Hi group,

I would like to know what speaker cables you recommend for the setup
below. Currently I am using Oehlbach Silverline 1020*. I want to
replace them for pure copper cables and take advantage of biwiring.

Cable brands I consider to be extremely good and would love their
stuff to carry electrons in my system: Audioquest, Cardas, Nordost,
XLO, perhaps Tara Labs as well.

My system:

NAD C370 integrated amp (worth $850)
NAD C541i CD player (worth $450)
Mordaunt-Short MS908 speakers, biwirable (worth $900)

I have heard and read several times that XLO stuff is the best in the
world which makes me positively biased towards the brand, but I want
to avoid any ripoffs. XLO's Ultra product range seems to be a nice
choice, although, the cables look cheap (in construction).

Also, what would be the cons of buying a used audio cable on the
internet or in a 2nd hand shop or in places like that? Perhaps a way
to obtain insanely priced cables for almost a steal, isn't it?

I cannot wait to read what you have to say. I feel an unbelievable
need to replace my current cables and I am sure this is the place to
learn from all of you.
Thank you.

"Jogobella" wrote in message
news:566pc.48384$z06.6906443@attbi_s01...
Hi group,

I would like to know what speaker cables you recommend for the setup
below. Currently I am using Oehlbach Silverline 1020*. I want to
replace them for pure copper cables and take advantage of biwiring.

Cable brands I consider to be extremely good and would love their
stuff to carry electrons in my system: Audioquest, Cardas, Nordost,
XLO, perhaps Tara Labs as well.

My system:

NAD C370 integrated amp (worth $850)
NAD C541i CD player (worth $450)
Mordaunt-Short MS908 speakers, biwirable (worth $900)

I have heard and read several times that XLO stuff is the best in the
world which makes me positively biased towards the brand, but I want
to avoid any ripoffs. XLO's Ultra product range seems to be a nice
choice, although, the cables look cheap (in construction).

Also, what would be the cons of buying a used audio cable on the
internet or in a 2nd hand shop or in places like that? Perhaps a way
to obtain insanely priced cables for almost a steal, isn't it?

I cannot wait to read what you have to say. I feel an unbelievable
need to replace my current cables and I am sure this is the place to
learn from all of you.

Radio Shack "gold" interconnects and banana plugs and either base level 12
gauge Monster or "Home Depot" variety cable is as far as I go.

(Jogobella) wrote in news:566pc.48384$z06.6906443
@attbi_s01:

I cannot wait to read what you have to say. I feel an unbelievable
need to replace my current cables and I am sure this is the place to
learn from all of you.
Thank you.

No, this is not the place to learn anything about cables! Because everytime
somebody post a cable question, that will be a war broke out!

You cannot get pure objective suggestion from both "spectrum of
audiophile".

So, I recommend: go get the cable and hear it yourself, I believe more and
more cable dealers are willing to have that kind of test-drive, pay first,
try it for a week or so, if you don't like it, return it back to get your
full refund. All you will lose is your shipping charge.

Panzzi

Jogobella wrote:

Hi group,

I would like to know what speaker cables you recommend for the setup
below. Currently I am using Oehlbach Silverline 1020*. I want to
replace them for pure copper cables and take advantage of biwiring.

I recommend that you buy generic cables from your local hardware store.The
gauge you need depends on how far your speakers are from your amp. I also
recommend that you not bother with biwiring.

Cable brands I consider to be extremely good and would love their
stuff to carry electrons in my system: Audioquest, Cardas, Nordost,
XLO, perhaps Tara Labs as well.

It would be pretty swell if these cables carried electrons, but that's not
what cables do.

My system:

NAD C370 integrated amp (worth $850)
NAD C541i CD player (worth $450)
Mordaunt-Short MS908 speakers, biwirable (worth $900)

I have heard and read several times that XLO stuff is the best in the
world which makes me positively biased towards the brand, but I want
to avoid any ripoffs.

Then I would avoid any of the brands you mentioned.

XLO's Ultra product range seems to be a nice
choice, although, the* cables look cheap (in construction).

Well, if you care about looks (which is a perfectly reasonable thing to care
about), then buy whatever brand looks best to you. Just make sure it is of
sufficient gauge to ensure flat frequency response. 12 AWG is the safe bet,
although it's probably overkill for runs under 10 feet.

Also, what would be the cons of buying a used audio cable on the
internet or in a 2nd hand shop or in places like that? Perhaps a way
to obtain insanely priced cables for almost a steal, isn't it?

No, it's just a way to pay $50 for a $2 wire, instead of paying $100 for a
$2 wire.

I cannot wait to read what you have to say. I feel an unbelievable
need to replace my current cables and I am sure this is the place to
learn from all of you.
Thank you.

You're most welcome. Hope you're prepared for a few surprises.

bob

__________________________________________________ _______________
Watch LIVE baseball games on your computer with MLB.TV, included with MSN
Premium! http://join.msn.click-url.com/go/onm...ave/direct/01/

I like Tributaries Biwired Speaker Cables new at $130.00 for an 8' pair
with bananaplugs
all around at The Speaker Shop in Buffalo(www.speakershop.com) mixed
copper and silver or Silver Sonic DH Labs Biwired
Silver coated copper T-14 Speaker Cables at around $200.00 for an 8'
pair. On the other
hand, there is lamp cord.
Jogobella wrote:
Hi group,

I would like to know what speaker cables you recommend for the setup
below. Currently I am using Oehlbach Silverline 1020*. I want to
replace them for pure copper cables and take advantage of biwiring.

Cable brands I consider to be extremely good and would love their
stuff to carry electrons in my system: Audioquest, Cardas, Nordost,
XLO, perhaps Tara Labs as well.

