[Danny T]

A while back I read an article about Limewire being taken out of
service. There are so many sites like Rhapsody that I figured the
pirate days were behind us. 9 bucks lets you download everything you
can grab so you'd think people would be happy with that.

Enter Frostwire..... The new Limewire.

We're right back to where we started. Are people so cheap they can't
pay a monthly fee of 9 bucks? I've lost hope in people.

[Jenn[_2_]]

In article
,
Danny T wrote:

A while back I read an article about Limewire being taken out of
service. There are so many sites like Rhapsody that I figured the
pirate days were behind us. 9 bucks lets you download everything you
can grab so you'd think people would be happy with that.

Enter Frostwire..... The new Limewire.

We're right back to where we started. Are people so cheap they can't
pay a monthly fee of 9 bucks? I've lost hope in people.

I can tell you that in my experience, the VAST majority of college-aged
people (the largest group of downloaders) either don't care that it's
immoral, or they just believe that music should be free.

--
www.jennifermartinmusic.com

[Danny T]

On Jan 4, 4:02*pm, Jenn wrote:
In article
,
*Danny T wrote:

A while back I read an article about Limewire being taken out of
service. There are so many sites like Rhapsody that I figured the
pirate days were behind us. 9 bucks lets you download everything *you
can grab so you'd think people would be happy with that.

Enter Frostwire..... The new Limewire.

We're right back to where we started. Are people so cheap they can't
pay a monthly fee of 9 bucks? I've lost hope in people.

I can tell you that in my experience, the VAST majority of college-aged
people (the largest group of downloaders) either don't care that it's
immoral, or they just believe that music should be free.

--www.jennifermartinmusic.com

Considering what most of them listen to, I'd agree it should be
free :-)
That is a sad thing to think. A little reality education on what
artists really make would be helpful. All those kids running around
with idealistic hearts wanting to save stuff.... even cats... You'd
think they would be easy to teach.

[Jenn[_2_]]

In article
,
Danny T wrote:

On Jan 4, 4:02*pm, Jenn wrote:
In article
,
*Danny T wrote:

A while back I read an article about Limewire being taken out of
service. There are so many sites like Rhapsody that I figured the
pirate days were behind us. 9 bucks lets you download everything *you
can grab so you'd think people would be happy with that.

Enter Frostwire..... The new Limewire.

We're right back to where we started. Are people so cheap they can't
pay a monthly fee of 9 bucks? I've lost hope in people.

I can tell you that in my experience, the VAST majority of college-aged
people (the largest group of downloaders) either don't care that it's
immoral, or they just believe that music should be free.

--www.jennifermartinmusic.com

Considering what most of them listen to, I'd agree it should be
free :-)
That is a sad thing to think. A little reality education on what
artists really make would be helpful. All those kids running around
with idealistic hearts wanting to save stuff.... even cats... You'd
think they would be easy to teach.

It IS easy to teach, but:
1. The number of people who take the class where one would learn that
is a relatively small percentage, and,
2. In spite of being taught, it's "entrenched" in the culture now that
music can be had for free. The is what I hear constantly:
A. "It's only wrong if you get caught, and they catch only a tiny
percentage."
B. "The fat cats of the music business have been screwing us for years;
now it's our turn. A CD only costs a few pennies to make, and look what
they charge us!"
C. "The artists make a ton of money; they don't need my $0.12. Most of
their money is made from t-shirts anyway!"
C.

--
www.jennifermartinmusic.com

[Bill Graham]

Jenn wrote:
In article
,
Danny T wrote:

A while back I read an article about Limewire being taken out of
service. There are so many sites like Rhapsody that I figured the
pirate days were behind us. 9 bucks lets you download everything you
can grab so you'd think people would be happy with that.

Enter Frostwire..... The new Limewire.

We're right back to where we started. Are people so cheap they can't
pay a monthly fee of 9 bucks? I've lost hope in people.

I can tell you that in my experience, the VAST majority of
college-aged people (the largest group of downloaders) either don't
care that it's immoral, or they just believe that music should be
free.

Yes. 50 million teenagers will sit up all night for weeks trying to figure
out a way to get music for free. You will never be able to get around that,
because they can form a club and send the music to one another.

[Mike Rivers]

On 1/4/2011 7:30 PM, Jenn wrote:

It IS easy to teach, but:
1. The number of people who take the class where one would learn that
is a relatively small percentage, and,
2. In spite of being taught, it's "entrenched" in the culture now that
music can be had for free. The is what I hear constantly:
A. "It's only wrong if you get caught, and they catch only a tiny
percentage."
B. "The fat cats of the music business have been screwing us for years;
now it's our turn. A CD only costs a few pennies to make, and look what
they charge us!"
C. "The artists make a ton of money; they don't need my $0.12. Most of
their money is made from t-shirts anyway!"


3. Musicians should have jobs like everyone else. g



--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson

http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and
interesting audio stuff

[Jenn[_2_]]

In article ,
Mike Rivers wrote:

On 1/4/2011 7:30 PM, Jenn wrote:

It IS easy to teach, but:
1. The number of people who take the class where one would learn that
is a relatively small percentage, and,
2. In spite of being taught, it's "entrenched" in the culture now that
music can be had for free. The is what I hear constantly:
A. "It's only wrong if you get caught, and they catch only a tiny
percentage."
B. "The fat cats of the music business have been screwing us for years;
now it's our turn. A CD only costs a few pennies to make, and look what
they charge us!"
C. "The artists make a ton of money; they don't need my $0.12. Most of
their money is made from t-shirts anyway!"


3. Musicians should have jobs like everyone else. g

Exactly!

--
www.jennifermartinmusic.com

[Danny T]

On Jan 4, 7:10*pm, "Bill Graham" wrote:
Jenn wrote:
In article
,
Danny T wrote:

A while back I read an article about Limewire being taken out of
service. There are so many sites like Rhapsody that I figured the
pirate days were behind us. 9 bucks lets you download everything *you
can grab so you'd think people would be happy with that.

Enter Frostwire..... The new Limewire.

We're right back to where we started. Are people so cheap they can't
pay a monthly fee of 9 bucks? I've lost hope in people.

