I am renting space in an industrial facility in PA, USA known as a
local "incubator" for small business. Rent is good, neighbours are
great, several cool reverb chambers around, lots of space, life is
good.

I have 3 rooms (1=control room, 2=drum/live room, 3=isobooths/workshop
area). The electrical panel is a 225 amp, 120/208v, 3phase, 4wire,
SquareD box. It is labelled "LP13" and right next to it is a much
bigger box labelled "PP2" which is locked. So, "PP2" feeds the 3phase
power into "LP13". "LP13" in turn feeds the vaious lights and outlets
in my space.

After thoroughly analyzing inside the box, I have learned that there
used to be six 3-phase machines like "Chiller" and "Grinder" etc.
Niow they are unused and terminate with covered 4" junction boxes.
The various 120v outlets are split up amongst the 3 phases. Some
outlets are on the blue phase, some outlets are on the red phase and
some outlets are on the black phase.

I just moved some wires around so that all fluorescent lights,
fridges, heaters, internet computers etc are on the black or red
phases and the blue phase is completely unused EXCEPT the two 120v
circuits that I will use for all audio gear.

I did a deja search to see if this was good and I got mixed answers.
Some people have said that splitting a 3phase set-up into 3 different
120v systems is fine as long as all grounding is done properly, and
some people said not to do it, but to get a single phase service run
in. I will use it like it is now until someone convinces me not to.

At this point my biggest concern is... I am wondering what happens
when I connect the internet computer (black phase) to the audio
computer (blue phase) when I wanna listen to the internet radio over
the good speakers. I'll send the audio balanced, but with the grounds
connected on both sides. (Mackie 1202 XLR sending(blackphase) -- RME
multiface TRS input receiving(bluephase)).

All my grounding is done properly with no lifting of anykind!!
Any words of advice or wisdom?

thx,
frenchy

they call me frenchy wrote:
I am renting space in an industrial facility in PA, USA known as a
local "incubator" for small business. Rent is good, neighbours are
great, several cool reverb chambers around, lots of space, life is
good.

I have 3 rooms (1=control room, 2=drum/live room,
3=isobooths/workshop
area). The electrical panel is a 225 amp, 120/208v, 3phase, 4wire,
SquareD box. It is labelled "LP13" and right next to it is a much
bigger box labelled "PP2" which is locked. So, "PP2" feeds the
3phase
power into "LP13". "LP13" in turn feeds the vaious lights and
outlets
in my space.

After thoroughly analyzing inside the box, I have learned that there
used to be six 3-phase machines like "Chiller" and "Grinder" etc.
Niow they are unused and terminate with covered 4" junction boxes.
The various 120v outlets are split up amongst the 3 phases. Some
outlets are on the blue phase, some outlets are on the red phase and
some outlets are on the black phase.

I just moved some wires around so that all fluorescent lights,
fridges, heaters, internet computers etc are on the black or red
phases and the blue phase is completely unused EXCEPT the two 120v
circuits that I will use for all audio gear.

I did a deja search to see if this was good and I got mixed answers.
Some people have said that splitting a 3phase set-up into 3 different
120v systems is fine as long as all grounding is done properly, and
some people said not to do it, but to get a single phase service run
in. I will use it like it is now until someone convinces me not to.

At this point my biggest concern is... I am wondering what happens
when I connect the internet computer (black phase) to the audio
computer (blue phase) when I wanna listen to the internet radio over
the good speakers. I'll send the audio balanced, but with the
grounds
connected on both sides. (Mackie 1202 XLR sending(blackphase) -- RME
multiface TRS input receiving(bluephase)).

All my grounding is done properly with no lifting of anykind!!
Any words of advice or wisdom?

thx,
frenchy


You should be ok as long as you have all your stuff on a common ground.

And don't unbalance the load on the phases too too much.
Where in PA are you, I'm in the Philly burbs.

