I was wondering how some of you view this. For example, let's say I can
envision
an entire song in my head but haven't recorded it yet in any form. Is that
visualization still considered a song, assuming the person can envision it
with crystal clarity? Would you consider this a song only AFTER it has been
written down or recorded? Personally, I consider an idea a song if it's
complete,
regardless where it's recorded or written down. I'm asking because I
got into a discussion about this with another fellow recently and his
opinion was that a song is only a song *after* it's been extracted from
your mind and written down or recorded somewhere.

Thanks for your opinion

Is a tree still a tree if no one has ever seen it?

Neil R

"J.C. Scott" wrote in message
...
I was wondering how some of you view this. For example, let's say I can
envision
an entire song in my head but haven't recorded it yet in any form. Is that
visualization still considered a song, assuming the person can envision it
with crystal clarity? Would you consider this a song only AFTER it has
been
written down or recorded? Personally, I consider an idea a song if it's
complete,
regardless where it's recorded or written down. I'm asking because I
got into a discussion about this with another fellow recently and his
opinion was that a song is only a song *after* it's been extracted from
your mind and written down or recorded somewhere.

Thanks for your opinion

"J.C. Scott" wrote ...
I was wondering how some of you view this. For example, let's say I can
envision
an entire song in my head but haven't recorded it yet in any form. Is
that
visualization still considered a song, assuming the person can
envision it
with crystal clarity? Would you consider this a song only AFTER it has
been
written down or recorded? Personally, I consider an idea a song if
it's complete,
regardless where it's recorded or written down. I'm asking because I
got into a discussion about this with another fellow recently and his
opinion was that a song is only a song *after* it's been extracted
from
your mind and written down or recorded somewhere.

Well, for practical/legal purposes, it is only a "song"
when it is "expressed", i.e. recorded or written down.
We already have a legal mess by presuming that we can
judge people by what they may be "thinking". I believe
others have already tried the "I thought of that song first
but never wrote it down" argument. (Unsuccessfully)

Richard Crowley wrote:
"J.C. Scott" wrote ...
I was wondering how some of you view this. For example, let's say I can
envision
an entire song in my head but haven't recorded it yet in any form. Is
that
visualization still considered a song, assuming the person can
envision it
with crystal clarity? Would you consider this a song only AFTER it has
been
written down or recorded? Personally, I consider an idea a song if
it's complete,
regardless where it's recorded or written down. I'm asking because I
got into a discussion about this with another fellow recently and his
opinion was that a song is only a song *after* it's been extracted
from
your mind and written down or recorded somewhere.

Well, for practical/legal purposes, it is only a "song"
when it is "expressed", i.e. recorded or written down.
We already have a legal mess by presuming that we can
judge people by what they may be "thinking". I believe
others have already tried the "I thought of that song first
but never wrote it down" argument. (Unsuccessfully)

If a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it, does it make a
sound?
If a song falls in your head, does anyone else hear it?
Zen is the answer...

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

in the US, to be eligible for copyright protection, a song must exist
in some tangible form:

"WHAT WORKS ARE PROTECTED?
Copyright protects "original works of authorship" that are fixed in a
tangible form of expression. The fixation need not be directly
perceptible so long as it may be communicated with the aid of a machine
or device. Copyrightable works include the following categories:

literary works;
musical works, including any accompanying words
dramatic works, including any accompanying music
pantomimes and choreographic works
pictorial, graphic, and sculptural works
motion pictures and other audiovisual works
sound recordings
architectural works
These categories should be viewed broadly. For example, computer
programs and most "compilations" may be registered as "literary works";
maps and architectural plans may be registered as "pictorial, graphic,
and sculptural works."


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

WHAT IS NOT PROTECTED BY COPYRIGHT?
Several categories of material are generally not eligible for federal
copyright protection. These include among others:

Works that have not been fixed in a tangible form of expression (for
example, choreographic works that have not been notated or recorded, or
improvisational speeches or performances that have not been written or
recorded)

Titles, names, short phrases, and slogans; familiar symbols or designs;
mere variations of typographic ornamentation, lettering, or coloring;
mere listings of ingredients or contents

Ideas, procedures, methods, systems, processes, concepts, principles,
discoveries, or devices, as distinguished from a description,
explanation, or illustration

Works consisting entirely of information that is common property and
containing no original authorship (for example: standard calendars,
height and weight charts, tape measures and rulers, and lists or tables
taken from public documents or other common sources)"

