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  #1   Report Post  
Brian
 
Posts: n/a
Default your Car Amplifier advice, please!

Please offer your advice on what amp to get. I've wasted a lot of
time/money and its time to seek some expert advice before going any
further!

I've managed to cram a Dynaudio System 360 into the front doors and
kick-panels of a 2003 Passat. (3-way system with 8" midbass, 3"
softdome midrange, and 1" softdome tweeter.) In the rear doors is a
Dynaudio System 240 (2-way system with 6-1/2" midbass and 1" softdome
tweeter.) All speakers are standard 4ohm.

I'd like to power these full range (no subs) using the Dynaudio
passive crossover boxes.

The amp characteristic I'm trying to achieve would be similar to an
Aragon 8008 (home audio amp). I've not been able to find a car audio
amp that sounds like it. Its a very neutral sound. Doesn't add
anything thats not already there, but just faithfully provides
everything thats in the recording.

Here's the amps I've tried so far:

PPI PCX-4125 (125W x4ch) -- I love the rich midrange and midbass,
but the highs are a little rough and there is absolutely no extended
highs ("air") at all.

Zapco C2K-6.0X (150W x2ch -- used to power all 4 speakers as a 2ohm
stereo load) -- This amp is incredibly clean-sounding. The extended
highs are immaculate. But it sounds thin in the midrange, as if
something is missing. The meat and potatoes just not there.

Butler Tube Driver Blue TDB-475 (75W x4ch) -- From what I've read, I
expected this amp to be the solution, but it sounds weak in the bass
and mid-bass and is just not neutral enough. It has an interesting
sound, but is somehow "fake", as if the sound is going through some
kind of sound processer to give it some sort of "effect". (I guess
thats what the tubes are adding to the sound?) The music just didn't
sound "real" to me.

I actually hooked up my Aragon 8008 home amp to run these Dynaudio
speakers, and it sounded perfect, so its not just a case of me
searching for something thats impossible. Is there a car amp that can
do what the Aragon can do? (If it was possible to convert the Aragon
to run on 12VDC, I would!)

Do you have any opinions on an amp that is very neutral, but also has
some "meat and potatoes" in the midrange and midbass? (that has the
rich PPI mid-bass/mid-range, but also with the Zapco's pristine
extended-highs.)

(4 channel is preferred, but not mandatory)

Any guidance would be greatly appreciated !! Thank you.
  #2   Report Post  
Tony Fernandes
 
Posts: n/a
Default your Car Amplifier advice, please!

What head unit are you using?

Tony


--



What's more likely? That an all-powerful mysterious god created the
universe and then decided not to give any proof of his existence? Or, that
he simply doesn't exist at all? And that we created him so that we wouldn't
have to feel so small and alone. -Eleanor Arroway, Contact

"Brian" wrote in message
om...
Please offer your advice on what amp to get. I've wasted a lot of
time/money and its time to seek some expert advice before going any
further!

I've managed to cram a Dynaudio System 360 into the front doors and
kick-panels of a 2003 Passat. (3-way system with 8" midbass, 3"
softdome midrange, and 1" softdome tweeter.) In the rear doors is a
Dynaudio System 240 (2-way system with 6-1/2" midbass and 1" softdome
tweeter.) All speakers are standard 4ohm.

I'd like to power these full range (no subs) using the Dynaudio
passive crossover boxes.

The amp characteristic I'm trying to achieve would be similar to an
Aragon 8008 (home audio amp). I've not been able to find a car audio
amp that sounds like it. Its a very neutral sound. Doesn't add
anything thats not already there, but just faithfully provides
everything thats in the recording.

Here's the amps I've tried so far:

PPI PCX-4125 (125W x4ch) -- I love the rich midrange and midbass,
but the highs are a little rough and there is absolutely no extended
highs ("air") at all.

Zapco C2K-6.0X (150W x2ch -- used to power all 4 speakers as a 2ohm
stereo load) -- This amp is incredibly clean-sounding. The extended
highs are immaculate. But it sounds thin in the midrange, as if
something is missing. The meat and potatoes just not there.

Butler Tube Driver Blue TDB-475 (75W x4ch) -- From what I've read, I
expected this amp to be the solution, but it sounds weak in the bass
and mid-bass and is just not neutral enough. It has an interesting
sound, but is somehow "fake", as if the sound is going through some
kind of sound processer to give it some sort of "effect". (I guess
thats what the tubes are adding to the sound?) The music just didn't
sound "real" to me.

I actually hooked up my Aragon 8008 home amp to run these Dynaudio
speakers, and it sounded perfect, so its not just a case of me
searching for something thats impossible. Is there a car amp that can
do what the Aragon can do? (If it was possible to convert the Aragon
to run on 12VDC, I would!)

Do you have any opinions on an amp that is very neutral, but also has
some "meat and potatoes" in the midrange and midbass? (that has the
rich PPI mid-bass/mid-range, but also with the Zapco's pristine
extended-highs.)

(4 channel is preferred, but not mandatory)

Any guidance would be greatly appreciated !! Thank you.



  #3   Report Post  
fhlh002
 
Posts: n/a
Default your Car Amplifier advice, please!

Sounds like you need to talk to pete.

http://www.theautophile.com/

FHLH



"Brian" wrote in message
om...
Please offer your advice on what amp to get. I've wasted a lot of
time/money and its time to seek some expert advice before going any
further!

