Did some experiments on the fuse of my amp... I replaced a 500mA 250v
fuse with a 1.6a 125v fuse and found the sound much improved. Then I
decided to replace the 1.6a fuse with a jumper made of a silver
paperclip, and found the sound improved much further. Then I replaced
the paper clip with silver solder, and found it improved further
(though I'm less sure about the solder being better than the clip
overall...).

Question is: Exactly what risks are there in running an integrated amp
or a preamp sans fuse? I don't care so much about the gear blowing up,
since its old gear anyway. But nor do I want a fire started when I
leave the amp running all night or am not at home. In the case of the
preamp, the casing is solid metal, with the integrated, its a wood
casing. What are the chances of fire and how would it start? What are
the chances of it blowing up and how might that occur? (so far, no
problems!). Is electrical shock a risk with a fuseless amp?

wrote:

Did some experiments on the fuse of my amp... I replaced a 500mA 250v
fuse with a 1.6a 125v fuse and found the sound much improved. Then I
decided to replace the 1.6a fuse with a jumper made of a silver
paperclip, and found the sound improved much further. Then I replaced
the paper clip with silver solder, and found it improved further
(though I'm less sure about the solder being better than the clip
overall...).

Let me guess: It sounds much more warm without the fuse. LOL.

Question is: Exactly what risks are there in running an integrated amp
or a preamp sans fuse?

You could burn up the power supply, or it could catch on fire. Put the
damn fuse back in.


//Walt

This has to be the most nonsensical claim I've evr heard.
Do a search on the placebo effect.
Fuses don't do ANYTHING to the sound.
What a friggin moron.

wrote:

This has to be the most nonsensical claim I've evr heard.
Do a search on the placebo effect.
Fuses don't do ANYTHING to the sound.
What a friggin moron.

Do you always talk like this to people in real life, or only when
safely ensconced behind a computer? Because if you do, I imagine you
have no teeth by now, and its probably hard for you to type anything.

As for "the most nonsensical claim I ever heard", you only display your
extreme ignorance in matters of audio. First off, I didn't make any
"claim" on anything, I only mentioned what I did and heard in order to
find out more about the process. Secondly,
there are FAR more "nonsensical sounding claims" than the idea that
fuses contribute to sonic degradation. That doesn't make those claims
false. It just means you are an ignorant clueless asswipe, and you're
better off shutting your piehole when certain subjects on audio are
discussed that you dont know **** all about. You haven't even heard the
effect of what you are stupidly criticizing, in order to realize what
an ignorant asswipe you are in the first place. For one thing, Yves
Bernard André has fuses custom made for his amplifiers, and his
amplifiers are unanimously praised as sounding quite excellent. YOU are
the one that needs to "do the research" on the sonic effects of fuses,
since you're the one misguided by false information. When you can
design amplifiers of this calibre, you might have something relevant to
say here. But since you don't have anything useful to contribute to the
world, please refer back to my earlier advice about shutting your
ignorant piehole. Thank you.

Then both you AND Bernard Andre are fools.

wrote:

Then both you AND Bernard Andre are fools.

If Bernard Andre is able to sell his custom made fuses for 100 times
what he pays for them, he's no fool. The people who buy them OTOH....

//Walt

wrote:

Then both you AND Bernard Andre are fools.

Oh right, right. Why don't we add to that the names of countless other
audio engineers and enthusiasts who are all aware of the audibility of
fuses. I'm still waiting for that list of "world class amps" that you
designed, that qualifies you to put yourself above Yves Bernard André.
Are they sold only in Québec under the "McIntyre" name?

I for one would LOVE to hear one of your amplifiers, that you consider
to be better than his. And if you haven't designed amplifiers better
than his, or any at all, why the **** are you still jabbering away,
like a mindless fool? What part of "Your opinion is utterly wothless"
do you not understand?

On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 13:21:35 -0500, Walt
wrote:

wrote:

Did some experiments on the fuse of my amp... I replaced a 500mA 250v
fuse with a 1.6a 125v fuse and found the sound much improved. Then I
decided to replace the 1.6a fuse with a jumper made of a silver
paperclip, and found the sound improved much further. Then I replaced
the paper clip with silver solder, and found it improved further
(though I'm less sure about the solder being better than the clip
overall...).

Let me guess: It sounds much more warm without the fuse. LOL.

Question is: Exactly what risks are there in running an integrated amp
or a preamp sans fuse?

You could burn up the power supply, or it could catch on fire. Put the
damn fuse back in.


You can't fight Darwin. He'll only find some other way to fry himself.

d

Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

Walt wrote:
wrote:

Let me guess: It sounds much more warm without the fuse. LOL.

No, I wouldn't describe it as that. Without going into minute details,
the overall resolution is much higher.

Question is: Exactly what risks are there in running an integrated amp
or a preamp sans fuse?

You could burn up the power supply, or it could catch on fire. Put the
damn fuse back in.

Could you describe just what condtions would cause the power supply to
burn up or catch on fire (I would not have thought this component to be
flammable!)? As I say, I've been running it a couple of hours so far
and there's been no change. As a matter of fact, a few weeks ago I had
previously removed the heatsink from the output transistors in order to
improve the sound, and there was never any overheating problem.

wrote:
Walt wrote:
wrote:

Let me guess: It sounds much more warm without the fuse. LOL.

No, I wouldn't describe it as that. Without going into minute details,
the overall resolution is much higher.

Uh huh. Sure it is.

Question is: Exactly what risks are there in running an integrated amp
or a preamp sans fuse?

You could burn up the power supply, or it could catch on fire. Put the
damn fuse back in.


Could you describe just what condtions would cause the power supply to
burn up or catch on fire (I would not have thought this component to be
flammable!)? As I say, I've been running it a couple of hours so far
and there's been no change.

Fuses are for protection in case something goes wrong. As long as
nothing goes wrong, you don't need them at all. In that respect,
they're like seatbelts or smoke detectors. But if you do need them, you
really want to have them.

Put the fuse back in. If you don't know enough about electronics to
understand how a fuse works you shouldn't be messing around inside the case.

//Walt

Walt wrote:
wrote:
Walt wrote:
wrote:


Could you describe just what condtions would cause the power supply to
burn up or catch on fire (I would not have thought this component to be
flammable!)? As I say, I've been running it a couple of hours so far
and there's been no change.

Fuses are for protection in case something goes wrong. As long as
nothing goes wrong, you don't need them at all. In that respect,
they're like seatbelts or smoke detectors. But if you do need them, you
really want to have them.

Put the fuse back in. If you don't know enough about electronics to
understand how a fuse works you shouldn't be messing around inside the case.


All I'm asking is for information on what conditions would cause the
amp to catch on fire (ie. what exactly can go wrong and what exactly is
flammable inside an amp) so I can do a risk assessment and decide how
likely the risk of fire is. If you understand how a fuse works
yourself, you would be easily able to explain this, other than simply
repeating what you've read on a printed circuit board.



//Walt

wrote:

All I'm asking is for information on what conditions would cause the
amp to catch on fire (ie. what exactly can go wrong and what exactly is
flammable inside an amp) so I can do a risk assessment and decide how
likely the risk of fire is. If you understand how a fuse works
yourself, you would be easily able to explain this, other than simply
repeating what you've read on a printed circuit board.

Hey, I'm trying to do you a favor. Put the fuse back in. That's step
one. After you've done that we might be able to go on to step two.

Until then, put the fuse back in. Really.

//Walt

wrote:

All I'm asking is for information on what conditions would
cause the amp to catch on fire

A shortut caused by a failed transistor. A transistor WILL fail if its
core temperature gets too high, CORE temperature. All known audiophile
designs aim for heatsinks larger than average consumer designs because
the cost is less of an issue.

(ie. what exactly can go wrong and what exactly is
flammable inside an amp)

Insulation, laquer, pcb, radiated heat that ignites nearby objects,
worst case a spray of melted copper that ignites nearby objects +
hazardous gasses emitted.

so I can do a risk assessment

I trust you to be void of any capability to so do.

and decide how likely the risk of fire is.

At a guess, 0.8 within 5 years of operation with the output heat sink
removed.

If you understand how a fuse works
yourself, you would be easily able to explain this,

A fuse prevents too large current from being delivered in case of a
shortcut somewhere after the fuse.

other than simply repeating what you've read on a printed
circuit board.