Retrieved June 11, 2006 from "Circular 1" at
http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html

if you're not concerned about copyright or other legal issues, i
suppose it's a "song" whenever you want it to be a "song", personally
speaking. later, ron


J.C. Scott wrote:
I was wondering how some of you view this. For example, let's say I can
envision
an entire song in my head but haven't recorded it yet in any form. Is that
visualization still considered a song, assuming the person can envision it
with crystal clarity? Would you consider this a song only AFTER it has been
written down or recorded? Personally, I consider an idea a song if it's
complete,
regardless where it's recorded or written down. I'm asking because I
got into a discussion about this with another fellow recently and his
opinion was that a song is only a song *after* it's been extracted from
your mind and written down or recorded somewhere.

Thanks for your opinion

J.C. Scott wrote:
I was wondering how some of you view this. For example, let's say I can
envision
an entire song in my head but haven't recorded it yet in any form. Is that
visualization still considered a song, assuming the person can envision it
with crystal clarity? Would you consider this a song only AFTER it has been
written down or recorded?

How would I know it was a song if it was only in your head? And why
would anyone but you care?

Generally we look for legal reasons to mark the birth of a song, and
that's what a copyright is. Unless they've changed or reworked the law,
a work is copyright once it's fixed in a tangible media - you write it
on paper, you record it on something that you can hold in your hand,
you chisel the words on a slab of stone, etc.

There is no answer to this question. Is it a song to you? I guess it is.
Are there birds outside right now singing songs? Yup.

Of course it is not a copyrightable song, but that doesn't mean it is
not a song. We get way too hung up on legalities these days.



J.C. Scott wrote:

I was wondering how some of you view this. For example, let's say I can
envision
an entire song in my head but haven't recorded it yet in any form. Is that
visualization still considered a song, assuming the person can envision it
with crystal clarity? Would you consider this a song only AFTER it has been
written down or recorded? Personally, I consider an idea a song if it's
complete,
regardless where it's recorded or written down. I'm asking because I
got into a discussion about this with another fellow recently and his
opinion was that a song is only a song *after* it's been extracted from
your mind and written down or recorded somewhere.

Thanks for your opinion

"Dr. Dolittle" wrote in message
...
There is no answer to this question. Is it a song to you? I guess it is.
Are there birds outside right now singing songs? Yup.

Of course it is not a copyrightable song, but that doesn't mean it is not
a song. We get way too hung up on legalities these days.

This I agree with. I really wasn't referring to the legal definition of a
song.

wrote in message
oups.com...

Richard Crowley wrote:
"J.C. Scott" wrote ...
I was wondering how some of you view this. For example, let's say I can
envision
an entire song in my head but haven't recorded it yet in any form. Is
that
visualization still considered a song, assuming the person can
envision it
with crystal clarity? Would you consider this a song only AFTER it has
been
written down or recorded? Personally, I consider an idea a song if
it's complete,
regardless where it's recorded or written down. I'm asking because I
got into a discussion about this with another fellow recently and his
opinion was that a song is only a song *after* it's been extracted
from
your mind and written down or recorded somewhere.

Well, for practical/legal purposes, it is only a "song"
when it is "expressed", i.e. recorded or written down.
We already have a legal mess by presuming that we can
judge people by what they may be "thinking". I believe
others have already tried the "I thought of that song first
but never wrote it down" argument. (Unsuccessfully)

If a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it, does it make a
sound?
If a song falls in your head, does anyone else hear it?
Zen is the answer...

That was basically how I viewed it. Just because others can't
see your emotions doesn't make them any less real. Just
because someone can't see your thoughts, does that mean
your thoughts don't exist? Just because someone can't
hear your song, why should that mean it doesn't exist?

Does anyone think others told Mozart that "Overture To The Magic Flute"
wasn't really an opera just because the entire composition was written
exclusively in his mind (with the pen and paper of his mind), without
written entirely in his head before a single physical note had been
transcribed? I'm not saying a person can legally claim it a song as their
own without having a physical recording, but to call something a song in a
colloquial sense when written exclusively in a persons head?

"Richard Crowley" wrote in message
...
"J.C. Scott" wrote ...
I was wondering how some of you view this. For example, let's say I can
envision
an entire song in my head but haven't recorded it yet in any form. Is
that
visualization still considered a song, assuming the person can envision
it
with crystal clarity? Would you consider this a song only AFTER it has
been
written down or recorded? Personally, I consider an idea a song if it's
complete,
regardless where it's recorded or written down. I'm asking because I
got into a discussion about this with another fellow recently and his
opinion was that a song is only a song *after* it's been extracted from
your mind and written down or recorded somewhere.

