[[email protected]]

I have an old system that I want to strip out & make into a Windows XP
box that does nothing but house MP3's of my entire CD collection, &
play them through Winamp. However, I want this in my van. I've been
looking at ways to do this inexpensively, & I found the iMON VFD bundle
he
http://www.soundgraph.com/Eng_/Produ...=1&leftMenu=25

In any event, the software allows you to use the remote control to
control Winamp, so I had thought maybe I could mount the VFD w/ knob in
the dash (like any other audio deck) & run cables back to the PC, which
will likely sit behind the driver's seat somewhere. However, after
reading some reviews, I found out that not only do you need a USB cable
to connect (which is easily extendable), you also need to tie directly
into the PC's power supply, which can be done w/ the included 24-pin
cable adapter. My question is, does anyone else know a possible way
around this, i.e. a 24-pin cable extension (really long, like several
feet), or some other way I can accomplish this? I think this would be
an awesome setup to have - no more radio, just endless MP3
goodness...but I need to figure out a way to make it work first. Any
thoughts?

[Rod Speed]

wrote:

I have an old system that I want to strip out & make into a Windows
XP box that does nothing but house MP3's of my entire CD collection,
& play them through Winamp. However, I want this in my van.

Makes more sense to start with a laptop.

I've been looking at ways to do this inexpensively,
& I found the iMON VFD bundle he
http://www.soundgraph.com/Eng_/Produ...=1&leftMenu=25

In any event, the software allows you to use the remote control to
control Winamp, so I had thought maybe I could mount the VFD w/ knob
in the dash (like any other audio deck) & run cables back to the PC,
which will likely sit behind the driver's seat somewhere. However,
after reading some reviews, I found out that not only do you need a
USB cable to connect (which is easily extendable), you also need to
tie directly into the PC's power supply, which can be done w/ the
included 24-pin cable adapter. My question is, does anyone else know
a possible way around this, i.e. a 24-pin cable extension (really
long, like several feet), or some other way I can accomplish this? I
think this would be an awesome setup to have - no more radio, just
endless MP3 goodness...but I need to figure out a way to make it work
first. Any thoughts?

Makes more sense to start with a decent mp3 player.

[kony]

On 18 Aug 2006 13:00:21 -0700,
wrote:

I have an old system that I want to strip out & make into a Windows XP
box
that does nothing but house MP3's of my entire CD collection, &
play them through Winamp. However, I want this in my van. I've been
looking at ways to do this inexpensively, & I found the iMON VFD bundle
he
http://www.soundgraph.com/Eng_/Produ...=1&leftMenu=25

In any event, the software allows you to use the remote control to
control Winamp, so I had thought maybe I could mount the VFD w/ knob in
the dash (like any other audio deck) & run cables back to the PC, which
will likely sit behind the driver's seat somewhere. However, after
reading some reviews, I found out that not only do you need a USB cable
to connect (which is easily extendable), you also need to tie directly
into the PC's power supply, which can be done w/ the included 24-pin
cable adapter. My question is, does anyone else know a possible way
around this, i.e. a 24-pin cable extension (really long, like several
feet), or some other way I can accomplish this? I think this would be
an awesome setup to have - no more radio, just endless MP3
goodness...but I need to figure out a way to make it work first. Any
thoughts?

You most likely don't really need it to tie into the PC PSU,
just to have a common ground to it and to supply the correct
voltage. For example, if it uses 5V, you could run that 5V
from the PC, as it's already on a USB cable anyway (up to
500mA), or a single wire (if chassis is common ground to
everything), or a pair of wires, more likely terminated ina
molex 4 pin socket as seen on hard drives/etc.

Of course this will require some soldering, crimping, etc,
all the basic things needed to do these kinds of custom jobs
where an OEM wiring harness isn't available. You should be
able to figure out by the pass-through connector, what power
it uses and go from there. Another power source is the
vehicle 12V, using a step-down regulator of some sort. If
it doesnt' use much power, even a cheap and dirty linear
regulator with an insulated case, screwed onto the back of
the metal casing (it "looks" metal?) if not elsewhere.

However, it appears this device also allows powering on via
remote control, which is probably implemented by using the
5VSB from the PSU, as well as shorting the PS-On pins
remotely to turn the system on. If you have your computer
set to turn on an alternate way or be always-on with vehicle
ignition it is not a problem, but you will lose the ability
to turn system on if it's not wired back to the ATX
connector one way or another. Once again if you wanted to
cut, splice, solder or crimp, you can just extend the
appropriate leads as necessary, rather than having to run
all 24 wires from the PSU cable. So there's some
flexibility, it depends on how you want to do it.

[[email protected]]

Rod Speed wrote:
wrote:

I have an old system that I want to strip out & make into a Windows
XP box that does nothing but house MP3's of my entire CD collection,
& play them through Winamp. However, I want this in my van.

Makes more sense to start with a laptop.

I've been looking at ways to do this inexpensively,
& I found the iMON VFD bundle he
http://www.soundgraph.com/Eng_/Produ...=1&leftMenu=25

In any event, the software allows you to use the remote control to
control Winamp, so I had thought maybe I could mount the VFD w/ knob
in the dash (like any other audio deck) & run cables back to the PC,
which will likely sit behind the driver's seat somewhere. However,
after reading some reviews, I found out that not only do you need a
USB cable to connect (which is easily extendable), you also need to
tie directly into the PC's power supply, which can be done w/ the
included 24-pin cable adapter. My question is, does anyone else know
a possible way around this, i.e. a 24-pin cable extension (really
long, like several feet), or some other way I can accomplish this? I
think this would be an awesome setup to have - no more radio, just
endless MP3 goodness...but I need to figure out a way to make it work
first. Any thoughts?

Makes more sense to start with a decent mp3 player.

The problem is, I can't afford the $400 60GB iPod that I want;
secondly, that may not be enough to store all the MP3s I want (at
192kbps) to store. In essense, I want to take my entire music
collection with me @ 192Kbps, which a 60GB iPod just won't do.

[[email protected]]

Nice. I'm not sure I'd need to have the "power-on" feature tied in; I
think I could handle powering it on manually - that wouldn't be a
problem. It's not like I plan on using the thing extensively on short
trips in town (5 blocks here & there), but more for when I go visit my
folks or travel for other things. That's when it will really come in
handy. I have a post on SoundGraph's website basically asking the same
thing - I wonder if they'll echo that in terms of using the USB for
power & data or if there HAS to be power coming from somewhere else
regardless of the "power-on" feature.

kony wrote:
On 18 Aug 2006 13:00:21 -0700,
wrote:

I have an old system that I want to strip out & make into a Windows XP
box
that does nothing but house MP3's of my entire CD collection, &
play them through Winamp. However, I want this in my van. I've been
looking at ways to do this inexpensively, & I found the iMON VFD bundle
he
http://www.soundgraph.com/Eng_/Produ...=1&leftMenu=25

In any event, the software allows you to use the remote control to
control Winamp, so I had thought maybe I could mount the VFD w/ knob in
the dash (like any other audio deck) & run cables back to the PC, which
will likely sit behind the driver's seat somewhere. However, after
reading some reviews, I found out that not only do you need a USB cable
to connect (which is easily extendable), you also need to tie directly
into the PC's power supply, which can be done w/ the included 24-pin
cable adapter. My question is, does anyone else know a possible way
around this, i.e. a 24-pin cable extension (really long, like several
feet), or some other way I can accomplish this? I think this would be
an awesome setup to have - no more radio, just endless MP3
goodness...but I need to figure out a way to make it work first. Any
thoughts?

You most likely don't really need it to tie into the PC PSU,
just to have a common ground to it and to supply the correct
voltage. For example, if it uses 5V, you could run that 5V
from the PC, as it's already on a USB cable anyway (up to
500mA), or a single wire (if chassis is common ground to
everything), or a pair of wires, more likely terminated ina
molex 4 pin socket as seen on hard drives/etc.

Of course this will require some soldering, crimping, etc,
all the basic things needed to do these kinds of custom jobs
where an OEM wiring harness isn't available. You should be
able to figure out by the pass-through connector, what power
it uses and go from there. Another power source is the
vehicle 12V, using a step-down regulator of some sort. If
it doesnt' use much power, even a cheap and dirty linear
regulator with an insulated case, screwed onto the back of
the metal casing (it "looks" metal?) if not elsewhere.

However, it appears this device also allows powering on via
remote control, which is probably implemented by using the
5VSB from the PSU, as well as shorting the PS-On pins
remotely to turn the system on. If you have your computer
set to turn on an alternate way or be always-on with vehicle
ignition it is not a problem, but you will lose the ability
to turn system on if it's not wired back to the ATX
connector one way or another. Once again if you wanted to
cut, splice, solder or crimp, you can just extend the
appropriate leads as necessary, rather than having to run
all 24 wires from the PSU cable. So there's some
flexibility, it depends on how you want to do it.

[Rod Speed]

wrote:
Rod Speed wrote:
wrote:

I have an old system that I want to strip out & make into a Windows
XP box that does nothing but house MP3's of my entire CD collection,
& play them through Winamp. However, I want this in my van.

Makes more sense to start with a laptop.

