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  #1   Report Post  
Dylan X
 
Posts: n/a
Default Clean Power?

When referring to amplifiers the favorite catch-phrase of audiophiles
seems to be "clean power". As an ignorant novice I would like to know
what is meant by "clean power" and how do I achieve it. Also, I once
heard something about voltage matching an amplifier with a head unit
but if I set my amp to 4v (same as the preouts on my head unit) I can
barely hear my subs. Do I need to add a bigger amp to get the benefit
of voltage matching? Will this theoretically provide "cleaner power"?
  #2   Report Post  
Pug Fugley
 
Posts: n/a
Default Clean Power?

I think 'clean power' would be more of a product of a high quality amp, not
so much from an install. In other words, an amp that amplifies the signal
without a lot of distortion and extra crap. Zapco and Xtant are good
examples of ultra clean amplifiers.


"Dylan X" wrote in message
m...
When referring to amplifiers the favorite catch-phrase of audiophiles
seems to be "clean power". As an ignorant novice I would like to know
what is meant by "clean power" and how do I achieve it. Also, I once
heard something about voltage matching an amplifier with a head unit
but if I set my amp to 4v (same as the preouts on my head unit) I can
barely hear my subs. Do I need to add a bigger amp to get the benefit
of voltage matching? Will this theoretically provide "cleaner power"?



  #3   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default Clean Power?

When referring to amplifiers the favorite catch-phrase of audiophiles
seems to be "clean power". As an ignorant novice I would like to know
what is meant by "clean power" and how do I achieve it.


There's no such thing. Power is power. What's usually meant is low
distortion and noise. It's easily attainable simply by not driving your amp
into clipping. That means use sufficient amplification for your needs.

Also, I once
heard something about voltage matching an amplifier with a head unit
but if I set my amp to 4v (same as the preouts on my head unit) I can
barely hear my subs. Do I need to add a bigger amp to get the benefit
of voltage matching? Will this theoretically provide "cleaner power"?


No. NEVER match your amplifier's gain setting to the nominal rating on your
head unit. It doesn't work because a) the output voltage of the HU doesn't
always meet the nominal rating, especially when listening to quieter
passages; b) filtering out higher frequencies with the LPF reduces voltage.
Go strictly by ear when setting gains. There's a tutorial at
installer.com's tech pages.


  #4   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default Clean Power?

I think 'clean power' would be more of a product of a high quality amp,
not
so much from an install. In other words, an amp that amplifies the signal
without a lot of distortion and extra crap. Zapco and Xtant are good
examples of ultra clean amplifiers.


Doesn't matter who makes it. All amplifiers made these days have distortion
byproducts well below audible threshold. Especially compared to the
distortion that arises from driving your amp into clipping, which is
surprisingly common.


  #5   Report Post  
Pug Fugley
 
Posts: n/a
Default Clean Power?


"Mark Zarella" wrote in message
...
I think 'clean power' would be more of a product of a high quality amp,

not
so much from an install. In other words, an amp that amplifies the

signal
without a lot of distortion and extra crap. Zapco and Xtant are good
examples of ultra clean amplifiers.


Doesn't matter who makes it. All amplifiers made these days have

distortion
byproducts well below audible threshold. Especially compared to the
distortion that arises from driving your amp into clipping, which is
surprisingly common.


Eh maybe, but I refuse to believe that a Jensen or Dual amp is going to
sound as good and clean as a Zapco or Xtant.




  #6   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default Clean Power?

Doesn't matter who makes it. All amplifiers made these days have
distortion
byproducts well below audible threshold. Especially compared to the
distortion that arises from driving your amp into clipping, which is
surprisingly common.


Eh maybe, but I refuse to believe that a Jensen or Dual amp is going to
sound as good and clean as a Zapco or Xtant.


Why? Because the price tag says it does?


  #7   Report Post  
Pug Fugley
 
Posts: n/a
Default Clean Power?


"Mark Zarella" wrote in message
...
Doesn't matter who makes it. All amplifiers made these days have

distortion
byproducts well below audible threshold. Especially compared to the
distortion that arises from driving your amp into clipping, which is
surprisingly common.


Eh maybe, but I refuse to believe that a Jensen or Dual amp is going to
sound as good and clean as a Zapco or Xtant.


Why? Because the price tag says it does?


No, mainly becuase of the design and manufacturing. The power supply section
in a Zapco amp alone costs more than all the parts in some crap amp.


  #8   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default Clean Power?

Why? Because the price tag says it does?

No, mainly becuase of the design and manufacturing. The power supply

section
in a Zapco amp alone costs more than all the parts in some crap amp.


And that translates to what?


  #9   Report Post  
John Andreen
 
Posts: n/a
Default Clean Power?

