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  #1   Report Post  
Jeff
 
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Default Facing subs towards driver or away

I been having a debate with some mates lately on which is better, to have
you subs facing the driver or out the back of the car?
any opinions

Jeff


  #2   Report Post  
 
Posts: n/a
Default Facing subs towards driver or away

On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 20:18:05 +1100, "Jeff"
wrote:

I been having a debate with some mates lately on which is better, to have
you subs facing the driver or out the back of the car?
any opinions

Jeff



each car is different...kinda...

try it in your car and see what sounds best.

IN THEORY, id say facing away will sound better. If you do the math,
a bass wave length is like around 15 feet long. So pointing towards
the trunk allows for the chance of the sound bounceing off of the
trunk and giving it a longer distance before it hits your ear...thus
louder ... but, sometimes pointing them straight up sounds best.
THUS, i say it depends on the vechile

then again ... i am baseing my knowledge on junk i learnt thru out
engineering school... real world stuff is much different then
science!
  #3   Report Post  
sanitarium
 
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Default Facing subs towards driver or away

IMHO it depends on the car and its coustics... gotta experiment to find
what works and what doesn't.
Gonna try pointing my powerbase 15 to the rear of my hatchback and
perforating the hatch cover lid.

Garrett

Jeff wrote:

I been having a debate with some mates lately on which is better, to have
you subs facing the driver or out the back of the car?
any opinions

Jeff





  #4   Report Post  
Paul Vina
 
Posts: n/a
Default Facing subs towards driver or away

You shouldn't need to perforate the hatch cover. It's not thick enough to
affect the bass.


Paul Vina


"sanitarium" wrote in message
...
IMHO it depends on the car and its coustics... gotta experiment to find
what works and what doesn't.
Gonna try pointing my powerbase 15 to the rear of my hatchback and
perforating the hatch cover lid.

Garrett

Jeff wrote:

I been having a debate with some mates lately on which is better, to have
you subs facing the driver or out the back of the car?
any opinions

Jeff







  #6   Report Post  
cyrus
 
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Default Facing subs towards driver or away

In article ,
"Jeff" wrote:

I been having a debate with some mates lately on which is better, to have
you subs facing the driver or out the back of the car?
any opinions

Jeff



the way that sounds the best in your car.

--
cyrus

*coughcasaucedoprodigynetcough*


  #7   Report Post  
Eddie Runner
 
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Default Facing subs towards driver or away

try them both ways and choose the one that sounds best to you.
Most folks like the woofer box facing the rear of the car.

Eddie Runner
http://www.installer.com/tech/aiming.html

Jeff wrote:

I been having a debate with some mates lately on which is better, to have
you subs facing the driver or out the back of the car?
any opinions

Jeff


  #10   Report Post  
thelizman
 
Posts: n/a
Default Facing subs towards driver or away

Luke Hague wrote:
I guess you didn't read Nousaine's post, which was what I was replying too,
which is in this thread.


Nousaine? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

--
Lizard
Nousaine in the Membrane




  #11   Report Post  
Luke Hague
 
Posts: n/a
Default Facing subs towards driver or away

I guess you didn't read Nousaine's post, which was what I was replying too,
which is in this thread.

"sancho" tR-003.at.ev1.dot.net wrote in message
...

did you not understand what you read or were you trying to reply to a
different post?


"Luke Hague" wrote in message
...
Then how come it still makes a difference in a sealed box? And I do

mean
sealed I tested my box under a vaccuum before putting the speakers in

and
I
seriously doubt air gets past the subs with what I used to seal it.

"Nousaine" wrote in message
...
"Jeff"


I been having a debate with some mates lately on which is better, to

have
you subs facing the driver or out the back of the car?
any opinions

Jeff

Here's the deal on this. At subwoofer frequencies it makes no

difference
which
way the face of the woofer points. IOW, you can't aim a subwoofer.

On the other hand, it's often useful to face the driver/port away from

the
listeners ears. This is because distortion products (higher

harmonics),
port
noise, suspension noise out-of-band artifacts and mid-range

reflections
off the
back wall of the enclosure radiated through the cone can help cause
localization. So facing the driver/port away from the listener so the

cabinet
helps acoustically shadow these sounds can be useful.

Because acoustic sounds at subwoofer frequencies (approximately 100

Hz)
are
omnidirectional the SPL/Frequency response will be uneffected either

way.






  #12   Report Post  
Eddie Runner
 
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Default Facing subs towards driver or away

Nousaine dont know ****.

He claims turnng your box to aim to the back
in a car makes no difference.... he needs to get out more
into the real world... Every punk kid with a woofer box knows
it does!

Luke Hague wrote:

I guess you didn't read Nousaine's post, which was what I was replying too,
which is in this thread.



  #13   Report Post  
narcolept
 
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Default Facing subs towards driver or away


"thelizman" thelizman1221.yahoo@com wrote in message
...
Luke Hague wrote:
I guess you didn't read Nousaine's post, which was what I was replying

too,
which is in this thread.