I've managed to cram a Dynaudio System 360 into the front doors and
kick-panels of a 2003 Passat. (3-way system with 8" midbass, 3"
softdome midrange, and 1" softdome tweeter.) In the rear doors is a
Dynaudio System 240 (2-way system with 6-1/2" midbass and 1" softdome
tweeter.) All speakers are standard 4ohm.

I'd like to power these full range (no subs) using the Dynaudio
passive crossover boxes.

The amp characteristic I'm trying to achieve would be similar to an
Aragon 8008 (home audio amp). I've not been able to find a car audio
amp that sounds like it. Its a very neutral sound. Doesn't add
anything thats not already there, but just faithfully provides
everything thats in the recording.

Here's the amps I've tried so far:

PPI PCX-4125 (125W x4ch) -- I love the rich midrange and midbass,
but the highs are a little rough and there is absolutely no extended
highs ("air") at all.

Zapco C2K-6.0X (150W x2ch -- used to power all 4 speakers as a 2ohm
stereo load) -- This amp is incredibly clean-sounding. The extended
highs are immaculate. But it sounds thin in the midrange, as if
something is missing. The meat and potatoes just not there.

Butler Tube Driver Blue TDB-475 (75W x4ch) -- From what I've read, I
expected this amp to be the solution, but it sounds weak in the bass
and mid-bass and is just not neutral enough. It has an interesting
sound, but is somehow "fake", as if the sound is going through some
kind of sound processer to give it some sort of "effect". (I guess
thats what the tubes are adding to the sound?) The music just didn't
sound "real" to me.

I actually hooked up my Aragon 8008 home amp to run these Dynaudio
speakers, and it sounded perfect, so its not just a case of me
searching for something thats impossible. Is there a car amp that can
do what the Aragon can do? (If it was possible to convert the Aragon
to run on 12VDC, I would!)

Do you have any opinions on an amp that is very neutral, but also has
some "meat and potatoes" in the midrange and midbass? (that has the
rich PPI mid-bass/mid-range, but also with the Zapco's pristine
extended-highs.)

(4 channel is preferred, but not mandatory)

Any guidance would be greatly appreciated !! Thank you.



  #4   Report Post  
Brian
 
Posts: n/a
Default your Car Amplifier advice, please!

The head unit in my car is a Kenwood KDC-V7017. But for the
test/comparison I used a home preamp. An ADCOM top-of-the-line unit
that is Stereophile "Class A" rated. Its completely neutral sounding.

_________



"Tony Fernandes" wrote in message ...
What head unit are you using?

Tony


  #5   Report Post  
Captain Howdy
 
Posts: n/a
Default your Car Amplifier advice, please!

Now you're going to get all of the noobs in here telling you that all amps
sound the same.


In article ,
(Brian) wrote:
Please offer your advice on what amp to get. I've wasted a lot of
time/money and its time to seek some expert advice before going any
further!

I've managed to cram a Dynaudio System 360 into the front doors and
kick-panels of a 2003 Passat. (3-way system with 8" midbass, 3"
softdome midrange, and 1" softdome tweeter.) In the rear doors is a
Dynaudio System 240 (2-way system with 6-1/2" midbass and 1" softdome
tweeter.) All speakers are standard 4ohm.

I'd like to power these full range (no subs) using the Dynaudio
passive crossover boxes.

The amp characteristic I'm trying to achieve would be similar to an
Aragon 8008 (home audio amp). I've not been able to find a car audio
amp that sounds like it. Its a very neutral sound. Doesn't add
anything thats not already there, but just faithfully provides
everything thats in the recording.

Here's the amps I've tried so far:

PPI PCX-4125 (125W x4ch) -- I love the rich midrange and midbass,
but the highs are a little rough and there is absolutely no extended
highs ("air") at all.

Zapco C2K-6.0X (150W x2ch -- used to power all 4 speakers as a 2ohm
stereo load) -- This amp is incredibly clean-sounding. The extended
highs are immaculate. But it sounds thin in the midrange, as if
something is missing. The meat and potatoes just not there.

Butler Tube Driver Blue TDB-475 (75W x4ch) -- From what I've read, I
expected this amp to be the solution, but it sounds weak in the bass
and mid-bass and is just not neutral enough. It has an interesting
sound, but is somehow "fake", as if the sound is going through some
kind of sound processer to give it some sort of "effect". (I guess
thats what the tubes are adding to the sound?) The music just didn't
sound "real" to me.

I actually hooked up my Aragon 8008 home amp to run these Dynaudio
speakers, and it sounded perfect, so its not just a case of me
searching for something thats impossible. Is there a car amp that can
do what the Aragon can do? (If it was possible to convert the Aragon
to run on 12VDC, I would!)

Do you have any opinions on an amp that is very neutral, but also has
some "meat and potatoes" in the midrange and midbass? (that has the
rich PPI mid-bass/mid-range, but also with the Zapco's pristine
extended-highs.)

(4 channel is preferred, but not mandatory)

Any guidance would be greatly appreciated !! Thank you.



  #6   Report Post  
Soundfreak03
 
Posts: n/a
Default your Car Amplifier advice, please!

Now you're going to get all of the noobs in here telling you that all amps
sound the same.


Howdy Doody, you are back. Bummer.
Most, those that have been here a few months, know that I am not a noob and I
say this; When you operate an amp within its' linear range any differences that
exist, and they do, are inaudible to the human ear.
That statement can be, and has been, proven several times over. Graphs, charts,
and actual scientific listening tests have proven it time and time again, yet
you insist that all of the scientific data is wrong and you are right. Provide
some sort of scientific evidence that we can actually hear the differences and
then someone might take you seriously.
Never forget the power of the brain to trick you, it is called physcoacoustics.
Oh and Howdy if your so good then why do you not take the challenge from Clark,
Puggy says he knows him so he can probably get you in.