I've been looking at ways to do this inexpensively,
& I found the iMON VFD bundle he
http://www.soundgraph.com/Eng_/Produ...=1&leftMenu=25

In any event, the software allows you to use the remote control to
control Winamp, so I had thought maybe I could mount the VFD w/ knob
in the dash (like any other audio deck) & run cables back to the PC,
which will likely sit behind the driver's seat somewhere. However,
after reading some reviews, I found out that not only do you need a
USB cable to connect (which is easily extendable), you also need to
tie directly into the PC's power supply, which can be done w/ the
included 24-pin cable adapter. My question is, does anyone else
know a possible way around this, i.e. a 24-pin cable extension
(really long, like several feet), or some other way I can
accomplish this? I think this would be an awesome setup to have -
no more radio, just endless MP3 goodness...but I need to figure out
a way to make it work first. Any thoughts?

Makes more sense to start with a decent mp3 player.

The problem is, I can't afford the $400 60GB iPod that I want;

OK, in that case it makes more sense to start with a surplus laptop.

secondly, that may not be enough to store all the MP3s I want
(at 192kbps) to store. In essense, I want to take my entire music
collection with me @ 192Kbps, which a 60GB iPod just won't do.

OK, but there are real downsides in starting with a desktop system
when you want to use it in a van. Makes more sense to start with a laptop
and add an extra hard drive via USB or firewire if you need more space.

[[email protected]]

The only "surplus" laptop I have is an old Win98 Acer beast that is
hardly capable of doing what I want, even if I did add a secondary HDD
via USB. Besides, that would be unweildly compared to a neatly compact
custom case mod, I would think. Although having the laptop screen
would come in handy...

Rod Speed wrote:
wrote:
Rod Speed wrote:
wrote:

I have an old system that I want to strip out & make into a Windows
XP box that does nothing but house MP3's of my entire CD collection,
& play them through Winamp. However, I want this in my van.

Makes more sense to start with a laptop.

I've been looking at ways to do this inexpensively,
& I found the iMON VFD bundle he
http://www.soundgraph.com/Eng_/Produ...=1&leftMenu=25

In any event, the software allows you to use the remote control to
control Winamp, so I had thought maybe I could mount the VFD w/ knob
in the dash (like any other audio deck) & run cables back to the PC,
which will likely sit behind the driver's seat somewhere. However,
after reading some reviews, I found out that not only do you need a
USB cable to connect (which is easily extendable), you also need to
tie directly into the PC's power supply, which can be done w/ the
included 24-pin cable adapter. My question is, does anyone else
know a possible way around this, i.e. a 24-pin cable extension
(really long, like several feet), or some other way I can
accomplish this? I think this would be an awesome setup to have -
no more radio, just endless MP3 goodness...but I need to figure out
a way to make it work first. Any thoughts?

Makes more sense to start with a decent mp3 player.

The problem is, I can't afford the $400 60GB iPod that I want;

OK, in that case it makes more sense to start with a surplus laptop.

secondly, that may not be enough to store all the MP3s I want
(at 192kbps) to store. In essense, I want to take my entire music
collection with me @ 192Kbps, which a 60GB iPod just won't do.

OK, but there are real downsides in starting with a desktop system
when you want to use it in a van. Makes more sense to start with a laptop
and add an extra hard drive via USB or firewire if you need more space.

[Rod Speed]

wrote:

The only "surplus" laptop I have is an old Win98 Acer beast that is hardly
capable of doing what I want, even if I did add a secondary HDD via USB.

There's plenty of others available like on ebay.

Besides, that would be unweildly compared to a
neatly compact custom case mod, I would think.

'think' again.

Although having the laptop screen would come in handy...

It'd likely be more practical to have a small lcd screen mounted
in the dash, plugged into the laptop external monitor connector.

The fundamental problem with using a desktop system is
the inverter you need to power it and the mess that the
power cabling involves.

You dont need any of that with a laptop.

Rod Speed wrote:
wrote:
Rod Speed wrote:
wrote:

I have an old system that I want to strip out & make into a
Windows XP box that does nothing but house MP3's of my entire CD
collection, & play them through Winamp. However, I want this in
my van.

Makes more sense to start with a laptop.

I've been looking at ways to do this inexpensively,
& I found the iMON VFD bundle he
http://www.soundgraph.com/Eng_/Produ...=1&leftMenu=25

In any event, the software allows you to use the remote control to
control Winamp, so I had thought maybe I could mount the VFD w/
knob in the dash (like any other audio deck) & run cables back to
the PC, which will likely sit behind the driver's seat somewhere.
However, after reading some reviews, I found out that not only do
you need a USB cable to connect (which is easily extendable), you
also need to tie directly into the PC's power supply, which can
be done w/ the included 24-pin cable adapter. My question is,
does anyone else know a possible way around this, i.e. a 24-pin
cable extension (really long, like several feet), or some other
way I can accomplish this? I think this would be an awesome
setup to have - no more radio, just endless MP3 goodness...but I
need to figure out a way to make it work first. Any thoughts?

Makes more sense to start with a decent mp3 player.

The problem is, I can't afford the $400 60GB iPod that I want;

OK, in that case it makes more sense to start with a surplus laptop.

secondly, that may not be enough to store all the MP3s I want
(at 192kbps) to store. In essense, I want to take my entire music
collection with me @ 192Kbps, which a 60GB iPod just won't do.

OK, but there are real downsides in starting with a desktop system
when you want to use it in a van. Makes more sense to start with a
laptop and add an extra hard drive via USB or firewire if you need
more space.

[kony]

On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 08:15:03 +1000, "Rod Speed"
wrote:

wrote:

The only "surplus" laptop I have is an old Win98 Acer beast that is hardly
capable of doing what I want, even if I did add a secondary HDD via USB.

There's plenty of others available like on ebay.

And if 60GB isn't enough, the typically sized laptop drive
may not be either.



Besides, that would be unweildly compared to a
neatly compact custom case mod, I would think.

'think' again.

"Think" that it doesn't matter a whole lot, a half taken
apart laptop is butt-ugly, a whole one looks too hackish,
and one recased is same situation as non-laptop parts, but
about 2 dozen cubic inches smaller comparing like
peripherals (IF for some reason OP would make due with
laptop optical, HDD, etc.




Although having the laptop screen would come in handy...

It'd likely be more practical to have a small lcd screen mounted
in the dash, plugged into the laptop external monitor connector.

Quite possibly, I didn't check on what features that in-dask
product did that was linked previously. IF it is well
designed for the purpose, it could be enough for MP3. Not
everything needs VGA display.


The fundamental problem with using a desktop system is
the inverter you need to power it and the mess that the
power cabling involves.

You dont need any of that with a laptop.


Oh?
A desktop could run from a ~13.x volt electrical system, I
mean a PSU merely designed for this as many EPIA/et al. are.
A laptop still needs the power adapter which is a similar
small switching PSU, though step-UP and only one output.
Splitting hairs really, while the laptop could be cheaper,
it might not be.

There are actually people who build these things, and they
often use the EPIA-esque boards, though there is one other
benefit to the laptop, that having a battery it's immune to
voltage depression or cut-out when starting the car (van).

[kony]

On 18 Aug 2006 14:00:54 -0700,
wrote:

Nice. I'm not sure I'd need to have the "power-on" feature tied in; I
think I could handle powering it on manually - that wouldn't be a
problem. It's not like I plan on using the thing extensively on short
trips in town (5 blocks here & there), but more for when I go visit my
folks or travel for other things. That's when it will really come in
handy. I have a post on SoundGraph's website basically asking the same
thing - I wonder if they'll echo that in terms of using the USB for
power & data or if there HAS to be power coming from somewhere else
regardless of the "power-on" feature.



I didn't look over that website thoroughly, you might see if
you can dig up a detailed spec sheet or other more technical
documentation.... and/or a really good picture of the tap it
makes into that ATX PSU connector.

Even so, if you're stringing the USB cable anyway, it might
be as well to go ahead and put down a second cable... easier
to add the features now than go back and fiddle with it
later. Presuming it does as written previously, you'd need
a cable from PSU PS-On pin, a supply line (if over the USB
cable isn't enough current or wrong voltage). If the PSU
shares ground with the chassis and you can ground it all,
you only need these two wires. The PS-On line out to ground
is chassis ground, as is the power ground (though odds are
good they're already part of the same ground plane on the
board, depending on how well this gadget is made).

Maybe it does more than I'm envisioning though, you might
email their tech support (giving your email address this
way) requesting for the spec sheets if not linked anywhere
else.

[Rod Speed]

kony wrote
Rod Speed wrote
wrote

The only "surplus" laptop I have is an old Win98 Acer beast that is
hardly capable of doing what I want, even if I did add a secondary
HDD via USB.

There's plenty of others available like on ebay.

And if 60GB isn't enough, the typically sized laptop drive may not be either.

Trivial to add whatever is required in USB/firewire addons.

Besides, that would be unweildly compared to a
neatly compact custom case mod, I would think.

'think' again.

"Think" that it doesn't matter a whole lot,
a half taken apart laptop is butt-ugly,

No need to take it apart at all, stupid.

a whole one looks too hackish, and one recased is same
situation as non-laptop parts, but about 2 dozen cubic inches
smaller comparing like peripherals (IF for some reason OP
would make due with laptop optical, HDD, etc.

Makes much more sense to just use a laptop.

Although having the laptop screen would come in handy...

It'd likely be more practical to have a small lcd screen mounted
in the dash, plugged into the laptop external monitor connector.