Nousaine? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

--
Lizard
Nousaine in the Membrane




ahh yes.. good to see the lizman back...


narcolept
----
Nousaine in the Brain!


  #14   Report Post  
narcolept
 
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Default Facing subs towards driver or away


"Eddie Runner" wrote in message
...
Nousaine dont know ****.

He claims turnng your box to aim to the back
in a car makes no difference.... he needs to get out more
into the real world... Every punk kid with a woofer box knows
it does!

Luke Hague wrote:

I guess you didn't read Nousaine's post, which was what I was replying

too,
which is in this thread.




right-o, TWFER. I mean, you gotta listen to punk kids over basic physics
when thinking about aiming a box any day... Ask 99% of the current R.A.C
roster, they'll tell you that.


narcolept
-----
yearning for the good ol days. we gotta get some of these ****ers up and
out, on the double. shouldn't be too hard with me, snatch, and da lizman
back though....


  #15   Report Post  
Nousaine
 
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Default Facing subs towards driver or away

Eddie Runner wrote:

Nousaine dont know ****.

He claims turnng your box to aim to the back
in a car makes no difference.... he needs to get out more
into the real world... Every punk kid with a woofer box knows
it does!


Eddie starts in again. I've done the experiment several times. At subwoofer
frequencies it just doesn't matter. How could it? At 20 hz the wavelength is 50
feet long so the driver displacement just pressurizes the cabin no matter where
it's placed or what direction.

Eddies website claims that there's a 60 Hz standing wave error when a woofer is
faced one way or the other but he doesn't bother to explain how his
demonstration manages to show a standing wave when the sound waves are
traveling in the same direction. Or how that condition happens with a
wavelength of 17 feet.

I replicated his "diagram" outside with a ground plane and a single back wall.
The only thing that happens by placing a 12-inch woofer/1 ft3 box against the
wall facing out and compared to placing the box 3-feet from the wall facing
toward it is roughly 9 dB more output above 400 Hz and a 280 Hz cancellation
notch with the box facing the wall.

So if your woofer is unfiltered you'll get significantly more lower and medium
midrange output and perhaps increased audibility of port grunts and driver
noises when the face of the driver is facing the listener. That's it. Try it
yourself.


  #17   Report Post  
Luke Hague
 
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Default Facing subs towards driver or away

That's what my post was getting at, he was saying a vented box would make a
difference, I was simply asking him, if that's true, then how come my sealed
one does as well?

"Eddie Runner" wrote in message
...
Nousaine dont know ****.

He claims turnng your box to aim to the back
in a car makes no difference.... he needs to get out more
into the real world... Every punk kid with a woofer box knows
it does!

Luke Hague wrote:

I guess you didn't read Nousaine's post, which was what I was replying

too,
which is in this thread.





  #18   Report Post  
Luke Hague
 
Posts: n/a
Default Facing subs towards driver or away

I'll list my setup and tell you what happens, perhaps you can explain why
this is so.
I have 2 Infinity Reference 10"s in a sealed box, powered by an RF 500s.
They were facing the front of my car ('96 Ford Escort LX hatchback). Now I
barely got any "thump", nothing rattled and it sounded nothing more than
glorfied mid-range. You could barely feel anything. So I decided to turn
them around and I ended up with the good mid-range, but also the low-range I
wanted, I could feel it in the mid of my back, back of my head, and my feet,
also bass distorted my vision in the rear view mirror which it did not
before. Now I have all kinds of bass inside the car, until the hatch is
opened, then it all just goes away. Can you explain this to me?

"Nousaine" wrote in message
...
"Luke Hague" wrote:

I guess you didn't read Nousaine's post, which was what I was replying

too,
which is in this thread.


While I'm at it let me dispell another Urban Legend. Do you get more bass

with
the hatch open? Only outside the car.

Inside you get significantly less. Why? You lose the cabin gain transfer
function effect whre the driver displacement pressurizes the interior at

low
frequencies delivering 12 dB/octave reinforcement as frequency falls below

the
lowest mode which occurs at 60 Hz in a small car.

How about the trunk? Sometimes not an issue because the trunk itself is a

large
enough 'enclosure' to work with any woofer if it's an IB. If it's an IB,

sealed
or ported enclosure and the wall separating the cabin and the trunk isn't
perfectly sealed you'll often lose transfer function gain as well.