Well, for practical/legal purposes, it is only a "song"
when it is "expressed", i.e. recorded or written down.
We already have a legal mess by presuming that we can
judge people by what they may be "thinking". I believe
others have already tried the "I thought of that song first
but never wrote it down" argument. (Unsuccessfully)

A person would have no legal leg to stand on for
pressing a copyright issue. However, legalities
aside, would you not consider a complete musical
idea in someone's head as a song, even if it hasn't been
recorded or expressed to someone else?
What else would it be called if it's a complete
musical idea, regardless *where* it was written?

J.C. Scott wrote:
I was wondering how some of you view this.
Thanks for your opinion

what is this qoute from?

"he is a legend in his own mind!!!"

wrote in message
oups.com...

J.C. Scott wrote:
I was wondering how some of you view this.
Thanks for your opinion

what is this qoute from?

From me? I'm not sure what you're asking.

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
ups.com...

J.C. Scott wrote:
I was wondering how some of you view this. For example, let's say I can
envision
an entire song in my head but haven't recorded it yet in any form. Is
that
visualization still considered a song, assuming the person can envision
it
with crystal clarity? Would you consider this a song only AFTER it has
been
written down or recorded?

How would I know it was a song if it was only in your head? And why
would anyone but you care?

No one but me likely would care, that is unless I was an extremely famous
musician, perhaps.

However, I was asking due to a discussion I recently got into with another
individual who claims that a song isn't a song, no matter how complete
mentally, until it has been recorded or in some way extracted from your head
and made concrete. They claim when it's recorded and finished, it's at that
point it becomes a song. It's a bit of a semantical argument and I don't
agree with his assessment, but it got me to wondering how pro's in the music
field view this.

Yeah, I have had similar experiences when mixing a song. I could see the
whole mix in my head exactly where every image of every sound should be.
But if I didn't get right to it within an hour or so I'd lose it...
I remember trying to convey this to my girlfriend at the time and getting
into a big fight about it... I miss her...



"J.C. Scott" wrote in message
...
I was wondering how some of you view this. For example, let's say I can
envision
an entire song in my head but haven't recorded it yet in any form. Is that
visualization still considered a song, assuming the person can envision it
with crystal clarity? Would you consider this a song only AFTER it has
been
written down or recorded? Personally, I consider an idea a song if it's
complete,
regardless where it's recorded or written down. I'm asking because I
got into a discussion about this with another fellow recently and his
opinion was that a song is only a song *after* it's been extracted from
your mind and written down or recorded somewhere.

Thanks for your opinion

"Steven Sena" wrote in message
. ..
Yeah, I have had similar experiences when mixing a song. I could see the
whole mix in my head exactly where every image of every sound should be.
But if I didn't get right to it within an hour or so I'd lose it...
I remember trying to convey this to my girlfriend at the time and getting
into a big fight about it... I miss her...

I have to ask, what was the fight about though? What you were visualizing in
your head wasn't really relevant or something?


"J.C. Scott" wrote in message
...
I was wondering how some of you view this. For example, let's say I can
envision
an entire song in my head but haven't recorded it yet in any form. Is
that
visualization still considered a song, assuming the person can envision
it
with crystal clarity? Would you consider this a song only AFTER it has
been
written down or recorded? Personally, I consider an idea a song if it's
complete,
regardless where it's recorded or written down. I'm asking because I
got into a discussion about this with another fellow recently and his
opinion was that a song is only a song *after* it's been extracted from
your mind and written down or recorded somewhere.

Thanks for your opinion

J.C. Scott wrote:

However, I was asking due to a discussion I recently got into with another
individual who claims that a song isn't a song, no matter how complete
mentally, until it has been recorded or in some way extracted from your head
and made concrete.

That is certainly wrong. I have lots of songs that I have played and
sung many times that I have never recorded. They are still songs.

Well, firstly I must say that she really enjoyed a good debate. It was as if
I would say something like "it looks like rain today" and she would come
back with "why are you always being so negative Steven..." And it would just
escalate from there...
That particular "discussion" as I remember, it had something to do with, if
you had it once you should be able to recall it the same way again or you
never had it in the first place...
Which I still feel she was dead wrong about by the way...