Let me shed some light:

There is such a thing as "clean" and "dirty" power. A perfect case in point
would be to run your amplifier with a cheap battery charger as its B+
supply. You will hear a tremendous amount of "hum". In other words, it is
"dirty" power. At the other extreme, hook up a whole bunch ( maybe 10 ) of
automotive batteries in series. Tap the "GND" from the connection between
battery 5 and battery 6. Tap the amplifiers output rails (+/-) from the
the top and bottom posts. to do this, you must eliminate the SMPS section
and some other items. The Rectifying diodes and the bulk rail capacitors
to be exact. You now have "clean" Power for your 400W/ch RMS amplifier.

Many things can affect just how "clean" an amplfier is. Power supply
topology, filter capacitors, Inductors, ferrite beads, transformer type,
board layout, star grounding, trace capacitance, trace inductance, PCB
layers ( e.g. 1, 2, 4 ). Do all these things right, and you have a "clean"
power amplifier. Do any one or all these things wrong and you now have a
"dirty" power amplifier. There is even an extreme case where when the
output rails do not have enough bulk capacitance, the output feedback
circuit goes "open loop" for just a microsecond or so. In this time, the
output transistors modulate or "burst" at their peaks causing audible
distortion. Lots of cheap amplifiers will do this just before clipping at
full power.

Not all things are created equal. Power is one of them.

If you want a mechanical analog, how about a V-8 piston engine and a jet
turbine

John Andreen

Mark Zarella wrote:

When referring to amplifiers the favorite catch-phrase of audiophiles
seems to be "clean power". As an ignorant novice I would like to know
what is meant by "clean power" and how do I achieve it.


There's no such thing. Power is power. What's usually meant is low
distortion and noise. It's easily attainable simply by not driving your
amp
into clipping. That means use sufficient amplification for your needs.

Also, I once
heard something about voltage matching an amplifier with a head unit
but if I set my amp to 4v (same as the preouts on my head unit) I can
barely hear my subs. Do I need to add a bigger amp to get the benefit
of voltage matching? Will this theoretically provide "cleaner power"?


No. NEVER match your amplifier's gain setting to the nominal rating on
your
head unit. It doesn't work because a) the output voltage of the HU
doesn't always meet the nominal rating, especially when listening to
quieter passages; b) filtering out higher frequencies with the LPF reduces
voltage.
Go strictly by ear when setting gains. There's a tutorial at
installer.com's tech pages.


  #10   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default Clean Power?

There is such a thing as "clean" and "dirty" power. A perfect case in
point
would be to run your amplifier with a cheap battery charger as its B+
supply. You will hear a tremendous amount of "hum". In other words, it

is
"dirty" power. At the other extreme, hook up a whole bunch ( maybe 10 )

of
automotive batteries in series. Tap the "GND" from the connection between
battery 5 and battery 6. Tap the amplifiers output rails (+/-) from the
the top and bottom posts. to do this, you must eliminate the SMPS section
and some other items. The Rectifying diodes and the bulk rail capacitors
to be exact. You now have "clean" Power for your 400W/ch RMS amplifier.

Many things can affect just how "clean" an amplfier is. Power supply
topology, filter capacitors, Inductors, ferrite beads, transformer type,
board layout, star grounding, trace capacitance, trace inductance, PCB
layers ( e.g. 1, 2, 4 ). Do all these things right, and you have a

"clean"
power amplifier. Do any one or all these things wrong and you now have a
"dirty" power amplifier. There is even an extreme case where when the
output rails do not have enough bulk capacitance, the output feedback
circuit goes "open loop" for just a microsecond or so. In this time, the
output transistors modulate or "burst" at their peaks causing audible
distortion. Lots of cheap amplifiers will do this just before clipping at
full power.

Not all things are created equal. Power is one of them.

If you want a mechanical analog, how about a V-8 piston engine and a jet
turbine



That's all well and good, but the important thing to examine here is whether
the results are significant during normal operation. Hint: by significant,
I mean audible. While there are several ways to lower distortion (sometimes
at the expense of noise, or at the expense of reliability, or at the expense
of other forms of distortion, and so forth), there is of course a threshold
at which further reduction is not warranted, nor is it necessarily
recommended since there's almost always a tradeoff in some manner or
another.

So your engine analog holds true, but if your application is to just drive
down a road, then either one will perform as well as the other.




  #11   Report Post  
Pug Fugley
 
Posts: n/a
Default Clean Power?


"Mark Zarella" wrote in message
news
Why? Because the price tag says it does?


No, mainly becuase of the design and manufacturing. The power supply

section
in a Zapco amp alone costs more than all the parts in some crap amp.


And that translates to what?


Far superior amplification. Better sound quality, better reliability.

It seems that you feel that a $49 1000w amp will perform exactly like a
$1500 1000 amp...why? Please explain. What kind of amps do you have? I'll
bet you don't run Dual/Jensen/Pyramid amps do you?


  #12   Report Post  
Pug Fugley
 
Posts: n/a
Default Clean Power?


"Mark Zarella" wrote in message
...

So your engine analog holds true, but if your application is to just drive
down a road, then either one will perform as well as the other.


I guess that means that you run the cheapest amps you could find, correct?
By your logic a Rockwood sounds exactly like a McIntosh and it costs $2000
less, so do you run Rockwood amps? Dual? Pyramid?