  #19   Report Post  
s7oned
 
Posts: n/a
Default Facing subs towards driver or away

i have heard putting subs at the back facing forward have mor
cancellation issues due to wave bouncing off the back end an
cancelling the front wave...i read it in a website... and according t
it.. subs facing back and as close to the trunklid or hatch USUALL
yeild best results..HOWEVER..i recommend you try them out and see what
better...shouldnt take too much effort
-
s7one
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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  #20   Report Post  
shibby
 
Posts: n/a
Default Facing subs towards driver or away

like everyone else said, just try it out and see what you like better
thats what i did. i was always told to have the subs facing backwards
but i wanted to see what it sounded like facing forwards, and ther
just wasnt much bass at all. so i leave it facing backwards now.

but then again, in my friends mustang he has his box sitting in hi
back seat (wont fit in the trunk lol...). his makes more bass facin
forwards than backwards
-
shibb
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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View this thread: http://www.caraudioforum.com/showthr...threadid=16622



  #21   Report Post  
Nousaine
 
Posts: n/a
Default Facing subs towards driver or away

"Luke Hague" wrote:

I'll list my setup and tell you what happens, perhaps you can explain why
this is so.
I have 2 Infinity Reference 10"s in a sealed box, powered by an RF 500s.
They were facing the front of my car ('96 Ford Escort LX hatchback). Now I
barely got any "thump", nothing rattled and it sounded nothing more than
glorfied mid-range. You could barely feel anything. So I decided to turn
them around and I ended up with the good mid-range, but also the low-range I
wanted, I could feel it in the mid of my back, back of my head, and my feet,
also bass distorted my vision in the rear view mirror which it did not
before. Now I have all kinds of bass inside the car, until the hatch is
opened, then it all just goes away. Can you explain this to me?


Usually this type of reported experience comes with other related changes.
Often hooking up a pair of woofers out-of-polarity will produce the first
result.

But this is easy to test; just turn them around again being sure to keep
everything except woofer orientation constant.

If you think about it what could change, other than more mid-range output from
the woofers at the wavelengths involved?


"Nousaine" wrote in message
...
"Luke Hague"
wrote:

I guess you didn't read Nousaine's post, which was what I was replying

too,
which is in this thread.


While I'm at it let me dispell another Urban Legend. Do you get more bass

with
the hatch open? Only outside the car.

Inside you get significantly less. Why? You lose the cabin gain transfer
function effect whre the driver displacement pressurizes the interior at

low
frequencies delivering 12 dB/octave reinforcement as frequency falls below

the
lowest mode which occurs at 60 Hz in a small car.

How about the trunk? Sometimes not an issue because the trunk itself is a

large
enough 'enclosure' to work with any woofer if it's an IB. If it's an IB,

sealed
or ported enclosure and the wall separating the cabin and the trunk isn't
perfectly sealed you'll often lose transfer function gain as well.


  #23   Report Post  
Eddie Runner
 
Posts: n/a
Default Facing subs towards driver or away

Both sealed and vented will usually sound better
with the woofer facing the back of the car.

Eddie

Tom Nousaine still thinks there is no difference...
ha ha ha

Luke Hague wrote:

That's what my post was getting at, he was saying a vented box would make a
difference, I was simply asking him, if that's true, then how come my sealed
one does as well?

"Eddie Runner" wrote in message
...
Nousaine dont know ****.

He claims turnng your box to aim to the back
in a car makes no difference.... he needs to get out more
into the real world... Every punk kid with a woofer box knows
it does!

Luke Hague wrote:

I guess you didn't read Nousaine's post, which was what I was replying

too,
which is in this thread.




  #24   Report Post  
Eddie Runner
 
Posts: n/a
Default Facing subs towards driver or away

My website explains it
http://www.installer.com/tech/aiming.html

Tom thinks it DOESNT HAPPEN!
ha ha ha

He will probably tell you that you had the woofers wired wrong and
when you turned the box around you musthave rewired them...
ha ha ha

Tom Nousaine has no expereicnce with real car audio systems
he is just a BLOW HARD.....

Test it for yourself!
(youy already did)
Eddie

Luke Hague wrote:

I'll list my setup and tell you what happens, perhaps you can explain why
this is so.
I have 2 Infinity Reference 10"s in a sealed box, powered by an RF 500s.
They were facing the front of my car ('96 Ford Escort LX hatchback). Now I
barely got any "thump", nothing rattled and it sounded nothing more than
glorfied mid-range. You could barely feel anything. So I decided to turn
them around and I ended up with the good mid-range, but also the low-range I
wanted, I could feel it in the mid of my back, back of my head, and my feet,
also bass distorted my vision in the rear view mirror which it did not
before. Now I have all kinds of bass inside the car, until the hatch is
opened, then it all just goes away. Can you explain this to me?

"Nousaine" wrote in message
...
"Luke Hague" wrote:

I guess you didn't read Nousaine's post, which was what I was replying

too,
which is in this thread.


While I'm at it let me dispell another Urban Legend. Do you get more bass

with
the hatch open? Only outside the car.

Inside you get significantly less. Why? You lose the cabin gain transfer
function effect whre the driver displacement pressurizes the interior at

low
frequencies delivering 12 dB/octave reinforcement as frequency falls below

the
lowest mode which occurs at 60 Hz in a small car.

How about the trunk? Sometimes not an issue because the trunk itself is a

large
enough 'enclosure' to work with any woofer if it's an IB. If it's an IB,

sealed
or ported enclosure and the wall separating the cabin and the trunk isn't
perfectly sealed you'll often lose transfer function gain as well.