Les
Right, because Howdy is always wrong.
  #7   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default your Car Amplifier advice, please!

Here's the amps I've tried so far:

PPI PCX-4125 (125W x4ch) -- I love the rich midrange and midbass,
but the highs are a little rough and there is absolutely no extended
highs ("air") at all.

Zapco C2K-6.0X (150W x2ch -- used to power all 4 speakers as a 2ohm
stereo load) -- This amp is incredibly clean-sounding. The extended
highs are immaculate. But it sounds thin in the midrange, as if
something is missing. The meat and potatoes just not there.


That's odd. The frequency response of these two amps is identical.


  #8   Report Post  
Tony Fernandes
 
Posts: n/a
Default your Car Amplifier advice, please!

Well, Brian, although I don't want to dismiss several other senior members'
tesimony about all amps sounding the same, I have to sympathize with you. I
too feel I can describe in detail the different qualites of different
amplifiers. I dunno...maybe this is physcoacoustics as Soundfreak suggests.
I still have a lot to learn, so who knows...maybe my opinion will change
over time..

So IN THE MEAN TIME I suggest you contact Pete Lufrano as FHLH suggested. I
belive he has experience with several of the amps you mentioned. I've heard
nothing but good things about Brax amplifiers, which he just happens to
sell. :-)

Having said that I want to know if you've auditioned Phoenix Gold amps. ZX
series, or the newer Titanium series. I've been hooked on them for years.
The happiest I have ever been in terms of SQ was when I had my Nakamichi
CD-700 powering the aforementioned PG amps wtih the same Dyn 360 set you
have. The only bad thing I can say is I was running the entire system
actively with the built-in PG xovers and it sounded a little artificial.
Some people I talked to seemed to believe that the Linkweitz Reilly (I know
I'm not spelling that right) xovers that PG uses are to blame for this. When
I ran the system using the Dyn passive xovers this didn't seem to be a
problem...although this presented another problem in that at higher volumes
it lost quite a bit of detail. I am currently in the process of getting the
360 set into my Maxima and I'll be running the 8-inch midwoofer actively and
using the Dyn passive xover for the tweets and mids. Kind of a balance
between the two problems I mentioned.

Well, more than you asked for. Hope it helps.

Tony



--



What's more likely? That an all-powerful mysterious god created the
universe and then decided not to give any proof of his existence? Or, that
he simply doesn't exist at all? And that we created him so that we wouldn't
have to feel so small and alone. -Eleanor Arroway, Contact

"Brian" wrote in message
om...
Please offer your advice on what amp to get. I've wasted a lot of
time/money and its time to seek some expert advice before going any
further!

I've managed to cram a Dynaudio System 360 into the front doors and
kick-panels of a 2003 Passat. (3-way system with 8" midbass, 3"
softdome midrange, and 1" softdome tweeter.) In the rear doors is a
Dynaudio System 240 (2-way system with 6-1/2" midbass and 1" softdome
tweeter.) All speakers are standard 4ohm.

I'd like to power these full range (no subs) using the Dynaudio
passive crossover boxes.

The amp characteristic I'm trying to achieve would be similar to an
Aragon 8008 (home audio amp). I've not been able to find a car audio
amp that sounds like it. Its a very neutral sound. Doesn't add
anything thats not already there, but just faithfully provides
everything thats in the recording.

Here's the amps I've tried so far:

PPI PCX-4125 (125W x4ch) -- I love the rich midrange and midbass,
but the highs are a little rough and there is absolutely no extended
highs ("air") at all.

Zapco C2K-6.0X (150W x2ch -- used to power all 4 speakers as a 2ohm
stereo load) -- This amp is incredibly clean-sounding. The extended
highs are immaculate. But it sounds thin in the midrange, as if
something is missing. The meat and potatoes just not there.

Butler Tube Driver Blue TDB-475 (75W x4ch) -- From what I've read, I
expected this amp to be the solution, but it sounds weak in the bass
and mid-bass and is just not neutral enough. It has an interesting
sound, but is somehow "fake", as if the sound is going through some
kind of sound processer to give it some sort of "effect". (I guess
thats what the tubes are adding to the sound?) The music just didn't
sound "real" to me.

I actually hooked up my Aragon 8008 home amp to run these Dynaudio
speakers, and it sounded perfect, so its not just a case of me
searching for something thats impossible. Is there a car amp that can
do what the Aragon can do? (If it was possible to convert the Aragon
to run on 12VDC, I would!)

Do you have any opinions on an amp that is very neutral, but also has
some "meat and potatoes" in the midrange and midbass? (that has the
rich PPI mid-bass/mid-range, but also with the Zapco's pristine
extended-highs.)

(4 channel is preferred, but not mandatory)

Any guidance would be greatly appreciated !! Thank you.



  #9   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default your Car Amplifier advice, please!

So IN THE MEAN TIME I suggest you contact Pete Lufrano as FHLH suggested.
I
belive he has experience with several of the amps you mentioned. I've

heard
nothing but good things about Brax amplifiers, which he just happens to
sell. :-)


If history is any indication, Peter will say "The president of Dynaudio uses
Brax. Why don't you?"


  #10   Report Post  
Brandon Buckner
 
Posts: n/a
Default your Car Amplifier advice, please!

