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slinkp slinkp is offline
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Default Does anybody sell pre-made resistor "gizmos" for sm57/58 mics?

I'd like to try the shunt resistor trick, as per eg. that old Paul Stamler article, but i have no idea where my soldering kit has got to, and exercising my soldering skills (terrible) is no longer on my list of "fun things to do with my very limited free time". Plugging in a presumably inexpensive thing that's already wired up and seeing if I like it does sound fun though..

So if there's a place or person that sells eg. an XLR barrel with a suitable resistor already correctly wired into it, I'd happily buy one. Google's not turning up such a thing but it's hard to know exactly what to search for..
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Mike Rivers[_2_] Mike Rivers[_2_] is offline
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Default Does anybody sell pre-made resistor "gizmos" for sm57/58 mics?

On 9/15/2020 10:12 AM, slinkp wrote:
I'd like to try the shunt resistor trick, as per eg. that old Paul Stamler article, but i have no idea where my soldering kit has got to, and exercising my soldering skills (terrible) is no longer on my list of "fun things to do


So if there's a place or person that sells eg. an XLR barrel with a suitable resistor already correctly wired into it, I'd happily buy one.


This isn't the sort of thing that becomes a commercial product, though
you might find some on this newsgroup or some other recording-related
forum who will volunteer to make one for you for cost and shipping.

I would, but I won't - because the 600 ohm resistor that Paul came up
with for his article was the best compromise, as evaluated by his
students, for the mic, preamp, and source. Different resistors sounded
different and may sound better than 600 ohms (or no resistor) on a
different source.

The other thing - and maybe now that I think about it, it might not be a
600 ohm resistor after all, but a different value - is that what they
really determined. This is the load on the microphone, which equals the
preamp's input impedance with a resistor in parallel that total 600
ohms. I may not have the number right, but that's the principle.

Paul conducted his experiment using a preamp that he designed and built
himself, so your preamp will be different.

If you want to experiment with varying the load on a microphone, I'd
suggest that you give some consideration to buying a Cloudlifter Z. It's
a pre-preamp with a built-in variable load resistor. Even with the load
resistor switched out, the Cloudlifter will make your SM57 sound better,
and you can fiddle with the variable load to see how (and if) it affects
what you're recording.

https://www.cloudmicrophones.com/cloudlifter-cl-z

Unfortunately it costs about $250 new, but they're available on the used
market.





--
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Default Does anybody sell pre-made resistor "gizmos" for sm57/58 mics?

I can't seem to find a suitable XLR F/M barrel, how about a 2' cord with a 1% 600 ohm resistor in one end? Send me an email, it's yours for $10, including shipping. ~ Roy
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Default Does anybody sell pre-made resistor "gizmos" for sm57/58 mics?

Some newsreaders don't include my email, so here 'tis -
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Default Does anybody sell pre-made resistor "gizmos" for sm57/58 mics?

On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 10:35:26 AM UTC-4, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 9/15/2020 10:12 AM, slinkp wrote:
I'd like to try the shunt resistor trick, as per eg. that old Paul Stamler article, but i have no idea where my soldering kit has got to, and exercising my soldering skills (terrible) is no longer on my list of "fun things to do
So if there's a place or person that sells eg. an XLR barrel with a suitable resistor already correctly wired into it, I'd happily buy one.

This isn't the sort of thing that becomes a commercial product, though
you might find some on this newsgroup or some other recording-related
forum who will volunteer to make one for you for cost and shipping.

I would, but I won't - because the 600 ohm resistor that Paul came up
with for his article was the best compromise, as evaluated by his
students, for the mic, preamp, and source. Different resistors sounded
different and may sound better than 600 ohms (or no resistor) on a
different source.

The other thing - and maybe now that I think about it, it might not be a
600 ohm resistor after all, but a different value - is that what they
really determined. This is the load on the microphone, which equals the
preamp's input impedance with a resistor in parallel that total 600
ohms. I may not have the number right, but that's the principle.

Paul conducted his experiment using a preamp that he designed and built
himself, so your preamp will be different.


Thanks for the thoughts, Mike!

It took some poking on archive.org but I found the article.
It was a UA 610 preamp, did he design those? (Honest question I have no idea)
Point taken anyway - I don't have one
https://web.archive.org/web/20171123...etail/330.html

He says "I chose 698 ohms as a good compromise resistor value that gives a total load of about 500 ohms (±10%) with common available preamp impedances from 1500€“2400 ohms. If you want to tailor the resistor to your preamp or boards actual value, see the sidebar" and then there's a section where he discusses the formula.