  #25   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default Facing subs towards driver or away

i have heard putting subs at the back facing forward have more
cancellation issues due to wave bouncing off the back end and
cancelling the front wave...i read it in a website...



You can also read about alien visits on websites too. At bass wavelengths (17
feet @ 60 Hz and much longer at lower frequencies)


(and shorter at higher frequencies)

there just aren't any
"cancellation" issues going on in the car cabin.


Sure there are. The wavelength is on the order of car size. A 9ft path
length difference is enough to put the 60 Hz wave completely out of
phase. A 90 degree shift requires only 4.5 feet. That can easily be
the path length difference that the poster was referring to.

In your living room the standing wave region will occur in the bass range
(roughly 30 to 300 Hz) but in a much smaller space this is shifted up by about
an octave (60 to 600 Hz in a small car.)

But even at 60 Hz any 'cancellations' will occur at a fraction of a wavelength
(200-300 Hz) and not at the fundamental.


You don't need 180 degree differences to create attenuation or any other
response irregularities. Even so, why are you ignoring the importance
of "higher" frequencies?



  #26   Report Post  
Luke Hague
 
Posts: n/a
Default Facing subs towards driver or away

The only thing I changed was the direction of the subs, I just turned the
box around, I didn't have to unhook anything.

"Nousaine" wrote in message
...
"Luke Hague" wrote:

I'll list my setup and tell you what happens, perhaps you can explain why
this is so.
I have 2 Infinity Reference 10"s in a sealed box, powered by an RF

500s.
They were facing the front of my car ('96 Ford Escort LX hatchback). Now

I
barely got any "thump", nothing rattled and it sounded nothing more than
glorfied mid-range. You could barely feel anything. So I decided to

turn
them around and I ended up with the good mid-range, but also the

low-range I
wanted, I could feel it in the mid of my back, back of my head, and my

feet,
also bass distorted my vision in the rear view mirror which it did not
before. Now I have all kinds of bass inside the car, until the hatch is
opened, then it all just goes away. Can you explain this to me?


Usually this type of reported experience comes with other related changes.
Often hooking up a pair of woofers out-of-polarity will produce the first
result.

But this is easy to test; just turn them around again being sure to keep
everything except woofer orientation constant.

If you think about it what could change, other than more mid-range output

from
the woofers at the wavelengths involved?


"Nousaine" wrote in message
...
"Luke Hague"
wrote:

I guess you didn't read Nousaine's post, which was what I was

replying
too,
which is in this thread.

While I'm at it let me dispell another Urban Legend. Do you get more

bass
with
the hatch open? Only outside the car.

Inside you get significantly less. Why? You lose the cabin gain

transfer
function effect whre the driver displacement pressurizes the interior

at
low
frequencies delivering 12 dB/octave reinforcement as frequency falls

below
the
lowest mode which occurs at 60 Hz in a small car.

How about the trunk? Sometimes not an issue because the trunk itself is

a
large
enough 'enclosure' to work with any woofer if it's an IB. If it's an

IB,
sealed
or ported enclosure and the wall separating the cabin and the trunk

isn't
perfectly sealed you'll often lose transfer function gain as well.




  #27   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default Facing subs towards driver or away

Eddie starts in again. I've done the experiment several times. At subwoofer
frequencies it just doesn't matter. How could it? At 20 hz the wavelength is 50
feet long so the driver displacement just pressurizes the cabin no matter where
it's placed or what direction.


Why do you insist on always talking about the conditions at 20Hz? Let's
talk about real music here. What's the wavelength at 90Hz, hmmmm?

  #28   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default Facing subs towards driver or away

ahh yes.. good to see the lizman back...


Yeah? Let's take a vote on that.

  #29   Report Post  
Nousaine
 
Posts: n/a
Default Facing subs towards driver or away

Mark Zarella

i have heard putting subs at the back facing forward have more
cancellation issues due to wave bouncing off the back end and
cancelling the front wave...i read it in a website...



You can also read about alien visits on websites too. At bass wavelengths

(17
feet @ 60 Hz and much longer at lower frequencies)


(and shorter at higher frequencies)

there just aren't any
"cancellation" issues going on in the car cabin.


Sure there are. The wavelength is on the order of car size. A 9ft path
length difference is enough to put the 60 Hz wave completely out of
phase. A 90 degree shift requires only 4.5 feet. That can easily be
the path length difference that the poster was referring to.


4.5 feet is not the "distance" involved in deciding which "way" to face the
woofer at subwoofer frequencies.


In your living room the standing wave region will occur in the bass range
(roughly 30 to 300 Hz) but in a much smaller space this is shifted up by

about
an octave (60 to 600 Hz in a small car.)

But even at 60 Hz any 'cancellations' will occur at a fraction of a

wavelength
(200-300 Hz) and not at the fundamental.


You don't need 180 degree differences to create attenuation or any other
response irregularities. Even so, why are you ignoring the importance
of "higher" frequencies?


