Hi.
My old 4-track cassette recorder is slowly dying on me - I'm getting track
drop-outs and other malfunctions all the time. I'm ready to upgrade to a 4-track
digital recorder, but I'm going to miss the warmth and the pleasant distortion
that the cassette gave me. Is there an outboard unit that would warm up and
compress the sound like the tape does that I could get for reasonable money
second-hand - up to, say, $300? A friend of mine suggested I get a compressor -
is he right, and if so, which one makes for good value in the price range I
gave?

On a related note, I know that a compressor squashes the mix to make it louder
(in layman's terms) - is that similar to the effect you get if you turn up a
song very loud on the headphones - I'd love to get that sound from the speakers
on lower levels, as well (especially with the drums), but I never seem to be
able to.

Thanks in advance and regards,
Vera

Vera,

Is there an outboard unit that would warm up and compress the sound like
the tape does

I think you're asking the wrong question. A recording medium should be
transparent. You can buy plug-ins for distortion, or come up with other ways
to mangle a track or full mix afterward if you actually like that sound.

--Ethan

Vera Cruz wrote:
Hi.
My old 4-track cassette recorder is slowly dying on me - I'm getting track
drop-outs and other malfunctions all the time. I'm ready to upgrade to a 4-track
digital recorder, but I'm going to miss the warmth and the pleasant distortion
that the cassette gave me. Is there an outboard unit that would warm up and
compress the sound like the tape does that I could get for reasonable money
second-hand - up to, say, $300? A friend of mine suggested I get a compressor -
is he right, and if so, which one makes for good value in the price range I
gave?

If you want it to sound like a cassette recorder, then why upgrade? Why
do you consider it an "upgrade" if you think it sounds worse? You can
still buy cassette 4-tracks for $99 new. You could even get a second
hand one off eBay - it'll probably not be working properly, and will
therefore be even "warmer" than a new one.

You will sound better if you have a compressor regardless of whether
you're using a cassette or a digital 4-track, particularly cassette
because a hotter mean signal matters a lot with a cassette. The RNC is
the standard recommendation for a cheap compressor, though a Behringer
or an Alesis is cheaper and "warmer" (ie more distorted). Neither will
make a digital recorder sound as bad as your cassette, though, if
that's what you're looking for.


On a related note, I know that a compressor squashes the mix to make it louder
(in layman's terms) - is that similar to the effect you get if you turn up a
song very loud on the headphones - I'd love to get that sound from the speakers
on lower levels, as well (especially with the drums), but I never seem to be
able to.

That's just distortion. There are lots of ways of doing it. Put the
drums through an overdrive pedal or something. Or buy the Alesis 3630
compressor - it's very cheap and crappy, which appears to be the sound
you like.


Thanks in advance and regards,
Vera

"Ethan Winer" ethanw at ethanwiner dot com wrote in message
...
Vera,

Is there an outboard unit that would warm up and compress the sound like
the tape does

I think you're asking the wrong question. A recording medium should be
transparent. You can buy plug-ins for distortion, or come up with other ways
to mangle a track or full mix afterward if you actually like that sound.

--Ethan

I suppose you're right, it's just that I'm not used in thinking in this way.
With my budget, it was always a question of my recordings sounding sterile and
lifeless, or somewhat muddy but warm and fuller. So let me ask the question this
way - what outboard unit would do a good job of turning a sterile recording into
a warmer one?

wrote in message
oups.com...

If you want it to sound like a cassette recorder, then why upgrade? Why
do you consider it an "upgrade" if you think it sounds worse? You can
still buy cassette 4-tracks for $99 new. You could even get a second
hand one off eBay - it'll probably not be working properly, and will
therefore be even "warmer" than a new one.

Well, there are obvious benefits with going digital regarding my needs, i.e.
more channels, integrated effects (even basic mastering ones), less mechanical
noise, convenient data storage. It's just that I got used to and fell in love
with the sound of my 424.