Adcom makes/has made car audio amplifiers. You could try one of them if
you like them. Might check ebay. Also check out the Diamond Audio D5 or
D7 amps.

Brandonb


Brian wrote:
The head unit in my car is a Kenwood KDC-V7017. But for the
test/comparison I used a home preamp. An ADCOM top-of-the-line unit
that is Stereophile "Class A" rated. Its completely neutral sounding.

_________



"Tony Fernandes" wrote in message ...

What head unit are you using?

Tony





  #11   Report Post  
fhlh002
 
Posts: n/a
Default your Car Amplifier advice, please!

It's called VOODOO Autosound....

"Mark Zarella" wrote in message

That's odd. The frequency response of these two amps is identical.




  #12   Report Post  
Paul Vina
 
Posts: n/a
Default your Car Amplifier advice, please!

I doubt it was psychoacoustics, you probably drove your amp into clipping
(which is al ot easier to do than you might think) which is when they start
to sound different.


Paul Vina




"Tony Fernandes" wrote in message
...
Well, Brian, although I don't want to dismiss several other senior

members'
tesimony about all amps sounding the same, I have to sympathize with you.

I
too feel I can describe in detail the different qualites of different
amplifiers. I dunno...maybe this is physcoacoustics as Soundfreak

suggests.
I still have a lot to learn, so who knows...maybe my opinion will change
over time..

So IN THE MEAN TIME I suggest you contact Pete Lufrano as FHLH suggested.

I
belive he has experience with several of the amps you mentioned. I've

heard
nothing but good things about Brax amplifiers, which he just happens to
sell. :-)

Having said that I want to know if you've auditioned Phoenix Gold amps.

ZX
series, or the newer Titanium series. I've been hooked on them for years.
The happiest I have ever been in terms of SQ was when I had my Nakamichi
CD-700 powering the aforementioned PG amps wtih the same Dyn 360 set you
have. The only bad thing I can say is I was running the entire system
actively with the built-in PG xovers and it sounded a little artificial.
Some people I talked to seemed to believe that the Linkweitz Reilly (I

know
I'm not spelling that right) xovers that PG uses are to blame for this.

When
I ran the system using the Dyn passive xovers this didn't seem to be a
problem...although this presented another problem in that at higher

volumes
it lost quite a bit of detail. I am currently in the process of getting

the
360 set into my Maxima and I'll be running the 8-inch midwoofer actively

and
using the Dyn passive xover for the tweets and mids. Kind of a balance
between the two problems I mentioned.

Well, more than you asked for. Hope it helps.

Tony



--



What's more likely? That an all-powerful mysterious god created the
universe and then decided not to give any proof of his existence? Or,

that
he simply doesn't exist at all? And that we created him so that we

wouldn't
have to feel so small and alone. -Eleanor Arroway, Contact

"Brian" wrote in message
om...
Please offer your advice on what amp to get. I've wasted a lot of
time/money and its time to seek some expert advice before going any
further!

I've managed to cram a Dynaudio System 360 into the front doors and
kick-panels of a 2003 Passat. (3-way system with 8" midbass, 3"
softdome midrange, and 1" softdome tweeter.) In the rear doors is a
Dynaudio System 240 (2-way system with 6-1/2" midbass and 1" softdome
tweeter.) All speakers are standard 4ohm.

I'd like to power these full range (no subs) using the Dynaudio
passive crossover boxes.

The amp characteristic I'm trying to achieve would be similar to an
Aragon 8008 (home audio amp). I've not been able to find a car audio
amp that sounds like it. Its a very neutral sound. Doesn't add
anything thats not already there, but just faithfully provides
everything thats in the recording.

Here's the amps I've tried so far:

PPI PCX-4125 (125W x4ch) -- I love the rich midrange and midbass,
but the highs are a little rough and there is absolutely no extended
highs ("air") at all.

Zapco C2K-6.0X (150W x2ch -- used to power all 4 speakers as a 2ohm
stereo load) -- This amp is incredibly clean-sounding. The extended
highs are immaculate. But it sounds thin in the midrange, as if
something is missing. The meat and potatoes just not there.

Butler Tube Driver Blue TDB-475 (75W x4ch) -- From what I've read, I
expected this amp to be the solution, but it sounds weak in the bass
and mid-bass and is just not neutral enough. It has an interesting
sound, but is somehow "fake", as if the sound is going through some
kind of sound processer to give it some sort of "effect". (I guess
thats what the tubes are adding to the sound?) The music just didn't
sound "real" to me.

I actually hooked up my Aragon 8008 home amp to run these Dynaudio
speakers, and it sounded perfect, so its not just a case of me
searching for something thats impossible. Is there a car amp that can
do what the Aragon can do? (If it was possible to convert the Aragon
to run on 12VDC, I would!)

Do you have any opinions on an amp that is very neutral, but also has
some "meat and potatoes" in the midrange and midbass? (that has the
rich PPI mid-bass/mid-range, but also with the Zapco's pristine
extended-highs.)

(4 channel is preferred, but not mandatory)

Any guidance would be greatly appreciated !! Thank you.





  #13   Report Post  
Captain Howdy
 
Posts: n/a
Default your Car Amplifier advice, please!

In article , othanks (Soundfreak03) wrote:
Now you're going to get all of the noobs in here telling you that all amps
sound the same.