I can tell you that in my experience, the VAST majority of
college-aged people (the largest group of downloaders) either don't
care that it's immoral, or they just believe that music should be
free.

Yes. 50 million teenagers will sit up all night for weeks trying to figure
out a way to get music for free. You will never be able to get around that,
because they can form a club and send the music to one another.

That's probably why Christian music has high sales compared to other
genres. Guilt :-)

[Doug McDonald[_4_]]

We're right back to where we started. Are people so cheap they can't
pay a monthly fee of 9 bucks? I've lost hope in people.



I'll tell you why!

Because of the stupid, insane, anti-buyer way the legal sites
like Amazon or eMusic sell music.

That is, you want to buy a piece of music, say the Beethoven 7th Symphony.

You look at the listing and it is coupled with the 5th Symphony, which you
don't want from that conductor. So you'll just buy the four 7th Symnphony
tracks, right? Wrong! Because they refuse to sell you one on them, you
would have to buy the who album. eMusic used to sell you any
track you wanted, but no more. Some classical sellers like eClassical
will, but they don't cover all labels. Another is rumvi.com,
which will sell you just about anything from the old Soviet Union, which
turned out tons and tons of first rate classical music.

Of course this is not universal ... some labels, even at Amazon,
will sell you any track, of some labels, at different prices.
But this is unusual.

What **IS** usual is the recording industry shooting itself in
the foot. I spent lots and lots of money at eMusic before they
stopped selling me what I wanted. Now I don't.

Also typical is how Amazon makes the "instant buy" button
so there is no second chance ... accidentally hit one, and you've bought it.

That just happened to me as I was looking at the Beethoven 5Th and 7th Symphonies,
as discussed above. I accidentally bought them! Now in this case,
the accidental result was two of the most highly regarded performances around,
which I previously did not have, by Carlos Kleiber. So I just lucked out,
as it really was an accident. I'm listening now.

Sorry to be so off-topic, but this is a pet peeve.

Doug McDonald

[hank alrich]

Danny T wrote:

A while back I read an article about Limewire being taken out of
service. There are so many sites like Rhapsody that I figured the
pirate days were behind us. 9 bucks lets you download everything you
can grab so you'd think people would be happy with that.

Enter Frostwire..... The new Limewire.

We're right back to where we started. Are people so cheap they can't
pay a monthly fee of 9 bucks? I've lost hope in people.

We have reached the point that if you present prerecorded music in a
manner that allows people to hear it, it will wind up available
somewhere for nothing.

The only thing we can aim to control is access to the building in which
we will perform.

This problematic situation is far more complex than it appears on the
surface. This is not about teaching the kids morals and such; it's about
evolution, and McLuhan alerted us to it, though I wasn't paying
attention at the time.

Our technological systems of communication and perception are extensions
of our being. As such they in turn deliver different beings. That's the
deal about "the medium is the message".

The networks that allow us to have this discussion in turn create
borderless communities that develop into worldwide tribes, tending
toward a single tribe via the web. That's the "global village" part of
the deal.

Tribal humans had and have little or no concept of private property, let
alone intellectual property. (This obviously skirts the issue of priests
and religions and the making of power out of the whole cloth of human
imagination and the exploitation of fear.) Nobody back in the day picked
up a rock and then hit the patent office claiming to have invented
weaponry.

On the one hand, times have changed, which is all they ever do, and on
the other hand, so have humans, even if the changes are generally
difficult to perceive by the critters living on the cusps.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://armadillomusicproductions.com/who'slistening.html
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShai...withDougHarman

[hank alrich]

Danny T wrote:

On Jan 4, 4:02 pm, Jenn wrote:
In article
,
Danny T wrote:

A while back I read an article about Limewire being taken out of
service. There are so many sites like Rhapsody that I figured the
pirate days were behind us. 9 bucks lets you download everything you
can grab so you'd think people would be happy with that.

Enter Frostwire..... The new Limewire.

We're right back to where we started. Are people so cheap they can't
pay a monthly fee of 9 bucks? I've lost hope in people.

I can tell you that in my experience, the VAST majority of college-aged
people (the largest group of downloaders) either don't care that it's
immoral, or they just believe that music should be free.

--www.jennifermartinmusic.com

Considering what most of them listen to, I'd agree it should be
free :-)

BTW, McLuhan also covered the shifting of perceptual primacy from the
ear to the eye. This underlies satisfaction with low resolution audi
files.

http://www.nextnature.net/2009/12/th...rshall-mcluhan
/

That is a sad thing to think. A little reality education on what
artists really make would be helpful. All those kids running around
with idealistic hearts wanting to save stuff.... even cats... You'd
think they would be easy to teach.

Seriously, Danny, that article I ref'd above offers deep chewing on this
stuff.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://armadillomusicproductions.com/who'slistening.html
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShai...withDougHarman

[[email protected]]

On 2011-01-05 (hankalrich) said:
We have reached the point that if you present prerecorded music in a
manner that allows people to hear it, it will wind up available
somewhere for nothing.
The only thing we can aim to control is access to the building in
which we will perform.
INdeed, because even if it's captured for broadcast somebody
will no doubt record it, nuke the ads (if any) that paid for
it and put it up for the world to access later.

Meanwhile we develop new forms of entertainment, not just
easier to access as a consumer, but easier to access as a
so-called creator. can't play or sing? THat's fine, put
some sample loops together, autotune your voice and throw it
out there, after all, it was something you did in your spare
time in your back bedroom for fun.
LIve performance is still valued by those who have an
appreciation for it, but unless you give most folks some
spectacle along with it they won't pay to see it.
What makes the Roger Waters performance of the Wall special?
IT isn't the band. IT's the spectacular special effects and
manipulation of illusion.

This problematic situation is far more complex than it appears on
the surface. This is not about teaching the kids morals and such;
it's about evolution, and McLuhan alerted us to it, though I wasn't
paying attention at the time.