  #13   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default Clean Power?

No, mainly becuase of the design and manufacturing. The power supply
section
in a Zapco amp alone costs more than all the parts in some crap amp.


And that translates to what?


Far superior amplification. Better sound quality, better reliability.


What aspects of the sound quality are improved? And how?

It seems that you feel that a $49 1000w amp will perform exactly like a
$1500 1000 amp...why? Please explain.


Well, if they both truly delivered 1000w, the difference may be reliability
or features (I've never heard of a 1000w amp for $49...I'll take 10 ).

What kind of amps do you have? I'll
bet you don't run Dual/Jensen/Pyramid amps do you?


I run a/d/s/ and ESX right now because I know of no other 8 channel amps
with crossovers as extensive as these and a reliatively inexpensive price
tag.


  #14   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default Clean Power?

So your engine analog holds true, but if your application is to just
drive
down a road, then either one will perform as well as the other.


I guess that means that you run the cheapest amps you could find, correct?


Assuming they delivered the power you're after and that they had the
features and reliability you're looking for, then yeah, price is generally
the next consideration.

By your logic a Rockwood sounds exactly like a McIntosh and it costs $2000
less, so do you run Rockwood amps? Dual? Pyramid?


I'd run a Pyramid before I'd run a McIntosh, as long as the Pyramid was
powerful enough and had the features I wanted. But, since neither
manufacturer makes one with the features I want, I personally wouldn't own
either.


  #15   Report Post  
Soundfreak03
 
Posts: n/a
Default Clean Power?


Far superior amplification. Better sound quality, better reliability.


Reliability maybe, sound quality? I bet if you didnt drive them into clipping
you would not hear the difference. In fact under many tests I have seen
performed the measurable differences were below the threshold of human hearing.


It seems that you feel that a $49 1000w amp will perform exactly like a
$1500 1000 amp...why? Please explain. What kind of amps do you have? I'll
bet you don't run Dual/Jensen/Pyramid amps do you?


Watts are irrelevent to the discussion of sound quality. An 50 watt amp will
sound the same as a 1000 watt amp if they are both kept withing thier operating
range, ie no audible clipping. There will probably be sound differences but
most of them inaudible to the human ear.
The reason for more expensive amps for me is reliability, customer service,
resale value, more realistic wattage claims, looks, and features. But I dont
buy the name, if you can get everything you want and need out of a less
expensive amp then why not?

Les


  #16   Report Post  
Pug Fugley
 
Posts: n/a
Default Clean Power?


"Mark Zarella" wrote in message
...


I run a/d/s/ and ESX right now because I know of no other 8 channel amps
with crossovers as extensive as these and a reliatively inexpensive price
tag.


Why don't you just get 4 2 channel Kenford amps? They would sound exactly
the same.


  #17   Report Post  
Pug Fugley
 
Posts: n/a
Default Clean Power?


"Soundfreak03" wrote in message
...

Far superior amplification. Better sound quality, better reliability.


Reliability maybe, sound quality? I bet if you didnt drive them into

clipping
you would not hear the difference. In fact under many tests I have seen
performed the measurable differences were below the threshold of human

hearing.


It seems that you feel that a $49 1000w amp will perform exactly like a
$1500 1000 amp...why? Please explain. What kind of amps do you have? I'll
bet you don't run Dual/Jensen/Pyramid amps do you?


Watts are irrelevent to the discussion of sound quality. An 50 watt amp

will
sound the same as a 1000 watt amp if they are both kept withing thier

operating
range, ie no audible clipping.


Yeah, but that's not the argument. The concensus here is that a Sparkomatic
or Rocktron amp sounds and performs every bit as good as any Zapco, Brax,
PPI, Xtant or anything else. I disagree. If it were even remotely true,
everyone would just go to Auto Zone or WalMart to buy $49 Sparkomatic amps
and there would be no car audio stores.


  #18   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default Clean Power?

I run a/d/s/ and ESX right now because I know of no other 8 channel amps
with crossovers as extensive as these and a reliatively inexpensive

price
tag.


Why don't you just get 4 2 channel Kenford amps? They would sound exactly
the same.


Because I want a single amplifier to triamp my front component set, with
more power going to the midbass drivers and each channel capable of
continuously adjustable bandpass filtering. Do you know of anyone else who
makes one of these? And if so, is it 40x8? And if so, can it be gotten for
under $250 on ebay?


  #19   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default Clean Power?

Yeah, but that's not the argument. The concensus here is that a
Sparkomatic
or Rocktron amp sounds and performs every bit as good as any Zapco, Brax,
PPI, Xtant or anything else. I disagree.


Why do you disagree? I haven't been able to pin down your reasoning for
this aside from price considerations. If it sounds better, then presumably
you're implying that there's a significant amount of distortion or noise in
the amplifiers that you don't find favorable. While it may be true that
some amps are more prone to ground loops than others, I've yet to encounter
an amplifier on the market today where the noise hasn't been able to be
overcome or that introduces a significant amount of distortion.