Mark

On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 20:50:22 -0500, they call me frenchy
wrote:

I have 3 rooms (1=control room, 2=drum/live room, 3=isobooths/workshop
area). The electrical panel is a 225 amp, 120/208v, 3phase, 4wire,
SquareD box. It is labelled "LP13" and right next to it is a much
bigger box labelled "PP2" which is locked. So, "PP2" feeds the 3phase
power into "LP13". "LP13" in turn feeds the vaious lights and outlets
in my space. snip

PP = power panel LP = lighting panel

After thoroughly analyzing inside the box, I have learned that there
used to be six 3-phase machines like "Chiller" and "Grinder" etc.
Niow they are unused and terminate with covered 4" junction boxes.
The various 120v outlets are split up amongst the 3 phases. Some
outlets are on the blue phase, some outlets are on the red phase and
some outlets are on the black phase. snip

Must be more than 20 years old. The "black" phase is supposed to be
white. RED, WHITE, BLUE = A, B, C @ 208/220 VAC

I just moved some wires around so that all fluorescent lights,
fridges, heaters, internet computers etc are on the black or red
phases and the blue phase is completely unused EXCEPT the two 120v
circuits that I will use for all audio gear. snip

And, besides unbalancing the loads, just what is that supposed to
accomplish?

I did a deja search to see if this was good and I got mixed answers.
Some people have said that splitting a 3phase set-up into 3 different
120v systems is fine as long as all grounding is done properly, and
some people said not to do it, but to get a single phase service run
in. I will use it like it is now until someone convinces me not to. snip

Run a single phase service in...funny **** people come up with who are
ignorant about commercial/industrial power!

At this point my biggest concern is... I am wondering what happens
when I connect the internet computer (black phase) to the audio
computer (blue phase) when I wanna listen to the internet radio over
the good speakers. snip

Nothing.

I'll send the audio balanced, but with the grounds
connected on both sides. (Mackie 1202 XLR sending(blackphase) -- RME
multiface TRS input receiving(bluephase)). snip

Just what is this phobia about 3 phase power, anyway??

All my grounding is done properly with no lifting of anykind!!
Any words of advice or wisdom? snip

Yes. Put everything back the way you found it and refer power
scheduling to a qualified engineer next time.

Biggest crock heard..."gotta have stuff on different phases!" Yoo
hoo..go look out back...see that big pad mount or those two or three
pots hanging on that pole? It's a delta/wye transformer
arrangement..they're all interconnected anyway through the windings
anyway...durrrr.

dB
IBEW Local 11 and 1011

On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 20:50:22 -0500, they call me frenchy
wrote:

I did a deja search to see if this was good and I got mixed answers.
Some people have said that splitting a 3phase set-up into 3 different
120v systems is fine as long as all grounding is done properly, and
some people said not to do it, but to get a single phase service run
in. I will use it like it is now until someone convinces me not to.

You've GOT a single phase service. You've just got two more of them
as well.

CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect

On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 23:41:19 -0800, DeserTBoB
wrote:

Must be more than 20 years old. The "black" phase is supposed to be
white. RED, WHITE, BLUE = A, B, C @ 208/220 VAC
....
dB
IBEW Local 11 and 1011

Desert Bob,

I hope you don't mind fielding a dumb question from Canada, but I'm
confused by the new patriotic US wiring colours (oops, colors).

If WHITE is now used for Phase 2 in the US, what colour do you use for
neutral?

Or are you just pulling some poor amateur's leg?

Mike T., gullible Canuck

they call me frenchy wrote:

I am renting space in an industrial facility in PA, USA known as a
local "incubator" for small business. Rent is good, neighbours are
great, several cool reverb chambers around, lots of space, life is
good.

I have 3 rooms (1=control room, 2=drum/live room, 3=isobooths/workshop
area). The electrical panel is a 225 amp, 120/208v, 3phase, 4wire,
SquareD box. It is labelled "LP13" and right next to it is a much
bigger box labelled "PP2" which is locked. So, "PP2" feeds the 3phase
power into "LP13". "LP13" in turn feeds the vaious lights and outlets
in my space.