OF course we weren't, we figured on a different paradigm,
easier access and more ways for artists to actually get
their art out and profit by it.
we should have figured that something for nothing would be
the way of things, because, as you mention:

The networks that allow us to have this discussion in turn create
borderless communities that develop into worldwide tribes, tending
toward a single tribe via the web. That's the "global village" part
of the deal.
Tribal humans had and have little or no concept of private property,
let alone intellectual property. (This obviously skirts the issue
of priests and religions and the making of power out of the whole
cloth of human imagination and the exploitation of fear.)

INdeed, after all, your property is the tribe's property,
unless it was your spear, your bow nad arrow, your
hut/hole/tent. Other than those items personal property,
and intellectual property were concepts foreign to the
tribe.




Richard webb,

replace anything before at with elspider
ON site audio in the southland: see www.gatasound.com

[mcnewsxp]

"Danny T" wrote in message
...
A while back I read an article about Limewire being taken out of
service. There are so many sites like Rhapsody that I figured the
pirate days were behind us. 9 bucks lets you download everything you
can grab so you'd think people would be happy with that.

Enter Frostwire..... The new Limewire.

We're right back to where we started. Are people so cheap they can't
pay a monthly fee of 9 bucks? I've lost hope in people.

if people *can* get it for free - they will. not really hard to understand.
all cars have turn signals but only people who give a damn about the other
guy on the road use them. it's yoomin naycha.

[Danny T]

On Jan 5, 12:17*pm, (hank alrich) wrote:
Danny T wrote:
On Jan 4, 4:02 pm, Jenn wrote:
In article
,
*Danny T wrote:

A while back I read an article about Limewire being taken out of
service. There are so many sites like Rhapsody that I figured the
pirate days were behind us. 9 bucks lets you download everything *you
can grab so you'd think people would be happy with that.

Enter Frostwire..... The new Limewire.

We're right back to where we started. Are people so cheap they can't
pay a monthly fee of 9 bucks? I've lost hope in people.

I can tell you that in my experience, the VAST majority of college-aged
people (the largest group of downloaders) either don't care that it's
immoral, or they just believe that music should be free.

--www.jennifermartinmusic.com

Considering what most of them listen to, I'd agree it should be
free :-)

BTW, McLuhan also covered the shifting of perceptual primacy from the
ear to the eye. This underlies satisfaction with low resolution audi
files.

http://www.nextnature.net/2009/12/th...rshall-mcluhan
/

That is a sad thing to think. A little reality education on what
artists really make would be helpful. All those kids running around
with idealistic hearts wanting to save stuff.... even cats... You'd
think they would be easy to teach.

Seriously, Danny, that article I ref'd above offers deep chewing on this
stuff.

--
shut up and play your guitar *http://hankalrich.com/http://armadillomusicproductions.com/who'slistening.htmlhttp://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidriAlrichwithDougHarman

Well that was a long article. He approaches things from a viewpoint
that I don't subscribe to so I find fault with his ideas. I think
we're basic. I think that if we are brought up to believe in the
humanist religion we act humanist. If we are brought up in another, we
act that way. Most people are humanists these days so most people
subscribe to the myth of "its all good". Since I am the unpopular man
out in Christianity, most would not understand my simple thoughts. I
just think people are selfish creeps that have been taught to think no
one else matters but themselves and the best thing to do is say screw
it and take what you can, give nothing back.

[Dirk Bruere at NeoPax]

On 04/01/2011 22:02, Jenn wrote:
In article
,
Danny wrote:

A while back I read an article about Limewire being taken out of
service. There are so many sites like Rhapsody that I figured the
pirate days were behind us. 9 bucks lets you download everything you
can grab so you'd think people would be happy with that.

Enter Frostwire..... The new Limewire.

We're right back to where we started. Are people so cheap they can't
pay a monthly fee of 9 bucks? I've lost hope in people.

I can tell you that in my experience, the VAST majority of college-aged
people (the largest group of downloaders) either don't care that it's
immoral, or they just believe that music should be free.


I'm halfway.
I will download lots of pirate stuff, but not stuff I would ever have
bought in the first place.
OTOH, I do buy stuff if I think it is good enough.

--
Dirk

http://www.neopax.com/technomage/ - My new book
http://www.transcendence.me.uk/ - Transcendence UK
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/onetribe - Occult Talk Show

[Dirk Bruere at NeoPax]

On 04/01/2011 20:38, Danny T wrote:
A while back I read an article about Limewire being taken out of
service. There are so many sites like Rhapsody that I figured the
pirate days were behind us. 9 bucks lets you download everything you
can grab so you'd think people would be happy with that.

Enter Frostwire..... The new Limewire.

We're right back to where we started. Are people so cheap they can't
pay a monthly fee of 9 bucks? I've lost hope in people.

It means that musicians will have to go back to being musicians ie
playing music to people live.

--
Dirk

http://www.neopax.com/technomage/ - My new book
http://www.transcendence.me.uk/ - Transcendence UK
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/onetribe - Occult Talk Show

[Jenn[_2_]]

In article ,
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:

On 04/01/2011 20:38, Danny T wrote:
A while back I read an article about Limewire being taken out of
service. There are so many sites like Rhapsody that I figured the
pirate days were behind us. 9 bucks lets you download everything you
can grab so you'd think people would be happy with that.

Enter Frostwire..... The new Limewire.

We're right back to where we started. Are people so cheap they can't
pay a monthly fee of 9 bucks? I've lost hope in people.

It means that musicians will have to go back to being musicians ie
playing music to people live.

We don't do that now?

--
www.jennifermartinmusic.com

[George's Pro Sound Co.]

"Dirk Bruere at NeoPax" wrote in message
...
On 04/01/2011 22:02, Jenn wrote:
In article
,
Danny wrote:

A while back I read an article about Limewire being taken out of
service. There are so many sites like Rhapsody that I figured the
pirate days were behind us. 9 bucks lets you download everything you
can grab so you'd think people would be happy with that.

Enter Frostwire..... The new Limewire.

We're right back to where we started. Are people so cheap they can't
pay a monthly fee of 9 bucks? I've lost hope in people.

I can tell you that in my experience, the VAST majority of college-aged
people (the largest group of downloaders) either don't care that it's
immoral, or they just believe that music should be free.