Erm, themn folks here are them folks as writes what is on them printed
circuit boards. Those that have written the "no user serviceable parts,
refer to qualified service personnel" are their lawyers, same lawyers
also no doubt put a full page of warnings in the manual for the amp.
"Replace Fuse only with Fuse of same spec and rating" already is there",
as is "Do not interfere with cooling of amp" and a full page of not-to´s
in drawings with large crosses over for the illiterate.

They have also, as I, seen an amplifier emit smoke for no obvious
reason, which is to say that a large power amp is perfectly able to
start burning, in which case the fuse will stop it by stopping the
current that delivers the heat.

TAke the amp to a qualified repairshop and get it made back into what it
was ex works. If you want to actually improve it, then ask THEM whether
it is possible to retrofit larger capacity, max 50 to 100 percent more,
in the psu and increase the quisciescent current so that the amp
actually gets a wee bit hot when idling with the cooling in place. Both
tweaks may be possible, but understand that it may also be with any
given amp that there are good reasons against them. Standard class AB
amp supposed.

Thermic runaway is a very real risk if quisciescent current is increased
too much, but if the amp can run without cooling while idling now, then
it is likely to be on the low side of specs ex works. Perhaps even
asking them to set it correctly as per the service manual will be what
gives you a real improvement effect. This based on the known fact that
quisciescent current increases when an output stage runs hotter and
giving you the benefit of the doubt.

For sonic improvement the default advice with a pre-existing
installation is: first get the loudpsekaers properly placed in the room,
next fix issues with the room, next look into transduxer quality, and
then, and only then look into electronics quality.

//Walt


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

--
*******************************************
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
*******************************************

On 24 Jan 2006 10:30:24 -0800, wrote:


Walt wrote:
wrote:

Let me guess: It sounds much more warm without the fuse. LOL.

No, I wouldn't describe it as that. Without going into minute details,
the overall resolution is much higher.

Question is: Exactly what risks are there in running an integrated amp
or a preamp sans fuse?

You could burn up the power supply, or it could catch on fire. Put the
damn fuse back in.

Could you describe just what condtions would cause the power supply to
burn up or catch on fire (I would not have thought this component to be
flammable!)? As I say, I've been running it a couple of hours so far
and there's been no change. As a matter of fact, a few weeks ago I had
previously removed the heatsink from the output transistors in order to
improve the sound, and there was never any overheating problem.

What you need to do is remove the heat sink again ( that was a good
start). Now pack the heads of matches around the output devices, and
fix a can of lighter fluid close to them. Actually, a couple of
disposable lighters will do as well.

That should achieve the effect you are seeking. Play some music loudly
to complete the picture.

d

Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

Well it certainly isn't going to be people like you that others will
praise for advancing the state of music reproduction. You're not a
heavy thinker but, you make a good follower. I guess.


Don Pearce wrote:
On 24 Jan 2006 10:30:24 -0800, wrote:


Walt wrote:
wrote:

Let me guess: It sounds much more warm without the fuse. LOL.

No, I wouldn't describe it as that. Without going into minute details,
the overall resolution is much higher.

Question is: Exactly what risks are there in running an integrated amp
or a preamp sans fuse?

You could burn up the power supply, or it could catch on fire. Put the
damn fuse back in.

Could you describe just what condtions would cause the power supply to
burn up or catch on fire (I would not have thought this component to be
flammable!)? As I say, I've been running it a couple of hours so far
and there's been no change. As a matter of fact, a few weeks ago I had
previously removed the heatsink from the output transistors in order to
improve the sound, and there was never any overheating problem.

What you need to do is remove the heat sink again ( that was a good
start). Now pack the heads of matches around the output devices, and
fix a can of lighter fluid close to them. Actually, a couple of
disposable lighters will do as well.

That should achieve the effect you are seeking. Play some music loudly
to complete the picture.

d

Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

On 24 Jan 2006 10:52:35 -0800, wrote:

I guess.

So we can see. I suggest you stop guessing, and start thinking.

d

Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

Best if your in the house when the thing goes up.
You can get your Darwin award....putz.

wrote in message
oups.com...

Walt wrote:
wrote:

Let me guess: It sounds much more warm without the fuse. LOL.

No, I wouldn't describe it as that. Without going into minute details,
the overall resolution is much higher.

Question is: Exactly what risks are there in running an integrated amp
or a preamp sans fuse?

You could burn up the power supply, or it could catch on fire. Put the
damn fuse back in.

Could you describe just what condtions would cause the power supply to
burn up or catch on fire (I would not have thought this component to be
flammable!)? As I say, I've been running it a couple of hours so far
and there's been no change. As a matter of fact, a few weeks ago I had
previously removed the heatsink from the output transistors in order to
improve the sound, and there was never any overheating problem.


In a fault condition. That's why there is a fuse in the first place. A
'normal' current is the criteria determining minimum fuse rating..

geoff

writes:

Walt wrote:
wrote:

Let me guess: It sounds much more warm without the fuse. LOL.

No, I wouldn't describe it as that. Without going into minute details,
the overall resolution is much higher.

Question is: Exactly what risks are there in running an integrated amp
or a preamp sans fuse?

You could burn up the power supply, or it could catch on fire. Put the
damn fuse back in.

Could you describe just what condtions would cause the power supply to
burn up or catch on fire (I would not have thought this component to be
flammable!)?

Let's think your amplifier has a transformer that is designed togive out
100W output power at 90% effeciency. So when amplifier takes 100W,
then tranformer has 10W loss and this is what gets it somewhat warm
(transformer takes somwehat less power loss when it not fully loaded).
If the transformer secondary gots shorted (insulation on transformer
secondary wires fails and thei copper ouches each other, amplifier
brige rectifier fails short, transformer main storage capacitor fails
short or amplifier main output transformer fail fully short...).
In this case the transformer secondary is practically short circuited,
and transformer tries to push as much power as it can to the output...
taking this power from the input. Typically you can expect this
input power become something like 10 times the nominal power power
of the transformer (or somewhat more or less depending on transformer
design, but 10 times is a quite good approximation for average transformer).
No actual power is transported out of tranformer (output is shorted
so lots of current flows but no voltage, thus no power, in actual life
there is some voltage so some little power gets here as well).
So that 100W transformer is now taking in 1000W of and outputting
practically nothing, thus there is 1000W power heatring tht transformer
that was designed to handle 10W heating power loss in it...
You can think how quicly and how hot the transformer and wiring
inside it quicly becomes where is one kilowatt of power heating that
quite small transformer!!

As I say, I've been running it a couple of hours so far
and there's been no change. As a matter of fact, a few weeks ago I had
previously removed the heatsink from the output transistors in order to
improve the sound, and there was never any overheating problem.

You stupid! Heatsinks on the output transistors are there
for a very good reasons. The output transistors have considerable
power loss and get hot. If you remove the heatsinks, then the
transistors gets mugh hotter much sooner. When transistor gets
hot it's parameters change, causing first poor operation of
amplifier (worse sound easily), then starting to smell bad
(your figerprints on the cases start buring...), and then transistors
fail short... not always in this order.

Your amplifier if you are lucky might work some time without
the heatsinks if you play at very low volume... if you use
higher volumes or play longer time, it is very propable that sooner
or later your output transistors fail! The hotter they run the
sooner they fail!

So sooner or later I expect that your output transistors will
fail short... this will cause quite propably a chain-reaction
that would in normal case burn your amplifier fuse...
When you have removed the fuse, then in this case I expect you
get the smome coming out sooner or later from your autput
transistors, amplifier power transformer and/or your speakers.
And possibly flames soon after that..

--
Tomi Engdahl (http://www.iki.fi/then/)
Take a look at my electronics web links and documents at
http://www.epanorama.net/

Tomi Holger Engdahl
25 jan 07:35 afficher les options

writes:
Did some experiments on the fuse of my amp... I replaced a 500mA 250v
fuse with a 1.6a 125v fuse and found the sound much improved. Then I
decided to replace the 1.6a fuse with a jumper made of a silver
paperclip, and found the sound improved much further. Then I replaced
the paper clip with silver solder, and found it improved further
(though I'm less sure about the solder being better than the clip
overall...).


I doubt that you could hear the difference of changing the fuse,
especially if you are changing the main amplifier use.

Yeah right. You and all the other queenies on this group, who've gone
to great lengths to attack me for this, because it defies your stupid
old religious beliefs. There are enough of you shouting "You are not
hearing differences, you are hearing placebos...", that you sound like
a chorus of drooling imbeciles to me. But I didn't ask for your opinion
or anyone else's on the question of whether the fuse tweak is audible
or not, did I? Unlike you and your cabal of religious audio zealots, I
have a mind of my own and a pair of ears that go with it. I can decide
for myself. Since you HAVEN'T heard the effects of this yourself, do
yourself a favor and shut your ****ing trap about things you know
nothing about, next time you offer your opinion on something to
someone. If you did ever want to learn something new and not just
repeat what you're told, it would have taken you less time to conduct
the same experiment I did and find out for yourself, than it did to
formulate your response here.