My system:

NAD C370 integrated amp (worth $850)
NAD C541i CD player (worth $450)
Mordaunt-Short MS908 speakers, biwirable (worth $900)

I have heard and read several times that XLO stuff is the best in the
world which makes me positively biased towards the brand, but I want
to avoid any ripoffs. XLO's Ultra product range seems to be a nice
choice, although, the cables look cheap (in construction).

Also, what would be the cons of buying a used audio cable on the
internet or in a 2nd hand shop or in places like that? Perhaps a way
to obtain insanely priced cables for almost a steal, isn't it?

I cannot wait to read what you have to say. I feel an unbelievable
need to replace my current cables and I am sure this is the place to
learn from all of you.
Thank you.

Norman Schwartz wrote:


"Jogobella" wrote in message
news:566pc.48384$z06.6906443@attbi_s01...
Hi group,

I would like to know what speaker cables you recommend for the setup
below. Currently I am using Oehlbach Silverline 1020*. I want to
replace them for pure copper cables and take advantage of biwiring.

Cable brands I consider to be extremely good and would love their
stuff to carry electrons in my system: Audioquest, Cardas, Nordost,
XLO, perhaps Tara Labs as well.

My system:

NAD C370 integrated amp (worth $850)
NAD C541i CD player (worth $450)
Mordaunt-Short MS908 speakers, biwirable (worth $900)

I have heard and read several times that XLO stuff is the best in the
world which makes me positively biased towards the brand, but I want
to avoid any ripoffs. XLO's Ultra product range seems to be a nice
choice, although, the cables look cheap (in construction).

Also, what would be the cons of buying a used audio cable on the
internet or in a 2nd hand shop or in places like that? Perhaps a way
to obtain insanely priced cables for almost a steal, isn't it?

I cannot wait to read what you have to say. I feel an unbelievable
need to replace my current cables and I am sure this is the place to
learn from all of you.

Radio Shack "gold" interconnects and banana plugs and either base level 12
gauge Monster or "Home Depot" variety cable is as far as I go.









I have tried Radio Shack "gold" interconnects in the past, and have found their
build quality substandard. More specifically, the connectors tended to come
loose from the cables. If I were going to buy any name brand cable these days
(and I'm not- I've had the same moderately priced interrconnects and cables for
almost 10 years with no problems whatsoever), I would definitely opt for used
cables or perhaps a set of "blemished" cables offered by a dealer at extreme
discounts (what I actually got) - if available. I would also strongly
recommend auditioning different brands first, to see if you can actually hear a
difference between them.



Bruce J. Richman

Jogobella wrote:

Hi group,

I would like to know what speaker cables you recommend for the setup
below. Currently I am using Oehlbach Silverline 1020*. I want to
replace them for pure copper cables and take advantage of biwiring.

Cable brands I consider to be extremely good and would love their
stuff to carry electrons in my system: Audioquest, Cardas, Nordost,
XLO, perhaps Tara Labs as well.

My system:

NAD C370 integrated amp (worth $850)
NAD C541i CD player (worth $450)
Mordaunt-Short MS908 speakers, biwirable (worth $900)

I have heard and read several times that XLO stuff is the best in the
world which makes me positively biased towards the brand, but I want
to avoid any ripoffs. XLO's Ultra product range seems to be a nice
choice, although, the cables look cheap (in construction).

Also, what would be the cons of buying a used audio cable on the
internet or in a 2nd hand shop or in places like that? Perhaps a way
to obtain insanely priced cables for almost a steal, isn't it?

I cannot wait to read what you have to say. I feel an unbelievable
need to replace my current cables and I am sure this is the place to
learn from all of you.
Thank you.

This gets us into the "wires have a definable sound" debate,
which, given the ease with which wires can be compared,
continues to amaze me. Actually, I have to confess that this
one also remains a real sore spot with me, as anyone will
realize who read the "Audio Malarkey" column in issue 89 of
The Sensible Sound a while back. That one was put together
by me and engineer Fred Davis. Fred has also published
several articles on speaker wire in the JAES, as well as the
now defunct Audio Magazine. Fred has tested a LOT of speaker
wire.

I also have done several comparisons between varying lengths
of 16 AWG lamp cord and speaker cables as exotic as a
Dunlavy LCR Ultra wire set that cost nearly a grand (they
were thick as battery jumpers) and Dunlavy Z6 wire (designed
for specific impedance and capacitance behavior). I have
also included some heavy 12 AWG, fine-stranded wire in these
comparisons. In no case did I hear a difference between any
of these wires, even with runs up to 24 feet. And, hey, with
most of those comparisons I was using some pretty pricey
Dunlavy speakers, NHT speakers, and Waveform speakers. Not
exactly chopped liver ancillary hardware for comparing
wires.

Consequently, I am done with reviewing wires for test
reports or even comparing wires for the heck of it. As far
as I am concerned, wires are wires. Unless there is
something really, really wrong with an item being auditioned
the thing should be no better or worse than any others with
resistance, capacitance, and inductance characteristics that
are not out in left field. This goes for speaker wire and
power cords as well as any of the shielded stuff.

Yes, you do need speaker wire that is thick enough to
minimize resistance losses, and the inductance and
capacitance characteristics of said wire should not be
outrageous. And of course you certainly want your
interconnects to have jacks on the ends that do not fall
apart when you unplug them. However, it is overkill in the
extreme to spend hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars on
something as mundane as wire.

You want to save some money? Well, the best bang-for-buck
wire I have seen for speaker hookups is the multi-stranded,
low-voltage wire designed for outdoor use with the kind of
lights you see running along walkways, driveways, and
landscaping borders in front of houses. It not only can do
the job, but its outdoor-use construction makes it durable
as hell. You can run it through attics or inside crawl
spaces and not worry about it falling apart. Its only
drawback is the black color, which makes the thick 14- and
12-AWG versions rather conspicuous when they run along the
floor/wall junction to your speakers.