Howdy Doody, you are back. Bummer.
Most, those that have been here a few months, know that I am not a noob and I
say this; When you operate an amp within its' linear range any differences that
exist, and they do, are inaudible to the human ear.
That statement can be, and has been, proven several times over. Graphs, charts,
and actual scientific listening tests have proven it time and time again, yet
you insist that all of the scientific data is wrong and you are right. Provide
some sort of scientific evidence that we can actually hear the differences and
then someone might take you seriously.


Take me for what you will, I don't care. I can hear the difference between
amps and more so on the low end. The onboard processing that amps come with
now days set them apart more then ever in sound differences. I'm not the only
one with super human hearing, there are more of us that are in the wrong, that
shell out all kinds of money for pure class A and tube amps and such. We even
go through all kinds of amps until we find "the one" that takes a liking to
our super human hears. It's crazy, isn't it?


Never forget the power of the brain to trick you, it is called physcoacoustics.
Oh and Howdy if your so good then why do you not take the challenge from Clark,
Puggy says he knows him so he can probably get you in.


I'm in Canada, where is he?

Les
Right, because Howdy is always wrong.


If you say so, you go on being right and I'll go on being wrong. I'm totally
fine with that.
  #14   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default your Car Amplifier advice, please!

Howdy Doody, you are back. Bummer.
Most, those that have been here a few months, know that I am not a noob

and I
say this; When you operate an amp within its' linear range any

differences that
exist, and they do, are inaudible to the human ear.
That statement can be, and has been, proven several times over. Graphs,

charts,
and actual scientific listening tests have proven it time and time again,

yet
you insist that all of the scientific data is wrong and you are right.

Provide
some sort of scientific evidence that we can actually hear the

differences and
then someone might take you seriously.


Take me for what you will, I don't care. I can hear the difference between
amps and more so on the low end.


After you admitted to never performing a properly controlled test, your
statement is meaningless. I can hear the difference between amps too when I
don't perform the necessary controls. I think everyone can.

The onboard processing that amps come with
now days set them apart more then ever in sound differences. I'm not the

only
one with super human hearing, there are more of us that are in the wrong,

that
shell out all kinds of money for pure class A and tube amps and such. We

even
go through all kinds of amps until we find "the one" that takes a liking

to
our super human hears. It's crazy, isn't it?


Not really. If it makes you happy, go for it. You should, however, be
honest with yourself about it by acknowledging that the laws of physics
apply to your car too.


  #15   Report Post  
Captain Howdy
 
Posts: n/a
Default your Car Amplifier advice, please!



After you admitted to never performing a properly controlled test, your
statement is meaningless. I can hear the difference between amps too when I
don't perform the necessary controls. I think everyone can.


What necessary controls are you talking?




Not really. If it makes you happy, go for it. You should, however, be
honest with yourself about it by acknowledging that the laws of physics
apply to your car too.

I guess that the laws of physics apply to your car more then mine lol.


  #16   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default your Car Amplifier advice, please!

After you admitted to never performing a properly controlled test, your
statement is meaningless. I can hear the difference between amps too

when I
don't perform the necessary controls. I think everyone can.


What necessary controls are you talking?


I thought we had already discussed this before. The most crucial ones are
level matching, double-blind testing using the appropriate statistical
measures, and assuring linearity during operation.


  #17   Report Post  
John Durbin
 
Posts: n/a
Default your Car Amplifier advice, please!

To me, the telling comments were these:

"just faithfully provides everything thats in the recording."

Q: How do you know? Were you present in the studio when it was mixed down?

and:

"there is absolutely no extended highs ("air") at all."

This, in an amp that is flat out to 50kHz and has usable bandwidth out
to 100kHz? Right...

last:

"From what I've read, I expected this amp to be the solution,"

There's a rich breeding ground for psychoacoustics if I ever saw one...

JD


fhlh002 wrote:

It's called VOODOO Autosound....

"Mark Zarella" wrote in message


That's odd. The frequency response of these two amps is identical.









  #18   Report Post  
Tha Ghee
 
Posts: n/a
Default your Car Amplifier advice, please!

"Brian" wrote in message
om...
Please offer your advice on what amp to get. I've wasted a lot of
time/money and its time to seek some expert advice before going any
further!


(4 channel is preferred, but not mandatory)

Any guidance would be greatly appreciated !! Thank you.


I would add Genesis, LinearPower, a/d/s/, and....I can't think of my last
option.


  #19   Report Post  
Captain Howdy
 
Posts: n/a
Default your Car Amplifier advice, please!

Level matching my nuts lol, Take a 200watt Profile and a 200watt Orion for
say, crank the gain wide open and let me know if the **** sounds the same. How
many people do you know of that setup their amps with oscilloscopes? Most
people crank their amps for all that they are worth.

I thought we had already discussed this before. The most crucial ones are
level matching, double-blind testing using the appropriate statistical
measures, and assuring linearity during operation.


  #20   Report Post  
jwest
 
Posts: n/a
Default your Car Amplifier advice, please!

"Frequency response" doesn't speak to sound quality. I and a good friend of
mine who sings for a living can make the same range of sound come out of our
bodies. However, anyone that thinks that that fact makes me a substitute for
him as a singer doesn't know music from sound.


"Mark Zarella" wrote in message
...
Here's the amps I've tried so far:

PPI PCX-4125 (125W x4ch) -- I love the rich midrange and midbass,
but the highs are a little rough and there is absolutely no extended
highs ("air") at all.