If it were even remotely true,
everyone would just go to Auto Zone or WalMart to buy $49 Sparkomatic amps
and there would be no car audio stores.


It is true, and the reason that people don't do that is because other
factors are at play. Namely, reliability, warranty, customer support,
looks, features, and some people like to have a name for "irrational"
reasons (myself included - at one point in an old car I spent extra on an
ESX amp to run my component set just so I could have all ESX amps - I
thought it looked nicer that way).


  #20   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default Clean Power?

I should add, by the way, that there are additional reasons for buying
better built amplifiers. But none that I can think of that directly relate
to "clean" vs. "dirty" power. For instance, when you're driving low
impedance loads, some amps crap out sooner than others. When you're driving
an amp to its limits, some overheat and shut down. "Better" amps often
don't. But I think you'd be quite surprised to find that there are some
pricier amplifiers that are less stable under these circumstances than
others. For example, I've had a tougher time with Profile amps overheating
than Jensens, yet the general concensus among car audio groups is that
Profile amps are supposedly "mid grade" whereas Jensens are "junk". I'd
actually put some of the newer Jensen amps up against Kenwood, Profile,
Sony, Audiobahn, Alpine, etc in terms of reliability.




  #21   Report Post  
Soundfreak03
 
Posts: n/a
Default Clean Power?



Yeah, but that's not the argument. The concensus here is that a Sparkomatic
or Rocktron amp sounds and performs every bit as good as any Zapco, Brax,
PPI, Xtant or anything else. I disagree.


But you base your disagreement on what? The name on the freakin' front of the
amp?

If it were even remotely true,
everyone would just go to Auto Zone or WalMart to buy $49 Sparkomatic amps
and there would be no car audio stores.


Wrong again. In my last post, that you snipped the rest of, I gave you several
reasons as to why people buy the more expensive amps. I will list them again
for you because they seem to have gone over your head.
Reliability, customer service, resale value, more realistic claims, looks, and
features.
Now add to that what Mark has said about performing under lower loads, and
running balls out (ok he didnt put it that way) and I think you have definant
reason OTHER than SQ that affect why people buy amps.
BTW here is a quote from my last post that you snipped.
"Reliability maybe, sound quality? I bet if you didnt drive them into clipping
you would not hear the difference. In fact under many tests I have seen
performed the measurable differences were below the threshold of human
hearing."

Now argue against those reasons.

Les
  #22   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default Clean Power?

"Reliability maybe, sound quality? I bet if you didnt drive them into
clipping
you would not hear the difference. In fact under many tests I have seen
performed the measurable differences were below the threshold of human
hearing."


A good example can be shown in carsound.com's reviews section. If you look
at one of the amps that Pug cited as "bad" (Jensen) and compare it to one
that he cited as "good" (Zapco), you'll see in the charts that the THD
measurement on the zapco was greater.

http://www.carsound.com/reviews/amps/ag1000chts.html

http://www.carsound.com/reviews/amps/ats50rxchts.html

But, as you've pointed out already, nobody's going to hear the difference
between 0.05% and 0.2% THD anyway.


  #23   Report Post  
Soundfreak03
 
Posts: n/a
Default Clean Power?

A good example can be shown in carsound.com's reviews section. If you look
at one of the amps that Pug cited as "bad" (Jensen) and compare it to one
that he cited as "good" (Zapco), you'll see in the charts that the THD
measurement on the zapco was greater.

http://www.carsound.com/reviews/amps/ag1000chts.html

http://www.carsound.com/reviews/amps/ats50rxchts.html

But, as you've pointed out already, nobody's going to hear the difference
between 0.05% and 0.2% THD anyway.



Good example. And you can find similar charts from just about every
manufacture. From Brax and Zapco to Jensen and Pyle.
But some people just want to believe that they can hear the sound difference
when there is not one. It just kinda bursts thier bubbles.

Les

  #24   Report Post  
Captain Howdy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Clean Power?

What I have found with so called cheap amps such as Profile, Jensen and
Pyramid is that you have to crank the hell out of them to get deep bass. Where
more costly amps such as Orion, Kicker, PPI and MTX seem to produce deeper
bass at lower volume levels. I also found that these cheaper amps seem to run
a lot hotter. The only reason for this that I can think of is an inadequate
power supply.


In article , "Mark Zarella"
wrote:
I should add, by the way, that there are additional reasons for buying
better built amplifiers. But none that I can think of that directly relate
to "clean" vs. "dirty" power. For instance, when you're driving low
impedance loads, some amps crap out sooner than others. When you're driving
an amp to its limits, some overheat and shut down. "Better" amps often
don't. But I think you'd be quite surprised to find that there are some
pricier amplifiers that are less stable under these circumstances than
others. For example, I've had a tougher time with Profile amps overheating
than Jensens, yet the general concensus among car audio groups is that
Profile amps are supposedly "mid grade" whereas Jensens are "junk". I'd
actually put some of the newer Jensen amps up against Kenwood, Profile,
Sony, Audiobahn, Alpine, etc in terms of reliability.