I'm not. But most people will low pass a "subwoofer" which seemed to me to be
the point of this thread. As I said earlier in a vehicle the standing wave
region is shifted upward in frequency by an octave compared to a listening
room, which is an interesting phenomenon and problem but it generally isn't a
"do I get more/better bass when the woofer faces the rear of the car?"

Bass is the same either way. Midrange can be a factor.
  #31   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default Facing subs towards driver or away


But Eddie and the woofer-direction folks aren't talking 90 Hz.


What gives you that impression?

But I'll agree
that many people will interpret changes at 100-200 Hz as "Bass" effects.


As they should be. Furthermore, there's quite a bit of information
under "100-200Hz" yet above 20Hz. Wouldn't you agree?

What is interesting is that with the woofer facing the listener it's quite
likely that there will be significantly more low-midrange output. This can
either be an advantage or a problem, depending.

But the argument in this thread is that simply facing the woofer toward the
rear of the car delivers more bass.


Not the way it's been stated by Eddie. Eddie has simply pointed out
that it provides a difference, not that it's necessarily better. He's
mentioned that people TEND to like it the other way, and he's described
the source of the difference. His description is straightforward and
obeys the laws of physics, yet he's never gone into the specifics of the
effects on the spectral response.

It can only do that when you consider
upper-bass and lower midrange(usually 80 hz and above) as the key elements.
Depending on the intended woofer operating range this may or may not be
important.


It's almost always important.

But the general population seems to simply classify any change in sound as
more/better "bass" when it's not.

I think it's useful to break down these Urban Legends into component factors
and focus on what's really happening acoustically.


Yes, it's worth an in-depth description. I think Eddie's webpage
provides a general description, but it's hardly a comprehensive one.
His website is geared towards users with a certain level of expertise,
and I suggest that someone further describes the effect. Preferably,
someone who's actually made the measurements. But to come in and say
that the effect doesn't exist flies in the face of the common
observations made by just about everyone that's installed a subwoofer.

  #32   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default Facing subs towards driver or away

there just aren't any
"cancellation" issues going on in the car cabin.


Sure there are. The wavelength is on the order of car size. A 9ft path
length difference is enough to put the 60 Hz wave completely out of
phase. A 90 degree shift requires only 4.5 feet. That can easily be
the path length difference that the poster was referring to.



4.5 feet is not the "distance" involved in deciding which "way" to face the
woofer at subwoofer frequencies.


No? If you compare the two extremes that Eddie brings up on his site
(namely, rear of the trunk, opposite orientation vs. front of the trunk,
facing driver), a 4.5 foot difference is easily achieved.

You don't need 180 degree differences to create attenuation or any other
response irregularities. Even so, why are you ignoring the importance
of "higher" frequencies?



I'm not. But most people will low pass a "subwoofer" which seemed to me to be
the point of this thread.


Low-passing does not eliminate the frequencies in question here. It's
common to LPF in the 80-100Hz range, which still delivers quite a bit of
content in the 80-100Hz region to the subwoofer. Most consider 80-100Hz
to be bass rather than midrange, though admittedly the distinction can
be arbitrary.

As I said earlier in a vehicle the standing wave
region is shifted upward in frequency by an octave compared to a listening
room, which is an interesting phenomenon and problem but it generally isn't a
"do I get more/better bass when the woofer faces the rear of the car?"

Bass is the same either way. Midrange can be a factor.


Pathlength differences demonstrate that this is not true.

  #33   Report Post  
Nousaine
 
Posts: n/a
Default Facing subs towards driver or away

Mark Zarella
wrote:

But Eddie and the woofer-direction folks aren't talking 90 Hz.


What gives you that impression?


Because that's not what he talks about.


But I'll agree
that many people will interpret changes at 100-200 Hz as "Bass" effects.


As they should be. Furthermore, there's quite a bit of information
under "100-200Hz" yet above 20Hz. Wouldn't you agree?


Sure but most of that, generally below 60 Hz or so depending on vehicle size,
is happening in the pressure zone where woofer location and direction are
irrelevant.


What is interesting is that with the woofer facing the listener it's quite
likely that there will be significantly more low-midrange output. This can
either be an advantage or a problem, depending.

But the argument in this thread is that simply facing the woofer toward the
rear of the car delivers more bass.


Not the way it's been stated by Eddie. Eddie has simply pointed out
that it provides a difference, not that it's necessarily better. He's
mentioned that people TEND to like it the other way, and he's described
the source of the difference.


No he doesn't.He never mentions any frequency other than 60 Hz. He has shown no
understanding of the physics involved and the true acoustical nature of what's
happening.

His description is straightforward and
obeys the laws of physics, yet he's never gone into the specifics of the
effects on the spectral response.


It doesn't obey the laws of physics at all. The 'effect' he describes is not a
standing wave effect at all and it doesn't occur at 60 Hz as stated in his
example with the physical distances stated.