Zapco C2K-6.0X (150W x2ch -- used to power all 4 speakers as a 2ohm
stereo load) -- This amp is incredibly clean-sounding. The extended
highs are immaculate. But it sounds thin in the midrange, as if
something is missing. The meat and potatoes just not there.


That's odd. The frequency response of these two amps is identical.






  #21   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default your Car Amplifier advice, please!

Level matching my nuts lol, Take a 200watt Profile and a 200watt Orion for
say, crank the gain wide open and let me know if the **** sounds the same.


It's important to level match because the assertion, as I've stated it many
many times, is that the two sound the same IF both are running at the same
volume level and they're both running in their linear operating range (that
is, one isn't clipping). When one is running at a louder volume than the
other, or one is driven into distortion, then of course you can perceive a
difference!

How
many people do you know of that setup their amps with oscilloscopes? Most
people crank their amps for all that they are worth.


Yeah, but that's not the question at hand. Follow closely.


  #22   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default your Car Amplifier advice, please!

"Frequency response" doesn't speak to sound quality. I and a good friend
of
mine who sings for a living can make the same range of sound come out of

our
bodies. However, anyone that thinks that that fact makes me a substitute

for
him as a singer doesn't know music from sound.


I'm sorry, but you're wrong. Any signal, whether it's your voice or a
voltage or anything else, can be fully classified by its frequency and phase
response, and can actually be recreated just by knowing these two
parameters. The difference in your voices can be fully represented by
differences in the frequency domain. I suggest you do some introductory
reading on Fourier transforms.


  #23   Report Post  
Soundfreak03
 
Posts: n/a
Default your Car Amplifier advice, please!

Level matching my nuts lol, Take a 200watt Profile and a 200watt Orion for
say, crank the gain wide open and let me know if the **** sounds the same.
How
many people do you know of that setup their amps with oscilloscopes? Most
people crank their amps for all that they are worth.


So?? It doesn't change the FACT that when you level match amps and operate them
linearly they sound the same. All of this BS about "air" and lacks midrange
when an amps freq. resp. is FLAT from 10Hz-50KHz is ridiculous. Different
levels, crossover points, bass boost, distortion, and your own ears tricking
you is the differences. Why do you fight so hard to deny what is a fact?

Les
  #24   Report Post  
Captain Howdy
 
Posts: n/a
Default your Car Amplifier advice, please!

Thats like saying that I can keep up to your corvette on my bmx bike just as
long as you are behind the car pushing it. Might be true, but in the real
world, it's totally pointless.


In article , "Mark Zarella"
wrote:
Level matching my nuts lol, Take a 200watt Profile and a 200watt Orion for
say, crank the gain wide open and let me know if the **** sounds the same.


It's important to level match because the assertion, as I've stated it many
many times, is that the two sound the same IF both are running at the same
volume level and they're both running in their linear operating range (that
is, one isn't clipping). When one is running at a louder volume than the
other, or one is driven into distortion, then of course you can perceive a
difference!

How
many people do you know of that setup their amps with oscilloscopes? Most
people crank their amps for all that they are worth.


Yeah, but that's not the question at hand. Follow closely.


  #26   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default your Car Amplifier advice, please!

Thats like saying that I can keep up to your corvette on my bmx bike just
as
long as you are behind the car pushing it. Might be true, but in the real
world, it's totally pointless.


It's not pointless when your assertion is that amplifiers inherently have
different sound attributes even when the power is the same. When you make
that statement, you have to make certain that the power is kept the same for
each case if you want to test your assertion.

If instead your assertion is that amplifiers can sound different at
different power levels, then you won't find anyone who argues with you on
that point.


  #27   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default your Car Amplifier advice, please!

This brings me to my point, Different levels, crossover points, bass
boost,
distortion and whatever else may factor in. The point is that this guy is
hearing differences in these amplifiers.


Right. Then the solution to his problem is: buy a bigger amp - it won't
matter what name is stamped on the front.

I'm guessing he'd find that solution unsatisfactory. He appears convinced
that there's an audible component independent of output power capabilities
(and tone/crossover controls of course).


  #29   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default your Car Amplifier advice, please!

In addition lol, Take this big ass silly turd of a PPI PC4100 that I have
sitting here, It's a 4 channel 4x 100watt rms at 4ohms, No matter what

you do
you will not get the front channels to sound the same as the rears, why?

Well,
that's because the front and rear x-overs are not evenly matched and can

not
be bypassed.


Yikes. Short some wires. Make the op amps look like a buffer.


  #30   Report Post  
TheBIessedDead
 
Posts: n/a
Default your Car Amplifier advice, please!

Thats like saying that I can keep up to your corvette on my bmx bike just as
long as you are behind the car pushing it. Might be true, but in the real
world, it's totally pointless.


It seems to me that the point being made is that if a Corvette is going 5 miles
an hour, and a bike is also going exactly 5 miles an hour... One will not be
"faster" than the other. Now, if you floor the pedal on that Corvette,
obviously its going to ditch the bike. But with everything being equal, they
perform the same.

If a cheap amp is putting out a real 100 watts, and an expensive amp is putting
out the same 100 watts, the differences won't be audible. At least, thats how
I am understanding this whole debate.

Nick


  #31   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default your Car Amplifier advice, please!

It seems to me that the point being made is that if a Corvette is going 5
miles
an hour, and a bike is also going exactly 5 miles an hour... One will not

be
"faster" than the other. Now, if you floor the pedal on that Corvette,
obviously its going to ditch the bike. But with everything being equal,

they
perform the same.