  #25   Report Post  
Pug Fugley
 
Posts: n/a
Default Clean Power?


"Soundfreak03" wrote in message
...


Yeah, but that's not the argument. The concensus here is that a

Sparkomatic
or Rocktron amp sounds and performs every bit as good as any Zapco, Brax,
PPI, Xtant or anything else. I disagree.


But you base your disagreement on what? The name on the freakin' front of

the
amp?



Oh my God. I can't believe you people. You actually hand out advice to folks
on car audio??

I wouldn't take advice from you idiots on how to wipe my ass. You guys are
just plain old ****ing stupid, that's all. Why else would one think that a
Sparkomatic is the exact same thing as a Brax/Zapco/Xtant???

Doesn't anyone else see the flaw here???

Does everyone here agree?? Rockwood amps are the same as JL Audio???

Kenford and Xtant are equal in sound and build quality????

Dual and Rockford are one and the same????

WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE????




  #26   Report Post  
Pug Fugley
 
Posts: n/a
Default Clean Power?


"Mark Zarella" wrote in message
...
I run a/d/s/ and ESX right now because I know of no other 8 channel

amps
with crossovers as extensive as these and a reliatively inexpensive

price
tag.


Why don't you just get 4 2 channel Kenford amps? They would sound

exactly
the same.


Because I want a single amplifier to triamp my front component set, with
more power going to the midbass drivers and each channel capable of
continuously adjustable bandpass filtering. Do you know of anyone else

who
makes one of these? And if so, is it 40x8? And if so, can it be gotten

for
under $250 on ebay?


It doesn't matter. According to YOU, all amps are the same.


  #27   Report Post  
Pug Fugley
 
Posts: n/a
Default Clean Power?


"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...
What I have found with so called cheap amps such as Profile, Jensen and
Pyramid is that you have to crank the hell out of them to get deep bass.

Where
more costly amps such as Orion, Kicker, PPI and MTX seem to produce deeper
bass at lower volume levels. I also found that these cheaper amps seem to

run
a lot hotter. The only reason for this that I can think of is an

inadequate
power supply.


Exactly. That's what I'm saying, but Zarella says that all amps are created
equal with the same power supplies. I just don't know what to say, I'm
actually at a loss for words here. I can't believe that someone could be
that stupid and still be able to operate a computer and log on to the
usenet. I'm just baffled.





  #28   Report Post  
TheBIessedDead
 
Posts: n/a
Default Clean Power?

What I have found with so called cheap amps such as Profile, Jensen and
Pyramid is that you have to crank the hell out of them to get deep bass.

Where
more costly amps such as Orion, Kicker, PPI and MTX seem to produce deeper
bass at lower volume levels. I also found that these cheaper amps seem to

run
a lot hotter. The only reason for this that I can think of is an

inadequate
power supply.


Exactly. That's what I'm saying, but Zarella says that all amps are created
equal with the same power supplies. I just don't know what to say, I'm
actually at a loss for words here. I can't believe that someone could be
that stupid and still be able to operate a computer and log on to the
usenet. I'm just baffled.


Its pretty easy to figure out that a Zapco amp that claims 500 watts, and will
actually put out 500 watts, will be able to drive a subwoofer easier than a
Pyramid amp that "claims" 500 watts but in reality doesn't touch that. I don't
think anyone is denying that fact.

The point that the others was making I think is that all things being equal,
500 true watts from a Zapco will sound no better to the human ear than 500 true
watts from a Pyramid.

I'm not sure why that is such a hard concept to understand.

I bet the commision based sales people at your local car audio store get quite
excited when you walk into their store.

Nick
  #29   Report Post  
Pug Fugley
 
Posts: n/a
Default Clean Power?


"TheBIessedDead" wrote in message
...


The point that the others was making I think is that all things being

equal,
500 true watts from a Zapco will sound no better to the human ear than 500

true
watts from a Pyramid.


Nope. I've never had any trouble hearing differences in amps. In fact, to my
surprise, I just replaced two Zapco amps the other day with a single multi
channel Xtant and the Xtant actually had a much cleaner high end with a bit
more air. I could hear drumsticks hitting the cymbals just a tad clearer,
and I could hear fingertips on the guitar strings a little better.

Besides, just the difference in power supplies alone would make the
Zapco/Xtant/JL/PPI amp sound tighter and cleaner. Anyone who has any sort of
electronics training will agree.



I'm not sure why that is such a hard concept to understand.


Maybe that's because lots of people around here seem to be idiots.




I bet the commision based sales people at your local car audio store get

quite
excited when you walk into their store.


Probably not, since my store drove them all out of business.


  #30   Report Post  
Soundfreak03
 
Posts: n/a
Default Clean Power?

Nope. I've never had any trouble hearing differences in amps. In fact, to my
surprise, I just replaced two Zapco amps the other day with a single multi
channel Xtant and the Xtant actually had a much cleaner high end with a bit
more air. I could hear drumsticks hitting the cymbals just a tad clearer,
and I could hear fingertips on the guitar strings a little better.