I think what you heard is caused memery by the psychological effect
that you though you were improving the device by changing the
fuse.

aka "placebo". Yeah, I get it, Einstein. You're a dumbass ****wit who
thinks the world begins and ends with the very limited amount of
information you've learned about electronics. You don't know just how
ignorant you are and how little you know about audio. Im sure you know
more about electronics, but Ive forgotten more about music reproduction
than you now know. But since you think you're smarter than the top
engineer at YBA, why don't you name the world class amp YOU designed,
so I can have a listen and compare it? Just to make it easy on you,
I'll compare it to YBAs ****tiest amplifier. If you haven't designed
anything better, then there's another reason for you to shut the ****
up about things you know nothing about.

I quess that in real life systems if changing that fuse had
any noticeable effect on the audio amplifier, that amplifier
was not well designed, and turnign other loads on your house
on/off would have more effect on the amplifier performance
than changing the fuse.

Wrong guess. I already mentioned elsewhere that I did the same fuse
substitution thing to my other amp, my cd player, etc., it all had the
same effect of improving the sound. Like I also said elsewhere in this
thread, you wanna-be engineers always rationalize things you don't
understand, because they don't follow what you think is true according
to your religious beliefs in audio (and which often, isn't). STOP
guessing and do the damn experiment for yourself, or shut up already.
"Guessing" is what people did when they tried to explain why the sky
was leaking, you blithering idiot. "Science" is what led the more
developed man to experiment, find out where the truth lies, and stop
the ****ing guessing. Why is why I will always be way ahead of the
(audio) game than you and your RAT zealots here.

It is dangerous to run equipment without fuse or wrong size fuse.
It can easily burn down your house. And if your insurance company
finds out that you intentianally replaces your fuses with
something else, they most definately will not pay any money to you.
So if this gambling you made on operating equipment without proper
fuses blows, you will need to start thinking what is to live
without your house and things inside it and no compensation for
them. And possibley killing/injuring/harming somebody else living on the
house or nearby, and getting sued because of the illegal electrical
modifications you made to your equipment that caused that fire!

But I think the important thing here is, "Jesus will forgive me". Hey,
if He can forgive a child pornographer like Arny Krueger, I'm sure he
can forgive me for wanting to improve the sound of my audio system. I'm
not worried about the insurance company paying out, since I don't have
an insurance policy. I.m not worried about getting sued, since the
lawyers would cost more than anything they could ever hope to get out
of me. I'm not worried about killing my neighbors, since I hate my
neighbors (they have a baby kid thats CONSTANTLY crying all the time -
just shutting him up for good might be worth the damage to my
property). And as for that property in question, well I'm currently
developing a "volunatry simplicity" approach, and I'm not attached to
material things any more. So maybe having my things destroyed is
exactly what I need to free myself. Spiritually speaking. And as my
dear old dad always said, "if you never gamble, you never win".

Hard to say. But there are real changes.
As you know from other electrical equipment, they will not
last forever.. usually fail within 5-20 years more or less...

Maybe todays cheap **** gear, but both these SS amps are over 25 years
old, and they don't look to be close to failing.


As I say, I've been running it a couple of hours so far
and there's been no change. As a matter of fact, a few weeks ago I had
previously removed the heatsink from the output transistors in order to
improve the sound, and there was never any overheating problem.


You stupid!

Now that's very rude of you to call me names like that. Especially when
YOU'RE the ignorant **** who pretends to be an expert on issues that
you clearly don't know what the hell you're talking about. As we shall
see below....

Heatsinks on the output transistors are there
for a very good reasons. The output transistors have considerable
power loss and get hot. If you remove the heatsinks, then the
transistors gets mugh hotter much sooner. When transistor gets
hot it's parameters change, causing first poor operation of
amplifier (worse sound easily), then starting to smell bad
(your figerprints on the cases start buring...), and then transistors
fail short... not always in this order.

I'm sorry that reality has a way of proving the theoretical world in
which you live to be WRONG you ignoramus, but you can stop blabbing
now, because nothing you've said here has turned out to be true. This
is what I try to drum into the heads of you dumbass wanna-be techies:
when you have NO real-world experience of what you're talking about,
and you just repeat by rote whatever the hell you've read in Popular
Electronics, that does not make you an expert on ANYTHING. I can tell
you without flinching that a month ago, I took out the heatsinks in
both the aforementioned preamp and amplifier (the amp had a
particularly massive heatsink, and an equally massive output transistor
array). Why? Because I thought it'd improve the sound. And it most
certainly DID. In BOTH components. So that already shoots down your
theoretical BS about "worse sound easily". I also removed a wire that
was screwed into the large output transistor array (soldered at the
other end to the underside of the circuit board). I don't know what
that was for (some sort of grounding I would presume), but I do know
that removing it from the surface of the output transistor further
improved the sound.

Next, about the heat: there WAS none. I carefully monitored the heat
output in both the amp and preamp after I took the heatsink out. There
was very little, if any, warmth coming through the grill in the casing
above the heatsink. Thats pretty much normal for this amp, it never got
hot. I played music through the amp all night to test it out, it was
fine the next day. I even touched the output transistors with my bare
fingers after leaving both components on for hours. Guess what, dumbo?
They were no hotter than warm. No "bad smell" (well, no worse than with
this stuff already smelled like!). So much for all your stupid bull****
about how they'll get "much hotter much sooner" and I will fry my amp.
The only thing you wrote that was correct here, is that the parameters
change when transistors get hotter (but NOT in the ways you predicted).
I already knew that from experiences with my Class A amp. That's why I
took out the heatsinks in the first place, genius.

Well, Tomi, I hope you've learned something here about what you don't
know about audio. And if not, then you're even stupider than I give you
credit for.


Your amplifier if you are lucky might work some time without
the heatsinks if you play at very low volume... if you use
higher volumes or play longer time, it is very propable that sooner
or later your output transistors fail! The hotter they run the
sooner they fail!

Yeah, yeah, blah blah blah... see above for why you are a presuptious
fool, and don't know what you're talking about. Ive worked this amp for
over a month without heatsink at loud volumes, day and night, never had
a problem. Im so confident it has no detrimental effect on the amp, Ive
already thrown out the heatsink. My concnlusion is that sometimes these
things are added in order to prevent failures when used in a variety of
ways, but just because theyre desinged in, does not mean they're always
needed. And ive PROVEN they can do more harm than good. Lets see one of
you crackerheads actually prove ANYTHING that youve been saying.


So sooner or later I expect that your output transistors will
fail short... this will cause quite propably a chain-reaction
that would in normal case burn your amplifier fuse...

Wrong again, chumly. If they haven't burnt out after playing loud music
for a months time, then they're simply not going to (not for reasons of
overheating, since they dont get that hot!). Surely you must tire of
being wrong all the time... The only chain reaction I see is that when
one of you posts some ignorant BS to me, it incites another to do the
same.



When you have removed the fuse, then in this case I expect you
get the smome coming out sooner or later from your autput
transistors, amplifier power transformer and/or your speakers.
And possibly flames soon after that..

The only flames I see is from the RATs on this newsgroup because I
dared say something in their presence that contradicts all of your
inane religious beliefs....




--
Tomi Engdahl (http://www.iki.fi/then/)
Take a look at my electronics web links and documents at
http://www.epanorama.net/

wrote in message
oups.com...

Yeah right. You and all the other queenies on this group, who've gone
to great lengths to attack me for this, because it defies your stupid
old religious beliefs.

You are the one with relgious beliefs. We are objective.

geoff

Let me toss the ball back into your court. Assuming this effect is real,
what can you tell us about it and what measurements have you made? Was it
accompanied by a change in the output voltage from the amplifier's power
supply? How long had the amplifier gone unused before you did the
experiment, and could it be improving simply because the electrolytic
capacitors are re-forming after a long period of disuse? What was the
nature of the change in the audio output -- have you measured distortion,
frequency response, etc.? Have you compared old and new fuses with the same
electrical ratings? Can anyone other than you hear the difference?

writes:

Tomi Holger Engdahl
25 jan 07:35 afficher les options

writes:
Did some experiments on the fuse of my amp... I replaced a 500mA 250v
fuse with a 1.6a 125v fuse and found the sound much improved. Then I
decided to replace the 1.6a fuse with a jumper made of a silver
paperclip, and found the sound improved much further. Then I replaced
the paper clip with silver solder, and found it improved further
(though I'm less sure about the solder being better than the clip
overall...).


