[Chu Gai]

My understanding is that a product that may be considered an
unintentional radiator of EMI/RFI and is to be sold to the general
public is required to meet FCC Part 15 to ensure that whatever levels
are present are sufficiently low that they do not cause problems with
other electronic components. What I don't know is how is this
compliance achieved? Does the vendor have to submit products for
testing or can they simply state that to their knowledge it doesn't
emit EMI/RFI? If the former, does that mean if an amp is available in
2/3/5/7 channels that each variant has to be tested?

The reason I ask is that many companies are using the B&O ICE modules
in their products. B&O supposedly has stated that their modules meet
applicable EMI/RFI requirements both in the US and overseas. However,
to my mind, that doesn't necessarily imply that the finished product
does especially since the vendor has various options including choice
of power supply and whatever else they do internally. Hence, I've seen
some products that have the FCC stamp on them and even in the manuals
while others don't. Answers to questions pertaining to this have been
very vague and generally come down to that B&O has already done the
necessary work. So, if the certification is required but people aren't
doing it, does that mean that they are in violation of laws/
regulations or what?

Arny, if you're reading this, what's your understanding?

[Richard Crowley]

"Chu Gai" wrote in message
...
My understanding is that a product that may be considered an
unintentional radiator of EMI/RFI and is to be sold to the general
public is required to meet FCC Part 15 to ensure that whatever levels
are present are sufficiently low that they do not cause problems with
other electronic components. What I don't know is how is this
compliance achieved? Does the vendor have to submit products for
testing or can they simply state that to their knowledge it doesn't
emit EMI/RFI? If the former, does that mean if an amp is available in
2/3/5/7 channels that each variant has to be tested?

Yes, products for commercial sale must be tested by an accredited
testing lab and the results submitted to the FCC. As you can imagine,
this is not inexpensive.

It is likely that all the variants must be tested also. Dunno if the
testing labs might offer a discount for multiple, closely-related
products?

The reason I ask is that many companies are using the B&O ICE modules
in their products. B&O supposedly has stated that their modules meet
applicable EMI/RFI requirements both in the US and overseas. However,
to my mind, that doesn't necessarily imply that the finished product
does especially since the vendor has various options including choice
of power supply and whatever else they do internally. Hence, I've seen
some products that have the FCC stamp on them and even in the manuals
while others don't. Answers to questions pertaining to this have been
very vague and generally come down to that B&O has already done the
necessary work. So, if the certification is required but people aren't
doing it, does that mean that they are in violation of laws/
regulations or what?

B&O cannot sell certification for their modules because they are
not a finished product. As you properly surmise, it is the finished
product with the power supply, packaging, etc. that must be tested
for FCC compliance.

However, there seem to be many companies out there who attempt
to skate right on by any kind of FCC approval. They are hoping
that they don't get caught, and many never do. But the ones that do
get caught are levied significant fines. Some just go out of business
rather than dealing with it.

[Eeyore]

Chu Gai wrote:

My understanding is that a product that may be considered an
unintentional radiator of EMI/RFI and is to be sold to the general
public is required to meet FCC Part 15 to ensure that whatever levels
are present are sufficiently low that they do not cause problems with
other electronic components.

Correct.

What I don't know is how is this compliance achieved?

By good design technique and confirmatory test.


Does the vendor have to submit products for
testing or can they simply state that to their knowledge it doesn't
emit EMI/RFI? If the former, does that mean if an amp is available in
2/3/5/7 channels that each variant has to be tested?

In the EU you can simply state it (self-declare). In the USA I believe you
have to submit at least a test report to the FCC who may possibly then
issue a licence number.


The reason I ask is that many companies are using the B&O ICE modules
in their products. B&O supposedly has stated that their modules meet
applicable EMI/RFI requirements both in the US and overseas. However,
to my mind, that doesn't necessarily imply that the finished product
does especially since the vendor has various options including choice
of power supply and whatever else they do internally.

That is correct.


Hence, I've seen
some products that have the FCC stamp on them and even in the manuals
while others don't. Answers to questions pertaining to this have been
very vague and generally come down to that B&O has already done the
necessary work. So, if the certification is required but people aren't
doing it, does that mean that they are in violation of laws/
regulations or what?

Arny, if you're reading this, what's your understanding?

As long as you're not using an SMPS (and you have an internal AC line
filter to stop noise radiating out - ideally one of those screened ones
that bolt direct to chassis) and you understand proper RF grounding
techniques as applied to audio, you are unlikely to have much trouble
passing any tests. With experience you will discover which bits are most
important.