Howard Ferstler

Odds are many/all of the brands you list are made by belden wire company.
Get a catalog, maybe online, and find what looks like the cloest if not
the same thing and attach your own connections. One very well known
speaker manufacture says the radio shack "gold" connecting wire and home
depot 12 gauge zip cord are hard to beat for their favorable electrical
values. After self reflection, what part is your obvious egarness
psychological and what part responce to marketing you might have
experienced? You didn't mention any electrical short coming you think
the current wire might have.

Hi group,

I would like to know what speaker cables you recommend for the setup
below. Currently I am using Oehlbach Silverline 1020*. I want to
replace them for pure copper cables and take advantage of biwiring.

Cable brands I consider to be extremely good and would love their
stuff to carry electrons in my system: Audioquest, Cardas, Nordost,
XLO, perhaps Tara Labs as well.

My system:

NAD C370 integrated amp (worth $850)
NAD C541i CD player (worth $450)
Mordaunt-Short MS908 speakers, biwirable (worth $900)

I have heard and read several times that XLO stuff is the best in the
world which makes me positively biased towards the brand, but I want
to avoid any ripoffs. XLO's Ultra product range seems to be a nice
choice, although, the cables look cheap (in construction).

Also, what would be the cons of buying a used audio cable on the
internet or in a 2nd hand shop or in places like that? Perhaps a way
to obtain insanely priced cables for almost a steal, isn't it?

I cannot wait to read what you have to say. I feel an unbelievable
need to replace my current cables and I am sure this is the place to
learn from all of you.
Thank you.

Panzzi wrote:

(Jogobella) wrote in news:566pc.48384$z06.6906443
@attbi_s01:

I cannot wait to read what you have to say. I feel an unbelievable
need to replace my current cables and I am sure this is the place to
learn from all of you.
Thank you.

No, this is not the place to learn anything about cables! Because everytime
somebody post a cable question, that will be a war broke out!

Well, gee, I don't see any war breaking out yet. In fact, in the initial
wave of responses, yours was the only one that DIDN'T offer any specific
advice about what he should buy.

And I'd say he could learn a lot from a few of the responses so far. He's
probably already learned that the views he's seen in the "mainstream"
audiophile press (and perhaps heard from salesmen) on the subject of cables
aren't universally shared by audiophiles.

bob

__________________________________________________ _______________
MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page – FREE
download! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/...ave/direct/01/

"Jogobella" wrote in message
news:566pc.48384$z06.6906443@attbi_s01...
Hi group,

I would like to know what speaker cables you recommend for the setup
below. Currently I am using Oehlbach Silverline 1020*. I want to
replace them for pure copper cables and take advantage of biwiring.

Cable brands I consider to be extremely good and would love their
stuff to carry electrons in my system: Audioquest, Cardas, Nordost,
XLO, perhaps Tara Labs as well.

My system:

NAD C370 integrated amp (worth $850)
NAD C541i CD player (worth $450)
Mordaunt-Short MS908 speakers, biwirable (worth $900)

I have heard and read several times that XLO stuff is the best in
the
world which makes me positively biased towards the brand, but I want
to avoid any ripoffs. XLO's Ultra product range seems to be a nice
choice, although, the cables look cheap (in construction).

Borrow the cable that you've heard is the best from the dealer. Take
it home and try it. If you like it, buy it. Otherwise take it back
and try a different one. Repeat this process until you find something
that both sounds good and is affordable.

Norm Strong

On 5/14/04 5:41 PM, in article k2bpc.2981$qA.292466@attbi_s51,
" wrote:

Odds are many/all of the brands you list are made by belden wire company.

Cardas makes their own wire, according to their brochures. Most other cable
companies buy it from cardas, belden or a few other sources.

On 5/14/04 5:20 PM, in article , "Howard
Ferstler" wrote:

This gets us into the "wires have a definable sound" debate,
which, given the ease with which wires can be compared,
continues to amaze me.

Yes - they are really easy to compare *if* you can get ahold of the cables
to test!

I have kimber 4's, 16ga. zip cord and Romex 10 ga. I do notice fairly
substantial changes between all three - mostly with bass articulation, bass
level and timing in my speakers.

"Bob Marcus" wrote in message
...
Panzzi wrote:
And I'd say he could learn a lot from a few of the responses so far. He's
probably already learned that the views he's seen in the "mainstream"
audiophile press (and perhaps heard from salesmen) on the subject of
cables
aren't universally shared by audiophiles.

bob

Absolutely. The exchanges between John Dunlavy and others on the
question of speaker cable audibility were decisive in getting me off
of the upgrade bandwagon.

Truth be told, the best interconnect I ever heard was Art Dudley's
using 36-gauge magnet wire and $4 worth of Radio Shack RCA
plugs. Of course, I could have been entirely self-deluded, but at
that price, I could afford it!

Curt Simon

"Bob Marcus" wrote in
:

Panzzi wrote:

(Jogobella) wrote in news:566pc.48384$z06.6906443
@attbi_s01:

I cannot wait to read what you have to say. I feel an unbelievable
need to replace my current cables and I am sure this is the place
to learn from all of you.
Thank you.

No, this is not the place to learn anything about cables! Because
everytime somebody post a cable question, that will be a war broke
out!

Well, gee, I don't see any war breaking out yet. In fact, in the
initial wave of responses, yours was the only one that DIDN'T offer
any specific advice about what he should buy.

Read carefully before making comment! I did offer advice about what he
should buy. I believe is you didn't offer any specific advice instead?!

Panzzi

"I have kimber 4's, 16ga. zip cord and Romex 10 ga. I do notice fairly
substantial changes between all three - mostly with bass articulation,
bass
level and timing in my speakers."

Why do you think your perception report is an exception to the listening
alone benchmark testing which finds no difference? On what basis did
you
do testing of the above, was it blind, did you match levels and/or
measure
for differences in resistence that would affect level in th lengths you
use? What electrical properties do you think accounts for your
perceptions or do you ascribe them to the perception processing that
exists in the brain independent of the signal reaching your ears?