I doubt that you could hear the difference of changing the fuse,
especially if you are changing the main amplifier use.

Yeah right. You and all the other queenies on this group, who've gone
to great lengths to attack me for this, because it defies your stupid
old religious beliefs. There are enough of you shouting "You are not
hearing differences, you are hearing placebos...", that you sound like
a chorus of drooling imbeciles to me. But I didn't ask for your opinion
or anyone else's on the question of whether the fuse tweak is audible
or not, did I?

You might not have asked the question of whether the fuse tweak is audible
or not, but when posting this kind of things questions to the newsgroups,
you should be prepared to also be ready to take the commends that
doubt the general idea of your modification.

I have gone to the lengths of describing the the dangers of running
the equipment without any fuse. And given few words on why the general
idea of running the equipment without fuse is bad, and does not have
any considerable effect on sound reproduction. If there is any
effect on the exhanging the fuse, then other changing effects around
(mains voltage varitions, equipment temperature, RFI) etc. have much
more effect on sound reproduction than that fuse has!

My experices on the on this field are not just my beliefs.
I have anysed the siautaion on my eariler posting based on
well recognized electrical/electronics circuit theory.
And I have also practical experience: I have designed and built
my own audio equipment, I have repaired some of my own audio equipment etc..
I have operated the same audio equipment on my test bench with
original fuze, with wrong size fuse and even with fuse temporarily
short circuited with piece of wire when ruight fuse has been
missing (typically in well controlled environment where
the equipment is constantly monired..). There are some years
on those experiments, but I don't remeber ever hearing any difference
when changing the mains fuse to another or replacing with short circuit.

Unlike you and your cabal of religious audio zealots, I
have a mind of my own and a pair of ears that go with it.

I have also pair of ears. And I use them.

I can decide for myself.

You are free to make your won decisions, and we are all
free in this open forums to make our own desicisions
and pos them here if we want. This is a free world and open
public forum.

Since you HAVEN'T heard the effects of this yourself, do
yourself a favor and shut your ****ing trap about things you know
nothing about, next time you offer your opinion on something to
someone.

I haven't heard the difference on my experiments I have made
on my laboratory table. And I have not heard your system so
hard to say.

I am free to offer my opinion on this forum.
As free as you are to express your own.

And I think is know pretty much in the things I talk about here.
I think this there pretty many things in my home country and users
of this discussion group who agree on this with me.

If you did ever want to learn something new and not just
repeat what you're told, it would have taken you less time to conduct
the same experiment I did and find out for yourself, than it did to
formulate your response here.

I have conducted prety many experiment on many audio things..
Experiemtnally tested many things before believing them.

I think what you heard is caused memery by the psychological effect
that you though you were improving the device by changing the
fuse.

aka "placebo". Yeah, I get it, Einstein. You're a dumbass ****wit who
thinks the world begins and ends with the very limited amount of
information you've learned about electronics.

You have misjudged me.

You don't know just how
ignorant you are and how little you know about audio. Im sure you know
more about electronics, but Ive forgotten more about music reproduction
than you now know. But since you think you're smarter than the top
engineer at YBA,

Where have I said that that I claim to be smarter than the too engineer at YBA ?

why don't you name the world class amp YOU designed,
so I can have a listen and compare it?

Name one you designed.

Just to make it easy on you,
I'll compare it to YBAs ****tiest amplifier. If you haven't designed
anything better, then there's another reason for you to shut the ****
up about things you know nothing about.

I quess that in real life systems if changing that fuse had
any noticeable effect on the audio amplifier, that amplifier
was not well designed, and turnign other loads on your house
on/off would have more effect on the amplifier performance
than changing the fuse.

Wrong guess. I already mentioned elsewhere that I did the same fuse
substitution thing to my other amp, my cd player, etc., it all had the
same effect of improving the sound.

How did the sound really improve ?
Can you describe how did that removing the fuse help.

Like I also said elsewhere in this
thread, you wanna-be engineers always rationalize things you don't
understand, because they don't follow what you think is true according
to your religious beliefs in audio (and which often, isn't). STOP
guessing and do the damn experiment for yourself, or shut up already.

I don't need to repeat the experiments.

I have hear didfferences between different CD players, amplifiers,
speakes, even between some cables...
Changing the mains fuse to another has not made absolutely no
difference on the sound heard on the systems.

"Guessing" is what people did when they tried to explain why the sky
was leaking, you blithering idiot. "Science" is what led the more
developed man to experiment, find out where the truth lies, and stop
the ****ing guessing. Why is why I will always be way ahead of the
(audio) game than you and your RAT zealots here.

I have done experimenting on many audio things.

And on those experiements I have also learned how easy it is
to fool your hearing by the beliefs.. Ever been in "blind test"
where you just try to hear the difference without previous
knowlege on the things you test...

It is dangerous to run equipment without fuse or wrong size fuse.
It can easily burn down your house. And if your insurance company
finds out that you intentianally replaces your fuses with
something else, they most definately will not pay any money to you.
So if this gambling you made on operating equipment without proper
fuses blows, you will need to start thinking what is to live
without your house and things inside it and no compensation for
them. And possibley killing/injuring/harming somebody else living on the
house or nearby, and getting sued because of the illegal electrical
modifications you made to your equipment that caused that fire!

But I think the important thing here is, "Jesus will forgive me". Hey,
if He can forgive a child pornographer like Arny Krueger, I'm sure he
can forgive me for wanting to improve the sound of my audio system. I'm
not worried about the insurance company paying out, since I don't have
an insurance policy. I.m not worried about getting sued, since the
lawyers would cost more than anything they could ever hope to get out
of me. I'm not worried about killing my neighbors, since I hate my
neighbors (they have a baby kid thats CONSTANTLY crying all the time -
just shutting him up for good might be worth the damage to my
property). And as for that property in question, well I'm currently
developing a "volunatry simplicity" approach, and I'm not attached to
material things any more. So maybe having my things destroyed is
exactly what I need to free myself. Spiritually speaking. And as my
dear old dad always said, "if you never gamble, you never win".

That's your view.

On my viewpoint what you are doing with your equipment is plain stupid
and potentially dangerous! Even if it had some noticeable effect on the
system perfomance (which I very much doubt), I think the risk/reward
ratio is not good on your approach. That's my optinion.

Hard to say. But there are real changes.
As you know from other electrical equipment, they will not
last forever.. usually fail within 5-20 years more or less...
Maybe todays cheap **** gear, but both these SS amps are over 25 years
old, and they don't look to be close to failing.

Components do age! And you can't see that with your eyes.


As I say, I've been running it a couple of hours so far
and there's been no change. As a matter of fact, a few weeks ago I had
previously removed the heatsink from the output transistors in order to
improve the sound, and there was never any overheating problem.
You stupid!

Now that's very rude of you to call me names like that. Especially when
YOU'RE the ignorant **** who pretends to be an expert on issues that
you clearly don't know what the hell you're talking about. As we shall
see below...

Maybe I as a rude. Sorry on that.
Usually you need to be a little bit rude to weak up people that are
doign stupid dangerous things.

You said that:
"YOU'RE the ignorant **** who pretends to be an expert on issues that
you clearly don't know what the hell you're talking about."

Based on the postings you have posted here I think pretty much
same about you.
And I am free to keep my opinion until there is a reason to change that.

Heatsinks on the output transistors are there
for a very good reasons. The output transistors have considerable
power loss and get hot. If you remove the heatsinks, then the
transistors gets mugh hotter much sooner. When transistor gets
hot it's parameters change, causing first poor operation of
amplifier (worse sound easily), then starting to smell bad
(your figerprints on the cases start buring...), and then transistors
fail short... not always in this order.

I'm sorry that reality has a way of proving the theoretical world in
which you live to be WRONG you ignoramus, but you can stop blabbing
now, because nothing you've said here has turned out to be true. This
is what I try to drum into the heads of you dumbass wanna-be techies:
when you have NO real-world experience of what you're talking about,

I have real world experice. But you don't seem to believe that.

and you just repeat by rote whatever the hell you've read in Popular
Electronics, that does not make you an expert on ANYTHING.

I don't repeat what I have read in Popular Electronics.
I don't read that magazine..

I can tell
you without flinching that a month ago, I took out the heatsinks in
both the aforementioned preamp and amplifier (the amp had a
particularly massive heatsink, and an equally massive output transistor
array). Why? Because I thought it'd improve the sound. And it most
certainly DID. In BOTH components.