One word Pug, Psychoacoustics.


Besides, just the difference in power supplies alone would make the
Zapco/Xtant/JL/PPI amp sound tighter and cleaner. Anyone who has any sort of
electronics training will agree.



Wrong. What electronics degree do you have? Or training of any sort?
LOOK at the independent tests. The differences, if any, are well below the
threshold of hearing. You obviously know NOTHING about amplifier design.




I'm not sure why that is such a hard concept to understand.


Maybe that's because lots of people around here seem to be idiots.




I bet the commision based sales people at your local car audio store get

quite
excited when you walk into their store.


Probably not, since my store drove them all out of business.



What store is that? Where are you at? You guys got a website? Come on Pug time
to put it on the table.

Les







  #31   Report Post  
Soundfreak03
 
Posts: n/a
Default Clean Power?

Oh my God. I can't believe you people. You actually hand out advice to folks
on car audio??


Yes. And we are making you look like an idiot again. Do I need to remind you of
the last time we got into it? Your in over your head AGAIN. Your electronics
knowledge is lacking severely.

hy else would one think that a
Sparkomatic is the exact same thing as a Brax/Zapco/Xtant???


Ok for clarification since you are an idiot with no reading skills.
THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING!!!!!!
here let me repeat it
THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING!!!!!!!
Where did mark or I say that?

Now when operating withing thier limits they will sound the same to the ear.
That is what we are talking about. Noone is talking reliability, watts, or
power supplies. Those are reasons that I said you should buy the more expensive
amps.

Doesn't anyone else see the flaw here???


The flaw is you cant read. See above.

Does everyone here agree?? Rockwood amps are the same as JL Audio???


No. Noone said that. When did anyone say that. Your the one making all of the
comparisons.

Kenford and Xtant are equal in sound and build quality????


Nope.

ual and Rockford are one and the same????


No again.

WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE????



What is wrong with your reading comprehension? All of Marks and my claims can
be backed up with factual data. Where is your data dumbass?

Les
  #32   Report Post  
Pug Fugley
 
Posts: n/a
Default Clean Power?

I think you need serious mental help. My God.





"Soundfreak03" wrote in message
...
Oh my God. I can't believe you people. You actually hand out advice to

folks
on car audio??


Yes. And we are making you look like an idiot again. Do I need to remind

you of
the last time we got into it? Your in over your head AGAIN. Your

electronics
knowledge is lacking severely.

hy else would one think that a
Sparkomatic is the exact same thing as a Brax/Zapco/Xtant???


Ok for clarification since you are an idiot with no reading skills.
THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING!!!!!!
here let me repeat it
THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING!!!!!!!
Where did mark or I say that?

Now when operating withing thier limits they will sound the same to the

ear.
That is what we are talking about. Noone is talking reliability, watts, or
power supplies. Those are reasons that I said you should buy the more

expensive
amps.

Doesn't anyone else see the flaw here???


The flaw is you cant read. See above.

Does everyone here agree?? Rockwood amps are the same as JL Audio???


No. Noone said that. When did anyone say that. Your the one making all of

the
comparisons.

Kenford and Xtant are equal in sound and build quality????


Nope.

ual and Rockford are one and the same????


No again.

WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE????



What is wrong with your reading comprehension? All of Marks and my claims

can
be backed up with factual data. Where is your data dumbass?

Les



  #33   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default Clean Power?

Because I want a single amplifier to triamp my front component set, with
more power going to the midbass drivers and each channel capable of
continuously adjustable bandpass filtering. Do you know of anyone else

who
makes one of these? And if so, is it 40x8? And if so, can it be gotten

for
under $250 on ebay?


It doesn't matter. According to YOU, all amps are the same.


It DOES matter because that's a feature set I want. I never said that all
amps have the same features. Please show me where I did. Now you're just
being difficult.


  #34   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default Clean Power?

What I have found with so called cheap amps such as Profile, Jensen and
Pyramid is that you have to crank the hell out of them to get deep bass.

Where
more costly amps such as Orion, Kicker, PPI and MTX seem to produce deeper
bass at lower volume levels. I also found that these cheaper amps seem to

run
a lot hotter. The only reason for this that I can think of is an

inadequate
power supply.


No, that's not a problem. Every "cheap" amp I've ever tested has a flat
frequency response down to 20 Hz (lower in fact). This is well documented
actually. What you're undoubtedly experiencing is a lack of power. Use a
bigger "cheap" amp and you won't run into this.


  #35   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default Clean Power?

Exactly. That's what I'm saying, but Zarella says that all amps are
created
equal with the same power supplies. I just don't know what to say, I'm
actually at a loss for words here. I can't believe that someone could be
that stupid and still be able to operate a computer and log on to the
usenet. I'm just baffled.