I'm halfway.
I will download lots of pirate stuff, but not stuff I would ever have
bought in the first place.
OTOH, I do buy stuff if I think it is good enough.

--
so when you go to the store you only steal the junk and pay for the good
stuff as well?
if it is good enough you want it stop being a **** bag weasel and pay the
guy/or gal that created it

[Sam Trenholme]

Because of the stupid, insane, anti-buyer way the legal sites
like Amazon or eMusic sell music.
[...]
they refuse to sell you one on them, you would have to buy the who
album.

To be fair to Amazon: They are doing this only because some (certainly
not all) content providers want to sell things this way.

My experience buying mp3s at Amazon is that the majority of music can be
bought one song at a time, for anywhere from 89 cents to about $1.20
(Michael Jackson's stuff cost more just after he died).

Now, occassionally there is someone who still thinks they can relive the
90s [1] revenue stream the music industry had back when everyone had
their pesonal CD collection, forcing people to buy entire CDs to
have just one song [2], so they recreate this model of buying music on
Amazon. But that looks to be the exception, not the rule.

Also typical is how Amazon makes the "instant buy" button
so there is no second chance ... accidentally hit one, and you've bought it.

My experience with Amazon is that "one click shopping" has to be
explicitly enabled. Maybe they changed it to be explicitly disabled.

Sorry to be so off-topic, but this is a pet peeve.

You know, I think topic drift is natural on Usenet. Some of the most
interesting conversations are ones which aren't talking about whatever
the original topic was.

That in mind: Do you feel mp3s have good audio quality for classical
music? My experience is that old poorly encoded 128k mp3s sound like
crap but a well encoded 192k or higher mp3 usually sounds the same as
the CD. But, then again, I don't listen to that much classical.

- Sam

[1] Speaking of reliving the 1990s, I am posting this on Usenet. Yes,
Usenet. Most of the flamers and spammers have moved on, so it's
back to being a small tight-knit community again. Feels a bit like
a ghost town, though, with the large number of deserted once-active
newsgroups.

[2] In the 1990s, the music industry stopped selling singles because
they got more revenue forcing consumers to buy an entire CD just to
get one song. How much this contributed to the Napsterization of
the internet in the late 1990s is an open question; based on my
college experiece, I quite frankly would say not very much.

--
#Sam Trenholme http://samiam.org -- Usenet user since September 1993#
######## My email address is at http://samiam.org/mailme.php ########
# The following script works around an annoyance in the Nano Editor #
cat | awk '{a=a $0 "\n";if($0 ~ /[a-zA-Z0-9]/){printf("%s",a);a=""}}'

[Dirk Bruere at NeoPax]

On 09/01/2011 21:41, George's Pro Sound Co. wrote:
"Dirk Bruere at wrote in message
...
On 04/01/2011 22:02, Jenn wrote:
In article
,
Danny wrote:

A while back I read an article about Limewire being taken out of
service. There are so many sites like Rhapsody that I figured the
pirate days were behind us. 9 bucks lets you download everything you
can grab so you'd think people would be happy with that.

Enter Frostwire..... The new Limewire.

We're right back to where we started. Are people so cheap they can't
pay a monthly fee of 9 bucks? I've lost hope in people.

I can tell you that in my experience, the VAST majority of college-aged
people (the largest group of downloaders) either don't care that it's
immoral, or they just believe that music should be free.


I'm halfway.
I will download lots of pirate stuff, but not stuff I would ever have
bought in the first place.
OTOH, I do buy stuff if I think it is good enough.

--
so when you go to the store you only steal the junk and pay for the good
stuff as well?

I certainly would if the replication cost was effectively zero

if it is good enough you want it stop being a **** bag weasel and pay the
guy/or gal that created it

Certainly - but I'll pay what its worth to me, not what some record
company says.
I think around 10 cents a track is about right for the good stuff.
Less for the muzak.

--
Dirk

http://www.neopax.com/technomage/ - My new book
http://www.transcendence.me.uk/ - Transcendence UK
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/onetribe - Occult Talk Show

[Scott Dorsey]

Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:

Depends on whether you rely on million sales of $15 CDs.
If they all get pirated you are back to playing to real people who pay
entrance fees. A bit like traditional musicians.

I don't know what it's like in that part of the world, but in the classical
world out here, orchestras normally lose money on concerts, and these days
they aren't making money recording either. They could possibly survive on
donations, but donations are way down too.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Ron Capik[_3_]]

On 1/9/2011 8:16 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Dirk Bruere at wrote:

Depends on whether you rely on million sales of $15 CDs.
If they all get pirated you are back to playing to real people who pay
entrance fees. A bit like traditional musicians.

I don't know what it's like in that part of the world, but in the classical
world out here, orchestras normally lose money on concerts, and these days
they aren't making money recording either. They could possibly survive on
donations, but donations are way down too.
--scott
I'm gonna guess they also don't make much
on tee shirt sales. ;-)

Later...
Ron Capik
--

[Sam Trenholme]

so when you go to the store you only steal the junk and pay for the good
stuff as well?

I certainly would if the replication cost was effectively zero

OK, here's the deal. Let us suppose there is a reasonably small-time
band. They spend, oh, say $20,000 recording an album (and, if you want
an album to sound really great, it can very easily cost that much to
record it). They then work to recoup their costs by selling their music
on CD.

Unfortunately, no one buys the CD because everyone has the same attitude
you have, and feel they are entitled to having a free copy of it without
paying for it. (If this is not the position you are advocating, please
clarify)

What is the result? The band is $20,000 in the hole and never makes
another CD of music.

if it is good enough you want it stop being a **** bag weasel and pay the
guy/or gal that created it

Certainly - but I'll pay what its worth to me, not what some record
company says. I think around 10 cents a track is about right for the
good stuff.

That is not how capitalism works. If there is a given piece of music
out there that has a given price, you are free to either buy or not buy
the music at that cost. I am sure there is a lot of music out there
legally available for 10 cents a track or even for free. You are free
to buy this less expensive music if you feel paying $1 for a song is too
much.

Just because you feel a given piece of music costs too much does not
entitle you to the fruits of someone else's labor without compensating
them for their work.