What was your initial jurgement on thinking why removing them would
improve sound ?

So that already shoots down your
theoretical BS about "worse sound easily".

I am talking on experience here.. I have expriemtned with
transistor amplifier circuits... and run transistors without
heatsik when they should have had one... and hard and seen effects
that happen when you run them for some time...
Burned few fingers and transistors back them.

I also removed a wire that
was screwed into the large output transistor array (soldered at the
other end to the underside of the circuit board). I don't know what
that was for (some sort of grounding I would presume), but I do know
that removing it from the surface of the output transistor further
improved the sound.

Next, about the heat: there WAS none. I carefully monitored the heat
output in both the amp and preamp after I took the heatsink out. There
was very little, if any, warmth coming through the grill in the casing
above the heatsink. Thats pretty much normal for this amp, it never got
hot. I played music through the amp all night to test it out, it was
fine the next day. I even touched the output transistors with my bare
fingers after leaving both components on for hours. Guess what, dumbo?
They were no hotter than warm. No "bad smell" (well, no worse than with
this stuff already smelled like!).

Can you tell which specific amplifeir you have modified ?

So much for all your stupid bull****
about how they'll get "much hotter much sooner" and I will fry my amp.

Been there, seen that when transistors fail.

The only thing you wrote that was correct here, is that the parameters
change when transistors get hotter (but NOT in the ways you predicted).
I already knew that from experiences with my Class A amp. That's why I
took out the heatsinks in the first place, genius.

Well, Tomi, I hope you've learned something here about what you don't
know about audio. And if not, then you're even stupider than I give you
credit for.

Nothing particularly new about audio that I would have not known
earlier. Maybe I should have written my earlier posting in a little
bit different format... less theory and more real world experiment
results.

The end of your posting gave a better picture on you.
It seems that you have been pretty careful on your experiments,
and know more on things you do that seemed based on the first posting.
Sorry. It is pretty easy to get wrong impressions on the people
based on their postins.

Your amplifier if you are lucky might work some time without
the heatsinks if you play at very low volume... if you use
higher volumes or play longer time, it is very propable that sooner
or later your output transistors fail! The hotter they run the
sooner they fail!

Yeah, yeah, blah blah blah... see above for why you are a presuptious
fool, and don't know what you're talking about. Ive worked this amp for
over a month without heatsink at loud volumes, day and night, never had
a problem. Im so confident it has no detrimental effect on the amp, Ive
already thrown out the heatsink. My concnlusion is that sometimes these
things are added in order to prevent failures when used in a variety of
ways, but just because theyre desinged in, does not mean they're always
needed.

That can happens on some equipment. There are amplifiers that designed
in such way that there is overuse of all kind of things. Much larger
hetsinks that are needed, overrated components etc.. just to be on
safe side in all cases.

And there are also amplifiers that are pretty much optimized
to provide what is promised with close to minimal cost...
Taking out parts in such design can cause pretty nasty
consequences.

And ive PROVEN they can do more harm than good. Lets see one of
you crackerheads actually prove ANYTHING that youve been saying.
So sooner or later I expect that your output transistors will
fail short... this will cause quite propably a chain-reaction
that would in normal case burn your amplifier fuse...
Wrong again, chumly. If they haven't burnt out after playing loud music
for a months time, then they're simply not going to (not for reasons of
overheating, since they dont get that hot!).

Feel lucky that you have picked such conservatively designed amplifier
that you can take out the heatsinks, and still no overhating on your use.

Surely you must tire of
being wrong all the time... The only chain reaction I see is that when
one of you posts some ignorant BS to me, it incites another to do the
same.
When you have removed the fuse, then in this case I expect you
get the smome coming out sooner or later from your autput
transistors, amplifier power transformer and/or your speakers.
And possibly flames soon after that..

The only flames I see is from the RATs on this newsgroup because I
dared say something in their presence that contradicts all of your
inane religious beliefs....


--
Tomi Engdahl (http://www.iki.fi/then/)
Take a look at my electronics web links and documents at
http://www.epanorama.net/

wrote:

Walt wrote:
wrote:

Let me guess: It sounds much more warm without the fuse. LOL.

No, I wouldn't describe it as that. Without going into minute details,
the overall resolution is much higher.

Have you tried putting a new fuse of the same rating in?

Replacin a fuse with one with a higher rating is one of the certified
ways of voiding fire insurance.

Question is: Exactly what risks are there in running an integrated amp
or a preamp sans fuse?

You could burn up the power supply, or it could catch on fire. Put the
damn fuse back in.

Could you describe just what condtions would cause the power
supply to burn up or catch on fire

A transistor that for some reason fails.

(I would not have thought this component to be
flammable!)?

I trust that you have not thought.

As I say, I've been running it a couple of hours so far
and there's been no change. As a matter of fact, a few
weeks ago I had previously removed the heatsink from the
output transistors in order to improve the sound, and there
was never any overheating problem.

Ah, good idea, the auto-incinerating amp, much better than planned
obsolesence. The cooler transistors run, the better they behave. The
ever so slight chance there is of warm up and/or burn in effects is
related to capacitors re-forming in case they have been unused for too
long.

PUT THE THINGS YOU TOOK OUT BACK IN!
- remember to add new cooling paste,
if do you not know what that is, then
let qualified service personnel assemble
your amp prior to having to pay themn for
also repairing failed components.


Kind regards

Peter Larsen


--
*******************************************
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
*******************************************

wrote in message
ups.com
Did some experiments on the fuse of my amp... I replaced
a 500mA 250v fuse with a 1.6a 125v fuse and found the
sound much improved. Then I decided to replace the 1.6a
fuse with a jumper made of a silver paperclip, and found
the sound improved much further. Then I replaced the
paper clip with silver solder, and found it improved
further (though I'm less sure about the solder being
better than the clip overall...).

Question is: Exactly what risks are there in running an
integrated amp or a preamp sans fuse? I don't care so
much about the gear blowing up, since its old gear
anyway. But nor do I want a fire started when I leave the
amp running all night or am not at home. In the case of
the preamp, the casing is solid metal, with the
integrated, its a wood casing. What are the chances of
fire and how would it start? What are the chances of it
blowing up and how might that occur? (so far, no
problems!). Is electrical shock a risk with a fuseless
amp?

Good question for rec.audio.opinion. Ask for Middius.

Arny Krueger wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com
Did some experiments on the fuse of my amp... I replaced
a 500mA 250v fuse with a 1.6a 125v fuse and found the
sound much improved. Then I decided to replace the 1.6a
fuse with a jumper made of a silver paperclip, and found
the sound improved much further. Then I replaced the
paper clip with silver solder, and found it improved
further (though I'm less sure about the solder being
better than the clip overall...).

Question is: Exactly what risks are there in running an
integrated amp or a preamp sans fuse? I don't care so
much about the gear blowing up, since its old gear
anyway. But nor do I want a fire started when I leave the
amp running all night or am not at home. In the case of
the preamp, the casing is solid metal, with the
integrated, its a wood casing. What are the chances of
fire and how would it start? What are the chances of it
blowing up and how might that occur? (so far, no
problems!). Is electrical shock a risk with a fuseless
amp?

Good question for rec.audio.opinion. Ask for Middius.

Aren't you the sick ******* that was collecting all sorts of kiddie
porn, and falsely accused others of sending it to you?

wrote in message
oups.com...

Arny Krueger wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com
Did some experiments on the fuse of my amp... I replaced
a 500mA 250v fuse with a 1.6a 125v fuse and found the

Aren't you the sick ******* that was collecting all sorts of kiddie
porn, and falsely accused others of sending it to you?


Pretty clear than from this little slip that rladchap is really a troll.

After all, nobody could really be quite that thick.

geoff

"Geoff@work" wrote in
message
wrote in message
oups.com...

Arny Krueger wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com
Did some experiments on the fuse of my amp... I
replaced a 500mA 250v fuse with a 1.6a 125v fuse and
found the

Aren't you the sick ******* that was collecting all
sorts of kiddie porn, and falsely accused others of
sending it to you?


Pretty clear than from this little slip that rladchap is
really a troll.
After all, nobody could really be quite that thick.

Not only that, but he's obviously a sockpuppet that is being manipulated by
someone that we are already being subjected to - a friend of Middius as it
were.

wrote:

Did some experiments on the fuse of my amp... I replaced a 500mA 250v
fuse with a 1.6a 125v fuse and found the sound much improved. Then I
decided to replace the 1.6a fuse with a jumper made of a silver
paperclip, and found the sound improved much further. Then I replaced
the paper clip with silver solder, and found it improved further
(though I'm less sure about the solder being better than the clip
overall...).