Note for example the except for speaker outs, the grounds of connectors
should be either connected to chassis, or if insulated, then connected to
chassis very locall by say a 1-10nF capacitor.

Also ensure that any cover plate is firmly conductively bonded to the main
chassis (may require paint masking). Use electrogalvanised steel for this.

Graham

[Eeyore]

Richard Crowley wrote:

"Chu Gai" wrote

My understanding is that a product that may be considered an
unintentional radiator of EMI/RFI and is to be sold to the general
public is required to meet FCC Part 15 to ensure that whatever levels
are present are sufficiently low that they do not cause problems with
other electronic components. What I don't know is how is this
compliance achieved? Does the vendor have to submit products for
testing or can they simply state that to their knowledge it doesn't
emit EMI/RFI? If the former, does that mean if an amp is available in
2/3/5/7 channels that each variant has to be tested?

Yes, products for commercial sale must be tested by an accredited
testing lab and the results submitted to the FCC. As you can imagine,
this is not inexpensive.

Shop around. It doesn't have to be a US lab AFAIK, simply one that's
accredited.


It is likely that all the variants must be tested also. Dunno if the
testing labs might offer a discount for multiple, closely-related
products?

The reason I ask is that many companies are using the B&O ICE modules
in their products. B&O supposedly has stated that their modules meet
applicable EMI/RFI requirements both in the US and overseas. However,
to my mind, that doesn't necessarily imply that the finished product
does especially since the vendor has various options including choice
of power supply and whatever else they do internally. Hence, I've seen
some products that have the FCC stamp on them and even in the manuals
while others don't. Answers to questions pertaining to this have been
very vague and generally come down to that B&O has already done the
necessary work. So, if the certification is required but people aren't
doing it, does that mean that they are in violation of laws/
regulations or what?

B&O cannot sell certification for their modules because they are
not a finished product. As you properly surmise, it is the finished
product with the power supply, packaging, etc. that must be tested
for FCC compliance.

However, there seem to be many companies out there who attempt
to skate right on by any kind of FCC approval. They are hoping
that they don't get caught, and many never do. But the ones that do
get caught are levied significant fines. Some just go out of business
rather than dealing with it.

Behringer got caught and had to pay a $ 1 million fine IIRC. Largely I
suspect because they were slow to respond seriously.

Their defence that the products already met EU standards was not accepted.
FCC is (stupidly IMHO) different in some of its regs. It really ought to
adopt IEC standards like the rest of the world. It would life a lot easier.

Graham

[Richard Crowley]

"Eeyore" wrote ...
Their defence that the products already met EU standards was not accepted.
FCC is (stupidly IMHO) different in some of its regs. It really ought to
adopt IEC standards like the rest of the world. It would life a lot
easier.

The FCC seems significantly "dumbed-down" both administratively
and technically these days.

[Chu Gai]

On Aug 7, 8:56*am, Eeyore
wrote:
Richard Crowley wrote:
"Chu Gai" wrote

My understanding is that a product that may be considered an
unintentional radiator of EMI/RFI and is to be sold to the general
public is required to meet FCC Part 15 to ensure that whatever levels
are present are sufficiently low that they do not cause problems with
other electronic components. What I don't know is how is this
compliance achieved? Does the vendor have to submit products for
testing or can they simply state that to their knowledge it doesn't
emit EMI/RFI? If the former, does that mean if an amp is available in
2/3/5/7 channels that each variant has to be tested?

Yes, products for commercial sale must be tested by an accredited
testing lab and the results submitted to the FCC. As you can imagine,
this is not inexpensive.

Shop around. It doesn't have to be a US lab AFAIK, simply one that's
accredited.





It is likely that all the variants must be tested also. Dunno if the
testing labs might offer a discount for multiple, closely-related
products?

The reason I ask is that many companies are using the B&O ICE modules
in their products. B&O supposedly has stated that their modules meet
applicable EMI/RFI requirements both in the US and overseas. However,
to my mind, that doesn't necessarily imply that the finished product
does especially since the vendor has various options including choice
of power supply and whatever else they do internally. Hence, I've seen
some products that have the FCC stamp on them and even in the manuals
while others don't. Answers to questions pertaining to this have been
very vague and generally come down to that B&O has already done the
necessary work. So, if the certification is required but people aren't
doing it, does that mean that they are in violation of laws/
regulations or what?

B&O cannot sell certification for their modules because they are
not a finished product. As you properly surmise, it is the finished
product with the power supply, packaging, etc. that must be tested
for FCC compliance.

However, there seem to be many companies out there who attempt
to skate right on by any kind of FCC approval. They are hoping
that they don't get caught, and many never do. *But the ones that do
get caught are levied significant fines. Some just go out of business
rather than dealing with it.