Bromo wrote:
On 5/14/04 5:41 PM, in article k2bpc.2981$qA.292466@attbi_s51,
" wrote:

Odds are many/all of the brands you list are made by belden wire company.

Cardas makes their own wire, according to their brochures. Most other cable
companies buy it from cardas, belden or a few other sources.


Have you read what Cardas wrote on cable break-in? That should tell you
a lot about Mr. George Cardas. As an RF engineer, you should really have
a great time reading it.

On 5/15/04 3:38 PM, in article ,
" wrote:

"I have kimber 4's, 16ga. zip cord and Romex 10 ga. I do notice fairly
substantial changes between all three - mostly with bass articulation,
bass
level and timing in my speakers."

Why do you think your perception report is an exception to the listening
alone benchmark testing which finds no difference?

I hear what others say they have done. I have not witnessed the test nor
have I audited them. Nor do I wish to.

After the flame wars on this group - I went and did my experiment and found
a difference. Period.

On 5/15/04 9:00 PM, in article , "chung"
wrote:

Bromo wrote:
On 5/14/04 5:41 PM, in article k2bpc.2981$qA.292466@attbi_s51,
" wrote:

Odds are many/all of the brands you list are made by belden wire company.

Cardas makes their own wire, according to their brochures. Most other cable
companies buy it from cardas, belden or a few other sources.


Have you read what Cardas wrote on cable break-in? That should tell you
a lot about Mr. George Cardas. As an RF engineer, you should really have
a great time reading it.

Nevertheless - Cardas makes their own wire and wire components. I
personally find the applications of the golden ratio to cables to be a bit
dubious - but as I am not a wire and cable expert - what do I know?

"I hear what others say they have done. I have not witnessed the test nor
have I audited them. Nor do I wish to.

After the flame wars on this group - I went and did my experiment and
found
a difference. Period."

Then you have no grounds for a claim to being an exception, personal
observation of the benchmark being irrelevant. You didn't respond to the
question of blinding and level matching etc. which was part of the
original question. Your comment goes far past just hearing a difference,
any difference, into the area of subjective labels. Is your report then
another added to many, which one has no reason to think is an exception to
the benchmark? Is your report just one more better understood as a
product of the perception process and not contained in the signal reaching
your ears?

Bromo wrote in message news:weDpc.8747$gr.696194@attbi_s52...
On 5/15/04 3:38 PM, in article ,
" wrote:

"I have kimber 4's, 16ga. zip cord and Romex 10 ga. I do notice fairly
substantial changes between all three - mostly with bass articulation,
bass
level and timing in my speakers."

Why do you think your perception report is an exception to the listening
alone benchmark testing which finds no difference?

I hear what others say they have done. I have not witnessed the test nor
have I audited them. Nor do I wish to.

After the flame wars on this group - I went and did my experiment and found
a difference. Period.

Well I had no idea this would come this far but surely there are a
couple lessons learned. I will definitely get rid of the silver cable
(system already overbright even with tone controls set flat, system
not quite satisfying bass-wise) and get some copper. Rhodium or gold
plated ends... who cares, right? One more thing though. Why should I
avoid bi-wiring? When asked if one should biwire their speakers,
Audioquest in their web FAQ say "Absolutely!". Perhaps a marketing
initiative to double their sales, perhaps truth, being an audio
enthusiast rather than audiophile, I cannot decide. What is the deal
here, group...? Thank you for the posts, you are very kind to share
some knowledge with me.

Bromo wrote:
On 5/15/04 9:00 PM, in article , "chung"
wrote:
Bromo wrote:
On 5/14/04 5:41 PM, in article k2bpc.2981$qA.292466@attbi_s51,
" wrote:
Odds are many/all of the brands you list are made by belden wire
company.
Cardas makes their own wire, according to their brochures. Most
other cable
companies buy it from cardas, belden or a few other sources.
Have you read what Cardas wrote on cable break-in? That should tell
you
a lot about Mr. George Cardas. As an RF engineer, you should really
have
a great time reading it.
Nevertheless - Cardas makes their own wire and wire components. I
personally find the applications of the golden ratio to cables to be a
bit
dubious - but as I am not a wire and cable expert - what do I know?

Given Mr. Cardas' knowledge of electrical engineering as displayed in
his article on break-in, what would give you the idea that he knows
more about wire and cable than an RF engineer like yourself?

You are the RF engineer, no? I apologize if that's not your profession.

Bromo wrote:

On 5/15/04 3:38 PM, in article ,
" wrote:
"I have kimber 4's, 16ga. zip cord and Romex 10 ga. I do notice
fairly
substantial changes between all three - mostly with bass articulation,
bass
level and timing in my speakers."
Why do you think your perception report is an exception to the
listening
alone benchmark testing which finds no difference?
I hear what others say they have done. I have not witnessed the test
nor
have I audited them. Nor do I wish to.
After the flame wars on this group - I went and did my experiment and
found
a difference. Period.

So, did your experiment include simple freqeuncy response measurements?
Or controlling for bias?

I found it rather amazing that as an EE, you found differences between
2 cables in "bass articulation, bass level and timing", and yet have no
interest in further confirming your observations via measurements and
trying to understand why. Aren't you curious as to why two cables can
have different bass responses, after correcting for possible level
differences? After all, it can't be the inductance or the capacitance
of the cable, if we are talking bass, right?

Jogobella wrote:
Bromo wrote in message news:weDpc.8747$gr.696194@attbi_s52...
On 5/15/04 3:38 PM, in article ,
" wrote:

"I have kimber 4's, 16ga. zip cord and Romex 10 ga. I do notice fairly
substantial changes between all three - mostly with bass articulation,
bass
level and timing in my speakers."

Why do you think your perception report is an exception to the listening
alone benchmark testing which finds no difference?