FASCINATING!!!

Question is: Exactly what risks are there in running an integrated amp
or a preamp sans fuse? I don't care so much about the gear blowing up,
since its old gear anyway. But nor do I want a fire started when I
leave the amp running all night or am not at home. In the case of the
preamp, the casing is solid metal, with the integrated, its a wood
casing. What are the chances of fire and how would it start? What are
the chances of it blowing up and how might that occur? (so far, no
problems!). Is electrical shock a risk with a fuseless amp?

Given your first paragraph, I'm inclined to say that you should accept the
risks and eliminate the fuse. Hopefully it _will_ catch fire, and we'll have
one fewer true believer in the newsgroup.

Colin B. wrote:
wrote:

Question is: Exactly what risks are there in running an integrated amp
or a preamp sans fuse? I don't care so much about the gear blowing up,
since its old gear anyway. But nor do I want a fire started when I
leave the amp running all night or am not at home. In the case of the
preamp, the casing is solid metal, with the integrated, its a wood
casing. What are the chances of fire and how would it start? What are
the chances of it blowing up and how might that occur? (so far, no
problems!). Is electrical shock a risk with a fuseless amp?

Given your first paragraph, I'm inclined to say that you should accept the
risks and eliminate the fuse. Hopefully it _will_ catch fire, and we'll have
one fewer true believer in the newsgroup.

Don't worry, I'm not trying to take over your little boys club. That's
"little boys" club, and not "little boys club". I would like to take
you up on it, but obviously, I can not "accept the risks" if none of
you ignorant ****s (you included "Colin B"), are able to describe
exactly what conditions would cause a preamp or integrated to "catch on
fire", as you keep alleging. Is this why one of your colleagues
proposed that i use lighter fluid and matches inside my amp? In order
to "prove" how right you are, when it is probably highly unlikely that
either of these two devices will "catch on fire"? And if they do "catch
on fire", given that one of them is in my baby's room, what kind of
stupid SICK ******* are you, that you would want to see a baby DIE?!
You're a pure Asshole, you are.

Now assuming I don't put vials of lighter fluid in the components,
let's see if a true ignoramus like yourself can even name one thing
that is flammable inside an amp and will make it "catch on fire", as
you allege. DO you even know what solder is made of, moron? Try
"metal". Holy cow! That's the same ingredient as what you find in a
fuse! Has it ever occured to you, imbecile, that if the metal wire in a
fuse breaks and shorts the connection, that this is EXACTLY what will
happen to the silver solder wire that I've joined to the two ends of my
fuse holder?

Try THINKING, instead displaying your infinite igornance, before you
post.

wrote:

And if they do "catch
on fire", given that one of them is in my baby's room, what kind of
stupid SICK ******* are you, that you would want to see a baby DIE?!
You're a pure Asshole, you are.

1) Take a deep breath.

2) Put the fuse back in.

If you're still not sure why to do item 2), please read your paragraph
above. HAND.

//Walt

In article . com, wrote:

Did some experiments on the fuse of my amp... I replaced a 500mA 250v
fuse with a 1.6a 125v fuse and found the sound much improved. Then I
decided to replace the 1.6a fuse with a jumper made of a silver
paperclip, and found the sound improved much further. Then I replaced
the paper clip with silver solder, and found it improved further
(though I'm less sure about the solder being better than the clip
overall...).

Question is: Exactly what risks are there in running an integrated amp
or a preamp sans fuse? I don't care so much about the gear blowing up,
since its old gear anyway. But nor do I want a fire started when I
leave the amp running all night or am not at home. In the case of the
preamp, the casing is solid metal, with the integrated, its a wood
casing. What are the chances of fire and how would it start? What are
the chances of it blowing up and how might that occur? (so far, no
problems!). Is electrical shock a risk with a fuseless amp?


Changing a fuse should do a bunch more than replacing a cord, especially
a cooroded fuse connection. Relacing any connection is likely to improve the connection.

A fuse can help prevent shocks, but there is no guarantee. Damaged transformers could leak
currents. Its preferable to have all metal cases grounded, but not all metal cases
are grounded. Wood can overheat with damaged components, and may or may
not still work. Fires have been started with metal chassis equipment, allthough
mostly with ventillated chassis.

greg

Thanks Greg. I was having so much fun swatting the ignorant flies that
breed around the **** they create on this newsgroup, I wasn't expecting
an intelligent, respectful, and non-ridiculing response like this.
Especially so "late in the game" (given that the flies on this group do
nothing all day but post here, that means it only takes about 5-10
minutes for a thread to degenerate due to the inherent stupidity of
low-level audio techies on the net...). It's always funny for me to see
that once you start mentioning you can hear things to wannabe-
engineers that they weren't taught in their local college courses, they
start freaking out in fits of neuroses. Like babies who've had their
security blankets rudely yanked away. They don't even TRY to debate the
issue they contend with in the first place (because they actually
can't...), they simply make COMPLETE asses out of themselves, because
they simply don't know what to do with themselves...

Anyway, not sure what you mean by "changing a fuse should do a bunch
more than replacing a cord". Bunch more soundwise? Replacing one fuse
for the same fuse, or for that of a different rating? As mentioned in
my message, I didn't try replacing one fuse for another of the same
type, but for that of a different type. I did try reversing the amps
original fuse, and found that made an audible difference as well.

What I'm still unsure about is:

- What is the exact risk involved of changing the rating of a fuse (in
my case, 1.6a 125v for a 500mA 250v)?

- What is the exact risk involved in using solder wire instead of the
original fuse and its filament wire? (Seems to me the solder would burn
at an even lower temperature,

- Would a transformer damaged by the absence of the original fuse be
audibly apparent before leaking currents and creating a risk of shock?

- How can I check to be sure my metal case is properly grounded?



GregS wrote:
In article . com, wrote:

Did some experiments on the fuse of my amp... I replaced a 500mA 250v
fuse with a 1.6a 125v fuse and found the sound much improved. Then I
decided to replace the 1.6a fuse with a jumper made of a silver
paperclip, and found the sound improved much further. Then I replaced
the paper clip with silver solder, and found it improved further
(though I'm less sure about the solder being better than the clip
overall...).

Question is: Exactly what risks are there in running an integrated amp
or a preamp sans fuse? I don't care so much about the gear blowing up,
since its old gear anyway. But nor do I want a fire started when I
leave the amp running all night or am not at home. In the case of the
preamp, the casing is solid metal, with the integrated, its a wood
casing. What are the chances of fire and how would it start? What are
the chances of it blowing up and how might that occur? (so far, no
problems!). Is electrical shock a risk with a fuseless amp?


Changing a fuse should do a bunch more than replacing a cord, especially
a cooroded fuse connection. Relacing any connection is likely to improve the connection.

A fuse can help prevent shocks, but there is no guarantee. Damaged transformers could leak
currents. Its preferable to have all metal cases grounded, but not all metal cases
are grounded. Wood can overheat with damaged components, and may or may
not still work. Fires have been started with metal chassis equipment, allthough
mostly with ventillated chassis.

greg

It truly is a wonder that you are still alive.
If you don't even know how to check for a ground, take your amp to a
qualified professional.
Put the fuse back in.
Somebody should probably take the kids out of your house...

In article .com, wrote:
Thanks Greg. I was having so much fun swatting the ignorant flies that
breed around the **** they create on this newsgroup, I wasn't expecting
an intelligent, respectful, and non-ridiculing response like this.
Especially so "late in the game" (given that the flies on this group do
nothing all day but post here, that means it only takes about 5-10
minutes for a thread to degenerate due to the inherent stupidity of
low-level audio techies on the net...). It's always funny for me to see
that once you start mentioning you can hear things to wannabe-
engineers that they weren't taught in their local college courses, they
start freaking out in fits of neuroses. Like babies who've had their
security blankets rudely yanked away. They don't even TRY to debate the
issue they contend with in the first place (because they actually
can't...), they simply make COMPLETE asses out of themselves, because
they simply don't know what to do with themselves...

Anyway, not sure what you mean by "changing a fuse should do a bunch
more than replacing a cord". Bunch more soundwise? Replacing one fuse
for the same fuse, or for that of a different rating? As mentioned in
my message, I didn't try replacing one fuse for another of the same
type, but for that of a different type. I did try reversing the amps
original fuse, and found that made an audible difference as well.