Hey Pug, how many amplifiers have you designed and built? How many have you
even bench tested?? You've yet to provide any reasons to support your
assertions. Because you have no evidence (because you have no experience
aside from monkeying around in an installation bay), you've decided to
resort to ad hominem attacks. The last defense of an ignorant fool. Have a
nice day.




  #36   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default Clean Power?

Nope. I've never had any trouble hearing differences in amps. In fact, to
my
surprise, I just replaced two Zapco amps the other day with a single multi
channel Xtant and the Xtant actually had a much cleaner high end with a

bit
more air. I could hear drumsticks hitting the cymbals just a tad clearer,
and I could hear fingertips on the guitar strings a little better.


Yeah, and I'm sure you performed all the necessary controls. Could it be
perhaps that the new amps were more powerful? Did you conduct a proper
blind test?

Besides, just the difference in power supplies alone would make the
Zapco/Xtant/JL/PPI amp sound tighter and cleaner. Anyone who has any sort

of
electronics training will agree.


How?? You've yet to tell me how, even though I've asked you repeatedly.
Why do you keep avoiding the issue? Please, be as technical as you'd like.
My degree in EE and my experience designing and building amplifiers will
allow me to keep up with you.


  #37   Report Post  
Scott Gardner
 
Posts: n/a
Default Clean Power?

On Sun, 4 Jan 2004 10:40:48 -0500, "Mark Zarella"
wrote:

What I have found with so called cheap amps such as Profile, Jensen and
Pyramid is that you have to crank the hell out of them to get deep bass.

Where
more costly amps such as Orion, Kicker, PPI and MTX seem to produce deeper
bass at lower volume levels. I also found that these cheaper amps seem to

run
a lot hotter. The only reason for this that I can think of is an

inadequate
power supply.


No, that's not a problem. Every "cheap" amp I've ever tested has a flat
frequency response down to 20 Hz (lower in fact). This is well documented
actually. What you're undoubtedly experiencing is a lack of power. Use a
bigger "cheap" amp and you won't run into this.


Yep - it's amazing how many sonic "differences" between amplifiers
disappear when they're level-matched before the comparison. Anyone
that sells amplifiers using an in-store display will tell you that a
customer will always favor the slightly louder setup, even if it's
only a dB or two.

Scott Gardner
  #38   Report Post  
John Andreen
 
Posts: n/a
Default Clean Power?

Mr Zarella

You are correct, there is always a trade-off between a "clean" amplifier and
a "dirty" amplifier. But the "dirty" amplifier will always loose in terms
of reliability, distortion, sound quality etc. All at the expense of good
Engineering practices and a handful of parts.

On a side note, what would you rather be driving, a Yugo or a Mercedes? Ok,
not the same, but how about a Yugo or a Ford Focus? But if your life
depended on its proper operation all the time, which would you choose?

Here is another case in point. Old school PPI amplifiers. Some of these
amplifiers are over 15 years old and they are still operating and making
great sound. In fact, these units are still highly sought after. Can you
say the same for an equally aged Pioneer or Sony? I think you are perhaps
using a shifting baseline as to what is "clean" today.

Could you also be confusing distortion with noise? They are not the same.
You should do some investigation on these subjects. What you say is a
measurement of distortion is actually called "THD +N" a.k.a. Total Harmonic
Distortion + Noise. Then to make matters worse, some audio companies use
filters (read A-weighted) to make there units appear to have low THD+N. To
add even more confusion into the mix, this "THD+N" is almost always
computationally measured using FFT methods. There are more than a dozen
FFT windows ( read measuring envelope ) that can be used to make the
measurement. Each will give a return a different value for "THD+N". There
is one more thing about measuring "THD+N". One must also specify the power
of the signal being measured. One can measure at 1W, 5W, Full rated power,
etc. "THD+N" is not constant at all power levels. It is usually higher at
very low power levels and very high power levels. At very low power
levels, the major component comes from "noise". At very high power levels,
the major component comes from "THD". Really "clean" amplifiers have "TH
+N" values nearly equal at all power levels under clipping.

I can take even the "dirtiest" amplifier and measure extremely low values of
distortion. On the order of 1/1000 of a %. That is, if I can choose my
own method and power level of distortion measurement.

There is also harmonic distortion caused by the sum and difference of two
signals. Let's say a 40 kHz square wave from a power supply and a 1 kHz
sine wave. There will be strong harmonic distortion at 39 kHz and 41 kHz.
There are also artifacts called sub-harmonics of these two signals that
will be present. These are the artifacts that can appear down in the audio
spectrum. I would also like to point out that music isn't just 1 kHz, but
a plethora of frequencies.

I have told this group many times not to be concerned with "THD+N" as a
figure of merit when buying an amplifier. The human ear doesn't mind even
1-3% THD. It is a "Marketing Tool" designed to sway the masses. Go listen
to a high quality pure tube amplifier and a high quality transistorized
amplifier of the same output power specifications. Do this test blindly.
I am absolutely certain that you will always pick the tube amplifier over
the transistorized one as having the better sound. But, that tube
amplifier will have distortion figures SEVERAL HUNDRED TIMES WORSE than the
transistorized amplifier. Instead, try to buy an amplifier that has Low
"TIM" and low S/N. TIM stands for Transient Intermodulation Distortion.
Good audio distortion analyzers can find this kind of distortion using the
"IMD" settings.