My objection is not piracy per se...I understand people sometimes,
especially in this economy, have limited financial resources and,
especially overseas, there often times is no legal way to obtain a given
work of art (or program).

And, I will put it on the record that it is OK to download a crack if
the DRM for a given piece of software makes it impossible to use. For
exmaple, I downloaded a cracked version of an older video game to play
on my netbook, since it had a CD check, and my netbook doesn't have a CD
drive. But, as soon as I discovered I could download a legal copy of
the game at http://gog.com/, I deleted the pirated version and now use a
legal copy.

But, yes, piracy is a form of stealing, and, yes, pirated media
shouldn't be downloaded. If it is illegally downloaded, a reasonable
effort should be made to buy the legal version of said song/movie/TV
show/video game/program.

I also avoid piracy by using free software and media whenever possible.
For example, instead of pirating Photoshop, I use The Gimp to edit
images.

- Sam

--
#Sam Trenholme http://samiam.org -- Usenet user since September 1993#
######## My email address is at http://samiam.org/mailme.php ########
# The following script works around an annoyance in the Nano Editor #
cat | awk '{a=a $0 "\n";if($0 ~ /[a-zA-Z0-9]/){printf("%s",a);a=""}}'

[Dirk Bruere at NeoPax]

On 10/01/2011 03:45, Sam Trenholme wrote:
so when you go to the store you only steal the junk and pay for the good
stuff as well?

I certainly would if the replication cost was effectively zero

OK, here's the deal. Let us suppose there is a reasonably small-time
band. They spend, oh, say $20,000 recording an album (and, if you want
an album to sound really great, it can very easily cost that much to
record it). They then work to recoup their costs by selling their music
on CD.

Unfortunately, no one buys the CD because everyone has the same attitude
you have, and feel they are entitled to having a free copy of it without
paying for it. (If this is not the position you are advocating, please
clarify)

What is the result? The band is $20,000 in the hole and never makes
another CD of music.

No.
Because if its really good I'll buy it.
If it isn't I will not.
I still might download it to listen to it though.
They lose nothing, but gain the possibility that I *might* like it
enough to buy it.
That's been the situation with a number of bands eg Therion, Nightwish,
Rammstein

if it is good enough you want it stop being a **** bag weasel and pay the
guy/or gal that created it

Certainly - but I'll pay what its worth to me, not what some record
company says. I think around 10 cents a track is about right for the
good stuff.

That is not how capitalism works. If there is a given piece of music
out there that has a given price, you are free to either buy or not buy
the music at that cost. I am sure there is a lot of music out there
legally available for 10 cents a track or even for free. You are free
to buy this less expensive music if you feel paying $1 for a song is too
much.

Well, I guess Capitalism is going to have to find a new model eg cutting
out the middlemen and charging $1 instead of $10

Just because you feel a given piece of music costs too much does not
entitle you to the fruits of someone else's labor without compensating
them for their work.

I agree. It's the price we are negotiating.

My objection is not piracy per se...I understand people sometimes,
especially in this economy, have limited financial resources and,
especially overseas, there often times is no legal way to obtain a given
work of art (or program).

The most prolific pirates I know are also the biggest spenders on music

And, I will put it on the record that it is OK to download a crack if
the DRM for a given piece of software makes it impossible to use. For
exmaple, I downloaded a cracked version of an older video game to play
on my netbook, since it had a CD check, and my netbook doesn't have a CD
drive. But, as soon as I discovered I could download a legal copy of
the game at http://gog.com/, I deleted the pirated version and now use a
legal copy.

I almost never use pirated s/w, and never pirate from a small company.

But, yes, piracy is a form of stealing, and, yes, pirated media
shouldn't be downloaded. If it is illegally downloaded, a reasonable
effort should be made to buy the legal version of said song/movie/TV
show/video game/program.

Generally I do, but I certainly like to try before buy and it better be
at a reasonable price. Which means that in practice I buy shareware but
have no problems ripping off multibillion dollar companies selling $1000
packages. Usually, though, I will use a freeware alternative eg Open
Office etc. Because I rip something off does not mean that the company
loses money, because I would never buy it if I had to.

I also avoid piracy by using free software and media whenever possible.
For example, instead of pirating Photoshop, I use The Gimp to edit
images.

I use my old version of PaintShopPro
I have had a pirate copy of Photoshop, but did not like it.
The only other person I know who has a cracked copy of Photoshop is a 15
year old school girl, and there's no way in hell she could ever afford
it. Adobe *might* get lucky in future when she eventually gets a job and
insist on using it at work.

--
Dirk

http://www.neopax.com/technomage/ - My new book
http://www.transcendence.me.uk/ - Transcendence UK
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/onetribe - Occult Talk Show

[Dirk Bruere at NeoPax]

On 10/01/2011 01:16, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Dirk Bruere at wrote:

Depends on whether you rely on million sales of $15 CDs.
If they all get pirated you are back to playing to real people who pay
entrance fees. A bit like traditional musicians.

I don't know what it's like in that part of the world, but in the classical
world out here, orchestras normally lose money on concerts, and these days
they aren't making money recording either. They could possibly survive on
donations, but donations are way down too.
--scott

Well, since I don't rip off orchestras nor buy their CDs my influence is
neutral. In fact, the only bit of music I have ripped recently has been
ZZ Top. I bought their vinyl back in the 80s and lost it. I'm not going
to pay twice.

--
Dirk

http://www.neopax.com/technomage/ - My new book
http://www.transcendence.me.uk/ - Transcendence UK
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/onetribe - Occult Talk Show

[Dirk Bruere at NeoPax]

On 10/01/2011 01:49, Ron Capik wrote:
On 1/9/2011 8:16 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Dirk Bruere at wrote:

Depends on whether you rely on million sales of $15 CDs.
If they all get pirated you are back to playing to real people who pay
entrance fees. A bit like traditional musicians.

I don't know what it's like in that part of the world, but in the
classical
world out here, orchestras normally lose money on concerts, and these
days
they aren't making money recording either. They could possibly survive on
donations, but donations are way down too.
--scott
I'm gonna guess they also don't make much
on tee shirt sales. ;-)

Bow ties...