Many change the replacable line cord which does very little
in the big picture. I do like soldered line cords. A line cord normally
has less resistance than a fuse, except slow blowing fuses under
1 amp will show definate resistance increases. The equipment should
be built to go around these issues and perform OK.

If you think you hear a difference, then a difference could possibly exist.


What I'm still unsure about is:

- What is the exact risk involved of changing the rating of a fuse (in
my case, 1.6a 125v for a 500mA 250v)?

Some fire potential. A fuse does not guarantee anything except current overflow.


- What is the exact risk involved in using solder wire instead of the
original fuse and its filament wire? (Seems to me the solder would burn
at an even lower temperature,

You probably mean silver solder vs silver bearing solder. It does not
melt at too low of a temperature, but lower than copper. A fuse is made
to have resistance and cause heat melting itself. The lower the rating, the
more the resistance. Silver bearing solder could have at least 1 % silver
content. Most of the non-lead solders have a higher melting temperature,
but most solders have high resistance.


- Would a transformer damaged by the absence of the original fuse be
audibly apparent before leaking currents and creating a risk of shock?

No. The fuse would not damage the transformer, but could cause a damaged
transformer to get too hot or otherwise let it continue to opperate when
it should not be opperating.

- How can I check to be sure my metal case is properly grounded?

It might have a 3 wire AC connector. Thats normally the only way to ground, but
there are other ways. Most consumer audio equipment does not have a grounded
case. Grounding it may cause ground loop noise.
In non grounded equipment, a voltmeter connected to a resistor and parallel capacitor is normally
attached from the equipment to earth ground. There is a limit on passing current,
normally less than 100 uA.



GregS wrote:
In article . com,
wrote:

Did some experiments on the fuse of my amp... I replaced a 500mA 250v
fuse with a 1.6a 125v fuse and found the sound much improved. Then I
decided to replace the 1.6a fuse with a jumper made of a silver
paperclip, and found the sound improved much further. Then I replaced
the paper clip with silver solder, and found it improved further
(though I'm less sure about the solder being better than the clip
overall...).

Question is: Exactly what risks are there in running an integrated amp
or a preamp sans fuse? I don't care so much about the gear blowing up,
since its old gear anyway. But nor do I want a fire started when I
leave the amp running all night or am not at home. In the case of the
preamp, the casing is solid metal, with the integrated, its a wood
casing. What are the chances of fire and how would it start? What are
the chances of it blowing up and how might that occur? (so far, no
problems!). Is electrical shock a risk with a fuseless amp?


Changing a fuse should do a bunch more than replacing a cord, especially
a cooroded fuse connection. Relacing any connection is likely to improve the
connection.

A fuse can help prevent shocks, but there is no guarantee. Damaged
transformers could leak
currents. Its preferable to have all metal cases grounded, but not all metal
cases
are grounded. Wood can overheat with damaged components, and may or may
not still work. Fires have been started with metal chassis equipment,
allthough
mostly with ventillated chassis.

greg

GregS wrote:
In article .com, wrote:


Anyway, not sure what you mean by "changing a fuse should do a bunch
more than replacing a cord". Bunch more soundwise? Replacing one fuse
for the same fuse, or for that of a different rating? As mentioned in
my message, I didn't try replacing one fuse for another of the same
type, but for that of a different type. I did try reversing the amps
original fuse, and found that made an audible difference as well.

Many change the replacable line cord which does very little
in the big picture.

Yes, I know about that. I've changed line cords on tape decks,
turntables, etc.... always found significant differences. Didn't always
like the difference, since so many characteristics change. Not easy to
experiment with, unless you play around with IEC replaceable cords.


I do like soldered line cords. A line cord normally
has less resistance than a fuse, except slow blowing fuses under
1 amp will show definate resistance increases. The equipment should
be built to go around these issues and perform OK.

If you think you hear a difference, then a difference could possibly exist.

The difference is tremendous (to me), and I have no doubt it exists,
but then, I really didn't come here to prove that to anybody or debate
this issue (especially with those who have preconceived notions about
what can and can't be perceived in audio...)... only to find out what
the "real risk" was of substituting the fuse for something else that
would maintain the current, as the fuse did, but sound better. I don't
claim to have an engineering background, which is why I came asking
questions.

What I was comparing was the silver solder that I used in place of the
fuse (I dont nkow the percentage, but Im sure its very low, I nkow it
contains lead and its from RadioShack), vs. the wire filament in the
glass fuse tube. I'm thinking that if the wire filament is designed to
cut off the current during an overload or short by breaking from the
heat generated, would not the solder have the same effect of melting
during an overload and thereby cutting off the current and preventing
the amp from melting down or "catching fire"? The electronic solder
used does not seem to have a particularly high melting point, but I
don't know if it is much lower than that of a fuse filament. However, I
understand you to say most solders have high resistance, and that
resistance is what helps the filament in a fuse melt itself. Would this
not make it easy for the Radio Shack silver (probly mostly lead!)
solder to melt under overload conditions and prevent further damage?




What I'm still unsure about is:

- What is the exact risk involved of changing the rating of a fuse (in
my case, 1.6a 125v for a 500mA 250v)?

Some fire potential. A fuse does not guarantee anything except current overflow.


So you're saying even the RIGHT fuse installed does not guarantee the
amp wont catch on fire? Intersting, because all the crazy little boys
here have been screaming at me that my amp will send me and family to a
burning hell the minute I replace the fuse with anything but the rated
type. Some are even prearing hot dogs to roast at my family's
"personal barbecue", from what I've read.


You probably mean silver solder vs silver bearing solder. It does not
melt at too low of a temperature, but lower than copper. A fuse is made
to have resistance and cause heat melting itself. The lower the rating, the
more the resistance. Silver bearing solder could have at least 1 % silver
content. Most of the non-lead solders have a higher melting temperature,
but most solders have high resistance.

- How can I check to be sure my metal case is properly grounded?

It might have a 3 wire AC connector. Thats normally the only way to ground, but
there are other ways. Most consumer audio equipment does not have a grounded
case. Grounding it may cause ground loop noise.

I guess my metal preamp isnt grounded then. Theres some kind of
grounding going on inside of it, but the plug is a two prong ungrounded
type.




In non grounded equipment, a voltmeter connected to a resistor and parallel capacitor is normally
attached from the equipment to earth ground. There is a limit on passing current,
normally less than 100 uA.

In article .com, wrote:

GregS wrote:
In article .com,
wrote:


Anyway, not sure what you mean by "changing a fuse should do a bunch
more than replacing a cord". Bunch more soundwise? Replacing one fuse
for the same fuse, or for that of a different rating? As mentioned in
my message, I didn't try replacing one fuse for another of the same
type, but for that of a different type. I did try reversing the amps
original fuse, and found that made an audible difference as well.

Many change the replacable line cord which does very little
in the big picture.

Yes, I know about that. I've changed line cords on tape decks,
turntables, etc.... always found significant differences. Didn't always
like the difference, since so many characteristics change. Not easy to
experiment with, unless you play around with IEC replaceable cords.


I do like soldered line cords. A line cord normally
has less resistance than a fuse, except slow blowing fuses under
1 amp will show definate resistance increases. The equipment should
be built to go around these issues and perform OK.

If you think you hear a difference, then a difference could possibly exist.

The difference is tremendous (to me), and I have no doubt it exists,
but then, I really didn't come here to prove that to anybody or debate
this issue (especially with those who have preconceived notions about
what can and can't be perceived in audio...)... only to find out what
the "real risk" was of substituting the fuse for something else that
would maintain the current, as the fuse did, but sound better. I don't
claim to have an engineering background, which is why I came asking
questions.

What I was comparing was the silver solder that I used in place of the
fuse (I dont nkow the percentage, but Im sure its very low, I nkow it
contains lead and its from RadioShack), vs. the wire filament in the
glass fuse tube. I'm thinking that if the wire filament is designed to
cut off the current during an overload or short by breaking from the
heat generated, would not the solder have the same effect of melting
during an overload and thereby cutting off the current and preventing
the amp from melting down or "catching fire"? The electronic solder
used does not seem to have a particularly high melting point, but I
don't know if it is much lower than that of a fuse filament. However, I
understand you to say most solders have high resistance, and that
resistance is what helps the filament in a fuse melt itself. Would this
not make it easy for the Radio Shack silver (probly mostly lead!)
solder to melt under overload conditions and prevent further damage?