I hear what others say they have done. I have not witnessed the test nor
have I audited them. Nor do I wish to.

After the flame wars on this group - I went and did my experiment and found
a difference. Period.

Well I had no idea this would come this far but surely there are a
couple lessons learned. I will definitely get rid of the silver cable
(system already overbright even with tone controls set flat, system
not quite satisfying bass-wise) and get some copper. Rhodium or gold
plated ends... who cares, right? One more thing though. Why should I
avoid bi-wiring? When asked if one should biwire their speakers,
Audioquest in their web FAQ say "Absolutely!". Perhaps a marketing
initiative to double their sales, perhaps truth, being an audio
enthusiast rather than audiophile, I cannot decide. What is the deal
here, group...? Thank you for the posts, you are very kind to share
some knowledge with me.


Take anything Audioquest says in their FAQ with a huge grain of salt. In
fact, it is better if you simply ignore their FAQ altogether; there is
so much misinformation there that it is less than useless.

If you do a search on biwiring on this newsgroup or rec.audio.tech, you
can read for yourself the various opinions on this. Bottom line is that
there is negligible difference measured or predicted by theory, if you
keep the overall gauge the same, in the vast majority of speakers.

Jogobella wrote:

Well I had no idea this would come this far but surely there are a
couple lessons learned. I will definitely get rid of the silver cable
(system already overbright even with tone controls set flat, system
not quite satisfying bass-wise)

I doubt the brightness of your system is caused by your silver cables, or
that changing to copper will make a difference. Silver and copper just
aren't that different, as conductors go. Of course, if the silver is very
thin (as it often is, for reasons of cost), switching to a thicker copper
cable might make a real difference.

The best way to tame brightness in a system is to play around with room
placement and treatments (assuming you don't want to invest in new
speakers).

and get some copper. Rhodium or gold
plated ends... who cares, right? One more thing though. Why should I
avoid bi-wiring? When asked if one should biwire their speakers,
Audioquest in their web FAQ say "Absolutely!". Perhaps a marketing
initiative to double their sales,

Bingo! And on your first guess! :-)

perhaps truth, being an audio
enthusiast rather than audiophile, I cannot decide. What is the deal
here, group...?

At some point, the signal has to split to the two drivers in your speaker.
The only thing biwiring does is change where that split occurs. With single
wiring, it takes place at the speaker terminals. with biwiring, it takes
place at the amp terminals. But the load your amp sees is the same in either
case. (There's a mathematical proof of this on www.pcavtech.com, I believe.)

bob

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On 5/16/04 1:39 PM, in article , "chung"
wrote:

Bromo wrote:

On 5/15/04 3:38 PM, in article ,
" wrote:
"I have kimber 4's, 16ga. zip cord and Romex 10 ga. I do notice
fairly
substantial changes between all three - mostly with bass articulation,
bass
level and timing in my speakers."
Why do you think your perception report is an exception to the
listening
alone benchmark testing which finds no difference?
I hear what others say they have done. I have not witnessed the test
nor
have I audited them. Nor do I wish to.
After the flame wars on this group - I went and did my experiment and
found
a difference. Period.

So, did your experiment include simple freqeuncy response measurements?
Or controlling for bias?

Nope - no measurements. I am not claiming any kind of differences as an
engineer. I am claiming differences based upon listening to my system after
the change. My wife, who was not aware of the mucking about came in after I
set it back up with the Romex and asked if I had messed around with the tone
controls.

I found it rather amazing that as an EE, you found differences between
2 cables in "bass articulation, bass level and timing", and yet have no
interest in further confirming your observations via measurements and
trying to understand why.

My job here was not professional, but as a listener to confirm or deny if a
change could be made to the sound of a hifi system with cables - something
quick and dirty that I could figure out in a few minutes.

I do not feel the need to go further in the context of this group - and
don't want to detract from my day job.

Aren't you curious as to why two cables can
have different bass responses, after correcting for possible level
differences? After all, it can't be the inductance or the capacitance
of the cable, if we are talking bass, right?

Of course I am curious - and if I get enough time I may try to figure it out
- but I alos work 60+ hours a week so have more interest in relaxing and
listening to my music than taking on yet another test, measurement and
simulation exercise.

It seems also, that a lot of the folks around here spend a lot of time
trying to "debunk" the observations (hich again I am curious about as well -
the need to do that in a forum that will generate no enlightenment with that
sort of behavior)

As it seems that this thread is getting out of hand, and I seem to be the
only guy holding this side of it - lord help me that I heard differences,
since that is Not Correct - I will have to rethink continuing further.

On 5/16/04 3:00 PM, in article , "Bob Marcus"
wrote:

perhaps truth, being an audio
enthusiast rather than audiophile, I cannot decide. What is the deal
here, group...?

At some point, the signal has to split to the two drivers in your speaker.
The only thing biwiring does is change where that split occurs. With single
wiring, it takes place at the speaker terminals. with biwiring, it takes
place at the amp terminals. But the load your amp sees is the same in either
case. (There's a mathematical proof of this on www.pcavtech.com, I believe.)

The only difference would be if the wire diameters were different or had
radically different lengths - don't know the impact.

If you were to bi-amp - using different amps for the bass and treble - it
might relieve a weaker amp of the need to drive an enormous woofer by
splitting the jobs between the two of them and avoid amp compression,,,?

On 5/16/04 1:11 PM, in article 4hNpc.102590$Ik.8117506@attbi_s53,
" wrote:

"I hear what others say they have done. I have not witnessed the test nor
have I audited them. Nor do I wish to.

After the flame wars on this group - I went and did my experiment and
found
a difference. Period."

Then you have no grounds for a claim to being an exception, personal
observation of the benchmark being irrelevant.

Personal obervatins ARE relevant. What others claim, I would believe based
upon faith - no matter what scientific claims.

You didn't respond to the
question of blinding and level matching etc. which was part of the
original question. Your comment goes far past just hearing a difference,
any difference, into the area of subjective labels.