Quite possibly, I didn't check on what features that
in-dask product did that was linked previously. IF
it is well designed for the purpose, it could be
enough for MP3. Not everything needs VGA display.

Never said it did, just that thats a convenient way to do it.

The fundamental problem with using a desktop system is
the inverter you need to power it and the mess that the
power cabling involves.

You dont need any of that with a laptop.

Oh?
A desktop could run from a ~13.x volt electrical system, I
mean a PSU merely designed for this as many EPIA/et al. are.

Makes a hell of a lot more sense to use a laptop instead.

A laptop still needs the power adapter which is a similar small
switching PSU, though step-UP and only one output.Splitting
hairs really, while the laptop could be cheaper, it might not be.

There's more involved than the price. Powering from the
car is trivially doable with any laptop. Not so easy otherwise.

There are actually people who build these things, and they
often use the EPIA-esque boards, though there is one other
benefit to the laptop, that having a battery it's immune to
voltage depression or cut-out when starting the car (van).

And you just plug the readily available bits together.

[MOSFET]

Having a car-based computer is certainly a cool idea in theory. I have
kicked the idea around myself as I have my old computer (a Pentium II) just
sitting around in my garage gathering dust.

But in practice, it has one MAJOR drawback: boot-up lag time. Even a one or
two year old Pentium 4 takes several minutes to boot up Windows 95/98 or XP.
If you think about much of the driving we do (to the local "stop-and-rob" or
the video store down the street) it just doesn't make any sense as your
in-car computer will be ready to play MP3's right about the same time you
reach your destination. This just isn't a problem at home or in the office
where we always leave our computers on, but it would be in a car.

However, an MP3 equiped head-unit is ready to go when you turn the key. And
of course, the cost of portable MP3 players (like the iPod) are going down
everyday. Most HU (head units) today are equiped to handle an input from
another source, like an MP3 player. In my car, I have a portable DVD player
connected to my HU, you can see pictures of my system at:
http://www428.pair.com/mosfet/mtx.html

These portable DVD units have become VERY inexpensive and you can play DVD's
recorded with MP3's (which will hold over 5 gigs of MP3's). True, not as
much as an iPod, but for many people, that's their entire music collection
all on one disc.

I think in the end the eventual costs (you will need an LCD monitor, power
transformer, etc.) in both dollars a AND TIME of trying to retrofit a PC
into a car would be more than just going the HU/iPod (or any other portable
MP3 player) route.

My $.02,

MOSFET

[kony]

On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 17:29:14 -0700, "MOSFET"
wrote:

Having a car-based computer is certainly a cool idea in theory. I have
kicked the idea around myself as I have my old computer (a Pentium II) just
sitting around in my garage gathering dust.

But in practice, it has one MAJOR drawback: boot-up lag time. Even a one or
two year old Pentium 4 takes several minutes to boot up Windows 95/98 or XP.


One a fully configured desktop system, having lots of stuff
loaded into the background, yes it can take well over one
minute, upwards of two.

On a lightly configured desktop system, not even as
stripped-down as an MP3 player could be, it is easily
possible to make it boot in closer to 30 seconds, even less
if the bios is very fast or it's coming out of hybernation
(there is also a way to hibernate and have it not "re-"
hibernate, so the shutdown sequence is not important, every
time it boots it reloads the correct config.

Even booting off a far slower device than a modern HDD, it
can boot (rather than come up from hibernation) in less than
one minute with XP, and even faster with Win98lite.



If you think about much of the driving we do (to the local "stop-and-rob" or
the video store down the street) it just doesn't make any sense as your
in-car computer will be ready to play MP3's right about the same time you
reach your destination. This just isn't a problem at home or in the office
where we always leave our computers on, but it would be in a car.

Not true at all, even if it took 2-3 minutes. If you find
yourself driving somewhere that only takes a minute or two
you might consider walking to save the startup wear on the
car.





However, an MP3 equiped head-unit is ready to go when you turn the key. And
of course, the cost of portable MP3 players (like the iPod) are going down
everyday. Most HU (head units) today are equiped to handle an input from
another source, like an MP3 player. In my car, I have a portable DVD player
connected to my HU, you can see pictures of my system at:
http://www428.pair.com/mosfet/mtx.html

These portable DVD units have become VERY inexpensive and you can play DVD's
recorded with MP3's (which will hold over 5 gigs of MP3's). True, not as
much as an iPod, but for many people, that's their entire music collection
all on one disc.

I think in the end the eventual costs (you will need an LCD monitor, power
transformer, etc.) in both dollars a AND TIME of trying to retrofit a PC
into a car would be more than just going the HU/iPod (or any other portable
MP3 player) route.


One important factor may be how much storage space is
needed. Personally I wouldn't go to so much trouble for
MP3s, rather than a lossless format, but even with MP3 an
avid music fan could have more GB than a DVD would hold, and
they might not want the compromises of the portable players
like sound quality. Granted many building car computers use
bad quality integrated audio anyway but at least there's the
option for better when it's modular.

[MOSFET]

On a lightly configured desktop system, not even as
stripped-down as an MP3 player could be, it is easily
possible to make it boot in closer to 30 seconds, even less
if the bios is very fast or it's coming out of hybernation
(there is also a way to hibernate and have it not "re-"
hibernate, so the shutdown sequence is not important, every
time it boots it reloads the correct config.

By "coming out of hybernation mode", I assume you mean that the computer is
still "on" even when the car is off. Perhaps I don't fully understand what
EXACTLY hibernation mode entails, but I have always believed it meant the
computer was still "on" (at least to some small degree), which means it
would still draw power even when the car is off. I suppose this would be an
acceptable compromise as long as the current draw while in "standby mode"
was very, very small (and would not run the battery dead after three-four
days of sitting without running). If that is possible then this idea
becomes MUCH more feasable. Perhaps the system can be configured to
INSTANTLY go into stanby mode when the ignition is turned off. That would
certainly address the issue of "lag-time" and might take it off the table.

Now don't get me wrong. I think a computer in the car could be REALLY
handy. Besides being about to play MP3's/movies/music video's.etc., there
are other functions a computer could provide in a car (wireless LAN
communication for Email, Web access, navigation, a printer, etc.). I'm not
saying that computers in the car is a bad idea, in fact, I suspect HU's in
the near future will more and more begin to resemble computers with small
built in HD's, SD card ports (some already have these types of ports in
front of the HU), larger color displays, more supported media formats (like
JPEG's, AVI files, MOV files, etc.). The future looks VERY exciting for the
world of in car head units. And the best part is that prices are dropping
every day.

I just feel like the mony/time spent on trying to reasemble an existing PC
to integrate within a car presents all sort of problems that devices
SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED for the automotive environment do not have. Again,
IMHO, that's the way I see it anyway.

MOSFET

[Rod Speed]

MOSFET wrote:

On a lightly configured desktop system, not even as
stripped-down as an MP3 player could be, it is easily
possible to make it boot in closer to 30 seconds, even less
if the bios is very fast or it's coming out of hybernation
(there is also a way to hibernate and have it not "re-"
hibernate, so the shutdown sequence is not important, every
time it boots it reloads the correct config.

By "coming out of hybernation mode", I assume you mean that the
computer is still "on" even when the car is off. Perhaps I don't
fully understand what EXACTLY hibernation mode entails, but I have
always believed it meant the computer was still "on" (at least to
some small degree),

Nope, it means that the ram contents were written to the hib file on the
drive and the ram is reloaded from the hib file when the system is turned on.

which means it would still draw power even when the car is off.

Thats sleep, nothing like hibernate.

I suppose this would be an acceptable compromise as long as
the current draw while in "standby mode" was very, very small
(and would not run the battery dead after three-four days of sitting
without running). If that is possible then this idea becomes MUCH
more feasable. Perhaps the system can be configured to INSTANTLY
go into stanby mode when the ignition is turned off. That would
certainly address the issue of "lag-time" and might take it off the table.

And laptops do that better than desktops.

Now don't get me wrong. I think a computer in the car could be REALLY
handy. Besides being about to play MP3's/movies/music video's.etc.,
there are other functions a computer could provide in a car (wireless
LAN communication for Email, Web access, navigation, a printer, etc.).

And that is a lot easier to do with a laptop than a desktop and you
could just unplug it and take it out of the car as required etc too.

I'm not saying that computers in the car is a bad idea, in fact,
I suspect HU's in the near future will more and more begin to
resemble computers with small built in HD's, SD card ports (some
already have these types of ports in front of the HU), larger color
displays, more supported media formats (like JPEG's, AVI files, MOV
files, etc.). The future looks VERY exciting for the world of in car
head units. And the best part is that prices are dropping every day.

Yeah, the 60G ipods are a ripoff price wise, tho thats mostly
due to the hard drives they use, no need for that in a car, the
2.5" laptop drives are much better value and perfectly viable
in a car when you dont need the robustness or low power
demand that you get with the drives used in 60G ipods.

I just feel like the mony/time spent on trying to reasemble an existing
PC to integrate within a car presents all sort of problems that devices
SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED for the automotive environment do not have.

Yep, which is why it makes a lot more sense
to use a laptop instead of a butchered desktop.

Again, IMHO, that's the way I see it anyway.

Me too.

[MOSFET]

and
they might not want the compromises of the portable players
like sound quality.

And something else....

