if arriving *inside* the composer's/artist's head.

Wessel Dirksen" wrote:
If jazz will do, nothing beats Diana Krall's piano sound. The 20 foot wide
piano soundstage is a bit fake but who cares when it sounds that good.


I use a couple of her cuts as references ("Peel Me a Grape", "I've Got You
Under My Skin") and her piano always sounds life-like to me in both size and
perspective. You must have a really wide room to get 20 foot wide piano image
;-).
Regards,
Mike

"Brian Patterson" wrote in message
...
I have bought a few classical CD's over the years and have always been
underwhelmed at the sonic quality of piano compared to say Sarah
McLachlan's "Angel". Classical piano recordings always seem to sound
thin with lot's of room noise. Can anyone point me in the direction of
a great "sonically" Classical Piano recording?

Thanks

Bri

I just listened to Liszt's two piano concertos on Philips
label- Swiatoslaw Richter on the piano, Kyril Kondrashin conducting
London Symph Orch.
The piano sound is truly spectacular, almost here now. The playing is
wonderful. For someone who "bought a few classical recordings over the
years" Liszt is not only a famous but also a very accessible composer.
If his fireworks do not grab you nothing in the "classical" canon will..
I understand the analogue master was originally made by the
Mercury famous engineering team. As is often( though not always

the case with Philips thedigital remastering is excellent.
Ludovic Mirabel