If a cheap amp is putting out a real 100 watts, and an expensive amp is

putting
out the same 100 watts, the differences won't be audible. At least, thats

how
I am understanding this whole debate.


That's correct. And we're also assuming that neither amp is being driven
into clipping when trying to attain that 100 watts.


  #32   Report Post  
Soundfreak03
 
Posts: n/a
Default your Car Amplifier advice, please!

This brings me to my point, Different levels, crossover points, bass boost,
distortion and whatever else may factor in. The point is that this guy is
hearing differences in these amplifiers.


But what is he actually hearing and what is psycoacoustics? The stuff about
"air" and lacks midrange is frankly crap. How can you hear the difference that
isn't there? Most amps I have tested or seen tests of are flat from somewhere
around 10-50,000Hz. No difference. When you understand that alot of differences
are inaudible you can then understand that there are more important things to
consider when choosing an amp. The OP was looking at all of this SQ stuff when
there are more important things. You perpetuate that myth by not recognizing
the fact that they all sound the same (under the listed conditions) and
recognize that there are more important factors at play.

Les
  #33   Report Post  
Soundfreak03
 
Posts: n/a
Default your Car Amplifier advice, please!

Thats like saying that I can keep up to your corvette on my bmx bike just as
long as you are behind the car pushing it. Might be true, but in the real
world, it's totally pointless.



Totally pointless analogy too.
But it is not totally pointless about SQ of amps. There are more important
factors at play that should be considered, which we have discussed before.

Les
  #34   Report Post  
Captain Howdy
 
Posts: n/a
Default your Car Amplifier advice, please!

With all of the different options between amps such as x-overs, bass-boost,
compression, it's hard to get any two amps to sound the same. Another problem
is that 100watts is not the same between any two amps. Although I see what you
are saying, in the real world where you have a guy popping an amp into his car
and tuning it by hear and more often then not to get max power out of the amp
driving it into clipping or out of the performance range of the previous amp,
its easier then not to hear audible differences between amps, in this case
especially in low end, since low end requires the most power to drive.


In article , "Mark Zarella"
wrote:
It seems to me that the point being made is that if a Corvette is going 5

miles
an hour, and a bike is also going exactly 5 miles an hour... One will not

be
"faster" than the other. Now, if you floor the pedal on that Corvette,
obviously its going to ditch the bike. But with everything being equal,

they
perform the same.

If a cheap amp is putting out a real 100 watts, and an expensive amp is

putting
out the same 100 watts, the differences won't be audible. At least, thats

how
I am understanding this whole debate.


That's correct. And we're also assuming that neither amp is being driven
into clipping when trying to attain that 100 watts.


  #35   Report Post  
TheBIessedDead
 
Posts: n/a
Default your Car Amplifier advice, please!

Another problem
is that 100watts is not the same between any two amps.


How is it not the same? It seems that is the point that people are trying to
make... That it IS the same.

I'm not asking to argue, I'm asking because I'm curious... I know little about
the subject really, but it seems to me that 100 watts is 100 watts.. no matter
what its source.

Nick


  #36   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default your Car Amplifier advice, please!

With all of the different options between amps such as x-overs,
bass-boost,
compression, it's hard to get any two amps to sound the same.


It's quite easy. You turn the tone controls and crossovers off. Richard
Clark does it all the time in his $10k testing.

Another problem
is that 100watts is not the same between any two amps.


Sure it is. The problem, however, is that some manufacturers lie.

Although I see what you
are saying, in the real world where you have a guy popping an amp into his

car
and tuning it by hear and more often then not to get max power out of the

amp
driving it into clipping or out of the performance range of the previous

amp,
its easier then not to hear audible differences between amps, in this case
especially in low end, since low end requires the most power to drive.


Well, no, that's not really what I meant. I've been talking about inherent
differences between amplifiers. Aside from tone controls and the like, and
reliability, etc, the only audible difference between any two amps is that
which arises from one being louder than the other (or not being driven into
clipping) due to differences in power output. There's nothing inherently
better *sounding* about, say, a Brax amp compared to a Kenwood amp.


  #37   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default your Car Amplifier advice, please!

Another problem
is that 100watts is not the same between any two amps.


How is it not the same? It seems that is the point that people are trying

to
make... That it IS the same.

I'm not asking to argue, I'm asking because I'm curious... I know little

about
the subject really, but it seems to me that 100 watts is 100 watts.. no

matter
what its source.


100 watts IS 100 watts. But distortion content will differ between
amplifiers. However, simply put, it's too low to be audible.


  #38   Report Post  
Brian
 
Posts: n/a
Default your Car Amplifier advice, please!

Holy ****, I forgot all about making this post, then I did a search
for Diamond Audio amps and it came up!

Thanks Tony (and everyone else) for your input. I'm going to check in
with Pete, as you suggested.

I tried a DLS Ultimate amp tonight (the A3 "dual mono") and, although
it lacked a little in the bass, the midrange and highs were great.
The best so far. (And those little pink elephants coming out of the
speakers were really neat too...) lol

But, seriously, the DLS amp was good ****. I heard this is similar in
design in certain respects to the Genesis amps that someone here had
recommended.

Someone else also sugested trying Audison VRx series, and Diamond D7
series. Yes, also Brax, Adcom (ebay), A/D/S, McIntosh and Xtant. I
only wish I had time to spend trying all these different amps out.
lol

If anyone has experience with any of these amps mentioned, please
comment. Perhaps some opinions could help narrow it down a bit.

btw, there is no doubt in my mind that different amps have their own
"sonic signatures" when playing actual music and driving an actual
speaker load.