You will sound better if you have a compressor regardless of whether
you're using a cassette or a digital 4-track, particularly cassette
because a hotter mean signal matters a lot with a cassette. The RNC is
the standard recommendation for a cheap compressor, though a Behringer
or an Alesis is cheaper and "warmer" (ie more distorted). Neither will
make a digital recorder sound as bad as your cassette, though, if
that's what you're looking for.

Right, I'll remember that. How would you say, then, these cheap outboard
compressors measure up to those integrated into digital multitrack effect
boards? Are they worth the extra money?

On a related note, I know that a compressor squashes the mix to make it
louder
(in layman's terms) - is that similar to the effect you get if you turn up a
song very loud on the headphones - I'd love to get that sound from the
speakers
on lower levels, as well (especially with the drums), but I never seem to be
able to.

That's just distortion. There are lots of ways of doing it. Put the
drums through an overdrive pedal or something. Or buy the Alesis 3630
compressor - it's very cheap and crappy, which appears to be the sound
you like.
The way you say it sounds as if this were a crime. And it may well be, it's just
that I'm not after lo-fi in a dogmatic way, but I do prefer it for some reason.
Are you sure, though, that just distorting everything in one way or another is
all there is to it?

"Vera Cruz" wrote in message

"Ethan Winer" ethanw at ethanwiner dot com wrote in
message ...
Vera,

Is there an outboard unit that would warm up and
compress the sound like
the tape does

I think you're asking the wrong question. A recording
medium should be transparent. You can buy plug-ins for
distortion, or come up with other ways to mangle a track
or full mix afterward if you actually like that sound.

I suppose you're right, it's just that I'm not used in
thinking in this way. With my budget, it was always a
question of my recordings sounding sterile and lifeless,
or somewhat muddy but warm and fuller. So let me ask the
question this way - what outboard unit would do a good
job of turning a sterile recording into a warmer one?

How about this plan:

(1) Zoom into the 21st century where we often obtain warm,
full recordings using clean audio gear, the simplest
possible way.

(2) If you've got problems with sterile recordings, maybe
its your room, your mics, or how they use them.

(3) If you want to change the color of a recording - use the
simplest easiest possible means - the equalization that's
built into most audio recording software.]

(4) Failing all of the above, take a look at the numerious
plug-in software that gives you the colors you can't mix up
for yourself.

Vera Cruz wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

If you want it to sound like a cassette recorder, then why upgrade? Why
do you consider it an "upgrade" if you think it sounds worse? You can
still buy cassette 4-tracks for $99 new. You could even get a second
hand one off eBay - it'll probably not be working properly, and will
therefore be even "warmer" than a new one.

Well, there are obvious benefits with going digital regarding my needs, i.e.
more channels, integrated effects (even basic mastering ones), less mechanical
noise, convenient data storage. It's just that I got used to and fell in love
with the sound of my 424.

It won't sound like a 424. I think it'll sound much better, and without
question it'll sound more like what you recorded. But buy another 424
if that's what you want. I can't imagine a data storage mechanism more
convenient than cassette, by the way. Also, the 424 had some features
that most of the digital ones don't - like 4 mic pres, 4 track
simultaneous recording, individual outs. If you need these, make sure
you get them.



You will sound better if you have a compressor regardless of whether
you're using a cassette or a digital 4-track, particularly cassette
because a hotter mean signal matters a lot with a cassette. The RNC is
the standard recommendation for a cheap compressor, though a Behringer
or an Alesis is cheaper and "warmer" (ie more distorted). Neither will
make a digital recorder sound as bad as your cassette, though, if
that's what you're looking for.

Right, I'll remember that. How would you say, then, these cheap outboard
compressors measure up to those integrated into digital multitrack effect
boards? Are they worth the extra money?

They're "warmer" ie more distorted. I wouldn't touch one with a 12 foot
pole myself. I'd get a RNC, basically for level control when tracking.
But I like recordings undistorted.

I'm not sure that the cheapest digital recorders even have insert
points between the mic pre and the A/D, so I'm not sure that you could
use an outboard compressor at all with all of them.



On a related note, I know that a compressor squashes the mix to make it
louder
(in layman's terms) - is that similar to the effect you get if you turn up a
song very loud on the headphones - I'd love to get that sound from the
speakers
on lower levels, as well (especially with the drums), but I never seem to be
able to.