"J.C. Scott" wrote in message
. ..

"Steven Sena" wrote in message
. ..
Yeah, I have had similar experiences when mixing a song. I could see the
whole mix in my head exactly where every image of every sound should be.
But if I didn't get right to it within an hour or so I'd lose it...
I remember trying to convey this to my girlfriend at the time and getting
into a big fight about it... I miss her...

I have to ask, what was the fight about though? What you were visualizing
in your head wasn't really relevant or something?


"J.C. Scott" wrote in message
...
I was wondering how some of you view this. For example, let's say I can
envision
an entire song in my head but haven't recorded it yet in any form. Is
that
visualization still considered a song, assuming the person can envision
it
with crystal clarity? Would you consider this a song only AFTER it has
been
written down or recorded? Personally, I consider an idea a song if it's
complete,
regardless where it's recorded or written down. I'm asking because I
got into a discussion about this with another fellow recently and his
opinion was that a song is only a song *after* it's been extracted from
your mind and written down or recorded somewhere.

Thanks for your opinion

On Sun, 11 Jun 2006 22:10:06 GMT, "J.C. Scott"
wrote:

However, I was asking due to a discussion I recently got into with another
individual who claims that a song isn't a song, no matter how complete
mentally, until it has been recorded or in some way extracted from your head
and made concrete. They claim when it's recorded and finished, it's at that
point it becomes a song. It's a bit of a semantical argument and I don't
agree with his assessment, but it got me to wondering how pro's in the music
field view this.

I very much doubt pros in the music field view it at all. :-)

"Dr. Dolittle" wrote in message
...


J.C. Scott wrote:

However, I was asking due to a discussion I recently got into with
another individual who claims that a song isn't a song, no matter how
complete mentally, until it has been recorded or in some way extracted
from your head and made concrete.

That is certainly wrong. I have lots of songs that I have played and sung
many times that I have never recorded. They are still songs.

I think even he would agree those are songs. He's referring to a
complete musical composition (what I call a song) which has been
created / composed strictly in the mind and only exists as a
product of a persons mind at that point, as they have neither played,
hummed or recorded the song in any physical sense.

Was "Overture To The Magic Flute" no less an opera before
Mozart moved it from one location (his mind) to another (paper)?

"Steven Sena" wrote in message
. ..
Well, firstly I must say that she really enjoyed a good debate. It was as
if I would say something like "it looks like rain today" and she would
come back with "why are you always being so negative Steven..." And it
would just escalate from there...
That particular "discussion" as I remember, it had something to do with,
if you had it once you should be able to recall it the same way again or
you never had it in the first place...

Easy to demonstrate. If I write an idea down at some point,
then later forget it, the fact I wrote it down demonstrates
I had the idea in the first place.



"J.C. Scott" wrote in message
. ..

"Steven Sena" wrote in message
. ..
Yeah, I have had similar experiences when mixing a song. I could see the
whole mix in my head exactly where every image of every sound should be.
But if I didn't get right to it within an hour or so I'd lose it...
I remember trying to convey this to my girlfriend at the time and
getting into a big fight about it... I miss her...

I have to ask, what was the fight about though? What you were visualizing
in your head wasn't really relevant or something?


"J.C. Scott" wrote in message
...
I was wondering how some of you view this. For example, let's say I can
envision
an entire song in my head but haven't recorded it yet in any form. Is
that
visualization still considered a song, assuming the person can envision
it
with crystal clarity? Would you consider this a song only AFTER it has
been
written down or recorded? Personally, I consider an idea a song if it's
complete,
regardless where it's recorded or written down. I'm asking because I
got into a discussion about this with another fellow recently and his
opinion was that a song is only a song *after* it's been extracted from
your mind and written down or recorded somewhere.

Thanks for your opinion

"J.C. Scott" wrote ...
However, I was asking due to a discussion I recently got into with
another individual who claims that a song isn't a song, no matter how
complete mentally, until it has been recorded or in some way extracted
from your head and made concrete. They claim when it's recorded and
finished, it's at that point it becomes a song. It's a bit of a
semantical argument and I don't agree with his assessment, but it got
me to wondering how pro's in the music field view this.

So if it is a legal question, the answer is quite clear.
If it is a philosophical question, I'll leave it to others as
I don't really care.