Apparently the 610 has a nominal input impedance of 2k according to the article. My Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 is even higher at 3k.
By his formula, 600 ohms would work for me: 1 / (1/500 - 1/3000) = 600

If you want to experiment with varying the load on a microphone, I'd
suggest that you give some consideration to buying a Cloudlifter Z. It's
a pre-preamp with a built-in variable load resistor. Even with the load
resistor switched out, the Cloudlifter will make your SM57 sound better,
and you can fiddle with the variable load to see how (and if) it affects
what you're recording.

https://www.cloudmicrophones.com/cloudlifter-cl-z

Unfortunately it costs about $250 new, but they're available on the used
market.


Those do look fun to play with. Thanks!


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Default Does anybody sell pre-made resistor "gizmos" for sm57/58 mics?

On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 2:02:40 PM UTC-4, Roy W. Rising wrote:
Some newsreaders don't include my email, so here 'tis -


Thanks Roy! I'll email you.
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Default Does anybody sell pre-made resistor "gizmos" for sm57/58 mics?

On 9/15/2020 2:45 PM, slinkp wrote:

It took some poking on archive.org but I found the article.
It was a UA 610 preamp, did he design those? (Honest question I have no idea)


No, Paul didn't design the UA 610. My recollection was that they
performed this experiment with a preamp that Paul called Project-R,
which was published as a DIY project in a multi-part article in
Recording Magazine, back when people would build relatively complex
gadget like that preamp.

Anyway, thanks for the link to the article.

https://web.archive.org/web/20171123...etail/330.html


Apparently the 610 has a nominal input impedance of 2k according to the article. My Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 is even higher at 3k.
By his formula, 600 ohms would work for me: 1 / (1/500 - 1/3000) = 600


That makes sense. The closest standard 10% value to 600 ohms is 610 ohms
- close enough, particularly since you don't know exactly what the
preamp's input impedance is, exactaly, and and at what frequency that
was measured. The idea is just to get close to a 500 ohm load across the
mic.

Oh, and as to Roy's offer - there's nothing wrong with using a pair of
XLR's with a short piece of cable between them. Just be sure you mark
the cable so you'll know what it is when you dig it out of your junk
cable box 20 years from now.

Oh, qne the genuine Male-Female barrel is the Switchcraft S3FM:

ttps://www.markertek.com/product/s3fm/switchcraft-s3fm-xlf-xlm-unwired-feed-thru-audio-adapter.


Roy's $10 offer is a better deal.


--
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Default Does anybody sell pre-made resistor "gizmos" for sm57/58 mics?

On 16/09/2020 2:12 am, slinkp wrote:
I'd like to try the shunt resistor trick, as per eg. that old Paul Stamler article, but i have no idea where my soldering kit has got to, and exercising my soldering skills (terrible) is no longer on my list of "fun things to do with my very limited free time". Plugging in a presumably inexpensive thing that's already wired up and seeing if I like it does sound fun though.

So if there's a place or person that sells eg. an XLR barrel with a suitable resistor already correctly wired into it, I'd happily buy one. Google's not turning up such a thing but it's hard to know exactly what to search for.


Ask any local electronic/TV/appliance repair place - they'd happily do
it for you for a few $$$ ( or a beer) if you turn up with the bits.

geoff
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On 16/09/2020 2:35 am, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 9/15/2020 10:12 AM, slinkp wrote:
I'd like to try the shunt resistor trick, as per eg. that old Paul
Stamler article, but i have no idea where my soldering kit has got to,
and exercising my soldering skills (terrible) is no longer on my list
of "fun things to do


So if there's a place or person that sells eg. an XLR barrel with a
suitable resistor already correctly wired into it, I'd happily buy one.


This isn't the sort of thing that becomes a commercial product, though
you might find some on this newsgroup or some other recording-related
forum who will volunteer to make one for you for cost and shipping.

I would, but I won't - because the 600 ohm resistor that Paul came up
with for his article was the best compromise, as evaluated by his
students, for the mic, preamp, and source. Different resistors sounded
different and may sound better than 600 ohms (or no resistor) on a
different source.

The other thing - and maybe now that I think about it, it might not be a
600 ohm resistor after all, but a different value - is that what they
really determined. This is the load on the microphone, which equals the
preamp's input impedance with a resistor in parallel that total 600
ohms. I may not have the number right, but that's the principle.

Paul conducted his experiment using a preamp that he designed and built
himself, so your preamp will be different.

