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Gary Eickmeier Gary Eickmeier is offline
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Default Zoom H6

Was it in this group that I read some critical information about the Zoom H6
recorder? Something about distortion in the ADC-DAC area. I am also thinking
that I read somewhere that they have corrected the circuitry for much better
sound than in the original I don't remember the actual name of who said it
or when.

Gary Eickmeier


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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Default Zoom H6

Gary Eickmeier wrote:
Was it in this group that I read some critical information about the Zoom H6
recorder? Something about distortion in the ADC-DAC area. I am also thinking
that I read somewhere that they have corrected the circuitry for much better
sound than in the original I don't remember the actual name of who said it
or when.


I don't know if this is what you're referring to, but the input stages have
very little headroom (which isn't surprising considering they're running on
very low voltage rails with battery power). So it is possible to set the gains
low and clip the hell out of the inputs without the meters coming anywhere
near full scale.

Set on line input, a normal +4 input will severely clip, and a -10 consumer
input is likely to clip. Adding an external pad will fix it.

Don't just watch the meters, listen to the output too. Your ears will tell
you when everything is okay.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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John Williamson John Williamson is offline
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Default Zoom H6

On 01/12/2016 14:31, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Gary Eickmeier wrote:
Was it in this group that I read some critical information about the Zoom H6
recorder? Something about distortion in the ADC-DAC area. I am also thinking
that I read somewhere that they have corrected the circuitry for much better
sound than in the original I don't remember the actual name of who said it
or when.


I don't know if this is what you're referring to, but the input stages have
very little headroom (which isn't surprising considering they're running on
very low voltage rails with battery power). So it is possible to set the gains
low and clip the hell out of the inputs without the meters coming anywhere
near full scale.

Set on line input, a normal +4 input will severely clip, and a -10 consumer
input is likely to clip. Adding an external pad will fix it.

Don't just watch the meters, listen to the output too. Your ears will tell
you when everything is okay.
--scott

I don't know if it's all or even any of their devices, but I heard that
some of the Zoom range do the attenuation for the built in mic
sensitivity control) in the digital domain after the ADC. Or was that
just a nasty rumour? I've never used one anywhere I needed to cut the
mic gain down, so I've no experience of nastiness caused by that.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.
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Mike Rivers[_2_] Mike Rivers[_2_] is offline
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Default Zoom H6

On 12/1/2016 9:31 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
I don't know if this is what you're referring to, but the input stages have
very little headroom (which isn't surprising considering they're running on
very low voltage rails with battery power). So it is possible to set the gains
low and clip the hell out of the inputs without the meters coming anywhere
near full scale.

Set on line input, a normal +4 input will severely clip, and a -10 consumer
input is likely to clip. Adding an external pad will fix it.


The Zoom H2 and H4 were like this but by the time the H4n (which is
still a current model) came along, they fixed this. With the H4n that I
tested, I could put +28 dBu into the line input, turn the record level
control down so that the meters were reading below 0 dFS and not have
clipping. I don't remember how much level the mic inputs will take
without clipping, but it was more than enough so that this shouldn't be
concern as long as the meters aren't pegged.

What I do recall is that the analog output stage will clip when playing
a 0 dBFS recording with the output level turned up full, even running
into an open circuit. So if you're monitoring at a sufficiently too-loud
level, you could hear clipping even though the recording isn't clipped.

Everybody who has one of these things should experiment with them and
learn their limits. Everybody who has one of these things should also
have some test equipment. That's the rub.


--

For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com
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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Default Zoom H6

In article , Mike Rivers wrote:
On 12/1/2016 9:31 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
I don't know if this is what you're referring to, but the input stages have
very little headroom (which isn't surprising considering they're running on
very low voltage rails with battery power). So it is possible to set the gains
low and clip the hell out of the inputs without the meters coming anywhere
near full scale.


The Zoom H2 and H4 were like this but by the time the H4n (which is
still a current model) came along, they fixed this. With the H4n that I
tested, I could put +28 dBu into the line input, turn the record level
control down so that the meters were reading below 0 dFS and not have
clipping. I don't remember how much level the mic inputs will take
without clipping, but it was more than enough so that this shouldn't be
concern as long as the meters aren't pegged.


Try the mike input! It's much more touchy, easily as much as the old
Tascam DA-P20 was. The H6 is a whole lot better than the H2 and H4
were, but you still have to be careful with gain structure.