Frankly, I think my portable DVD player sounds GREAT playing MP3's over my
HU (I use high-end cables to attach the DVD player to the Alpine). In fact,
I can not tell the difference whether an MP3 is playing over my Alpine 9853
(an MP3 compatible HU) or through my Magnavox DVD player. I have actually
experimented with this EXTENSIVELY (having my wife play the same MP3 over
each source and then quickly A/B it, so I can't see which one she's using
and I can't tell ANY difference).

The reason for this I believe: two things. First, it's MP3 for Pete's sake.
Even at higher bit rates, the SQ is just not the same as CD (there just
always seems like somethings "missing" to me when I listen to an MP3, some
hard to define quality best described as "openenss" or "pressense" or the
quality of being "alive". Second, it's the car environment. In a car, the
sound must compete with the engine noise, air-noise, tire vibration, etc.
Even if very subtle differences do exist between certain formats and
devices, these differences are difficult to discern in a moving car. It's
easier if the car is parked with the engine running, and best if the car is
parked and the engine is stopped (only then will these subtle differences
possibly be heard). Of course, I have 38 year old years, and for much of
those years I have listened to EAR BLEEDING bass in monster systems I have
built. So perhaps I am not the best judge, but again, this is my opinion.

MOSFET

[MOSFET]

t
And that is a lot easier to do with a laptop than a desktop and you
could just unplug it and take it out of the car as required etc too.

DAMN GOOD POINT. A laptop ALREADY has the monitor, a 12 volt adaptor, AND
most do not use a traditional mouse (VERY hard to use in a car). Truly, a
taptop is the way to go.

MOSFET

[kony]

On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 20:22:31 -0700, "MOSFET"
wrote:

On a lightly configured desktop system, not even as
stripped-down as an MP3 player could be, it is easily
possible to make it boot in closer to 30 seconds, even less
if the bios is very fast or it's coming out of hybernation
(there is also a way to hibernate and have it not "re-"
hibernate, so the shutdown sequence is not important, every
time it boots it reloads the correct config.

By "coming out of hybernation mode", I assume you mean that the computer is
still "on" even when the car is off.

No, it can not only be in S5 (the official "off" state of a
desktop), but it could even be 100% disconnected, no 5VSB
support either.


Perhaps I don't fully understand what
EXACTLY hibernation mode entails, but I have always believed it meant the
computer was still "on" (at least to some small degree), which means it
would still draw power even when the car is off.

The system memory contents are written to a file on the hard
drive. The next time windows boots, it reads in the file
rather than a normal (full) boot process.

It doesn't really matter though, 98se or Xp can both boot in
under one minute.


I suppose this would be an
acceptable compromise as long as the current draw while in "standby mode"
was very, very small (and would not run the battery dead after three-four
days of sitting without running). If that is possible then this idea
becomes MUCH more feasable. Perhaps the system can be configured to
INSTANTLY go into stanby mode when the ignition is turned off. That would
certainly address the issue of "lag-time" and might take it off the table.

If there's no write catching, and since there shouldn't be a
lot of disk writes on an MP3 player, the system could
conceivably just cut out with power-off of whatever you
wanted (like one of the vehicle subsystem's power circuit).
With a perpetual hibernation setting, it does not have to
re-hibernate. While this would not be ideal for a typical,
dynamic desktop use, for a fixed function system it can work
fine.




Now don't get me wrong. I think a computer in the car could be REALLY
handy. Besides being about to play MP3's/movies/music video's.etc., there
are other functions a computer could provide in a car (wireless LAN
communication for Email, Web access, navigation, a printer, etc.).

I'm pretty much the opposite on these things, I don't think
an embedded car system needs a printer or anything more than
audio, and of course wifi if outside communication is
desired. Video playback, maybe, but this is one area where
a more traditional DVD player may suffice as wel since you
have to have the DVD to rip it anyway, else it's a long
transfer getting a few GB of video data over wifi into the
car box storage. You could instead put the DVD player IN
the car computer, but when think car computer I think
specialized case, very small w/o floppy or CDROM. OP has a
van though, I've no idea how much space is allotted.


I'm not
saying that computers in the car is a bad idea, in fact, I suspect HU's in
the near future will more and more begin to resemble computers with small
built in HD's, SD card ports (some already have these types of ports in
front of the HU), larger color displays, more supported media formats (like
JPEG's, AVI files, MOV files, etc.). The future looks VERY exciting for the
world of in car head units. And the best part is that prices are dropping
every day.

The biggest issue may be the interface and tailoring the OS
to what you want, or rather, being pleased with the
available alternatives. Same goes for any piece of gear
though, you either accept what's available or are one of the
rare few who is competent enough and enough of a glutton for
punishment to build the hardware from *scratch*.



I just feel like the mony/time spent on trying to reasemble an existing PC
to integrate within a car presents all sort of problems that devices
SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED for the automotive environment do not have. Again,
IMHO, that's the way I see it anyway.

It's not hard, it just gets expensive if you're picky about
certain custom cases, etc. There are forums and websites
selling a lot of the specialized gear, even howtos out there
if you Google search for 'em.

[kony]

On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 13:43:50 +1000, "Rod Speed"
wrote:

I suppose this would be an acceptable compromise as long as
the current draw while in "standby mode" was very, very small
(and would not run the battery dead after three-four days of sitting
without running). If that is possible then this idea becomes MUCH
more feasable. Perhaps the system can be configured to INSTANTLY
go into stanby mode when the ignition is turned off. That would
certainly address the issue of "lag-time" and might take it off the table.

And laptops do that better than desktops.


Nope, a properly configured desktop does same thing, or an
improperly configured laptop may have problems.


Now don't get me wrong. I think a computer in the car could be REALLY
handy. Besides being about to play MP3's/movies/music video's.etc.,
there are other functions a computer could provide in a car (wireless
LAN communication for Email, Web access, navigation, a printer, etc.).

And that is a lot easier to do with a laptop than a desktop and you
could just unplug it and take it out of the car as required etc too.

Are you somehow deluded into thinking he'd weld the desktop
box in? Here's the difference:

- Desktop box is slightly taller.
- Desktop box has no keyboard on it (unless one is added)
- Desktop box has no monitor on it.
- Desktop box has entirety of the PSU (board) inside it,
only a jack for the vehicle 12V in, instead of a
bricklike/wart step-up supply.



I just feel like the mony/time spent on trying to reasemble an existing
PC to integrate within a car presents all sort of problems that devices
SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED for the automotive environment do not have.

Yep, which is why it makes a lot more sense
to use a laptop instead of a butchered desktop.

You don't seem to know WTF you're talking about (again).
The typical car PC uses a flex (or smaller) ATX board, a
complimentary power board, and a barely-large-enough custom
case. It unplugs and plugs same as a laptop, has one fewer
parts than a laptop (no external power brick). Butchering
would only happen if one tried to use incompatible parts.

[kony]

On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 21:26:44 -0700, "MOSFET"
wrote:

t
And that is a lot easier to do with a laptop than a desktop and you
could just unplug it and take it out of the car as required etc too.

DAMN GOOD POINT.

Not at all, it's not easier, there's nothing less to do or
unplug with a laptop.

A laptop ALREADY has the monitor,

Yes, and it may be just an additional cost that is a waste
of money , because you can't just mount an entire laptop
inside the dash, it still has to have a remote screen.


a 12 volt adaptor,

which is bad.
you ideally do not want an adapter, you want the PSU inside
same box so you don't have extra tethered stuff going
everywhere.

AND
most do not use a traditional mouse (VERY hard to use in a car).

You seem to be ignoring the purpose, it's an integrated
system, not a "whip it out and put it on your lap system".

Again like the display, the touchpad has to be remotely
mounted. You have to either tear apart and hack a remote
mount for it, or just add one (or a trackball whatever IF
you actually need a pointer, which the OP has mentioned no
need for as an MP3 device), same as with the non-laptop box.



Truly, a
taptop is the way to go.


A laptop could work, but you and Rod are not thinking things
through much, there are plenty of examples of car PCs out
there that demonstrate different ideas for different needs.

[kony]

On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 21:01:22 -0700, "MOSFET"
wrote:

and
they might not want the compromises of the portable players
like sound quality.

And something else....

Frankly, I think my portable DVD player sounds GREAT playing MP3's over my
HU (I use high-end cables to attach the DVD player to the Alpine). In fact,
I can not tell the difference whether an MP3 is playing over my Alpine 9853
(an MP3 compatible HU) or through my Magnavox DVD player.

Are you suggesting your Magnavox DVD player is HQ?
First let's define a few terms. To really appreciate the
difference in quality, you need to use non-compressed
formats, not MP3. A really good high-bitrate MP3 may reveal
some differences but too often that alone is such a
hinderance to quality that any other part of the audio
chains' weakness may be masked.


I have actually
experimented with this EXTENSIVELY (having my wife play the same MP3 over
each source and then quickly A/B it, so I can't see which one she's using
and I can't tell ANY difference).

Whatever makes you happy?

I build my own amps, because I can hear the difference (and
to all those lurkers out there who love to issue the blind
ABX challenge, yes I can hear the difference between my amps
and typical consumer gear. Maybe not high-end gear, depends
on the gear, and uses it allows).



The reason for this I believe: two things. First, it's MP3 for Pete's sake.
Even at higher bit rates, the SQ is just not the same as CD (there just
always seems like somethings "missing" to me when I listen to an MP3, some
hard to define quality best described as "openenss" or "pressense" or the
quality of being "alive". Second, it's the car environment. In a car, the
sound must compete with the engine noise, air-noise, tire vibration, etc.
Even if very subtle differences do exist between certain formats and
devices, these differences are difficult to discern in a moving car.