Now, onto the subject of noise. Noise is ever present in the audio world.
It comes from the amplifiers SMPS. It comes from the Automobiles charging
system. It comes from solar wind. It comes from the power transmission
lines. In short, it comes from just about everywhere. In my last post, I
stated several things that make for a "clean" amplifier. Those things are
the items or methodologies used to eliminate or diminish the ingress of
noise into an amplifier. I forgot one them. Decoupling capacitors. Once
again, do not do any or all of those items, and more effective noise will
make it into the audio path. Do all of them right and you will diminish
the ingress of noise into the audio path and have a "clean" amplifier.

I have measured and tested amplifiers from many of the "top" car audio
companies. Some had signal to noise ratios of -50dB, some had signal to
noise ratios greater than -100dB. In other words, the best amplifiers S/N
was 64 times better than the worst. The reason, one amplifier was more
"clean" than anothers. Once again, you can fudge these numbers too. S/N
is different depending upon the position of the gain pot. At max gain, S/N
to noise will be different than min gain. The difference, a handful of
parts and good Engineering practices. QED

John Andreen


Mark Zarella wrote:

There is such a thing as "clean" and "dirty" power. A perfect case in

point
would be to run your amplifier with a cheap battery charger as its B+
supply. You will hear a tremendous amount of "hum". In other words, it

is
"dirty" power. At the other extreme, hook up a whole bunch ( maybe 10 )

of
automotive batteries in series. Tap the "GND" from the connection
between
battery 5 and battery 6. Tap the amplifiers output rails (+/-) from the
the top and bottom posts. to do this, you must eliminate the SMPS
section
and some other items. The Rectifying diodes and the bulk rail capacitors
to be exact. You now have "clean" Power for your 400W/ch RMS amplifier.

Many things can affect just how "clean" an amplfier is. Power supply
topology, filter capacitors, Inductors, ferrite beads, transformer type,
board layout, star grounding, trace capacitance, trace inductance, PCB
layers ( e.g. 1, 2, 4 ). Do all these things right, and you have a

"clean"
power amplifier. Do any one or all these things wrong and you now have a
"dirty" power amplifier. There is even an extreme case where when the
output rails do not have enough bulk capacitance, the output feedback
circuit goes "open loop" for just a microsecond or so. In this time, the
output transistors modulate or "burst" at their peaks causing audible
distortion. Lots of cheap amplifiers will do this just before clipping
at full power.

Not all things are created equal. Power is one of them.

If you want a mechanical analog, how about a V-8 piston engine and a jet
turbine



That's all well and good, but the important thing to examine here is
whether
the results are significant during normal operation. Hint: by
significant,
I mean audible. While there are several ways to lower distortion
(sometimes at the expense of noise, or at the expense of reliability, or
at the expense of other forms of distortion, and so forth), there is of
course a threshold at which further reduction is not warranted, nor is it
necessarily recommended since there's almost always a tradeoff in some
manner or another.

So your engine analog holds true, but if your application is to just drive
down a road, then either one will perform as well as the other.


  #39   Report Post  
John Andreen
 
Posts: n/a
Default Clean Power?

Mark,

Why the A/D/S amplifiers? It is because they are well made according to
Engineering practices and very high quality parts. I know, some of my
"work" is in that amplifier.

BTW: There are two caveats on the A/D/S P850. Channel separation is a
little lacking. But it is still quite good. Also, constant bass if used
will diminish your soundstage.

John Andreen

Mark Zarella wrote:

No, mainly becuase of the design and manufacturing. The power supply
section
in a Zapco amp alone costs more than all the parts in some crap amp.

And that translates to what?


Far superior amplification. Better sound quality, better reliability.


What aspects of the sound quality are improved? And how?

It seems that you feel that a $49 1000w amp will perform exactly like a
$1500 1000 amp...why? Please explain.


Well, if they both truly delivered 1000w, the difference may be
reliability
or features (I've never heard of a 1000w amp for $49...I'll take 10
).

What kind of amps do you have? I'll
bet you don't run Dual/Jensen/Pyramid amps do you?


I run a/d/s/ and ESX right now because I know of no other 8 channel amps
with crossovers as extensive as these and a reliatively inexpensive price
tag.


  #40   Report Post  
Paul Vina
 
Posts: n/a
Default Clean Power?

I bet the commision based sales people at your local car audio store get
quite
excited when you walk into their store.

Nick



I know I did. Sounds like the kind of guy that would come in and evertime I
showed him something would ask "Is this competition?"! LOL! GOD, I hated
those guys. Yo man, I want some Rocksford (yes, they said it with the "s"
in there) Fosgate competition subs that bump! That's one of the things that
makes me glad I got out of retail.


Paul Vina


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