I heard a difference and explained what I heard different. No more, no
less. I have no interest in trying to convince you - other than to notify
you that when I changed cables I heard it different. You don¹t' have to
believe me - it is your right.

Is your report then
another added to many, which one has no reason to think is an exception to
the benchmark? Is your report just one more better understood as a
product of the perception process and not contained in the signal reaching
your ears?

On 5/16/04 1:38 PM, in article , "chung"
wrote:

Bromo wrote:
On 5/15/04 9:00 PM, in article , "chung"
wrote:
Bromo wrote:
On 5/14/04 5:41 PM, in article k2bpc.2981$qA.292466@attbi_s51,
" wrote:
Odds are many/all of the brands you list are made by belden wire
company.
Cardas makes their own wire, according to their brochures. Most
other cable
companies buy it from cardas, belden or a few other sources.
Have you read what Cardas wrote on cable break-in? That should tell
you
a lot about Mr. George Cardas. As an RF engineer, you should really
have
a great time reading it.
Nevertheless - Cardas makes their own wire and wire components. I
personally find the applications of the golden ratio to cables to be a
bit
dubious - but as I am not a wire and cable expert - what do I know?

Given Mr. Cardas' knowledge of electrical engineering as displayed in
his article on break-in, what would give you the idea that he knows
more about wire and cable than an RF engineer like yourself?

You are the RF engineer, no? I apologize if that's not your profession.

I am - but I freely admit that I am not an expert on cables - but am
perfectly comfortable specifying coaxial or twsited wire cables for my
designs - which is not audio.

Bromo wrote:


Nevertheless - Cardas makes their own wire and wire components. I
personally find the applications of the golden ratio to cables to be a
bit
dubious - but as I am not a wire and cable expert - what do I know?

Given Mr. Cardas' knowledge of electrical engineering as displayed in
his article on break-in, what would give you the idea that he knows
more about wire and cable than an RF engineer like yourself?

You are the RF engineer, no? I apologize if that's not your profession.

I am - but I freely admit that I am not an expert on cables - but am
perfectly comfortable specifying coaxial or twsited wire cables for my
designs - which is not audio.


You believe that carrying audio signals is a more difficult task for
cables and wires, than carrying RF signals? You think that the way you
model or understand your cables at RF frequencies would not apply at audio?

"Well I had no idea this would come this far but surely there are a
couple lessons learned. I will definitely get rid of the silver cable
(system already overbright even with tone controls set flat, system
not quite satisfying bass-wise) and get some copper. Rhodium or gold
plated ends... who cares, right? One more thing though. Why should I
avoid bi-wiring? When asked if one should biwire their speakers,
Audioquest in their web FAQ say "Absolutely!". Perhaps a marketing
initiative to double their sales, perhaps truth, being an audio
enthusiast rather than audiophile, I cannot decide. What is the deal
here, group...? Thank you for the posts, you are very kind to share
some knowledge with me."

There have been several tests done, a benchmark by which to compare all
claims and reports that differences can be heard in wire. To date there
are no differences by listening alone. When the person listening didn't
know which wire was being tested all previous reports of difference
disappeared, this supports the view that the differences occured in the
perception process of the brain and were not in the signal when it
reached
the ears. The kind of difference you report above are exactly the kind
these tests show don't exist. Keep the wire and invest the money in
more
recordings knowing you cann't improve the signal to your ears by new
wire. Wy biwire is what one should ask. no difference will be heard.
As for marketing, if you sold wire and felt free to claim anything about
it , what would you say?

"Personal obervatins ARE relevant. What others claim, I would believe
based
upon faith - no matter what scientific claims."

snip

"I heard a difference and explained what I heard different. No more, no
less. I have no interest in trying to convince you - other than to notify
you that when I changed cables I heard it different. You don¹t' have to
believe me - it is your right.
"
Then your perception report is not unlike the many others made without
benefit of controlling for the distortions that are esily introduced by
the perception process in the brain. I full y believe you and any other
who says they percieve such differences. As an engineer I 'm a bit
surprised you juxtapose faith and science, not in the religious sense but
as one who deals in the confirmable, that which the customer can accept
because they can see the evidence and not feelings of faith that their rf
gear performs as reported.

Bromo wrote:

On 5/16/04 1:11 PM, in article 4hNpc.102590$Ik.8117506@attbi_s53,
" wrote:

"I hear what others say they have done. I have not witnessed the test nor
have I audited them. Nor do I wish to.

After the flame wars on this group - I went and did my experiment and
found
a difference. Period."

Then you have no grounds for a claim to being an exception, personal
observation of the benchmark being irrelevant.

Personal obervatins ARE relevant. What others claim, I would believe based
upon faith - no matter what scientific claims.

So if someone claims that green marker pens change the sound from the
CD, you would believe him? What about your years of professional
training? What if your professional training does not agree with those
claims?

I claim that green marker pens cannot change the sound from the CD. Do
you believe me? Or who would you believe? And why?

Bromo wrote:

On 5/16/04 1:39 PM, in article , "chung"
wrote:

Bromo wrote:

On 5/15/04 3:38 PM, in article ,
" wrote:
"I have kimber 4's, 16ga. zip cord and Romex 10 ga. I do notice
fairly
substantial changes between all three - mostly with bass articulation,
bass
level and timing in my speakers."
Why do you think your perception report is an exception to the
listening
alone benchmark testing which finds no difference?
I hear what others say they have done. I have not witnessed the test
nor
have I audited them. Nor do I wish to.
After the flame wars on this group - I went and did my experiment and
found
a difference. Period.

So, did your experiment include simple freqeuncy response measurements?
Or controlling for bias?

Nope - no measurements. I am not claiming any kind of differences as an
engineer. I am claiming differences based upon listening to my system after
the change. My wife, who was not aware of the mucking about came in after I
set it back up with the Romex and asked if I had messed around with the tone
controls.