If you want to experiment with varying the load on a microphone, I'd
suggest that you give some consideration to buying a Cloudlifter Z. It's
a pre-preamp with a built-in variable load resistor. Even with the load
resistor switched out, the Cloudlifter will make your SM57 sound better,
and you can fiddle with the variable load to see how (and if) it affects
what you're recording.

https://www.cloudmicrophones.com/cloudlifter-cl-z

Unfortunately it costs about $250 new, but they're available on the used
market.


I used to manufacture' them for sale. I used a 750R resistor, a better
compromise I found. 600R takes the combined load Z too low.

geoff
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On 16/09/2020 5:43 am, Roy W. Rising wrote:
I can't seem to find a suitable XLR F/M barrel, how about a 2' cord with a 1% 600 ohm resistor in one end? Send me an email, it's yours for $10, including shipping. ~ Roy


Here's one. A bit expensive. A little googling should find one for much
cheaper.

https://www.digikey.com/product-deta...048-ND/1290432

geoff


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On 16/09/2020 9:42 am, geoff wrote:
On 16/09/2020 5:43 am, Roy W. Rising wrote:
I can't seem to find a suitable XLR F/M barrel, how about a 2' cord
with a 1% 600 ohm resistor in one end?Â* Send me an email, it's yours
for $10, including shipping.Â* ~ Roy


Here's one. A bit expensive. A little googling should find one for much
cheaper.

https://www.digikey.com/product-deta...048-ND/1290432


geoff



Here's a cheaper one. This is from a New Zealand distributor, but I'm
sure equiv available anywhere in the world.

https://jansen.nz/product/signal-ada...etal-1842.htmx
( that is about US$3.50).

geoff
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Roy W. Rising wrote:
I can't seem to find a suitable XLR F/M barrel, how about a 2' cord with a 1% 600 ohm resistor in one end? Send me an email, it's yours for $10, including shipping. ~ Roy


Beautiful, Roy! I was going to suggest he drop by a local makerspace with
a cable and a resistor.
--scott
--
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Default Does anybody sell pre-made resistor "gizmos" for sm57/58 mics?

On 16/09/2020 3:43 am, Roy W. Rising wrote:
I can't seem to find a suitable XLR F/M barrel, how about a 2' cord with a 1% 600 ohm resistor in one end? Send me an email, it's yours for $10, including shipping. ~ Roy


Wow Roy pretty generous, that's less than the cost of parts and shipping
surely!

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Default Does anybody sell pre-made resistor "gizmos" for sm57/58 mics?

When I started in TV sound in '65, I was told the mic preamp input impedance should be "2K or greater" to avoid loading ribbon mics, which lose HF performance when loaded. Dynamic mics generally "care" less about loading, with the exception of the SM57/58 as discussed here. EV co-founder Lou Burroughs told me that as of the "Research Engineering" era, EV dynamics would no longer use transformers for impedance selection. The successor to the EV 666 (with transformer) is the RE15. Lou said that inline attenuators' loading would not affect performance and that a true 150 ohm load would only lower the level by 6dB. With all of the variables surrounding mic performance, I decided to step beyond the esoteric practice of "mic selection". Instead, I started using RE15s on "everything", in part because EQ on every input was appearing. My other reason was that mixing TV orchestras amounted to mixing leakage. The RE15 is flat from all directions, hence "better" leakage. I have a matched pair for my desert island gig.
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Default Does anybody sell pre-made resistor "gizmos" for sm57/58 mics?

Roy W. Rising wrote:
When I started in TV sound in '65, I was told the mic preamp input impedanc=
e should be "2K or greater" to avoid loading ribbon mics, which lose HF per=
formance when loaded.


And see, when I started in the seventies, I was told the opposite, that
ribbons wanted to see a lower impedance. Roy is correct, and Olson backs
him up, and what I was told was wrong, but apparently a lot of people
believed it at the time.

Dynamic mics generally "care" less about loading, wi=
th the exception of the SM57/58 as discussed here. EV co-founder Lou Burro=
ughs told me that as of the "Research Engineering" era, EV dynamics would n=
o longer use transformers for impedance selection.


If you want microphones that are efficient and have high output, you get
tight coupling and live with loading changing the response. If you can
make the magnetic circuit lossy, they won't be as sensitive to load.

One of the things about the SM-57 is that it uses a very low-Z winding with
a few big turns, going into a step-up transformer. The later EV dynamics used
higher impedance windings without the transformer, which was a win sonically
but might have made them less rugged.