Behringer got caught and had to pay a $ 1 million fine IIRC. Largely I
suspect because they were slow to respond seriously.

Their defence that the products already met EU standards was not accepted..
FCC is (stupidly IMHO) different in some of its regs. It really ought to
adopt IEC standards like the rest of the world. It would life a lot easier.

[Don Pearce]

Eeyore wrote:

Richard Crowley wrote:

"Chu Gai" wrote

My understanding is that a product that may be considered an
unintentional radiator of EMI/RFI and is to be sold to the general
public is required to meet FCC Part 15 to ensure that whatever levels
are present are sufficiently low that they do not cause problems with
other electronic components. What I don't know is how is this
compliance achieved? Does the vendor have to submit products for
testing or can they simply state that to their knowledge it doesn't
emit EMI/RFI? If the former, does that mean if an amp is available in
2/3/5/7 channels that each variant has to be tested?
Yes, products for commercial sale must be tested by an accredited
testing lab and the results submitted to the FCC. As you can imagine,
this is not inexpensive.

Shop around. It doesn't have to be a US lab AFAIK, simply one that's
accredited.



I have a product in FCC and EU testing right now - I'm using these
chaps. http://www.rnelectronics.com/ A couple of grand sees the whole
job done.

d

[Eeyore]

Don Pearce wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
Richard Crowley wrote:
"Chu Gai" wrote

My understanding is that a product that may be considered an
unintentional radiator of EMI/RFI and is to be sold to the general
public is required to meet FCC Part 15 to ensure that whatever levels
are present are sufficiently low that they do not cause problems with
other electronic components. What I don't know is how is this
compliance achieved? Does the vendor have to submit products for
testing or can they simply state that to their knowledge it doesn't
emit EMI/RFI? If the former, does that mean if an amp is available in
2/3/5/7 channels that each variant has to be tested?
Yes, products for commercial sale must be tested by an accredited
testing lab and the results submitted to the FCC. As you can imagine,
this is not inexpensive.

Shop around. It doesn't have to be a US lab AFAIK, simply one that's
accredited.

I have a product in FCC and EU testing right now - I'm using these
chaps. http://www.rnelectronics.com/ A couple of grand sees the whole
job done.

Interesting. How do you rate them ? Last lab I used was Semko UK.

Graham

[Don Pearce]

Eeyore wrote:

Don Pearce wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
Richard Crowley wrote:
"Chu Gai" wrote

My understanding is that a product that may be considered an
unintentional radiator of EMI/RFI and is to be sold to the general
public is required to meet FCC Part 15 to ensure that whatever levels
are present are sufficiently low that they do not cause problems with
other electronic components. What I don't know is how is this
compliance achieved? Does the vendor have to submit products for
testing or can they simply state that to their knowledge it doesn't
emit EMI/RFI? If the former, does that mean if an amp is available in
2/3/5/7 channels that each variant has to be tested?
Yes, products for commercial sale must be tested by an accredited
testing lab and the results submitted to the FCC. As you can imagine,
this is not inexpensive.
Shop around. It doesn't have to be a US lab AFAIK, simply one that's
accredited.
I have a product in FCC and EU testing right now - I'm using these
chaps. http://www.rnelectronics.com/ A couple of grand sees the whole
job done.

Interesting. How do you rate them ? Last lab I used was Semko UK.

Graham


I like them. Very friendly and a nice location just outside the M25.
They do a nice deal which lets you book a day in which to see if there
is anything nasty that really needs fixing. If all is OK, they just
carry on.

d

[Eeyore]

Don Pearce wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
Don Pearce wrote:
Eeyore wrote:
Richard Crowley wrote:
"Chu Gai" wrote

My understanding is that a product that may be considered an
unintentional radiator of EMI/RFI and is to be sold to the general
public is required to meet FCC Part 15 to ensure that whatever levels
are present are sufficiently low that they do not cause problems with
other electronic components. What I don't know is how is this
compliance achieved? Does the vendor have to submit products for
testing or can they simply state that to their knowledge it doesn't
emit EMI/RFI? If the former, does that mean if an amp is available in
2/3/5/7 channels that each variant has to be tested?
Yes, products for commercial sale must be tested by an accredited
testing lab and the results submitted to the FCC. As you can imagine,
this is not inexpensive.
Shop around. It doesn't have to be a US lab AFAIK, simply one that's
accredited.
I have a product in FCC and EU testing right now - I'm using these
chaps. http://www.rnelectronics.com/ A couple of grand sees the whole
job done.

Interesting. How do you rate them ? Last lab I used was Semko UK.