--
Dirk

http://www.neopax.com/technomage/ - My new book
http://www.transcendence.me.uk/ - Transcendence UK
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/onetribe - Occult Talk Show

[Danny T]

On Jan 9, 1:26*pm, Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
wrote:
On 04/01/2011 22:02, Jenn wrote:





In article
,
* Danny *wrote:

A while back I read an article about Limewire being taken out of
service. There are so many sites like Rhapsody that I figured the
pirate days were behind us. 9 bucks lets you download everything *you
can grab so you'd think people would be happy with that.

Enter Frostwire..... The new Limewire.

We're right back to where we started. Are people so cheap they can't
pay a monthly fee of 9 bucks? I've lost hope in people.

I can tell you that in my experience, the VAST majority of college-aged
people (the largest group of downloaders) either don't care that it's
immoral, or they just believe that music should be free.

I'm halfway.
I will download lots of pirate stuff, but not stuff I would ever have
bought in the first place.
OTOH, I do buy stuff if I think it is good enough.

--
Dirk

http://www.neopax.com/technomage/- My new bookhttp://www.transcendence.me..uk/- Transcendence UKhttp://www.blogtalkradio.com/onetribe- Occult Talk Show

And so you're a thief for something you don't really want or need.

[Danny T]

On Jan 9, 6:16*pm, Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
wrote:
On 09/01/2011 21:41, George's Pro Sound Co. wrote:





"Dirk Bruere at *wrote in message
...
On 04/01/2011 22:02, Jenn wrote:
In article
,
* *Danny * wrote:

A while back I read an article about Limewire being taken out of
service. There are so many sites like Rhapsody that I figured the
pirate days were behind us. 9 bucks lets you download everything *you
can grab so you'd think people would be happy with that.

Enter Frostwire..... The new Limewire.

We're right back to where we started. Are people so cheap they can't
pay a monthly fee of 9 bucks? I've lost hope in people.

I can tell you that in my experience, the VAST majority of college-aged
people (the largest group of downloaders) either don't care that it's
immoral, or they just believe that music should be free.

I'm halfway.
I will download lots of pirate stuff, but not stuff I would ever have
bought in the first place.
OTOH, I do buy stuff if I think it is good enough.

--
so when you go to the store you only steal the junk and pay for the good
stuff as well?

I certainly would if the replication cost was effectively zero

if it is good enough you want it stop being a **** bag weasel and pay the
guy/or gal that created it

Certainly - but I'll pay what its worth to me, not what some record
company says.
I think around 10 cents a track is about right for the good stuff.
Less for the muzak.

--
Dirk

http://www.neopax.com/technomage/- My new bookhttp://www.transcendence.me..uk/- Transcendence UKhttp://www.blogtalkradio.com/onetribe- Occult Talk Show

I think you should change your online name to Dirk the Jerk. You're
one of the hairs on the rats ass. Your attitude is ideologically so
far from decent that not many people with morals will ever like you
much. I'd suggest stepping back and looking at yourself with
discerning eyes. You might see what we see. And just because people
rape 7 year old girls in Brazil, doesn't make it right. Yes- Same
thing!

[Dirk Bruere at NeoPax]

On 10/01/2011 06:34, Danny T wrote:
On Jan 9, 6:16 pm, Dirk Bruere at
wrote:
On 09/01/2011 21:41, George's Pro Sound Co. wrote:





"Dirk Bruere at wrote in message
...
On 04/01/2011 22:02, Jenn wrote:
In article
,
Danny wrote:

A while back I read an article about Limewire being taken out of
service. There are so many sites like Rhapsody that I figured the
pirate days were behind us. 9 bucks lets you download everything you
can grab so you'd think people would be happy with that.

Enter Frostwire..... The new Limewire.

We're right back to where we started. Are people so cheap they can't
pay a monthly fee of 9 bucks? I've lost hope in people.

I can tell you that in my experience, the VAST majority of college-aged
people (the largest group of downloaders) either don't care that it's
immoral, or they just believe that music should be free.

I'm halfway.
I will download lots of pirate stuff, but not stuff I would ever have
bought in the first place.
OTOH, I do buy stuff if I think it is good enough.

--
so when you go to the store you only steal the junk and pay for the good
stuff as well?

I certainly would if the replication cost was effectively zero

if it is good enough you want it stop being a **** bag weasel and pay the
guy/or gal that created it

Certainly - but I'll pay what its worth to me, not what some record
company says.
I think around 10 cents a track is about right for the good stuff.
Less for the muzak.

--
Dirk

http://www.neopax.com/technomage/- My new bookhttp://www.transcendence.me.uk/- Transcendence UKhttp://www.blogtalkradio.com/onetribe- Occult Talk Show

I think you should change your online name to Dirk the Jerk. You're
one of the hairs on the rats ass. Your attitude is ideologically so
far from decent that not many people with morals will ever like you
much. I'd suggest stepping back and looking at yourself with
discerning eyes. You might see what we see. And just because people
rape 7 year old girls in Brazil, doesn't make it right. Yes- Same
thing!

Riiiiight...
So copying a file without permission is the same as raping a 7 year old
girl. Got it - I'll pass it on to all file sharers - I'm sure they will
take the revelation as seriously as it deserves.

--
Dirk

http://www.neopax.com/technomage/ - My new book
http://www.transcendence.me.uk/ - Transcendence UK
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/onetribe - Occult Talk Show

[Jenn[_2_]]

In article ,
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:

On 10/01/2011 07:49, Sam Trenholme wrote:
Well, since I don't rip off orchestras nor buy their CDs my influence is
neutral. In fact, the only bit of music I have ripped recently has been
ZZ Top. I bought their vinyl back in the 80s and lost it. I'm not going
to pay twice.

I hope you don't mind me asking you this, but what has caused you to be
in an economic position where paying $10 for a legal MP3 album is beyond
your budget:

I don't use mp3, only wav or flac
$10 is not beyond my budget, but I spent it on bands I really like.
And I certainly do not pay it for music I have already bought once. Hey!
bought the vinyl? Now try cassette! bought the cassette? Now buy CD... etc

No, you had the LP and you lost it, so now you want a new copy at the
expense of those who deserve to get paid.