What I do recall is that the analog output stage will clip when playing
a 0 dBFS recording with the output level turned up full, even running
into an open circuit. So if you're monitoring at a sufficiently too-loud
level, you could hear clipping even though the recording isn't clipped.


Now that's one I haven't seen, but then I never used the H6 for serious
playback either.

Everybody who has one of these things should experiment with them and
learn their limits. Everybody who has one of these things should also
have some test equipment. That's the rub.


That's just how audio is.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."


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Trevor Trevor is offline
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Default Zoom H6

On 2/12/2016 1:31 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
I don't know if this is what you're referring to, but the input stages have
very little headroom (which isn't surprising considering they're running on
very low voltage rails with battery power). So it is possible to set the gains
low and clip the hell out of the inputs without the meters coming anywhere
near full scale.

Set on line input, a normal +4 input will severely clip, and a -10 consumer
input is likely to clip. Adding an external pad will fix it.

Don't just watch the meters, listen to the output too. Your ears will tell
you when everything is okay.


So without very high isolation headphones you have no way of knowing
about minor clipping when recording then?

Trevor.


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Trevor Trevor is offline
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Default Zoom H6

On 2/12/2016 10:10 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article , Mike Rivers wrote:
What I do recall is that the analog output stage will clip when playing
a 0 dBFS recording with the output level turned up full, even running
into an open circuit. So if you're monitoring at a sufficiently too-loud
level, you could hear clipping even though the recording isn't clipped.


Now that's one I haven't seen, but then I never used the H6 for serious
playback either.



Serious playback would include monitoring the recording as you suggested
to avoid clipping the inputs. Rather defeats that purpose if the output
is clipping instead!

Trevor.


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Mike Rivers[_2_] Mike Rivers[_2_] is offline
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Default Zoom H6

On 12/2/2016 12:40 AM, Trevor wrote:
So without very high isolation headphones you have no way of knowing
about minor clipping when recording then?


It's easy. You learn how your recorder's meters respond, and use them as
your guide to setting the record level. What I learned about my Zoom H2
was that if I had to turn the record level down below 100 (on a scale of
0-127) in order to keep the meters from hitting full scale, I was likely
to have clipping if I didn't attenuate the level going in.

I built an attenuator box to drop the level to the external line/mic
input jack. When using the built-in mics, the attenuation switch usually
takes care of it. If it's too loud to not clip at the low gain setting,
then I don't want to stand there holding the recorder.


--

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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Default Zoom H6

In article , Trevor wrote:
On 2/12/2016 1:31 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
I don't know if this is what you're referring to, but the input stages have
very little headroom (which isn't surprising considering they're running on
very low voltage rails with battery power). So it is possible to set the gains
low and clip the hell out of the inputs without the meters coming anywhere
near full scale.

Set on line input, a normal +4 input will severely clip, and a -10 consumer
input is likely to clip. Adding an external pad will fix it.

Don't just watch the meters, listen to the output too. Your ears will tell
you when everything is okay.


So without very high isolation headphones you have no way of knowing
about minor clipping when recording then?


Well, the alternative is to learn about your gain structure in advance. With
the DA P-20, I learned never to have the master gain control below 4 with a
microphone input...
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Don Pearce[_3_] Don Pearce[_3_] is offline
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Default Zoom H6

On Fri, 2 Dec 2016 07:40:04 -0500, Mike Rivers
wrote:

On 12/2/2016 12:40 AM, Trevor wrote:
So without very high isolation headphones you have no way of knowing
about minor clipping when recording then?


It's easy. You learn how your recorder's meters respond, and use them as
your guide to setting the record level. What I learned about my Zoom H2
was that if I had to turn the record level down below 100 (on a scale of
0-127) in order to keep the meters from hitting full scale, I was likely
to have clipping if I didn't attenuate the level going in.

I built an attenuator box to drop the level to the external line/mic
input jack. When using the built-in mics, the attenuation switch usually
takes care of it. If it's too loud to not clip at the low gain setting,
then I don't want to stand there holding the recorder.


Exactly the same with Sony's DAT Walkman. The advice from the guys at
Oade was to plug the mic into Line In if the record level had to be
turned down very far below max.

This should not be happening any more as it is so easy to generate a
decent rail voltage from batteries. Switch-mode power supplies really
are that good now.

d

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