I like them. Very friendly and a nice location just outside the M25.
They do a nice deal which lets you book a day in which to see if there
is anything nasty that really needs fixing. If all is OK, they just
carry on.

Right, so you're not locked into a full test if an an obvious wobbly raises its
head ? It's a bit like doing pre-compliance testing with an inexpensive
consultant as we often did.

Sounds good.

Graham

[Chu Gai]

Thanks much for the replies folks. Let me add a wrinkle to this. I was
forwarded the following reply by someone who posed the question of FCC
certification to a vendor of amps. Now, I've got a couple of old amps
and receivers and they've all got the FCC logo. So, is this correct or
is it someone looking to skirt the issue?

FCC part 15 does not apply to our amplifiers as they are class A/B and not switching amps and therefore do not have oscillators operating in excess of 9000 cycles per second thus they are not intentional or unintentional radiators as specified by the FCC.

All of our equipment is CE certified which actually has a higher standard to that of the FCC ratings.

[Richard Crowley]

"Chu Gai" wrote ...
Thanks much for the replies folks. Let me add a wrinkle to this. I was
forwarded the following reply by someone who posed the question of FCC
certification to a vendor of amps. Now, I've got a couple of old amps
and receivers and they've all got the FCC logo. So, is this correct or
is it someone looking to skirt the issue?

FCC part 15 does not apply to our amplifiers as they are class A/B
and not switching amps and therefore do not have oscillators
operating in excess of 9000 cycles per second thus they are not
intentional or unintentional radiators as specified by the FCC.

That sounds right. But how does it relate to your original question?

All of our equipment is CE certified which actually has a higher
standard to that of the FCC ratings.

CE may very well be a higher standard than the FCC ratings.
But not clear what that has to do with ANYTHING? As has
already been observed here, the FCC doesn't accept foreign
compliance certifications.

[Chu Gai]

On Aug 9, 2:47*pm, "Richard Crowley" wrote:
"Chu Gai" *wrote ...

Thanks much for the replies folks. Let me add a wrinkle to this. I was
forwarded the following reply by someone who posed the question of FCC
certification to a vendor of amps. Now, I've got a couple of old amps
and receivers and they've all got the FCC logo. So, is this correct or
is it someone looking to skirt the issue?

FCC part 15 does not apply to our amplifiers as they are class A/B
and not switching amps and therefore do not have oscillators
operating in excess of 9000 cycles per second thus they are not
intentional or unintentional radiators as specified by the FCC.

That sounds right. But how does it relate to your original question?

All of our equipment is CE certified which actually has a higher
standard to that of the FCC ratings.

CE may very well be a higher standard than the FCC ratings.
But not clear what that has to do with ANYTHING? As has
already been observed here, the FCC doesn't accept foreign
compliance certifications.

It's just an extension to the original question, Richard. I'd thought
that FCC Part 15 B applied to all amplifiers regardless of type.
Perhaps I'm mistaken here.

[Richard Crowley]

"Chu Gai" wrote ...
I'd thought that FCC Part 15 B applied to all amplifiers
regardless of type. Perhaps I'm mistaken here.

The FCC is generally involved with things that generate radio
waves. Conventional audio equipment such as amplifiers, etc.
should not be generating radio waves unless they are defective.

Now if you have a switch-mode amplifier, or a switch-mode
power supply, then the FCC will likely be interested.

[Eeyore]

Chu Gai wrote:

Thanks much for the replies folks. Let me add a wrinkle to this. I was
forwarded the following reply by someone who posed the question of FCC
certification to a vendor of amps. Now, I've got a couple of old amps
and receivers and they've all got the FCC logo. So, is this correct or
is it someone looking to skirt the issue?

FCC part 15 does not apply to our amplifiers as they are class A/B and not switching amps and therefore do not have oscillators operating in excess of 9000 cycles per second thus they are not intentional or unintentional radiators as specified by the FCC.

All of our equipment is CE certified which actually has a higher standard to that of the FCC ratings.

My understanding is that FCC part 15B applies only to devices with intentional RF oscillators in them. So a simple audio amp would be exempt.

It's not exempt under CE though, so that statement is broadly true.

Graham

[Eeyore]

Richard Crowley wrote:

"Chu Gai" wrote ...
I'd thought that FCC Part 15 B applied to all amplifiers
regardless of type. Perhaps I'm mistaken here.

The FCC is generally involved with things that generate radio
waves. Conventional audio equipment such as amplifiers, etc.
should not be generating radio waves unless they are defective.

Now if you have a switch-mode amplifier, or a switch-mode
power supply, then the FCC will likely be interested.

Exactly.

Graham