Thanks again for all the great advice and suggestions.

-Brian
_________

"Tony Fernandes" wrote in message ...
Well, Brian, although I don't want to dismiss several other senior members'
tesimony about all amps sounding the same, I have to sympathize with you. I
too feel I can describe in detail the different qualites of different
amplifiers. I dunno...maybe this is physcoacoustics as Soundfreak suggests.
I still have a lot to learn, so who knows...maybe my opinion will change
over time..

So IN THE MEAN TIME I suggest you contact Pete Lufrano as FHLH suggested. I
belive he has experience with several of the amps you mentioned. I've heard
nothing but good things about Brax amplifiers, which he just happens to
sell. :-)

Having said that I want to know if you've auditioned Phoenix Gold amps. ZX
series, or the newer Titanium series. I've been hooked on them for years.
The happiest I have ever been in terms of SQ was when I had my Nakamichi
CD-700 powering the aforementioned PG amps wtih the same Dyn 360 set you
have. The only bad thing I can say is I was running the entire system
actively with the built-in PG xovers and it sounded a little artificial.
Some people I talked to seemed to believe that the Linkweitz Reilly (I know
I'm not spelling that right) xovers that PG uses are to blame for this. When
I ran the system using the Dyn passive xovers this didn't seem to be a
problem...although this presented another problem in that at higher volumes
it lost quite a bit of detail. I am currently in the process of getting the
360 set into my Maxima and I'll be running the 8-inch midwoofer actively and
using the Dyn passive xover for the tweets and mids. Kind of a balance
between the two problems I mentioned.

Well, more than you asked for. Hope it helps.

Tony



--



What's more likely? That an all-powerful mysterious god created the
universe and then decided not to give any proof of his existence? Or, that
he simply doesn't exist at all? And that we created him so that we wouldn't
have to feel so small and alone. -Eleanor Arroway, Contact

"Brian" wrote in message
om...
Please offer your advice on what amp to get. I've wasted a lot of
time/money and its time to seek some expert advice before going any
further!

I've managed to cram a Dynaudio System 360 into the front doors and
kick-panels of a 2003 Passat. (3-way system with 8" midbass, 3"
softdome midrange, and 1" softdome tweeter.) In the rear doors is a
Dynaudio System 240 (2-way system with 6-1/2" midbass and 1" softdome
tweeter.) All speakers are standard 4ohm.

I'd like to power these full range (no subs) using the Dynaudio
passive crossover boxes.

The amp characteristic I'm trying to achieve would be similar to an
Aragon 8008 (home audio amp). I've not been able to find a car audio
amp that sounds like it. Its a very neutral sound. Doesn't add
anything thats not already there, but just faithfully provides
everything thats in the recording.

Here's the amps I've tried so far:

PPI PCX-4125 (125W x4ch) -- I love the rich midrange and midbass,
but the highs are a little rough and there is absolutely no extended
highs ("air") at all.

Zapco C2K-6.0X (150W x2ch -- used to power all 4 speakers as a 2ohm
stereo load) -- This amp is incredibly clean-sounding. The extended
highs are immaculate. But it sounds thin in the midrange, as if
something is missing. The meat and potatoes just not there.

Butler Tube Driver Blue TDB-475 (75W x4ch) -- From what I've read, I
expected this amp to be the solution, but it sounds weak in the bass
and mid-bass and is just not neutral enough. It has an interesting
sound, but is somehow "fake", as if the sound is going through some
kind of sound processer to give it some sort of "effect". (I guess
thats what the tubes are adding to the sound?) The music just didn't
sound "real" to me.

I actually hooked up my Aragon 8008 home amp to run these Dynaudio
speakers, and it sounded perfect, so its not just a case of me
searching for something thats impossible. Is there a car amp that can
do what the Aragon can do? (If it was possible to convert the Aragon
to run on 12VDC, I would!)

Do you have any opinions on an amp that is very neutral, but also has
some "meat and potatoes" in the midrange and midbass? (that has the
rich PPI mid-bass/mid-range, but also with the Zapco's pristine
extended-highs.)

(4 channel is preferred, but not mandatory)

Any guidance would be greatly appreciated !! Thank you.

  #39   Report Post  
Brian
 
Posts: n/a
Default your Car Amplifier advice, please!

I haven't tried PG yet. What model (or series) can you suggest?
Whats their best stuff?




Having said that I want to know if you've auditioned Phoenix Gold amps. ZX
series, or the newer Titanium series. I've been hooked on them for years.
The happiest I have ever been in terms of SQ was when I had my Nakamichi
CD-700 powering the aforementioned PG amps wtih the same Dyn 360 set you
have. The only bad thing I can say is I was running the entire system
actively

  #40   Report Post  
Paul Vina
 
Posts: n/a
Default your Car Amplifier advice, please!

Why don't you go to their site and find out for yourself seeing as no matter
how much good advice we give you, you still come to your own goofball
conclusions anyway.


Paul Vina



"Brian" wrote in message
om...
I haven't tried PG yet. What model (or series) can you suggest?
Whats their best stuff?




Having said that I want to know if you've auditioned Phoenix Gold amps.

ZX
series, or the newer Titanium series. I've been hooked on them for

years.
The happiest I have ever been in terms of SQ was when I had my Nakamichi
CD-700 powering the aforementioned PG amps wtih the same Dyn 360 set you
have. The only bad thing I can say is I was running the entire system
actively



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