--
www.jennifermartinmusic.com

[Sam Trenholme]

I don't use mp3, only wav or flac $10 is not beyond my budget, but I
spent it on bands I really like. And I certainly do not pay it for
music I have already bought once. Hey! bought the vinyl? Now try
cassette! bought the cassette? Now buy CD... etc

Dirk,

If you don't want to buy the CD after buying the vinyl, the correct way
to do that is to take a CD burner and record a copy of a turntable
playing the record (I did this with the favorite songs in my record
collection before getting rid of my old records).

If you have $10 to buy the MP3 album, and the means to buy online, but
don't like MP3s, you also have $7 to buy the CD version of the music
(it's really, really cheap).

No, even if you bought it once, that does not give you the moral right
to download it illegally if you lose it. Any more than it is OK to
shoplift a candy bay because you misplaced the candy bar you bought
yesterday.

Another idiot freetard [1] excuse brought to you by yet another thief
bull****ting himself trying to convince himself that what he is doing is
not really stealing.

- Sam

[1] Freetard means various things. I consider a freetard someone who
comes up with elaborate justifications for stealing intellectual
property. Such as "It's like a library", or "people have an
intrinsic desire to make art without regard to financial
compensation", or "they broadcast it on TV for free, so it's OK for
me to strip out the ads and upload it to The Pirate Bay", or "it's
not stealing, it's copyright infringement", or "music costs too much
so it's OK for me to download it for free", or "The RIAA/MPAA are
immoral, so it's OK for me to download their stuff", or "people
paying for intellectual property is an outdated business model", or
"Since Linux, open-source software, and the creative commons exist,
it's OK for me to download anything and everything".

--
#Sam Trenholme http://samiam.org -- Usenet user since September 1993#
######## My email address is at http://samiam.org/mailme.php ########
# The following script works around an annoyance in the Nano Editor #
cat | awk '{a=a $0 "\n";if($0 ~ /[a-zA-Z0-9]/){printf("%s",a);a=""}}'

[Dirk Bruere at NeoPax]

On 10/01/2011 08:12, Jenn wrote:
In ,
Dirk Bruere at wrote:

On 10/01/2011 07:49, Sam Trenholme wrote:
Well, since I don't rip off orchestras nor buy their CDs my influence is
neutral. In fact, the only bit of music I have ripped recently has been
ZZ Top. I bought their vinyl back in the 80s and lost it. I'm not going
to pay twice.

I hope you don't mind me asking you this, but what has caused you to be
in an economic position where paying $10 for a legal MP3 album is beyond
your budget:

I don't use mp3, only wav or flac
$10 is not beyond my budget, but I spent it on bands I really like.
And I certainly do not pay it for music I have already bought once. Hey!
bought the vinyl? Now try cassette! bought the cassette? Now buy CD... etc

No, you had the LP and you lost it, so now you want a new copy at the
expense of those who deserve to get paid.

"a new copy"
So, you're against backups eh?

--
Dirk

http://www.neopax.com/technomage/ - My new book
http://www.transcendence.me.uk/ - Transcendence UK
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/onetribe - Occult Talk Show

[Dirk Bruere at NeoPax]

On 10/01/2011 08:50, Sam Trenholme wrote:
I don't use mp3, only wav or flac $10 is not beyond my budget, but I
spent it on bands I really like. And I certainly do not pay it for
music I have already bought once. Hey! bought the vinyl? Now try
cassette! bought the cassette? Now buy CD... etc

Dirk,

If you don't want to buy the CD after buying the vinyl, the correct way
to do that is to take a CD burner and record a copy of a turntable
playing the record (I did this with the favorite songs in my record
collection before getting rid of my old records).

Technically illegal here IIRC.
But the law is unenforceable.

If you have $10 to buy the MP3 album, and the means to buy online, but
don't like MP3s, you also have $7 to buy the CD version of the music
(it's really, really cheap).

No, even if you bought it once, that does not give you the moral right
to download it illegally if you lose it. Any more than it is OK to

I think it does.

shoplift a candy bay because you misplaced the candy bar you bought
yesterday.

Wrong comparison.
Replicating a candy bar requires resources comparable to the creation of
the original bar. Replicating information does not.
The correct candy bar comparison would be for me to get all the
ingredients for a comparable candy bar and fabricate an identical copy
at my own expense in my kitchen. Not such a nifty comparison now, is it?

Another idiot freetard [1] excuse brought to you by yet another thief
bull****ting himself trying to convince himself that what he is doing is
not really stealing.

Times are changing and information as a commodity is going to need
different rules.
Those rules will evolve under the kind of pressures we are now seeing.
Ultimately, it will probably be along the lines of shareware, with the
middle men cut out.

--
Dirk

http://www.neopax.com/technomage/ - My new book
http://www.transcendence.me.uk/ - Transcendence UK
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/onetribe - Occult Talk Show

[Scott Dorsey]

Ron Capik wrote:
On 1/9/2011 8:16 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Dirk Bruere at wrote:

Depends on whether you rely on million sales of $15 CDs.
If they all get pirated you are back to playing to real people who pay
entrance fees. A bit like traditional musicians.

I don't know what it's like in that part of the world, but in the classical
world out here, orchestras normally lose money on concerts, and these days
they aren't making money recording either. They could possibly survive on
donations, but donations are way down too.

I'm gonna guess they also don't make much
on tee shirt sales. ;-)

I paid $15 for "Wotan Came Down From Valhalla And All I Got Was This Lousy
T-Shirt" but I can't imagine a lot of people often have opportunity to wear
such a thing.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Arny Krueger]

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message

Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:

Depends on whether you rely on million sales of $15 CDs.
If they all get pirated you are back to playing to real
people who pay entrance fees. A bit like traditional
musicians.

I don't know what it's like in that part of the world,
but in the classical world out here, orchestras normally
lose money on concerts, and these days they aren't making
money recording either. They could possibly survive on
donations, but donations are way down too. --scott

The problem is that the culture changed but nobody told the symphony
musicans about the natural consequences of such thing in such a way that
they believed it.