The successor to the EV=
666 (with transformer) is the RE15. Lou said that inline attenuators' loa=
ding would not affect performance and that a true 150 ohm load would only l=
ower the level by 6dB. With all of the variables surrounding mic performan=
ce, I decided to step beyond the esoteric practice of "mic selection". Ins=
tead, I started using RE15s on "everything", in part because EQ on every in=
put was appearing. My other reason was that mixing TV orchestras amounted =
to mixing leakage. The RE15 is flat from all directions, hence "better" le=
akage. I have a matched pair for my desert island gig.


The RE15 is an unsung hero, alongside the Sennheiser 441. Both sound pretty
good when you're standing behind them. Try THAT with an SM-57.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."


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On 17/09/2020 7:11 am, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Roy W. Rising wrote:
When I started in TV sound in '65, I was told the mic preamp input impedanc=
e should be "2K or greater" to avoid loading ribbon mics, which lose HF per=
formance when loaded.


And see, when I started in the seventies, I was told the opposite, that
ribbons wanted to see a lower impedance. Roy is correct, and Olson backs
him up, and what I was told was wrong, but apparently a lot of people
believed it at the time.


Surely all passive ribbon mics have output transformers, and the optimal
loading would be dependent on that, which could be different for every
model or brand ?



The RE15 is an unsung hero, alongside the Sennheiser 441. Both sound pretty
good when you're standing behind them. Try THAT with an SM-57.
--scott


And the AKG D224E, not omni, put freq response pretty similar all angles.

geoff

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On Wednesday, September 16, 2020 at 4:03:58 PM UTC-7, geoff wrote:
Surely all passive ribbon mics have output transformers, and the optimal
loading would be dependent on that, which could be different for every
model or brand ?

Let me repeat: Microphone preamp input impedances should be 2K ohms or greater to *avoid* loading ribbon mics. "Optimal loading" would be NO loading whatsoever.
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On Thu, 17 Sep 2020 10:25:58 -0700 (PDT), "Roy W. Rising"
wrote:

On Wednesday, September 16, 2020 at 4:03:58 PM UTC-7, geoff wrote:
Surely all passive ribbon mics have output transformers, and the optimal
loading would be dependent on that, which could be different for every
model or brand ?

Let me repeat: Microphone preamp input impedances should be 2K ohms or greater to *avoid* loading ribbon mics. "Optimal loading" would be NO loading whatsoever.


There is an equally important impedance requirement in the other
direction. To achieve the lowest possible noise level the microphone
impedance as seen by the pre must be about right. Typically this is
about 150 ohms. This is determined by the balance of voltage noise and
current noise in the preamp. Many of the top mixers are pretty poor in
this regard; something that was not very important until the new
generation of ultra-low self noise mics came along.

d

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On 18/09/2020 5:25 am, Roy W. Rising wrote:
On Wednesday, September 16, 2020 at 4:03:58 PM UTC-7, geoff wrote:
Surely all passive ribbon mics have output transformers, and the optimal
loading would be dependent on that, which could be different for every
model or brand ?

Let me repeat: Microphone preamp input impedances should be 2K ohms or greater to *avoid* loading ribbon mics. "Optimal loading" would be NO loading whatsoever.


Let me repeat - FAKE NEWS !

Input impedance that a ribbon mic works into should be whatever is
specified optimal for the specific model of ribbon mic. They have either
a transformer (which should reflect the specified load optimally to the
ribbon), or an active preamp will will isolate the ribbon element
totally with a known and controlled load, and have its own specified load Z.

A passive ribbon mic with its inherent transformer may have markedly
different response into normal range versus very-high-to-none-at-all
loading.

But I could be wrong - Scott, Don ?

geoff
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Default Does anybody sell pre-made resistor "gizmos" for sm57/58 mics?

On 9/17/2020 7:18 PM, geoff wrote:
A passive ribbon mic with its inherent transformer may have markedly
different response into normal range versus very-high-to-none-at-all
loading.


This is true for any microphone with a transformer. It's not about
impedance matching of the microphone element with that of the preamp, it
has to do with the inductance and resonance characteristics of the
transformer.

This is a _system_ issue, not a component issue.

--
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Default Does anybody sell pre-made resistor "gizmos" for sm57/58 mics?

Scott Dorsey wrote:
Roy W. Rising wrote:
When I started in TV sound in '65, I was told the mic preamp input impedanc=
e should be "2K or greater" to avoid loading ribbon mics, which lose HF per=
formance when loaded.