After thoroughly analyzing inside the box, I have learned that there
used to be six 3-phase machines like "Chiller" and "Grinder" etc.
Niow they are unused and terminate with covered 4" junction boxes.
The various 120v outlets are split up amongst the 3 phases. Some
outlets are on the blue phase, some outlets are on the red phase and
some outlets are on the black phase.

I just moved some wires around so that all fluorescent lights,
fridges, heaters, internet computers etc are on the black or red
phases and the blue phase is completely unused EXCEPT the two 120v
circuits that I will use for all audio gear.


Bad. You have unbalanced the load between the three phases. If you
have done enough of it, the power company will notice, and hit you with
abnormal usage charges. You also noticeably increase the fire hazard
of the facility, because of potential of transformer overload.
Hire a locally licensed electrician to come into your facility to do
things
correctly and safely.


I did a deja search to see if this was good and I got mixed answers.
Some people have said that splitting a 3phase set-up into 3 different
120v systems is fine as long as all grounding is done properly, and
some people said not to do it, but to get a single phase service run
in. I will use it like it is now until someone convinces me not to.


Splitting the phases has become, for reasons that escape me, since
it doesn't actually work, part of the mythology of recording. Go read up
on the pin 1 problem, which is what it is an attempt to resolve.


At this point my biggest concern is... I am wondering what happens
when I connect the internet computer (black phase) to the audio
computer (blue phase) when I wanna listen to the internet radio over
the good speakers. I'll send the audio balanced, but with the grounds
connected on both sides. (Mackie 1202 XLR sending(blackphase) -- RME
multiface TRS input receiving(bluephase)).

All my grounding is done properly with no lifting of anykind!!
Any words of advice or wisdom?

You have performed unlicensed electrical work in a property you do
not own, which is a violation of city law pretty much everywhere in the
US. I bet you didn't pull an electrical work permit either. That is good

for another hefty fine. Wouldn't surprise me if this also violates your
lease agreement with the incubator facility.

Get the yamaha sound reinforcement handbook. Hire a locally licensed
electrician that is approved by the landlord and have him/her read the
chapters on grounds and power. Then have them put your place back
into compliance with code and suitable for your desired uses. You want
isolated ground receptacles, mostly.

--Dale

they call me frenchy wrote:

I am renting space in an industrial facility in PA, USA known as a
local "incubator" for small business. Rent is good, neighbours are
great, several cool reverb chambers around, lots of space, life is
good.

I have 3 rooms (1=control room, 2=drum/live room, 3=isobooths/workshop
area). The electrical panel is a 225 amp, 120/208v, 3phase, 4wire,
SquareD box. It is labelled "LP13" and right next to it is a much
bigger box labelled "PP2" which is locked. So, "PP2" feeds the 3phase
power into "LP13". "LP13" in turn feeds the vaious lights and outlets
in my space.

After thoroughly analyzing inside the box, I have learned that there
used to be six 3-phase machines like "Chiller" and "Grinder" etc.
Niow they are unused and terminate with covered 4" junction boxes.
The various 120v outlets are split up amongst the 3 phases. Some
outlets are on the blue phase, some outlets are on the red phase and
some outlets are on the black phase.

I just moved some wires around so that all fluorescent lights,
fridges, heaters, internet computers etc are on the black or red
phases and the blue phase is completely unused EXCEPT the two 120v
circuits that I will use for all audio gear.

Okay, it's not Black Magic.

What you've done is create a phase imbalance on your site. In
commercial power, the power company will charge you:

1. Extra for peak-hours usage--so all-night sessions aren't such a bad
thing.

2. Extra for imbalanced phases.

3. Extra for power factor much different from 1.

They'll happily burn you on items 2 and 3 they way you've set things up.

They put a SERIOUS amount of effort into finigaling what seem to be
teensy efficiency improvements . .until you realize they measure energy
in the billions of kWh.

Long story short, you need a licensed electrician and perhaps even a
consultation with a good EE who understands load balancing and the
special needs of audio.

There are all sorts of things you can do to improve your power factor
that are non-intuitive but which are routinely done in commercial power
installations.