Sometimes, I don't turn the radio/etc off when I stop at a
stop light, park, or whatever. I feel that arguing that
lower quality is ok, means making concessions that will
ultimately be worse. A small difference in one area, a small
difference in another area, each of which may not sound
different enough to discern on their own, additively can
sound different. That doesn't mean I advocate using fancy
technoflex silver wire and other exotic parts when uncalled
for, but personally, I'd rather have 20W of really good
sound than 500W of something I feel is passible because a
car is noisier than a home.


It's
easier if the car is parked with the engine running, and best if the car is
parked and the engine is stopped (only then will these subtle differences
possibly be heard). Of course, I have 38 year old years, and for much of
those years I have listened to EAR BLEEDING bass in monster systems I have
built. So perhaps I am not the best judge, but again, this is my opinion.

I've never been fond of high powered car subs, prefer lower
taught bass but it's far harder to keep clean in a large
metal shell (car).

[Rod Speed]

kony wrote
MOSFET wrote

And that is a lot easier to do with a laptop than a desktop and you
could just unplug it and take it out of the car as required etc too.

DAMN GOOD POINT.

Not at all, it's not easier, there's nothing less to do or
unplug with a laptop.

Corse its easier with the initial setup and with a laptop
you can use it out of the car easily if you need to too.

A laptop ALREADY has the monitor,

Yes, and it may be just an additional cost that is a waste
of money , because you can't just mount an entire laptop
inside the dash, it still has to have a remote screen.

Small LCD monitors dont cost that much.

a 12 volt adaptor,

which is bad.

Bull****.

you ideally do not want an adapter, you want the PSU inside
same box so you don't have extra tethered stuff going everywhere.

Mindless stuff. You need an inverter or a special
PSU with the butchered desktop anyway.

AND most do not use a traditional mouse (VERY hard to use in a car).

You seem to be ignoring the purpose, it's an integrated
system, not a "whip it out and put it on your lap system".

Thats the advantage of using a laptop, you can have both trivially.

Again like the display, the touchpad has to be remotely mounted.

Nope, just a receiver for a remote.

You have to either tear apart and hack a remote mount for it,

Nope, just plug it in.

or just add one (or a trackball whatever IF you actually
need a pointer, which the OP has mentioned no need
for as an MP3 device), same as with the non-laptop box.

But you dont have to modify the laptop at all, just plug it in.

Truly, a taptop is the way to go.

A laptop could work, but you and Rod are not thinking things through much,

You're the one into the significantly higher effort of a modified
desktop with its much more expensive specialist PSU and
kludged connection to the ATX power connector.

A laptop leaves that for dead, bog standard dirt cheap
car power adapter, plug everything you need into the
laptop, still use it as a laptop if you need a laptop too.

there are plenty of examples of car PCs out there
that demonstrate different ideas for different needs.

And using a modified surplus desktop system is an
abortion compared with using a bog standard laptop.

[Rod Speed]

kony wrote
Rod Speed wrote

I suppose this would be an acceptable compromise as long as
the current draw while in "standby mode" was very, very small
(and would not run the battery dead after three-four days of sitting
without running). If that is possible then this idea becomes MUCH
more feasable. Perhaps the system can be configured to INSTANTLY
go into stanby mode when the ignition is turned off. That would
certainly address the issue of "lag-time" and might take it off the table.

And laptops do that better than desktops.

Nope,

Yep.

a properly configured desktop does same thing,

Nope, that dinosaur he plans to butcher likely wont even sleep properly.

And decent laptop will sleep fine.

or an improperly configured laptop may have problems.

Mindlessly silly. No config required at all, just plug in what is required.

Now don't get me wrong. I think a computer in the car could be
REALLY handy. Besides being about to play MP3's/movies/music
video's.etc., there are other functions a computer could provide in a car
(wireless LAN communication for Email, Web access, navigation, a printer, etc.).

And that is a lot easier to do with a laptop than a desktop and you
could just unplug it and take it out of the car as required etc too.

Are you somehow deluded into thinking he'd weld the desktop box in?

Never ever could bull**** its way out of a wet paper bag.

Here's the difference:

- Desktop box is slightly taller.

MUCH taller.

- Desktop box has no keyboard on it (unless one is added)

Irrelevant and a nuisance for config.

- Desktop box has no monitor on it.

Irrelevant and a nuisance for config.

- Desktop box has entirety of the PSU (board) inside it, only a jack
for the vehicle 12V in, instead of a bricklike/wart step-up supply.

No practical difference. And thats a much more expensives specialist
PSU than a bog standard dirt cheap power supply for a laptop.

And you can use the laptop as a laptop if you want to out of the car too.

I just feel like the mony/time spent on trying to reasemble an existing
PC to integrate within a car presents all sort of problems that devices
SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED for the automotive environment do not have.

Yep, which is why it makes a lot more sense
to use a laptop instead of a butchered desktop.

You don't seem to know WTF you're talking about (again).

Easy to claim, child.

The typical car PC uses a flex (or smaller) ATX board, a complimentary
power board, and a barely-large-enough custom case.

No news to me, child.

It unplugs and plugs same as a laptop, has one
fewer parts than a laptop (no external power brick).

Still has to be connected to the car power, so thats no difference.

The dinosaur he plans to butcher likely wont even
sleep properly, any decent laptop will sleep fine.

Butchering would only happen if one tried to use incompatible parts.

Pity about the butchering involved in getting into the power supply output.

Keep desperately digging, you'll be out in china any day now, AGAIN.

[MOSFET]

Are you suggesting your Magnavox DVD player is HQ?

Of course not. But I am suggesting that the sound quality of MP3's is about
the same with the Magnavox as it is with my Alpine. With regular CD's I
have NO DOUBT there is a difference in quality (though I NEVER play regular
CD's on my Magnavox). Though the Magnavox is DEFINATELY NOT a high-end
piece of audio equipment, I suspect the MP3 decoders used in virtually ALL
consumer electronic devices are very similar (or identical).

That's all I was talking about, MP3 SQ.

MOSFET

[kony]

On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 17:51:30 +1000, "Rod Speed"
wrote:

kony wrote
MOSFET wrote

And that is a lot easier to do with a laptop than a desktop and you
could just unplug it and take it out of the car as required etc too.

DAMN GOOD POINT.

Not at all, it's not easier, there's nothing less to do or
unplug with a laptop.

Corse its easier with the initial setup and with a laptop
you can use it out of the car easily if you need to too.

Nope, because we're not talking about "use a computer in a
car", we're talking about "INTEGRATED INTO CAR"




A laptop ALREADY has the monitor,

Yes, and it may be just an additional cost that is a waste
of money , because you can't just mount an entire laptop
inside the dash, it still has to have a remote screen.

Small LCD monitors dont cost that much.

Never claimed they did, but nevertheless, having the laptop
screen will be for regular use, unnecessary and possibly an
additional expense, and possibly even additional labor to
remove that display if the desire was the smallest device
possible.




a 12 volt adaptor,

which is bad.

Bull****.

You may want extra things dongled off the box but most
people won't. Plus, you have to either hack off the lighter
adapter anyway and direct wire it, or tie up the lighter
outlet. It is desirable to have everything needed on one of
two places.

1) Inside the dash (or immediately blew the dash in a
console, like the touchpad or trackball)

2) Remote system box.




you ideally do not want an adapter, you want the PSU inside
same box so you don't have extra tethered stuff going everywhere.

Mindless stuff. You need an inverter or a special
PSU with the butchered desktop anyway.

yes, "special" PSU, a ready made part available for purchase
at several places online. Imagine that, buying something
meant to do exactly what you want instead of having a
dongled or hacked up solution.




AND most do not use a traditional mouse (VERY hard to use in a car).

You seem to be ignoring the purpose, it's an integrated
system, not a "whip it out and put it on your lap system".

Thats the advantage of using a laptop, you can have both trivially.

If you feel buying the correct PSU is a difficult thing, you
ought not bother with the rest as that's pretty quick and
easy... easier in fact, than settling on that used laptop
that was suggested previously.




Again like the display, the touchpad has to be remotely mounted.

Nope, just a receiver for a remote.

The touchpad has to be mounted in a convenient spot for the
user to access it, else the whole project was a bit of a
waste. That spot is often NOT where the rest of the system
is. Hence, no matter how you try to spin it, the laptop has
no advantages here unless you pull out the touchpad and
build a custom frame for it, which is possible, but then
touchpads aren't too expensive either, here's a touchpad or
trackball for $1/1.50 each. I don't know the pinout on the
tracball but I have a couple of the touchpads around here
somewhere, it wasn't hard to figure out pinout to attach a
ribbon cable-PS2 converter.



You have to either tear apart and hack a remote mount for it,

Nope, just plug it in.

You seem to be thinking of something entirely different than
an integrated-in-car, system. You're only thinking "wires
strung everywhere, USE a computer in a car". That's fine,
but it can be done a lot better, more professional looking
too.




or just add one (or a trackball whatever IF you actually
need a pointer, which the OP has mentioned no need
for as an MP3 device), same as with the non-laptop box.