Interesting to me that the Detroit Symphony musicans are acting like they
are ignorant of these natural laws of economics after watching it happen to
the car companies for maybe 30-40 years.

They think that things like this only happen to other people, I guess.

[George's Pro Sound Co.]

"Jenn" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:

On 10/01/2011 07:49, Sam Trenholme wrote:
Well, since I don't rip off orchestras nor buy their CDs my influence
is
neutral. In fact, the only bit of music I have ripped recently has
been
ZZ Top. I bought their vinyl back in the 80s and lost it. I'm not
going
to pay twice.

I hope you don't mind me asking you this, but what has caused you to be
in an economic position where paying $10 for a legal MP3 album is
beyond
your budget:

I don't use mp3, only wav or flac
$10 is not beyond my budget, but I spent it on bands I really like.
And I certainly do not pay it for music I have already bought once. Hey!
bought the vinyl? Now try cassette! bought the cassette? Now buy CD...
etc

No, you had the LP and you lost it, so now you want a new copy at the
expense of those who deserve to get paid.

Jenn, Dirk is ok with being a piece of **** , nothing that is said or done
will change that.
he has my pity for how little he respects himself that he would be proud to
be stealing from creative talented people everywhere
on top of living in contempt he is just trolling now
best let him and his ilk be, ya can't rid the world of all the maggots
george

[Mr Soul]

Well that was a long article. He approaches things from a viewpoint
that I don'tsubscribe to so I find fault with his ideas. I think
we're basic. I think that if we are brought up to believe in the
humanist religion we act humanist. If we are brought up in another, we
act that way. Most people are humanists these days so most people
subscribe to the myth of "its all good". Since I am the unpopular man
out in Christianity, most would not understand my simple thoughts. I
just think people are selfish creeps that have been taught to think no
one else matters but themselves and the best thing to do is say screw
it and take what you can, give nothing back.- Hide quoted text -
Sorry but Christian-like is the last word that I would describe you to
someone who didn't know you. Narcissistic, arrogant, self-serving/
promoting would be the words that come to mind most quickly. And then
after you threatened to come to NH to beat me up, I would probably add
violent & mean to those ways.

Mike C

[Sam Trenholme]

he is just trolling now

I am starting to agree with you. I think it's getting time for me to
update my killfile.

- Sam

--
#Sam Trenholme http://samiam.org -- Usenet user since September 1993#
######## My email address is at http://samiam.org/mailme.php ########
# The following script works around an annoyance in the Nano Editor #
cat | awk '{a=a $0 "\n";if($0 ~ /[a-zA-Z0-9]/){printf("%s",a);a=""}}'

[Danny T]

On Jan 10, 12:59*am, Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
wrote:
On 10/01/2011 06:34, Danny T wrote:





On Jan 9, 6:16 pm, Dirk Bruere at
wrote:
On 09/01/2011 21:41, George's Pro Sound Co. wrote:

"Dirk Bruere at * *wrote in message
...
On 04/01/2011 22:02, Jenn wrote:
In article
,
* * Danny * * wrote:

A while back I read an article about Limewire being taken out of
service. There are so many sites like Rhapsody that I figured the
pirate days were behind us. 9 bucks lets you download everything *you
can grab so you'd think people would be happy with that.

Enter Frostwire..... The new Limewire.

We're right back to where we started. Are people so cheap they can't
pay a monthly fee of 9 bucks? I've lost hope in people.

I can tell you that in my experience, the VAST majority of college-aged
people (the largest group of downloaders) either don't care that it's
immoral, or they just believe that music should be free.

I'm halfway.
I will download lots of pirate stuff, but not stuff I would ever have
bought in the first place.
OTOH, I do buy stuff if I think it is good enough.

--
so when you go to the store you only steal the junk and pay for the good
stuff as well?

I certainly would if the replication cost was effectively zero

if it is good enough you want it stop being a **** bag weasel and pay the
guy/or gal that created it

Certainly - but I'll pay what its worth to me, not what some record
company says.
I think around 10 cents a track is about right for the good stuff.
Less for the muzak.

--
Dirk

http://www.neopax.com/technomage/-My new bookhttp://www.transcendence.me.uk/-Transcendence UKhttp://www.blogtalkradio.com/onetribe-Occult Talk Show

I think you should change your online name to Dirk the Jerk. You're
one of the hairs on the rats ass. Your attitude is ideologically so
far from decent that not many people with morals will ever like you
much. I'd suggest stepping back and looking at yourself with
discerning eyes. You might see what we see. And just because people
rape 7 year old girls in Brazil, doesn't make it right. Yes- Same
thing!

Riiiiight...
So copying a file without permission is the same as raping a 7 year old
girl. Got it - I'll pass it on to all file sharers - I'm sure they will
take the revelation as seriously as it deserves.

--
Dirk

http://www.neopax.com/technomage/- My new bookhttp://www.transcendence.me..uk/- Transcendence UKhttp://www.blogtalkradio.com/onetribe- Occult Talk Show

Justify your theft any way you can, but you're still a thief.

[Danny T]

On Jan 10, 9:44*am, Mr Soul wrote:
Well that was a long article. He approaches things from a viewpoint
that I don'tsubscribe to so I find fault with his ideas. I think
we're basic. I think that if we are brought up to believe in the
humanist religion we act humanist. If we are brought up in another, we
act that way. Most people are humanists these days so most people
subscribe to the myth of "its all good". Since I am the unpopular man
out in Christianity, most would not understand my simple thoughts. I
just think people are selfish creeps that have been taught to think no
one else matters but themselves and the best thing to do is say screw
it and take what you can, give nothing back.- Hide quoted text -

Sorry but Christian-like is the last word that I would describe you to
someone who didn't know you. *Narcissistic, arrogant, self-serving/
promoting would be the words that come to mind most quickly. *And then
after you threatened to come to NH to beat me up, I would probably add
violent & mean to those ways.

Mike C

Something tells me you are now trolling under the name of Dirk. Choose
a name and stick with it. It's not fair to make people think that
there are so many people to dislike when all of them are really just
the one you.