Spend a bit of money now and save long-term.

Your land lord will appreciate your not doing unauthorized electrical
work as well.

On 26 Dec 2004 19:53:28 -0800, "Mark" wrote:
snip
You should be ok as long as you have all your stuff on a common ground.

And don't unbalance the load on the phases too too much.
Where in PA are you, I'm in the Philly burbs.

Mark

All the stuff is definitely on a common ground.

When I walked through the door for the 1st time, the phases were
already unbalanced by small things like outlets and fluorescent
lights.

It is amazing how different peoples responses are to this topic, some
people say it is OK and other people scream bloody murder.

I am in the opposite corner of PA, directly south of buffalo, just
crossed the border into PA.

thx,
frenchy

On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 23:41:19 -0800, DeserTBoB
wrote:

PP = power panel LP = lighting panel

thx!


I just moved some wires around so that all fluorescent lights,
fridges, heaters, internet computers etc are on the black or red
phases and the blue phase is completely unused EXCEPT the two 120v
circuits that I will use for all audio gear. snip

And, besides unbalancing the loads, just what is that supposed to
accomplish?

Minimize voltage sag on my DAW when my little mini-fridge kicks in on
the other phase. Also, keep any electrical noise generated by the
fluorescent light ballasts on a different phase as well.


Run a single phase service in...funny **** people come up with who are
ignorant about commercial/industrial power!

So even though everything is working fine, you are saying that I
should prefer a single phase? OK, I will look into how much that
costs and if I have to cover it. Should it concern me that I will
then have heater blowers, fridges and fluorescent lights all on the
same phase then?....apparently not.


Just what is this phobia about 3 phase power, anyway??

Does learning really = phobia?


thx,
frenchy

On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 11:32:13 +0000, Laurence Payne
wrote:

You've GOT a single phase service. You've just got two more of them
as well.


I wish it were as simple as your answer!!!! If it is that simple,
then why are some people spitting fire with regards to this topic?

Some people are insisting that I should actually ask for a single
phase service, which completely contradicts your answer.

I am curious to see how much extra the power company charges me for
altering the phase balance by 200W worth of fluorescent lights that
are only on half the day.

thx,
frenchy

On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 20:36:16 GMT, Dale Farmer
wrote:

I just moved some wires around so that all fluorescent lights,
fridges, heaters, internet computers etc are on the black or red
phases and the blue phase is completely unused EXCEPT the two 120v
circuits that I will use for all audio gear.


Bad. You have unbalanced the load between the three phases. If you
have done enough of it, the power company will notice, and hit you with
abnormal usage charges. You also noticeably increase the fire hazard
of the facility, because of potential of transformer overload.
Hire a locally licensed electrician to come into your facility to do
things
correctly and safely.


I agree about your point to hire a pro to do it safely. With regard
to me causing an unbalanced load between the 3 phases....When I
stepped foot through the door for the 1st time (before renting), the
phases were unbalanced. Some outlets on one phase, some on another,
the heater blower on another. I moved 240w worth of fluorescent
lights from one phase to another. In the grand scheme of everything,
isnt this extremely minimal? If anything, I think my change caused
the 3 phases to be used more evenly. Maybe they should credit my
account?



Splitting the phases has become, for reasons that escape me, since
it doesn't actually work, part of the mythology of recording. Go read up
on the pin 1 problem, which is what it is an attempt to resolve.



Everything is working fine, so it actually does work, but I will get
the yamaha book as you suggest below.

thx,
frenchy

snip

they call me frenchy wrote:

I wish it were as simple as your answer!!!! If it is that simple,
then why are some people spitting fire with regards to this topic?

Perhaps because you obviously don't know very well what you're doing and
proper handling of electrical service(s) is important for things far
more serious than audio recording. There are times when one can
demonstrate intelligence by employing a professional.

--
ha

they call me frenchy wrote:
On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 20:36:16 GMT, Dale Farmer
wrote:

I just moved some wires around so that all fluorescent lights,
fridges, heaters, internet computers etc are on the black or red
phases and the blue phase is completely unused EXCEPT the two 120v
circuits that I will use for all audio gear.