But you dont have to modify the laptop at all, just plug it in.

if you want it messy, yes you can just plug it in the same
as you could a flex-or-smaller ATX board in tiny case. The
laptop still has no advantage here except being thinner, but
unless you pick a very small (and possibly more expensive,
modern) laptop, also wider and deeper than sub-flex ATX.




Truly, a taptop is the way to go.

A laptop could work, but you and Rod are not thinking things through much,

You're the one into the significantly higher effort of a modified
desktop with its much more expensive specialist PSU and
kludged connection to the ATX power connector.


First of all, "desktop" is a term you throw around as if it
might be some giant box. It isn't, necessarily. If you
can't think of a way to do it well, and can't be bothered to
do any research, you are particularly unfit to advocate one
alternative over another.



A laptop leaves that for dead, bog standard dirt cheap
car power adapter, plug everything you need into the
laptop, still use it as a laptop if you need a laptop too.

I can see you still don't understand. The whole idea here
is to NOT have it sitting out so you can use it like some
other device, rather to have it completely integrated and
transparent to the car occupants except of course for a well
placed display and UI.



there are plenty of examples of car PCs out there
that demonstrate different ideas for different needs.

And using a modified surplus desktop system is an
abortion compared with using a bog standard laptop.


You are clueless of what the alternative is to a laptop.

miniATX case
miniATX board
12V DC input ATX PSU

It works fine and those who have spent the time, unlike you
Rod, have made the choice. That doesn't mean it's hard, or
impossible to use a laptop instead, or disassemble the
laptop for a more integrated system, but none of these
supposed advantages are true.

[kony]

On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 18:01:07 +1000, "Rod Speed"
wrote:

kony wrote
Rod Speed wrote

I suppose this would be an acceptable compromise as long as
the current draw while in "standby mode" was very, very small
(and would not run the battery dead after three-four days of sitting
without running). If that is possible then this idea becomes MUCH
more feasable. Perhaps the system can be configured to INSTANTLY
go into stanby mode when the ignition is turned off. That would
certainly address the issue of "lag-time" and might take it off the table.

And laptops do that better than desktops.

Nope,

Yep.

a properly configured desktop does same thing,

Nope, that dinosaur he plans to butcher likely wont even sleep properly.



Rod, you're an idiot.

I never wrote "butcher", nor to use some retired old system.
You seem to be the one who can't grasp what a car MP3 player
is usually like.

[kony]

On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 10:46:39 -0700, "MOSFET"
wrote:

Are you suggesting your Magnavox DVD player is HQ?

Of course not. But I am suggesting that the sound quality of MP3's is about
the same with the Magnavox as it is with my Alpine. With regular CD's I
have NO DOUBT there is a difference in quality (though I NEVER play regular
CD's on my Magnavox). Though the Magnavox is DEFINATELY NOT a high-end
piece of audio equipment, I suspect the MP3 decoders used in virtually ALL
consumer electronic devices are very similar (or identical).


It doesn't matter, the sound quality difference isn't just
from the MP3 decoder, that is just one extra requirement and
the rest of the system still has all the same requirements
as it always did.

Granted, starting out with low quality source, the
difference isn't as audible. To me that is no excuse to
settle for a lower quality system, it's a reason to move up
to higher quality source.

[Rod Speed]

kony wrote
Rod Speed wrote
kony wrote
MOSFET wrote

And that is a lot easier to do with a laptop than a desktop and
you could just unplug it and take it out of the car as required
etc too.

DAMN GOOD POINT.

Not at all, it's not easier, there's nothing less to do or
unplug with a laptop.

Corse its easier with the initial setup and with a laptop
you can use it out of the car easily if you need to too.

Nope,

Yep.

because we're not talking about "use a computer in a
car", we're talking about "INTEGRATED INTO CAR"

Irrelevant to whether the laptop will be easier to integrate
into the car when its got a full monitor and keyboard etc for
convenient setup and for use out of the car if required too
and no need to fart around with a special case and power
supply either, completely bog standard components plugged
into the laptop. No need to fart around with the ATX power
connector either.

A laptop ALREADY has the monitor,

Yes, and it may be just an additional cost that is a waste
of money , because you can't just mount an entire laptop
inside the dash, it still has to have a remote screen.

Small LCD monitors dont cost that much.

Never claimed they did, but nevertheless, having
the laptop screen will be for regular use,

Wrong, JUST for the setup, not for regular use. You
have a small LCD monitor in the dash for regular use.

unnecessary and possibly an additional expense,

He's going to need something in the dash in either
config, and a small LCD monitor thats plugged into
the laptop will be cheaper than that special he cited.

and possibly even additional labor to remove that
display if the desire was the smallest device possible.

That would be a terminally stupid thing to do, if you
want the smallest device possible, the only thing that
makes any sense is one of the smallest laptops.

a 12 volt adaptor,

which is bad.

Bull****.

You may want extra things dongled off the box but most people won't.

You get no say what so ever on what most people want.

Anyone with a clue prefers a bog standard dirt cheap
laptop car adapter and not a much more expensive
and specialised power supply for the butchered PC
that can run of the car 12V supply.

Plus, you have to either hack off the lighter adapter
anyway and direct wire it, or tie up the lighter outlet.

Just as true of the butchered desktop.

It is desirable to have everything needed on one of two places.

Not when its a much more expensive specialised power supply.

1) Inside the dash (or immediately blew the dash
in a console, like the touchpad or trackball)

2) Remote system box.

Perfectly feasible with the laptop and much more
convenient if you need a laptop out of the car as well.

Completely bog standard dirt cheap laptop components.

you ideally do not want an adapter, you want the PSU inside
same box so you don't have extra tethered stuff going everywhere.

Mindless stuff. You need an inverter or a special
PSU with the butchered desktop anyway.

yes, "special" PSU, a ready made part
available for purchase at several places online.

Vastly more floggers of car adapters
for laptops, at much better prices too.

Imagine that, buying something meant to do exactly what
you want instead of having a dongled or hacked up solution.

Mindless stuff. The laptop car adapters dont need any hacking up.

AND most do not use a traditional mouse
(VERY hard to use in a car).

You seem to be ignoring the purpose, it's an integrated
system, not a "whip it out and put it on your lap system".

Thats the advantage of using a laptop, you can have both trivially.

If you feel buying the correct PSU is a difficult thing,

Nope, just pointless and much higher priced
than a bog standard laptop car power adapter.

you ought not bother with the rest as that's pretty
quick and easy... easier in fact, than settling on
that used laptop that was suggested previously.

Wrong again with the new case required, the fact
that that dinosaur wont sleep properly, no screen
or keyboard for the initial config, etc etc etc.

Again like the display, the touchpad has to be remotely mounted.

Nope, just a receiver for a remote.

The touchpad has to be mounted in a convenient spot for the
user to access it, else the whole project was a bit of a waste.

You aint established that there needs to be a touchpad.

Just a remote and a small LCD monitor in the dash is all you need.

That spot is often NOT where the rest of the system is.
Hence, no matter how you try to spin it, the laptop has
no advantages here unless you pull out the touchpad and
build a custom frame for it,

Wrong again when you use a remote instead of the touchpad.

which is possible, but then touchpads aren't too expensive
either, here's a touchpad or trackball for $1/1.50 each.
I don't know the pinout on the tracball but I have a couple
of the touchpads around here somewhere, it wasn't hard
to figure out pinout to attach a ribbon cable-PS2 converter.

Lot easier to use a remote. Trivially buyable.

You have to either tear apart and hack a remote mount for it,

Nope, just plug it in.

You seem to be thinking of something entirely
different than an integrated-in-car, system.

Wrong, as always.

You're only thinking "wires strung
everywhere, USE a computer in a car".

Wrong, as always. Same number of wires as your abortion.

That's fine, but it can be done a lot
better, more professional looking too.

Not a ****ing clue, as always.

or just add one (or a trackball whatever IF you actually
need a pointer, which the OP has mentioned no need
for as an MP3 device), same as with the non-laptop box.

But you dont have to modify the laptop at all, just plug it in.

if you want it messy, yes you can just plug it in the same
as you could a flex-or-smaller ATX board in tiny case.

Wrong, as always. Same number of wires as your abortion.

The laptop still has no advantage here except being thinner,

Wrong, as always. It will sleep perfectly, unlikely your abortion which
wont even sleep at all, and thats completely ****ed for that application.

And you can use the laptop out of the car effortlessly too.

but unless you pick a very small (and possibly more expensive,
modern) laptop, also wider and deeper than sub-flex ATX.

If you care about that, you get a very small laptop, stupid.

Not a shred of rocket science required at all, even you should
be able to manage that if someone was actually stupid enough
to lend you a seeing eye dog and a white cane.

Truly, a taptop is the way to go.

A laptop could work,

Corse it will work. And a hell of a lot better than your abortion
since its got a full screen and keyboard for easy config and
will sleep properly. Unlike your complete abortion that doesnt
even have a proper screen and keyboard and wont sleep either.

but you and Rod are not thinking things through much,

You're the one into the significantly higher effort of a modified
desktop with its much more expensive specialist PSU and
kludged connection to the ATX power connector.

First of all, "desktop" is a term you throw
around as if it might be some giant box.

Wrong again, I never said a word about the size of it.

It isn't, necessarily.

Duh.

If you can't think of a way to do it well, and can't be
bothered to do any research, you are particularly
unfit to advocate one alternative over another.