And see, when I started in the seventies, I was told the opposite, that
ribbons wanted to see a lower impedance. Roy is correct, and Olson backs
him up, and what I was told was wrong, but apparently a lot of people
believed it at the time.

Dynamic mics generally "care" less about loading, wi=
th the exception of the SM57/58 as discussed here. EV co-founder Lou Burro=
ughs told me that as of the "Research Engineering" era, EV dynamics would n=
o longer use transformers for impedance selection.


If you want microphones that are efficient and have high output, you get
tight coupling and live with loading changing the response. If you can
make the magnetic circuit lossy, they won't be as sensitive to load.

One of the things about the SM-57 is that it uses a very low-Z winding with
a few big turns, going into a step-up transformer. The later EV dynamics used
higher impedance windings without the transformer, which was a win sonically
but might have made them less rugged.

The successor to the EV=
666 (with transformer) is the RE15. Lou said that inline attenuators' loa=
ding would not affect performance and that a true 150 ohm load would only l=
ower the level by 6dB. With all of the variables surrounding mic performan=
ce, I decided to step beyond the esoteric practice of "mic selection". Ins=
tead, I started using RE15s on "everything", in part because EQ on every in=
put was appearing. My other reason was that mixing TV orchestras amounted =
to mixing leakage. The RE15 is flat from all directions, hence "better" le=
akage. I have a matched pair for my desert island gig.


The RE15 is an unsung hero, alongside the Sennheiser 441. Both sound pretty
good when you're standing behind them. Try THAT with an SM-57.
--scott


Yeah, but gain before feedback...

I used an RE11 as a stage vocal mic for a while but switched to an Audix
i5 ( even more SM57 than an SM57 ) because feedback.

The RE11 might be the nest guitar amp mic I own.

--
Les Cargill
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geoff wrote:
On 17/09/2020 7:11 am, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Roy W. Rising wrote:
When I started in TV sound in '65, I was told the mic preamp input impedanc=
e should be "2K or greater" to avoid loading ribbon mics, which lose HF per=
formance when loaded.


And see, when I started in the seventies, I was told the opposite, that
ribbons wanted to see a lower impedance. Roy is correct, and Olson backs
him up, and what I was told was wrong, but apparently a lot of people
believed it at the time.


Surely all passive ribbon mics have output transformers, and the optimal
loading would be dependent on that, which could be different for every
model or brand ?


The RCA ribbons, and most other ribbons that are copies of the RCA, don't
need any electrical damping. Consequently they work best into an open,
but you don't get any signal that way, so in real life we try for the
highest impedance possible given noise limits.

This may not be the case for highly tensioned ribbons, although it seems
to be the case with the Beyers.

There is a really good discussion of this in Harry Olson's book on acoustics,
which goes through the math and shows a very good electrical model for the
ribbon mike which still has not been improved on after all these years.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 7:12:44 AM UTC-7, slinkp wrote:
I'd like to try the shunt resistor trick, as per eg. that old Paul Stamler article, but i have no idea where my soldering kit has got to, and exercising my soldering skills (terrible) is no longer on my list of "fun things to do with my very limited free time". Plugging in a presumably inexpensive thing that's already wired up and seeing if I like it does sound fun though.

So if there's a place or person that sells eg. an XLR barrel with a suitable resistor already correctly wired into it, I'd happily buy one. Google's not turning up such a thing but it's hard to know exactly what to search for.


And so, after an interesting discussion about loading vs. non-loading of mics, someone told me about the "Lower-Z" - $13.99 from FireHouse Audio. https://www.fhaudio.net/ . Their low-information description is amusing ... "Less Resistance Means Fuller Tone", and more! [I didn't know the brush company had a sound division.]

Roy W. Rising "If you notice the *sound*, it's wrong."

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My source for XLR-female to XLR-male "adapters":
https://www.audiopile.net/CA-301-GL

That one comes wires as a "ground=lift" (i.e. pin 1 disconnected).
But easily modified to restore pin-1 ground thru, and you can add whatever other components easily.
An extra load resistor, or a pad or filter or whatever......
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Default Does anybody sell pre-made resistor "gizmos" for sm57/58 mics?

On 30/11/2020 7:23 pm, Richard Crowley wrote:
My source for XLR-female to XLR-male "adapters":
https://www.audiopile.net/CA-301-GL

That one comes wires as a "ground=lift" (i.e. pin 1 disconnected).
But easily modified to restore pin-1 ground thru, and you can add whatever other components easily.
An extra load resistor, or a pad or filter or whatever......


I use Proel-branded ones, with no lift.

geoff
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