Bad. You have unbalanced the load between the three phases. If
you
have done enough of it, the power company will notice, and hit you
with
abnormal usage charges. You also noticeably increase the fire
hazard
of the facility, because of potential of transformer overload.
Hire a locally licensed electrician to come into your facility
to do
things
correctly and safely.


I agree about your point to hire a pro to do it safely. With regard
to me causing an unbalanced load between the 3 phases....When I
stepped foot through the door for the 1st time (before renting), the
phases were unbalanced. Some outlets on one phase, some on another,
the heater blower on another. I moved 240w worth of fluorescent
lights from one phase to another. In the grand scheme of everything,
isnt this extremely minimal? If anything, I think my change caused
the 3 phases to be used more evenly. Maybe they should credit my
account?


Splitting the phases has become, for reasons that escape me,
since
it doesn't actually work, part of the mythology of recording. Go
read up
on the pin 1 problem, which is what it is an attempt to resolve.



Everything is working fine, so it actually does work, but I will get
the yamaha book as you suggest below.

thx,
frenchy

snip

Yeah, I was cautioning against creating a LARGE unblance in the phases.
240 Watts is not large.

But on the other hand, I don't think you helped anything either by
rewiring everything.

Mark

On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 17:37:20 -0500, they call me frenchy
wrote:

I agree about your point to hire a pro to do it safely. With regard
to me causing an unbalanced load between the 3 phases....When I
stepped foot through the door for the 1st time (before renting), the
phases were unbalanced. Some outlets on one phase, some on another,
the heater blower on another. snip

That's called a "balanced load."

I moved 240w worth of fluorescent
lights from one phase to another. In the grand scheme of everything,
isnt this extremely minimal? snip

Keep your lighting load spread among all three phases to keep power
factor in line.

If anything, I think my change caused
the 3 phases to be used more evenly. Maybe they should credit my
account? snip

Bad thinking. When one is balancing panels, one has to consider load
AND power factor. Putting a bunch of flourescent ballasts all on one
phase is NOT good practice, and it you have load balance/power
factor/peak metering, you'll get tagged by your utility.

Everything is working fine, so it actually does work, but I will get
the yamaha book as you suggest below. snip

Forget the "Yama-ha-ha-ha" book...you're dealing with power now.
Restore the panels the way you found them at the very least, or get a
licensed engineer to do a load schedule for you. Your statement
reminds me of some adled-brained gee-tawr player years ago, who said,
after connecting the 16 ohm winding of an output transformer to an
effective 2 ohm load, "Everything sounds fine!"...not long before the
transformer fried.

dB

they call me frenchy writes:

When I walked through the door for the 1st time, the phases were
already unbalanced by small things like outlets and fluorescent
lights.

All the outlet in a single room should be on the SAME phase. This way
you only get to eat phase to ground when you dick with it, rather than
possibly phase to phase. This is a common saftey requirment. For
recording and studio instalations you should give serious thought to
having the entire studio/control-room etc on a single phase due to the
wiring between the two.

Oh, and mark the GPOs so you know for sure which circuit they are on.
Ground for EVERY outlet should be a given, unless you are tired of
breathing.

--
Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd.,
+61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda.
West Australia 6076
comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot
Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.
EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.

On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 15:04:57 GMT, Mike T. wrote:

I hope you don't mind fielding a dumb question from Canada snip

I don't know of any "dumb questions" from Canada. After all, they
CERTAINLY must be smarter that we!

... but I'm
confused by the new patriotic US wiring colours (oops, colors). snip

Not new at all.

If WHITE is now used for Phase 2 in the US, what colour do you use for
neutral? snip

Slate or grey.