Never ever could bull**** its way out of a wet paper bag.

I am well aware of the small boxes, ****wit child.

A laptop leaves that for dead, bog standard dirt cheap
car power adapter, plug everything you need into the
laptop, still use it as a laptop if you need a laptop too.

I can see you still don't understand.

Never ever could bull**** its way out of a wet paper bag.

The whole idea here is to NOT have it sitting out so you can
use it like some other device, rather to have it completely
integrated and transparent to the car occupants except
of course for a well placed display and UI.

Complete trivial to do with a laptop. USING COMPLETELY
BOG STANDARD DIRT CHEAP EXTRA COMPONENTS TOO.

And with the convenience of a decent screen and
keyboard for initial setup and fiddling with the config
and your complete abortion wont even sleep properly.
Its a steaming turd for that reason alone, child.

there are plenty of examples of car PCs out there
that demonstrate different ideas for different needs.

And using a modified surplus desktop system is an
abortion compared with using a bog standard laptop.

You are clueless of what the alternative is to a laptop.

Never ever could bull**** its way out of a wet paper bag.

miniATX case
miniATX board
12V DC input ATX PSU

A laptop leaves that for dead, child.

It works fine and those who have spent the
time, unlike you Rod, have made the choice.

Never ever could bull**** its way out of a wet paper bag.

That doesn't mean it's hard, or impossible to use a laptop instead,

Its actually EASIER with completely bog standard components, ****wit child.

or disassemble the laptop for a more integrated system,

Only a fool would be stupid enough to do that. You qualify.

but none of these supposed advantages are true.

Pathetic, really. You've clearly never actually done it, if you
had the lack of a screen and keyboard for config would have
stood out like dogs balls. In spades when that abortion wont
even sleep properly.

[Rod Speed]

kony wrote
Rod Speed wrote
kony wrote
Rod Speed wrote

I suppose this would be an acceptable compromise as long as
the current draw while in "standby mode" was very, very small
(and would not run the battery dead after three-four days of
sitting without running). If that is possible then this idea
becomes MUCH
more feasable. Perhaps the system can be configured to INSTANTLY
go into stanby mode when the ignition is turned off. That would
certainly address the issue of "lag-time" and might take it off
the table.

And laptops do that better than desktops.

Nope,

Yep.

a properly configured desktop does same thing,

Nope, that dinosaur he plans to butcher likely wont even sleep properly.

Rod, you're an idiot.

gutless, you're a terminal ****wit/pathetic excuse for a bull**** artist.

I never wrote "butcher",

You didnt need to, ****wit child.

nor to use some retired old system.

Pity the OP clearly did, ****wit child.

You seem to be the one who can't grasp
what a car MP3 player is usually like.

You cant even manage to read and comprehend
what the OP actually asked about, ****wit child.

AND EVEN IF YOU DO PLAN TO START FROM SCRATCH
WITH ALL NEW HARDWARE, IT MAKES A HELL OF A LOT
MORE SENSE TO START WITH A LAPTOP BECAUSE THAT
HAS THE SCREEN AND KEYBOARD FOR INITIAL CONFIG
AND CONVENIENT TROUBLESHOOTING WHEN IT GLITCHES,
THAN IT EVER DOES TO ASSEMBLE A COLLECTION OF
MORE EXPENSIVE AND SPECIALIST CRAP WHICH WILL
HAVE LESS CAPABILITY THAN ANY LAPTOP WILL HAVE.

[kony]

On Sun, 20 Aug 2006 07:08:26 +1000, "Rod Speed"
wrote:



Irrelevant to whether the laptop will be easier to integrate
into the car when its got a full monitor and keyboard etc for
convenient setup and for use out of the car if required too
and no need to fart around with a special case and power
supply either, completely bog standard components plugged
into the laptop. No need to fart around with the ATX power
connector either.


You are obviously, one again clueless but pretending to have
insight on something you have never done yourself.

There is no particular integration need for the full monitor
and keyboard, the entire deveopment and testing process for
the system is done before installation.

Plugging stuff into a laptop will be a crude and theft prone
solution. Go ahead and pretend otherwise but remeber,
others have built car MP3 players and you could learn a lot
from them.

[MOSFET]

Of course not. But I am suggesting that the sound quality of MP3's is
about
the same with the Magnavox as it is with my Alpine. With regular CD's I
have NO DOUBT there is a difference in quality (though I NEVER play
regular
CD's on my Magnavox). Though the Magnavox is DEFINATELY NOT a high-end
piece of audio equipment, I suspect the MP3 decoders used in virtually
ALL
consumer electronic devices are very similar (or identical).


It doesn't matter, the sound quality difference isn't just
from the MP3 decoder, that is just one extra requirement and
the rest of the system still has all the same requirements
as it always did.

Granted, starting out with low quality source, the
difference isn't as audible. To me that is no excuse to
settle for a lower quality system, it's a reason to move up
to higher quality source.

I'm not "settling" for anything. First, I love the MP3 format. While it
may not be as good as regular CD, it comes pretty darn close. But because
MP3 is not as good as CD that, to me, is even MORE reason to focus on SQ in
a system (to compensate, perhaps, for the inadaqucies of the MP3 format).

I am not talking about the rest of my system where I use high-end Phoenix
Gold interconnects, high-end speaker wire, very good JL midbass drivers (I
currently am auditioning some high-end McIntosh tweeters in my car for the
front stage, which is bi-amped, I use NO passive X-overs in my system).
BTW, these McIntosh soft-dome tweeters sound VERY good (extremelly crisp,
but not fatigueing like my old MB Quart PTD25's).

My point, again, was simply that I hear no difference between MP3's decoded
by my Magnavox vs. my Alpine. That was ALL I was refering to.

MOSFET

[MOSFET]

Alright kids, break it up.

This isn't a ****ing contest, it's a discusion forum. Try to stay away from
personal slurs and obsenities. Sometimes you just have to agree to
disagree.

CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG!!!!

MOSFET

[kony]

On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 17:00:12 -0700, "MOSFET"
wrote:

Alright kids, break it up.

This isn't a ****ing contest, it's a discusion forum. Try to stay away from
personal slurs and obsenities. Sometimes you just have to agree to
disagree.

CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG!!!!

MOSFET



This is a common trend for Rod. Anyone who bothers can
Google search for car MP3 players and see examples, even
tutorials. There are books on the subject as well, this is
not some new frontier but a known set of tasks and there is
plenty of advice out there on how to do it well.

Unfortuately for Rod, he jumped the gun, taking a side then
determined to argue it into the ground. Nevermind the vast
majority of evidence, Rod wants to use a laptop thus the
normal way most people do it, couldn't possibly work as well
in his mind.

[kony]

On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 16:54:48 -0700, "MOSFET"
wrote:

Of course not. But I am suggesting that the sound quality of MP3's is
about
the same with the Magnavox as it is with my Alpine. With regular CD's I
have NO DOUBT there is a difference in quality (though I NEVER play
regular
CD's on my Magnavox). Though the Magnavox is DEFINATELY NOT a high-end
piece of audio equipment, I suspect the MP3 decoders used in virtually
ALL
consumer electronic devices are very similar (or identical).


It doesn't matter, the sound quality difference isn't just
from the MP3 decoder, that is just one extra requirement and
the rest of the system still has all the same requirements
as it always did.

Granted, starting out with low quality source, the
difference isn't as audible. To me that is no excuse to
settle for a lower quality system, it's a reason to move up
to higher quality source.

I'm not "settling" for anything. First, I love the MP3 format. While it
may not be as good as regular CD, it comes pretty darn close. But because
MP3 is not as good as CD that, to me, is even MORE reason to focus on SQ in
a system (to compensate, perhaps, for the inadaqucies of the MP3 format).

I disagree.
Acknowledging it's not as good, means that you'll be able to
hear the difference even more clearly on good equipment.
This is a known fact, visit any audiophile forum and ask
them.... I participate in 3 regularly.



I am not talking about the rest of my system where I use high-end Phoenix
Gold interconnects, high-end speaker wire, very good JL midbass drivers (I
currently am auditioning some high-end McIntosh tweeters in my car for the
front stage, which is bi-amped, I use NO passive X-overs in my system).
BTW, these McIntosh soft-dome tweeters sound VERY good (extremelly crisp,
but not fatigueing like my old MB Quart PTD25's).

You're thinking like a high powered car amp nut, not like an
audiophile. That's fine, if that's what you want. Your
hearing may have degraded enough that you couldn't even hear
the difference, perhaps.




My point, again, was simply that I hear no difference between MP3's decoded
by my Magnavox vs. my Alpine. That was ALL I was refering to.

That's fine. Everyone has their own approach.
The issue wasn't the decoding of the MP3 though, it was that
the maximum possible quality of the decoded MP3 is one
important parameter limited by the lossly nature of MP3,
and the second important parameter is the overall audio
quality of the device- in that regard it doesn't matter if
it's decoding MP3s or not, but rather how it transmits ANY
analog audio signal. The analog stages of an amp/pre are
more important than the decoder today, as MP3 decoding is
mature already but analog is back magic to today's digital
engineers who pretend SNR is all there is.

[MOSFET]

The issue wasn't the decoding of the MP3 though, it was that
the maximum possible quality of the decoded MP3 is one
important parameter limited by the lossly nature of MP3,
and the second important parameter is the overall audio
quality of the device- in that regard it doesn't matter if
it's decoding MP3s or not, but rather how it transmits ANY
analog audio signal.