The 'effect' he describes is best described as a single wall reflection
interference notch or a floor bounce with a tower speaker where the effect with
a 60 Hz signal will occur at.150-300 Hz.


It can only do that when you consider
upper-bass and lower midrange(usually 80 hz and above) as the key elements.
Depending on the intended woofer operating range this may or may not be
important.


It's almost always important.

But the general population seems to simply classify any change in sound as
more/better "bass" when it's not.

I think it's useful to break down these Urban Legends into component

factors
and focus on what's really happening acoustically.


Yes, it's worth an in-depth description. I think Eddie's webpage
provides a general description, but it's hardly a comprehensive one.
His website is geared towards users with a certain level of expertise,
and I suggest that someone further describes the effect. Preferably,
someone who's actually made the measurements. But to come in and say
that the effect doesn't exist flies in the face of the common
observations made by just about everyone that's installed a subwoofer.


I've fully described what actually happens on this newsgroup. I've also done
the experiment a number of times and I've replicated the Eddie example outside
with a single wall reflection with a 12-inch woofer in a small sealed
enclosure.

In his example one can see an interference notch with his suggested 3-feet
distance that occurs at 280 Hz. Other than that the basic "difference" between
the woofer faced directly into the wall compared to the same woofer facing away
from the wall was approximately 9-dB more output above 400 Hz.

I've never said that no effect occurs. I've simply described what actually
happens and at what frequency it occurs.

Eddie's description is very misleading and he seemingly hasn't actually ever
done the measurements or he would know that his description is incorrect.

I'm sending an e-mail to you with "woofer direction" measurments actually taken
in a hatchback car where the response and Max SPL capability are graphically
described.
  #34   Report Post  
Luke Hague
 
Posts: n/a
Default Facing subs towards driver or away

I guess my big question, which Eddie seems to be the only one who can
answer, is why DOES it make a difference when you turn the box around? and
when I mean turn the box around, I DON'T mean change anything else.

"Nousaine" wrote in message
...
Mark Zarella
wrote:

But Eddie and the woofer-direction folks aren't talking 90 Hz.


What gives you that impression?


Because that's not what he talks about.


But I'll agree
that many people will interpret changes at 100-200 Hz as "Bass"

effects.

As they should be. Furthermore, there's quite a bit of information
under "100-200Hz" yet above 20Hz. Wouldn't you agree?


Sure but most of that, generally below 60 Hz or so depending on vehicle

size,
is happening in the pressure zone where woofer location and direction are
irrelevant.


What is interesting is that with the woofer facing the listener it's

quite
likely that there will be significantly more low-midrange output. This

can
either be an advantage or a problem, depending.

But the argument in this thread is that simply facing the woofer toward

the
rear of the car delivers more bass.


Not the way it's been stated by Eddie. Eddie has simply pointed out
that it provides a difference, not that it's necessarily better. He's
mentioned that people TEND to like it the other way, and he's described
the source of the difference.


No he doesn't.He never mentions any frequency other than 60 Hz. He has

shown no
understanding of the physics involved and the true acoustical nature of

what's
happening.

His description is straightforward and
obeys the laws of physics, yet he's never gone into the specifics of the
effects on the spectral response.


It doesn't obey the laws of physics at all. The 'effect' he describes is

not a
standing wave effect at all and it doesn't occur at 60 Hz as stated in his
example with the physical distances stated.

The 'effect' he describes is best described as a single wall reflection
interference notch or a floor bounce with a tower speaker where the effect

with
a 60 Hz signal will occur at.150-300 Hz.


It can only do that when you consider
upper-bass and lower midrange(usually 80 hz and above) as the key

elements.
Depending on the intended woofer operating range this may or may not be
important.


It's almost always important.

But the general population seems to simply classify any change in sound

as
more/better "bass" when it's not.

I think it's useful to break down these Urban Legends into component

factors
and focus on what's really happening acoustically.


Yes, it's worth an in-depth description. I think Eddie's webpage
provides a general description, but it's hardly a comprehensive one.
His website is geared towards users with a certain level of expertise,
and I suggest that someone further describes the effect. Preferably,
someone who's actually made the measurements. But to come in and say
that the effect doesn't exist flies in the face of the common
observations made by just about everyone that's installed a subwoofer.


I've fully described what actually happens on this newsgroup. I've also

done
the experiment a number of times and I've replicated the Eddie example

outside
with a single wall reflection with a 12-inch woofer in a small sealed
enclosure.

In his example one can see an interference notch with his suggested 3-feet
distance that occurs at 280 Hz. Other than that the basic "difference"

between
the woofer faced directly into the wall compared to the same woofer facing

away
from the wall was approximately 9-dB more output above 400 Hz.

I've never said that no effect occurs. I've simply described what actually
happens and at what frequency it occurs.

Eddie's description is very misleading and he seemingly hasn't actually

ever
done the measurements or he would know that his description is incorrect.

I'm sending an e-mail to you with "woofer direction" measurments actually

taken
in a hatchback car where the response and Max SPL capability are

graphically
described.