The code doesn't require these color tags, by the way...a major fault
of code. The only requirements, per se, are to mark a "wild leg" of a
grounded leg delta as being orange, and that "grounded conductors" be
marked white or slate/grey. Their requirements also vary with
conductor size, another confusion. Beware of white ALWAYS meaning
neutral to the exclusion of all others. For example,
brown/orange/yellow always denotes 277/480 VAC, but white NEVER
denotes neutral at that voltage. In 277 single phase applications,
slate/grey is ALWAYS neutral, never white. However, in derived 117
from a 208/4 panel, you can have a single phase run from any phase and
have the ground return as white. In 240/3 "wild leg" deltas, you'd
see red/ORANGE/blue/white, the orange being the "wild leg," with white
being the center tapped neutral, grounded at the service entrance.
The "wild leg" is always the B phase, also.

The NEC is loose and sloppy, inflitrated as it has been over the years
by the interests of manufacturers, wholesalers and contractors, rather
than to promote uniformity and safety above all other
concerns...something it was charged to do in the first place. How
typically American!

dB

On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 17:37:20 -0500, they call me frenchy
wrote:

I agree about your point to hire a pro to do it safely. With regard
to me causing an unbalanced load between the 3 phases....When I
stepped foot through the door for the 1st time (before renting), the
phases were unbalanced. Some outlets on one phase, some on another,
the heater blower on another. I moved 240w worth of fluorescent
lights from one phase to another. In the grand scheme of everything,
isnt this extremely minimal? If anything, I think my change caused
the 3 phases to be used more evenly. Maybe they should credit my
account?


Nope. Remember I said, "Non intuitive."

It is common (iirc--I may be confabulating, which is why you should hire
an EE or an electrician and not an embedded systems engineer who's a
frustrated musician)

First, three phase is, in general a Very Good Thing. 3ph motors are
cheaper and smaller for equivalant HP. You want all your big
motors--blowers, AC compressors, etc, running on 3ph. You might even
consider getting a three phase refridgerator.

Second, fluroescent lights should be distributed across all three
phases. They provide a nice power factor correction to the loads of
your motors.

PLEASE, don't listen to us. Remember, we're all a bunch of well-trained
St. Bernards, and we've been nipping from those barrels we carry on our
collars--don't bet your life or your insurance premium on your advice.

Hire an electrician and do it right.

they call me frenchy wrote:

I did a deja search to see if this was good and I got mixed answers.
Some people have said that splitting a 3phase set-up into 3 different
120v systems is fine as long as all grounding is done properly, and
some people said not to do it, but to get a single phase service run
in. I will use it like it is now until someone convinces me not to.

If the three-phase stuff has big three-phase loads on it, this is bad.
If you basically have a huge three-phase service all to yourself, it's
fine. And if you are running the phases unevenly loaded, that's fine
too since you have such a tiny total load compared with the load the
service is designed for.

At this point my biggest concern is... I am wondering what happens
when I connect the internet computer (black phase) to the audio
computer (blue phase) when I wanna listen to the internet radio over
the good speakers. I'll send the audio balanced, but with the grounds
connected on both sides. (Mackie 1202 XLR sending(blackphase) -- RME
multiface TRS input receiving(bluephase)).

The same thing that happens in your house when you have the computer on
one leg and the audio system on the other leg.

All my grounding is done properly with no lifting of anykind!!
Any words of advice or wisdom?

If there is a noise problem, lift the signal grounds. And stop worrying
so much.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

they call me frenchy wrote:
On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 11:32:13 +0000, Laurence Payne
wrote:

You've GOT a single phase service. You've just got two more of them
as well.

I wish it were as simple as your answer!!!! If it is that simple,
then why are some people spitting fire with regards to this topic?

Because, if you were pulling a couple hundred amps, it would be a serious
problem to unbalance the loads. Since you are probably pulling ten or
twenty amps from a service designed for a few hundred amps, the unbalance
isn't that big a deal. But lots of folks here have been in situations where
it is a big deal (and it's important for you to make sure you keep out of it).

Some people are insisting that I should actually ask for a single
phase service, which completely contradicts your answer.

If you ask for a single phase service, the power company will shut off one of
your lines and shift the other so it's 180' away instead of 120' away from the
first leg. This doesn't help anything. BUT, they will change your metering
and billing, and that might help a lot in some cases. Find out if it helps
in yours.