Well, sooner or later, the wife/partner/child/innocent-bystander always
shows up in these anecdotes . My guess is that you were playing at
different volume levels.

I found it rather amazing that as an EE, you found differences between
2 cables in "bass articulation, bass level and timing", and yet have no
interest in further confirming your observations via measurements and
trying to understand why.

My job here was not professional, but as a listener to confirm or deny if a
change could be made to the sound of a hifi system with cables - something
quick and dirty that I could figure out in a few minutes.

You figured out that there was a change, yet you did not try to figure
out why there could be a change?


I do not feel the need to go further in the context of this group - and
don't want to detract from my day job.

OK. But now that you know that cables make a difference in bass
response, isn't that knowledge going to affect the way you do your
measurements in your day job? I mean, how can you trust your
measurements, and how do you know the cables you use in your
measurements do not affect those measurements? I mean, if bass response
can be affected, nothing can be trusted with those darned cables or
wires!


Aren't you curious as to why two cables can
have different bass responses, after correcting for possible level
differences? After all, it can't be the inductance or the capacitance
of the cable, if we are talking bass, right?

Of course I am curious - and if I get enough time I may try to figure it out
- but I alos work 60+ hours a week so have more interest in relaxing and
listening to my music than taking on yet another test, measurement and
simulation exercise.

It seems also, that a lot of the folks around here spend a lot of time
trying to "debunk" the observations (hich again I am curious about as well -
the need to do that in a forum that will generate no enlightenment with that
sort of behavior)

Well, if you could figure out why those cables make a change in bass
response, many people here will be extremely interested. In fact, you
may even win a Nobel prize....


As it seems that this thread is getting out of hand, and I seem to be the
only guy holding this side of it - lord help me that I heard differences,
since that is Not Correct - I will have to rethink continuing further.


That's how science moves forward. Make careful measurements, and try to
figure out why some measurements do not agree with current theory.
That's how we find out if current theory is wrong.

"Nope - no measurements. I am not claiming any kind of differences as
an
engineer. I am claiming differences based upon listening to my system
after the change. My wife, who was not aware of the mucking about came
in
after I set it back up with the Romex and asked if I had messed around
with the tone controls."

Are you claiming your perception report to be an exception to the
listening alone benchmark tests which do not support differences being
heard in wire? I do however bow to your wife, when the "my wife
heard..."
metric is evoked, it is a sure discussion stopper and the matter is
settled. "

Bromo

On 5/14/04 5:41 PM, in article k2bpc.2981$qA.292466@attbi_s51,
" wrote:

Odds are many/all of the brands you list are made by belden wire company.

Cardas makes their own wire, according to their brochures. Most other cable
companies buy it from cardas, belden or a few other sources.

They do not have a text copy of the brochure on the website. However a search
of the website finds no mention of manufacturing (in the sense of drawing wire)
or responses to search queries such as 'manufacturing', 'manufacturing
facilities' , 'maunufacturing locations' etc.

In discussion of their "OEM" products nothing is mentioned about the
manufacture of wire. Indeed "most" of the pieces are said to have been
'developed' by some one else.

" Cardas uses the finest materials in the manufacturer of its OEM products,
including: billet eutectic brass, billet ultra pure copper and billet 6061-T6,
or 7075-T6 aluminum. In addition to bare metal components, Rhodium, Gold,
Silver and other plating may be specified. Many of the designs are unique, some
are even patented. Cardas is concerned with the sonic performance of each OEM
part and how it functions mechanically for the component manufacturer. Some
design details include: female RCAs that tighten from outside of the chassis,
patented binding posts which are soldered while outside the cabinet, non
shorting RCA Caps that can be used on both amplifiers and preamplifiers,
cartridge clips with Beryllium copper tension springs for a sure, well damped
contact. Some of the pieces in this catalogue were originally designed by
George Cardas and Mike Colver for George's personal use, but most were
developed to meet the specific needs of industry manufacturers. Any of these
parts can be modified, when ordered in quantity, with different materials and
plating. If you don't find what you need, Cardas will be glad to work with you
on a design that meets your needs."

You have just delineated the major problem that psychology has today.
Because the
theoretical is needed to make daily decisons and science has not been
able to keep up,
the discipline has been parelyzed . There is a point everyday where you
just have to make a decision
without those comforting skirts of science to hide behind.

chung wrote:

Bromo wrote:

On 5/16/04 1:39 PM, in article , "chung"
wrote:

Bromo wrote:

On 5/15/04 3:38 PM, in article ,
" wrote:

"I have kimber 4's, 16ga. zip cord and Romex 10 ga. I do notice
fairly
substantial changes between all three - mostly with bass articulation,
bass
level and timing in my speakers."
Why do you think your perception report is an exception to the
listening
alone benchmark testing which finds no difference?

I hear what others say they have done. I have not witnessed the test
nor
have I audited them. Nor do I wish to.
After the flame wars on this group - I went and did my experiment and
found
a difference. Period.


So, did your experiment include simple freqeuncy response measurements?
Or controlling for bias?


Nope - no measurements. I am not claiming any kind of differences as an
engineer. I am claiming differences based upon listening to my system
after
the change. My wife, who was not aware of the mucking about came in
after I
set it back up with the Romex and asked if I had messed around with
the tone
controls.


Well, sooner or later, the wife/partner/child/innocent-bystander always
shows up in these anecdotes . My guess is that you were playing at
different volume levels.


I found it rather amazing that as an EE, you found differences between
2 cables in "bass articulation, bass level and timing", and yet have no
interest in further confirming your observations via measurements and
trying to understand why.


My job here was not professional, but as a listener to confirm or deny
if a
change could be made to the sound of a hifi system with cables -
something
quick and dirty that I could figure out in a few minutes.


You figured out that there was a change, yet you did not try to figure
out why there could be a change?