  #35   Report Post  
Paul Vina
 
Posts: n/a
Default Facing subs towards driver or away

If you read Nousaine's posts he tells you. There IS a change in your
system, he and Eddie disagree as to what frequencies are affected.


Paul Vina




"Luke Hague" wrote in message
...
I guess my big question, which Eddie seems to be the only one who can
answer, is why DOES it make a difference when you turn the box around? and
when I mean turn the box around, I DON'T mean change anything else.

"Nousaine" wrote in message
...
Mark Zarella
wrote:

But Eddie and the woofer-direction folks aren't talking 90 Hz.

What gives you that impression?


Because that's not what he talks about.


But I'll agree
that many people will interpret changes at 100-200 Hz as "Bass"

effects.

As they should be. Furthermore, there's quite a bit of information
under "100-200Hz" yet above 20Hz. Wouldn't you agree?


Sure but most of that, generally below 60 Hz or so depending on vehicle

size,
is happening in the pressure zone where woofer location and direction

are
irrelevant.


What is interesting is that with the woofer facing the listener it's

quite
likely that there will be significantly more low-midrange output.

This
can
either be an advantage or a problem, depending.

But the argument in this thread is that simply facing the woofer

toward
the
rear of the car delivers more bass.

Not the way it's been stated by Eddie. Eddie has simply pointed out
that it provides a difference, not that it's necessarily better. He's
mentioned that people TEND to like it the other way, and he's described
the source of the difference.


No he doesn't.He never mentions any frequency other than 60 Hz. He has

shown no
understanding of the physics involved and the true acoustical nature of

what's
happening.

His description is straightforward and
obeys the laws of physics, yet he's never gone into the specifics of

the
effects on the spectral response.


It doesn't obey the laws of physics at all. The 'effect' he describes is

not a
standing wave effect at all and it doesn't occur at 60 Hz as stated in

his
example with the physical distances stated.

The 'effect' he describes is best described as a single wall reflection
interference notch or a floor bounce with a tower speaker where the

effect
with
a 60 Hz signal will occur at.150-300 Hz.


It can only do that when you consider
upper-bass and lower midrange(usually 80 hz and above) as the key

elements.
Depending on the intended woofer operating range this may or may not

be
important.

It's almost always important.

But the general population seems to simply classify any change in

sound
as
more/better "bass" when it's not.

I think it's useful to break down these Urban Legends into component
factors
and focus on what's really happening acoustically.

Yes, it's worth an in-depth description. I think Eddie's webpage
provides a general description, but it's hardly a comprehensive one.
His website is geared towards users with a certain level of expertise,
and I suggest that someone further describes the effect. Preferably,
someone who's actually made the measurements. But to come in and say
that the effect doesn't exist flies in the face of the common
observations made by just about everyone that's installed a subwoofer.


I've fully described what actually happens on this newsgroup. I've also

done
the experiment a number of times and I've replicated the Eddie example

outside
with a single wall reflection with a 12-inch woofer in a small sealed
enclosure.

In his example one can see an interference notch with his suggested

3-feet
distance that occurs at 280 Hz. Other than that the basic "difference"

between
the woofer faced directly into the wall compared to the same woofer

facing
away
from the wall was approximately 9-dB more output above 400 Hz.

I've never said that no effect occurs. I've simply described what

actually
happens and at what frequency it occurs.

Eddie's description is very misleading and he seemingly hasn't actually

ever
done the measurements or he would know that his description is

incorrect.

I'm sending an e-mail to you with "woofer direction" measurments

actually
taken
in a hatchback car where the response and Max SPL capability are

graphically
described.







  #36   Report Post  
Eddie Runner
 
Posts: n/a
Default Facing subs towards driver or away

Tom Nousaine keeps insisting THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE!

He has said if you do hear a BASS difference by turning the box
around then you either changed something or you are halucinating.

Every installer and so many kids that install thier own woofers know
that turning the box to the rear of the car usually produces MORE BASS!
Probaby MOST of the folks on here KNOW THIS ALREADY and
have experienced it for themselves....

THE REASON!
TOM on the other hand is stuck in a corner... Several years ago he
wrote an article for Car Stereo Review that claimed the woofer box
orientation is not important... !! And those fools at CSR published it!
(ha ha) anyway, Toms professional credibility would be SHOT if
he admitted to what so many of us know for a fact ....

The reason he didnt hear or measure a difference (if you read the
article) is because of the simple fact that his test car was a CORVETTE!
(ha ha again)

Butting a box in the hatch of a corvette, there isnt much room to move the
box very far, so the effects I describe on my website would probably be
non existant (to the ear)...

In a normal car trunk, turning a big box around or moving it substancially
can make a large noticable difference!

In a tiny corevett that has to have a TINY box anyway, how far car it
be moved??? ha ha .. not far enough for Tom to hear a difference!

NO ****!
So he based the laws of physics on his little crackerbox CORVETTE!