I am curious to see how much extra the power company charges me for
altering the phase balance by 200W worth of fluorescent lights that
are only on half the day.

Ask the power company what the charges are. They will have a minimum current
imbalance point at which they start getting angry. It is probably listed on
your bill and if it isn't, a phone call should get you a rate card. Then
tote up the loads on each phase and see where things fall.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 00:14:26 GMT, (hank alrich)
wrote:

they call me frenchy wrote:

I wish it were as simple as your answer!!!! If it is that simple,
then why are some people spitting fire with regards to this topic?

Perhaps because you obviously don't know very well what you're doing and
proper handling of electrical service(s) is important for things far
more serious than audio recording. There are times when one can
demonstrate intelligence by employing a professional.

I always respect your answers/opinions. In life, people must decide
between trying to learn to do something themselves and just hiring
someone else to do it for them. I suppose that topics this serious
(power) are not to be "learnt" in a public forum...and if you choose
to do it yourself, you get formally certified, period.

Indeed I will be contacting the power company to have them recommend
which way to proceed. It has been very informative and interesting
seeing everyones stance on this.

thx,
frenchy

On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 15:10:45 +0800, wrote:

they call me frenchy writes:

When I walked through the door for the 1st time, the phases were
already unbalanced by small things like outlets and fluorescent
lights.

All the outlet in a single room should be on the SAME phase. This way
you only get to eat phase to ground when you dick with it, rather than
possibly phase to phase. This is a common saftey requirment. For
recording and studio instalations you should give serious thought to
having the entire studio/control-room etc on a single phase due to the
wiring between the two.

Oh, and mark the GPOs so you know for sure which circuit they are on.
Ground for EVERY outlet should be a given, unless you are tired of
breathing.


The interesting thing is that before I even started renting the space
there already existed in one room an outlet on the red phase and
another outlet on the black phase.

I respect all those who are yelling at me and telling me I am a fool
for messing around, but honestly it sounds like I am actually making
things safer by opening this can of worms, as opposed to just plugging
in blind on multiple phases the way it WAS set-up before moving in.

Oh, and what the hell are GPOs?

thx,
frenchy

On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 15:21:21 GMT, "U-CDK_CHARLES\\Charles" "Charles
wrote:

On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 17:37:20 -0500, they call me frenchy

First, three phase is, in general a Very Good Thing. 3ph motors are
cheaper and smaller for equivalant HP. You want all your big
motors--blowers, AC compressors, etc, running on 3ph. You might even
consider getting a three phase refridgerator. snip

Amen. Running efficiency of 3 phase motors is always higher than any
single phase equivalent.

Second, fluroescent lights should be distributed across all three
phases. They provide a nice power factor correction to the loads of
your motors. snip

Exactly. What he's done is screw up his power factor, so that one
phase will be closer to unity than the others...something that drives
utilities nuts, and will, if the local distribution has an automatic
cap bank nearby, will cause inexplicable voltage perterbations as the
cap bank "hunts" back and forth, trying to correct the imbalance.

Hire an electrician and do it right. snip

....and by electician, he doesn't mean some fly-by-nighter working out
of the back of his station wagon, either. Those guys usually know
little (if anything) more than you do. Get a good union contractor,
do it right the first time.

dB

On 28 Dec 2004 12:18:40 -0500, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

they call me frenchy wrote:
On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 11:32:13 +0000, Laurence Payne
wrote:

You've GOT a single phase service. You've just got two more of them
as well.

I wish it were as simple as your answer!!!! If it is that simple,
then why are some people spitting fire with regards to this topic?

Because, if you were pulling a couple hundred amps, it would be a serious
problem to unbalance the loads. Since you are probably pulling ten or
twenty amps from a service designed for a few hundred amps, the unbalance
isn't that big a deal. But lots of folks here have been in situations where
it is a big deal (and it's important for you to make sure you keep out of it).

Some people are insisting that I should actually ask for a single
phase service, which completely contradicts your answer.