J.C. Scott wrote:
I was wondering how some of you view this. For example, let's say I can
envision
an entire song in my head but haven't recorded it yet in any form. Is that
visualization still considered a song, assuming the person can envision it
with crystal clarity? Would you consider this a song only AFTER it has been
written down or recorded? Personally, I consider an idea a song if it's
complete,
regardless where it's recorded or written down. I'm asking because I
got into a discussion about this with another fellow recently and his
opinion was that a song is only a song *after* it's been extracted from
your mind and written down or recorded somewhere.


I would definitely think it would depend on the basis for your
question. In a theoretical sense, yes it's a song. It exists. From a
legal standpoint, probably not.

Craig

http://www.pro-tape.com

Adobe - Apple - Audio Technica - Chandler - Denon - Digidesign -
Marantz - Maxell - Quantegy - Panasonic - Primera - Samson - Sennheiser
- Sony - TDK - Waves

"Mr. Tapeguy" wrote in message
oups.com...

J.C. Scott wrote:
I was wondering how some of you view this. For example, let's say I can
envision
an entire song in my head but haven't recorded it yet in any form. Is
that
visualization still considered a song, assuming the person can envision
it
with crystal clarity? Would you consider this a song only AFTER it has
been
written down or recorded? Personally, I consider an idea a song if it's
complete,
regardless where it's recorded or written down. I'm asking because I
got into a discussion about this with another fellow recently and his
opinion was that a song is only a song *after* it's been extracted from
your mind and written down or recorded somewhere.


I would definitely think it would depend on the basis for your
question. In a theoretical sense, yes it's a song. It exists. From a
legal standpoint, probably not.

As short and sweet as that is, it sums up my opinion.

Steven Sena wrote:
Yeah, I have had similar experiences when mixing a song. I could see the
whole mix in my head exactly where every image of every sound should be.
But if I didn't get right to it within an hour or so I'd lose it...
I remember trying to convey this to my girlfriend at the time and getting
into a big fight about it... I miss her...

Write it down! That's why you have a score... so you can mark all the
fader moves on it...
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

One wise man said 'The best music isn't heard', and I quite agree. The
best music is in our minds. The trouble is articulating it,
engineering it, and distributing it.

"Gregory Bittar" wrote in message
ups.com...
One wise man said 'The best music isn't heard', and I quite agree. The
best music is in our minds. The trouble is articulating it,
engineering it, and distributing it.

Agree 100%.

J.C. Scott wrote:

Just because others can't
see your emotions doesn't make them any less real. Just
because someone can't see your thoughts, does that mean
your thoughts don't exist? Just because someone can't
hear your song, why should that mean it doesn't exist?

Zen just go ahead and prove the existence of an unexpressed thought.

A song is something that can be heard; while a song unsung may well
exist in your head the head of another may well not be aware of its
existence.

--
ha

Steven Sena wrote:

Well, firstly I must say that she really enjoyed a good debate. It was as if
I would say something like "it looks like rain today" and she would come
back with "why are you always being so negative Steven..." And it would just
escalate from there...

I guess she has little appreciation for drought and remedial measures
for it.

That particular "discussion" as I remember, it had something to do with, if
you had it once you should be able to recall it the same way again or you
never had it in the first place...
Which I still feel she was dead wrong about by the way...

She doesn't write songs, does she?

--
ha

"hank alrich" wrote in message
.. .
J.C. Scott wrote:

Just because others can't
see your emotions doesn't make them any less real. Just
because someone can't see your thoughts, does that mean
your thoughts don't exist? Just because someone can't
hear your song, why should that mean it doesn't exist?

Zen just go ahead and prove the existence of an unexpressed thought.

A song is something that can be heard; while a song unsung may well
exist in your head the head of another may well not be aware of its
existence.

I'd like to ask what difference it makes if others can hear it, though? Must
you express love in order that it be labeled love that you're experiencing?

hank alrich wrote:

J.C. Scott wrote:


Just because others can't
see your emotions doesn't make them any less real. Just
because someone can't see your thoughts, does that mean
your thoughts don't exist? Just because someone can't
hear your song, why should that mean it doesn't exist?


Zen just go ahead and prove the existence of an unexpressed thought.

A song is something that can be heard; while a song unsung may well
exist in your head the head of another may well not be aware of its
existence.

--
ha

I think the principal role of the recordist is damage control, in
the sense of the Cap'n shouting "Damage report" in a submarine movie.

There is only so much view into the heads of other people we can
handle, after all. The torpedos are just a kindness.

--
Les Cargill