Thats the problem as I see it!
Thats why he wont admit what we can all hear...

Good luck argueing with him, he will NEVER admit it or even try
to have a resonable technical discussion about it....

Eddie Runner


Luke Hague wrote:

I guess my big question, which Eddie seems to be the only one who can
answer, is why DOES it make a difference when you turn the box around? and
when I mean turn the box around, I DON'T mean change anything else.

"Nousaine" wrote in message
...


  #37   Report Post  
Paul Vina
 
Posts: n/a
Default Facing subs towards driver or away

I can move the S12L5 in my wife's car ('95 Jetta) all over the trunk and it
sounds exactly the same no matter where I put it. If I run it full range
the lower midrange is louder but the bass sounds the same.





Paul Vina





"Eddie Runner" wrote in message
...
Tom Nousaine keeps insisting THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE!

He has said if you do hear a BASS difference by turning the box
around then you either changed something or you are halucinating.

Every installer and so many kids that install thier own woofers know
that turning the box to the rear of the car usually produces MORE BASS!
Probaby MOST of the folks on here KNOW THIS ALREADY and
have experienced it for themselves....

THE REASON!
TOM on the other hand is stuck in a corner... Several years ago he
wrote an article for Car Stereo Review that claimed the woofer box
orientation is not important... !! And those fools at CSR published it!
(ha ha) anyway, Toms professional credibility would be SHOT if
he admitted to what so many of us know for a fact ....

The reason he didnt hear or measure a difference (if you read the
article) is because of the simple fact that his test car was a CORVETTE!
(ha ha again)

Butting a box in the hatch of a corvette, there isnt much room to move the
box very far, so the effects I describe on my website would probably be
non existant (to the ear)...

In a normal car trunk, turning a big box around or moving it substancially
can make a large noticable difference!

In a tiny corevett that has to have a TINY box anyway, how far car it
be moved??? ha ha .. not far enough for Tom to hear a difference!

NO ****!
So he based the laws of physics on his little crackerbox CORVETTE!

Thats the problem as I see it!
Thats why he wont admit what we can all hear...

Good luck argueing with him, he will NEVER admit it or even try
to have a resonable technical discussion about it....

Eddie Runner


Luke Hague wrote:

I guess my big question, which Eddie seems to be the only one who can
answer, is why DOES it make a difference when you turn the box around?

and
when I mean turn the box around, I DON'T mean change anything else.

"Nousaine" wrote in message
...




  #38   Report Post  
Eddie Runner
 
Posts: n/a
Default Facing subs towards driver or away

I would say thats a good thing Paul... Did you just scoot the box
around or did you actually try flipping it over so the woofers
aim at the back of the car? And then compare that bass to
the woofers aimed UP at the rear deck or to the front of the car..

Eddie

Paul Vina wrote:

I can move the S12L5 in my wife's car ('95 Jetta) all over the trunk and it
sounds exactly the same no matter where I put it. If I run it full range
the lower midrange is louder but the bass sounds the same.

Paul Vina


  #39   Report Post  
Eddie Runner
 
Posts: n/a
Default Facing subs towards driver or away

http://installer.com/tech/aiming2.html
Ok TOM, here are the tests I finally got around to running (today)
Unlike your BOGUS made up tests, I have pictures as well as
witnesses to back up my claims....

ha ha
Click on the link above to see what I did today...

I cant wait to hear your excuses....

Eddie Runner
http://installer.com/tech/aiming2.html

Nousaine wrote:

s7oned wrote:

i have heard putting subs at the back facing forward have more
cancellation issues due to wave bouncing off the back end and
cancelling the front wave...i read it in a website...


You can also read about alien visits on websites too. At bass wavelengths (17
feet @ 60 Hz and much longer at lower frequencies) there just aren't any
"cancellation" issues going on in the car cabin.

In your living room the standing wave region will occur in the bass range
(roughly 30 to 300 Hz) but in a much smaller space this is shifted up by about
an octave (60 to 600 Hz in a small car.)

But even at 60 Hz any 'cancellations' will occur at a fraction of a wavelength
(200-300 Hz) and not at the fundamental.

and according to
it.. subs facing back and as close to the trunklid or hatch USUALLY
yeild best results.


Often it will; but not for the reasons stated on that website. The only
advantage of subwoofer orientation is that facing the woofer/port away from the
listener reduces the possibility that mid-range sounds and driver/box/port
noises will be less likely to be audible.

.HOWEVER..i recommend you try them out and see whats
better...shouldnt take too much effort.
--
s7oned


Good idea.


  #40   Report Post  
Eddie Runner
 
Posts: n/a
Default Facing subs towards driver or away

On this test I just performes we could not have hooked it up
out of polarity cause there is JUST ONE WOOFER!
http://installer.com/tech/aiming2.html

ha ha
Eddie Runner

Nousaine wrote:

Usually this type of reported experience comes with other related changes.
Often hooking up a pair of woofers out-of-polarity will produce the first
result.


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