I do not feel the need to go further in the context of this group - and
don't want to detract from my day job.


OK. But now that you know that cables make a difference in bass
response, isn't that knowledge going to affect the way you do your
measurements in your day job? I mean, how can you trust your
measurements, and how do you know the cables you use in your
measurements do not affect those measurements? I mean, if bass response
can be affected, nothing can be trusted with those darned cables or
wires!


Aren't you curious as to why two cables can
have different bass responses, after correcting for possible level
differences? After all, it can't be the inductance or the capacitance
of the cable, if we are talking bass, right?


Of course I am curious - and if I get enough time I may try to figure
it out
- but I alos work 60+ hours a week so have more interest in relaxing and
listening to my music than taking on yet another test, measurement and
simulation exercise.

It seems also, that a lot of the folks around here spend a lot of time
trying to "debunk" the observations (hich again I am curious about as
well -
the need to do that in a forum that will generate no enlightenment
with that
sort of behavior)


Well, if you could figure out why those cables make a change in bass
response, many people here will be extremely interested. In fact, you
may even win a Nobel prize....


As it seems that this thread is getting out of hand, and I seem to be the
only guy holding this side of it - lord help me that I heard differences,
since that is Not Correct - I will have to rethink continuing further.


That's how science moves forward. Make careful measurements, and try to
figure out why some measurements do not agree with current theory.
That's how we find out if current theory is wrong.

On 5/16/04 8:02 PM, in article ,
" wrote:

There have been several tests done, a benchmark by which to compare all
claims and reports that differences can be heard in wire. To date there
are no differences by listening alone. When the person listening didn't
know which wire was being tested all previous reports of difference
disappeared, this supports the view that the differences occured in the
perception process of the brain and were not in the signal when it
reached

Which test are those? References, please. If we are to make progress in
extinguishing malarky we have to have a baseline other than some alluded to
"benchmark tests"

I am perfectly willing to admit that I may have got something wrong -
especially if we can figure out a root cause to observation that
contradicts, but you HAVE to provide credible sources.

After all, it does not sound that you have performed these tests - in fact
without sources, you may be as you accuse - but the opposite stance. Istead
of a "golden ear" perchance a "tin ear?"

On 5/16/04 7:37 PM, in article YWSpc.11464$gr.1000496@attbi_s52, "chung"
wrote:

I am - but I freely admit that I am not an expert on cables - but am
perfectly comfortable specifying coaxial or twsited wire cables for my
designs - which is not audio.


You believe that carrying audio signals is a more difficult task for
cables and wires, than carrying RF signals? You think that the way you
model or understand your cables at RF frequencies would not apply at audio?

I really don't know since these solve two very different problems. Since we
directly modulate though our ears after these signals go through a
transducer - I think in a lot of ways we're caught in a trap.

If you ever saw the "Final Fantasy" movie - you saw the computer animation -
possibly the best animation on the screen yet in attempts to be realistic
the very minor unrealistic items were very noticeable to me and detracted
from the experience, though in portions, you could forget breifly this was a
cartoon. This is the essence of hifi in my opinion. The closer you get to
perection, the more glaring the imperfections become.

If you are walking down a street and hear music come from a window, you can
immediately tell if it is live or from a speaker - this simple exercise
tells me we have not licked the problem of sound reproduction yet. We may
argue about cables and speakers, amplifiers and such - but the basic
realness is like that movie - you can forget at times, but it is but a
cartoon of the real thing.

If you then watch Shrek - you can get engrossed in the movie even though the
figures are not realistic - the story carries it, and the very cartooney
methods somehow allow the suspension of disbelief a bit easier. I think
this is a happy place where most hifi systems end up - a cartoon that is
gross enough that attention to detail is meaningless and minor changes can
be made (amplifier, speaker wire, etc) without substantially impaction
things.

I think this is the esence of the trap of the audiophile - and the source of
a lot of confusion (if I haven't been to confusing myself).

On 5/16/04 8:08 PM, in article ,
" wrote:

"Nope - no measurements. I am not claiming any kind of differences as
an
engineer. I am claiming differences based upon listening to my system
after the change. My wife, who was not aware of the mucking about came
in
after I set it back up with the Romex and asked if I had messed around
with the tone controls."

Are you claiming your perception report to be an exception to the
listening alone benchmark tests which do not support differences being
heard in wire? I do however bow to your wife, when the "my wife
heard..."
metric is evoked, it is a sure discussion stopper and the matter is
settled. "

I am saying what I said - that I heard a difference.

No more, no less.

Heh - I have been married for more than 10 years - I suspect that you are
married as well - and understand the SO factor, especially in the matters of
hifi..... :-)

On 5/16/04 8:05 PM, in article , "chung"
wrote:

Personal obervatins ARE relevant. What others claim, I would believe based
upon faith - no matter what scientific claims.

So if someone claims that green marker pens change the sound from the
CD, you would believe him? What about your years of professional
training? What if your professional training does not agree with those
claims?

If the person is happy with their green marker - I figure that I shouldn't
rain on their parade if it is a matter of hobby. Life is too short to tell
people they are wrong in this sort of matter. As I have not put a green
marker to my CD's I do not have a personal basis to judge (nor do I wish to
have one of those) - though would find it hard to understand if it were the
marker or some other variable. But for me to believe or disbelieve is a
matter of faith unless I have performed the experiments.

Taking the word of others is a faith based act - when you believe them or
disbelieve them - again it is faith. You may TRUST that a study or other
found nothing - but as a scientific type your first and last reference has
to be personal observation. If you disagree with something that people tend
to believe through some sort of study - and your observation seems to
contradict the results of someone else - if you desire to push forward the
state of the art, you would be obligated to figure out WHY you disagree. If
it is a hobby as you have children to raise, a mortgage to pay and work to
do as an employee to someone else, you figure out what works for you best
empirically, and go with it.