OK, I'll concede that. The output stage of my Magnavox is certainly not
high-end and may (to some degree) effect SQ. Fine.

But I go back to my original point that in an automotive environment that
difference simply is not audible.

Look, I consider myself an audiophile (I am CONSTANTLY trying different
combinations of high-end speakers and high-end tweeters up front in an
attempt to reach "sonic nirvana"). At home I use Michael Greene Designs
MD-80 speakers and I think I know how good speakers should sound (my CD
player is California Audio Labs). So I know how jsut how good a CD can
sound.

So am I to gather from your "audiophile status" that you never use the MP3
format (nose a little too high in the air for those "commoner" formats)? If
so, I pitty you. It's convience FAR AND AWAY makes up for the VERY SMALL
degradation in SQ (a degradation, again, BARELY, if at all, discernable in a
moving car). If you disagree with this assesment (an assesment, BTW,
generally agreed upon by industry experts) than clearly we must agree to
disagree.

I, too, commonly read those other high-end groups and I subscribe to
Stereophile, BTW. I have been listening to YEARS to those guys groaning and
moaning about how the MP3 format is leading the industry towards poorer SQ
formats, instead of better SQ formats. Just look at how poorly DVD-Audio is
doing and that tells you all you need to know about where this industry is
going.

But don't kid yourself, there's a lot of "smoke and mirrors" in the world of
high-end audio, as well. What about Shakti Stones and Marigio dots? What a
bunch of crap. And this UTTERLY RIDICULOUS 10 year-old campaign that vinal
LP's sound better than CD's if played on a $10,000 Rega turntable with a
Conrad Johnson/Levinson/Krell/ amp. BS. CD's sound better, pure and
simple. And adding a $500 Shaki stone (and all it is is a rock, BTW) will
make absolutely no difference whatsover.

But, remember, so much about the audio world is subjective. Do not forget
this fact. It really all boils down to "whatever floats your boat". This
is what I have concluded after over 20 years in and out of the industry (I
worked for Phoenix Gold for a time). If you hear a difference adding a $500
rock or a tine blue Margio dot, MORE POWER TO YOU!

MOSFET

[kony]

On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 18:34:11 -0700, "MOSFET"
wrote:


But don't kid yourself, there's a lot of "smoke and mirrors" in the world of
high-end audio, as well. What about Shakti Stones and Marigio dots? What a
bunch of crap. And this UTTERLY RIDICULOUS 10 year-old campaign that vinal
LP's sound better than CD's if played on a $10,000 Rega turntable with a
Conrad Johnson/Levinson/Krell/ amp. BS. CD's sound better, pure and
simple. And adding a $500 Shaki stone (and all it is is a rock, BTW) will
make absolutely no difference whatsover.



Yes there's lots of smoke and mirrors. In one forum you'll
even hear of people proclaiming the metal composition of the
FEET the amp stands on, make a difference.

However, through all the smoke I see a common theme- do no
harm. If someone wants to pretend that exotic wire or
whatever is worth the obscene prices, it's their wallet, but
at least these things don't generally harm the audio
quality. On the other hand, MP3 is known to do so. If we
were talking about what to use on a 256MB MP3 flash
thumbdrive player, MP3 might necessarily be used, but when
considering alternatives where the storage medium can hold
several, even dozens or hundreds of GB of data, it makes no
sense to use MP3 to me.

[MOSFET]

were talking about what to use on a 256MB MP3 flash
thumbdrive player, MP3 might necessarily be used, but when
considering alternatives where the storage medium can hold
several, even dozens or hundreds of GB of data, it makes no
sense to use MP3 to me.

What do you mean? I'm not sure I'm getting your point.

Are you advocating another compression format besides MP3? That's what it
sounds like. You are saying that if you have hundreds of gigs to play with,
then MP3 makes no sense. Well, what DOES make sense?

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm truly curious. You seem like a
sincere audiophile and I'm curious if there is a particular format that you
DO advocate (besides just plain regular CD's, of course).

Like many audiophiles who are unhappy about the popularity of MP3 (they see
it as a backwards trend, a movemnet towards poorer SQ), I, too, wish there
was a better format. I CAN tell the difference between a song ripped to MP3
(even at high bit-rates like 256Kbps) compared to CD (there's just some
quality, often hard to define, that just seems missing, an "openess" or
"airyness").

But I am willing to compromise on this slight SQ degradation in return for
the incredible flexibility the MP3 format gives me.

I know, I know, a true Audiophile (with a captial "A") would not comprimise
(if he thought AC power generated by hydro-electric damns made for "cleaner
power" and better SQ than other power sources, he would move to the Pacific
Northwest). I am not that fanatical and I DO appreciate convience.

But if there's a better compression format, I'm all ears.

MOSFET

[kony]

On Sun, 20 Aug 2006 23:32:29 -0700, "MOSFET"
wrote:

were talking about what to use on a 256MB MP3 flash
thumbdrive player, MP3 might necessarily be used, but when
considering alternatives where the storage medium can hold
several, even dozens or hundreds of GB of data, it makes no
sense to use MP3 to me.

What do you mean? I'm not sure I'm getting your point.

Point is, MP3's only advantage is smaller file size (and for
some, ill-gotten music but OP already mentioned having the
CDs ), which can make the most of limited memory or be
useful for transmisssion over slow internet connections, but
today we have massive amounts of storage space that fits in
your hand.


Are you advocating another compression format besides MP3? That's what it
sounds like. You are saying that if you have hundreds of gigs to play with,
then MP3 makes no sense. Well, what DOES make sense?

Take your pick?
I'm not a big fan of MS' proprietary formats, but I'd even
go with lossless WMA before MP3. More significant in a DIY
player "might" be what the player (or software/codec add-on)
supports. FLAC gets about 2:1 compression IIRC, and amount
of compression usually tends to depend on the host decoding
speed if not supported in hardware (hardware support is not
necessary but again it depends on the hardware and/or OS
used), but for lossy even Ogg Vorbis beats MP3. Fans of
Apple might even go with AAC for surround on video playback
rather than MP3.

Granted, when I think MP3, I'm usually assuming one means a
moderate bitrate, most people choosing MP3 don't use
256-320kbps, they choose something at a lower bitrate.



I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm truly curious. You seem like a
sincere audiophile and I'm curious if there is a particular format that you
DO advocate (besides just plain regular CD's, of course).

Today we have affordable HDDs in the 300-400GB range
(affordable merely meaning, cost per GB goes up
significantly at much higher GB/drive), it wouldn't be bad
to just use uncompressed WAV if it was necessary, and it
certainly has good support with minimal decoding
requirement.


Like many audiophiles who are unhappy about the popularity of MP3 (they see
it as a backwards trend, a movemnet towards poorer SQ), I, too, wish there
was a better format. I CAN tell the difference between a song ripped to MP3
(even at high bit-rates like 256Kbps) compared to CD (there's just some
quality, often hard to define, that just seems missing, an "openess" or
"airyness").

Yes, treble definition is the first casuality, even if it
doesn't sound like a muddy underwater performance. The
better the equipment, the more this is noticed.



But I am willing to compromise on this slight SQ degradation in return for
the incredible flexibility the MP3 format gives me.

You may have different requirements then, when building a
car audio player with computer components, the only real
flexibility required is that it be able to play it, and of
course the ability to encode that from the source. If the
source were already MP3, we have a special case where the
quality was already degraded and there is no point in
turning it into a higher bitrate with the sound degradation
having already happened... but so long as the software isn't
crippled, several audio formats are do-able on a
car-by-programmable-computer player.


I know, I know, a true Audiophile (with a captial "A") would not comprimise
(if he thought AC power generated by hydro-electric damns made for "cleaner
power" and better SQ than other power sources, he would move to the Pacific
Northwest). I am not that fanatical and I DO appreciate convience.


LOL. Not all Audiophiles go that extreme, some things are
more reasonable than others. An audiophile might go for
more pre-equipment AC filtering, shielded power cables and
balanced power though... and add more/better power
filtration in some of their equipment.

Convenience is nice, but what's inconvenient about having
more than MP3 support in a car player? If your desktop can
do it, odds are pretty good it can be done on the car player
too.

[MOSFET]

Convenience is nice, but what's inconvenient about having
more than MP3 support in a car player? If your desktop can
do it, odds are pretty good it can be done on the car player
too.

Good point.

[[email protected]]

Geez, this topic got out of hand fast!

Here's my updated thoughts. I was thinking of integrating this:

http://lcdsmartie.sourceforge.net/

with this:

http://www.pjrc.com/store/mp3_display.html

since the software has functionality to allow for directory, file &
playlist selection, as well as the ability to let me program additional
functionality (like a button to activate Winamp's random button). And,
since Winamp 5.X & above are fully backwards compatible with Winamp 2.0
(which the LCD Smartie claims it's only capable of handling),
theoretically it should work. So, I think w/ the system I have (fairly
quick boot w/ 1.5Ghz P4, 768MB RAM), I should be able to use the system
in tandem w/ my current HU (has a headphone-jack type line-in), & I
just need to spend the $25 for a DC converter w/ AC plugs to mount
behind the seat (where an available DC plug is), & find a custom case
for my setup that will hold all the contents (I was thinking of using
an old, oversided VCR once it was completely gutted). What do you all
think of this possibility?