That's just distortion. There are lots of ways of doing it. Put the
drums through an overdrive pedal or something. Or buy the Alesis 3630
compressor - it's very cheap and crappy, which appears to be the sound
you like.
The way you say it sounds as if this were a crime. And it may well be, it's just
that I'm not after lo-fi in a dogmatic way, but I do prefer it for some reason.
Are you sure, though, that just distorting everything in one way or another is
all there is to it?

Yes. Though, arguably, distorting everything in one way or another is
all there is to any audio processing beyond level control.

it's time to let your old habbit die. it's ok, there are plenty of
digital walruses (walri?) sunning themselves on the arctic rocks for
you to hang with in slow motion.

in less abstract terms:
get used to doing all your stuff digital in the computer. then once
your mix is done, you can output it from the computer to a regular
cassette mixdown deck. or you could step up to a professional 2-track
mixdown reel to reel and get "warmth" without nearly as much sonic
degradation as a cassette deck.

"Vera Cruz" wrote in message
...

On a related note, I know that a compressor squashes the mix to make it
louder
(in layman's terms) - is that similar to the effect you get if you turn up
a
song very loud on the headphones - I'd love to get that sound from the
speakers
on lower levels, as well (especially with the drums), but I never seem to
be
able to.

Some of these digital recorders come with built-in effects such as
compression.

But first I suggest you get some audio files and tinker round with audio
editing software to see what the various effects available do. If you have a
Windows PC, then Goldwave is pretty cheap, and it's a free download for
evaluation purposes. It can also use "Plug-ins", some of which are free for
downloading.

(There are plenty of other audio editors, which will have similar
facilities.)

A compressor doesn't actually make sound louder, it makes it quieter.
However, it does that by reducing the loud sounds more than quiet sounds -
so you can turn the volume up more, without the loudest passages rattling
your windows.

I doubt if you make make sound played quietly through speakers ound similar
to sound played loudly; however, what you can do is use EQ to boost LF and
HF sound. At low sound levels, the ear's sensitivity to LF and HF falls
more rapidly than its sensitivity to mid-range sounds. That might help;
why not try it and see?

Tim

My old 4-track cassette recorder is slowly dying on me - I'm getting track
drop-outs and other malfunctions all the time. I'm ready to upgrade to a 4-track
digital recorder, but I'm going to miss the warmth and the pleasant distortion
that the cassette gave me.

There is a certain effect you get from wide-track tape at high speeds
that some people like. But you aren't getting that from 4-track
cassette. You're just getting lousy performance, traded off against a
cheap entry into the world of multi-track recording. Learn to like a
more accurate recording.

Laurence Payne wrote:

There is a certain effect you get from wide-track tape at high speeds
that some people like. But you aren't getting that from 4-track
cassette. You're just getting lousy performance, traded off against a
cheap entry into the world of multi-track recording. Learn to like a
more accurate recording.

But cassette 4-track does have a distinctive sound that I associate
with a few albums I enjoy. Old Ween records have that sound, but there
are also all those basement tapes made by friends that have a nostalgic
appeal. The sound of a cassette 4-track has a lot to do with the
narrow dynamic range and the distortion of the low-headroom transistor
electronics. But most of all it comes from the one effect built into
most cheap cassette 4-tracks: Vari-speed. These kinds of tapes almost
always have pitch shifting going on someplace, usually on vocals, and
usually a whole lot of it. So if the OP wants to recreate the sound of
a cassette 4-track, he can use a Radio Shack speaker phone or a Smokey
pocket-sized amplifier for guitar sounds (use it as a mike preamp
too!), record in a dead room or closet with a ****ty dynamic mike, and
then use varispeed plug-ins and not much else. It shouldn't be too
hard, as long as you can resist the temptation to use reverb,
sophisticated EQ, or high-quality analog front end gear.

ulysses

On a related note, I know that a compressor squashes the mix to make it
louder
(in layman's terms) - is that similar to the effect you get if you turn up
a
song very loud on the headphones

What, you mean hearing damage and deafness?