You don't know what the fusing current will be, but it will be very erratic
using a piece of solder. It is likely to be in the 10's of amps to fuse
your solder. Fusing equipment is a little bit of engineering and a little bit
of practical testing. The exact value can vary. One thing for
sure, if any damage occurs, the insurance Co. could refrain from paying
you.

There is also the ladder effect. I once was sitting down and pushed a button, and a breaker
2 miles away tripped shutting down a complete satelite tracking station.
Its quite an experiance. I pushed a button triggering a 75 HP electric motor,
which shorted, tried to trip but fused the first breaker. This went to the next
really big big breaker. Can you imagine the silence and darkness having pushed
the button. It was really bright and very noisey with racks and racks of equipment
and air handlers until pushing that button. So if you have a fusing problem, it can escalate
problems at times.

greg




What I'm still unsure about is:

- What is the exact risk involved of changing the rating of a fuse (in
my case, 1.6a 125v for a 500mA 250v)?

Some fire potential. A fuse does not guarantee anything except current
overflow.


So you're saying even the RIGHT fuse installed does not guarantee the
amp wont catch on fire? Intersting, because all the crazy little boys
here have been screaming at me that my amp will send me and family to a
burning hell the minute I replace the fuse with anything but the rated
type. Some are even prearing hot dogs to roast at my family's
"personal barbecue", from what I've read.


You probably mean silver solder vs silver bearing solder. It does not
melt at too low of a temperature, but lower than copper. A fuse is made
to have resistance and cause heat melting itself. The lower the rating, the
more the resistance. Silver bearing solder could have at least 1 % silver
content. Most of the non-lead solders have a higher melting temperature,
but most solders have high resistance.

- How can I check to be sure my metal case is properly grounded?

It might have a 3 wire AC connector. Thats normally the only way to ground,
but
there are other ways. Most consumer audio equipment does not have a grounded
case. Grounding it may cause ground loop noise.

I guess my metal preamp isnt grounded then. Theres some kind of
grounding going on inside of it, but the plug is a two prong ungrounded
type.




In non grounded equipment, a voltmeter connected to a resistor and parallel
capacitor is normally
attached from the equipment to earth ground. There is a limit on passing
current,
normally less than 100 uA.

On 24 Jan 2006 11:55:29 -0800, wrote:


What I'm still unsure about is:

- What is the exact risk involved of changing the rating of a fuse (in
my case, 1.6a 125v for a 500mA 250v)?

- What is the exact risk involved in using solder wire instead of the
original fuse and its filament wire? (Seems to me the solder would burn
at an even lower temperature,

- Would a transformer damaged by the absence of the original fuse be
audibly apparent before leaking currents and creating a risk of shock?

It seems that you do not know why fuses are used and how they work.
Both my early teen kids know. You must either be a troll, less than
13, or very ignorant.

If you really, really, are serious (which most of doubt, it seems) you
can read about it he
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homep...tt/elect16.htm

Per.

Per Stromgren wrote:
On 24 Jan 2006 11:55:29 -0800, wrote:


What I'm still unsure about is:

- What is the exact risk involved of changing the rating of a fuse (in
my case, 1.6a 125v for a 500mA 250v)?

- What is the exact risk involved in using solder wire instead of the
original fuse and its filament wire? (Seems to me the solder would burn
at an even lower temperature,

- Would a transformer damaged by the absence of the original fuse be
audibly apparent before leaking currents and creating a risk of shock?

It seems that you do not know why fuses are used and how they work.
Both my early teen kids know. You must either be a troll, less than
13, or very ignorant.

Considering the fact that you can't explain how or why silver solder
would not do as a replacement fuse, or anything else to support
whatever the hell you're supposed to be asserting, maybe you need to
have your kids explain how fuses work to YOU. You're the one who is
either a troll or very ignorant. I don't need your condescending web
links, gaychub. I didn't claim to be an expert on fuses. Why do you
suppose I came here asking questions on the subject, you stupid
****wad? Nor did I come here to be condescended to be having idiots
simply repeat what they read on circuit board stickers, while they
understand NOTHING of the subject.

There are warnings on tags on mattreses too. You mindless trolls are
probably afraid to remove those too, without understanding why exactly
they are there. Me, I have no tags on my mattresses, as Im not a
mindless fool like you and your ****wad friends who appear to know
squat about audio.







If you really, really, are serious (which most of doubt, it seems) you
can read about it he
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homep...tt/elect16.htm

Per.

(I really can't believe I'm replying to this... ;-) It's in the
interests of safety.)


rladbury asked:

What I'm still unsure about is:

- What is the exact risk involved of changing the rating of a fuse (in my
case, 1.6a 125v for a 500mA 250v)?


Probably no "risk" as in danger to you, providing you pull the plug first!
A fuse has a voltage rating because that is the maximum voltage that it is
guaranteed to break, without flashing over inside. So you can't put a 125V
fuse in a 250v system, but you can put a 250v fuse in a 125v system. If
you use too low a voltage rating and the right sort of fault occurs then
the fuse will blow, but won't actually break the current because it can
pass through the now silvered layer on the inside - its like not having a
fuse.

The current rating is the maximum that the fuse can carry continuously
without "blowing". So, if you put a 500mA fuse (i.e. 0.5A) fuse in instead
of a 1.6A one it could very well blow immediately as the equipment could
be taking up to 1.6A. Putting a 1.6A fuse in where it should be 500mA is
giving you 1/3 of the protection that you should have. You are increasing
the risk of permanent damage to the transformer primary in the event of a
fault on the secondary (such as a blown rectifier going short-circuit).
Note that the difference in resistance of a 500mA fuse and a 1.6A fuse is
negligable as the rating depends on the composition of the wire as well as
its cross-sectional area. The contact resistance is way higher.


- What is the exact risk involved in using solder wire instead of the
original fuse and its filament wire? (Seems to me the solder would burn at
an even lower temperature,


You may as well stick a nail in - effectively you don't have a fuse. The
solder has a low enough resistance to not heat up enough to melt in most
cases. There is a very real danger of fire in the event of a fault if you
do this. If you try to use solder as a fuse it tends to explode in small
firey globules of hot metal in the event of a fault. Not what you want...


- Would a transformer damaged by the absence of the original fuse be
audibly apparent before leaking currents and creating a risk of shock?


Do you mean that the original fuse blew? If so it would probably blow a
new fuse immediately. After all, that's why the original fuse blew isn't
it? It *could* make the chassis live if there is an earth problem though,
so the transformer should be properly tested before re-use.


- How can I check to be sure my metal case is properly grounded?


Are you using a 3pin mains plug? If so, a resistance test between the
case and the earth pin is as close as you are going to get. It should be
close to 0 ohms.


It is *not safe* to do things like shorting out fuses or wrapping them in
silver paper. There is no danger until a fault occurs, but then there is a
very real danger of fire and even getting someone killed.

Remember that the fuse has the job of breaking the current. It takes a
finite time for the fuse element to heat up and blow. During that time the
current into the fault is climbing higher and higher, up to a limit set by
the resistance of the fault. It is quite possible to draw tens of amps
through a 1A fuse for a small fraction of a second. Without the fuse that
current goes through the load. Normally house wiring will have a bigger
fuse further back, but that is designed to let enough current through to
blow the fuse in the appliance. Consequently, if you short out a 500mA
fast-blow fuse and you get a fault in the transformer primary (or in the
wiring to it) it could put over a hundred amps through, say, a 13A fuse,
down the lead and into the fault. You had better hope that the bigger fuse
blows or the lead could set fire to your carpet or the transformer could
explode (ok, its a worst case scenario, but these things *can* happen).
Even worse, if the amp has a bad earth the fault could "silently" break it
completely and make the case, and everything connected to it, live. That
can easily kill someone but you won't know about it until you touch
something and by then it could be too late.

Just think of one thing to finish off though, suppose the resistance of
the fuse and its connections is 0.5 ohm (*way* too high, even for a bad
contact). The transformer primary impedance could be about 70 ohms for a
200VA transformer so it swamps the fuse's resistance even in that extreme
case. If the maximum primary current is about 1.6A at 120V the fuse will
drop 0.8 of a volt *at full power* - probably less drop than you'll get
from putting the kettle on. You won't hear the difference at all if the
fuse contacts are clean as the series resistance will simply be too low.
If you think you can hear a difference the clean the contacts or clean
your ears! Ignore anyone who tells you that there is a difference - there
isn't.

Don't ignore safety warnings - don't put people's lives at risk for an
imaginary increase in sound quality which can be proved false both by
measurement and by double-blind listening tests.

--
Mick
(no M$ software on here... :-) )
Web: http://www.nascom.info