If you ask for a single phase service, the power company will shut off one of
your lines and shift the other so it's 180' away instead of 120' away from the
first leg. This doesn't help anything. BUT, they will change your metering
and billing, and that might help a lot in some cases. Find out if it helps
in yours.

I am curious to see how much extra the power company charges me for
altering the phase balance by 200W worth of fluorescent lights that
are only on half the day.

Ask the power company what the charges are. They will have a minimum current
imbalance point at which they start getting angry. It is probably listed on
your bill and if it isn't, a phone call should get you a rate card. Then
tote up the loads on each phase and see where things fall.
--scott


Scott,
Thank you very much for giving me a straight informative answer
instead of flaming me. I will contact the power company and I will
hire a professional to do any additional wiring. This does not
preclude me from learning!!!...

So, having said that, lets say that they cancel one of the phases,
like you say above and make the 2 phases 180deg apart instead of
120deg......in your opinion, will a studio owner benefit in any way by
running refridgerators, heater blowers and fluorescent lights off one
phase and studio equipment off the other?

thx,
frenchy

On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 15:21:21 GMT, "U-CDK_CHARLES\\Charles" "Charles
wrote:

On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 17:37:20 -0500, they call me frenchy
wrote:

I agree about your point to hire a pro to do it safely. With regard
to me causing an unbalanced load between the 3 phases....When I
stepped foot through the door for the 1st time (before renting), the
phases were unbalanced. Some outlets on one phase, some on another,
the heater blower on another. I moved 240w worth of fluorescent
lights from one phase to another. In the grand scheme of everything,
isnt this extremely minimal? If anything, I think my change caused
the 3 phases to be used more evenly. Maybe they should credit my
account?


Nope. Remember I said, "Non intuitive."

It is common (iirc--I may be confabulating, which is why you should hire
an EE or an electrician and not an embedded systems engineer who's a
frustrated musician)

First, three phase is, in general a Very Good Thing. 3ph motors are
cheaper and smaller for equivalant HP. You want all your big
motors--blowers, AC compressors, etc, running on 3ph. You might even
consider getting a three phase refridgerator.

Second, fluroescent lights should be distributed across all three
phases. They provide a nice power factor correction to the loads of
your motors.

PLEASE, don't listen to us. Remember, we're all a bunch of well-trained
St. Bernards, and we've been nipping from those barrels we carry on our
collars--don't bet your life or your insurance premium on your advice.

Hire an electrician and do it right.


thank you for your input and I agree.
The frustrating part is that most licensed electricians in backwoods,
USA dont know a thing about studio power requirements. I am not
saying that I do either, but I am trying to get my ducks in a row
before paying some licensed guy alot of $$ to come in and do things
wrong for a studio, but up to code. In an ideal world, I will be able
to answer all his questions about why I need things a certain way and
then pay him to do it.

thx,
frenchy

On 28 Dec 2004 11:44:08 -0500, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

If the three-phase stuff has big three-phase loads on it, this is bad.
If you basically have a huge three-phase service all to yourself, it's
fine. And if you are running the phases unevenly loaded, that's fine
too since you have such a tiny total load compared with the load the
service is designed for.

Indeed that is the case. I have a huge 3 phase service with nothing
on it save for a couple fluorescent "house lights" that are off during
recording, some christmas mood lights, about a 100watts total of audio
gear when idling and a mini fridge. The heater blower kicks on
everyonce in a while and I just climbed up to see that it is rated at
115v/1A which is pretty small too. I think I use the most power when
a guitar player brings in a marshall stack.


At this point my biggest concern is... I am wondering what happens
when I connect the internet computer (black phase) to the audio
computer (blue phase) when I wanna listen to the internet radio over
the good speakers. I'll send the audio balanced, but with the grounds
connected on both sides. (Mackie 1202 XLR sending(blackphase) -- RME
multiface TRS input receiving(bluephase)).

The same thing that happens in your house when you have the computer on
one leg and the audio system on the other leg.

All my grounding is done properly with no lifting of anykind!!
Any words of advice or wisdom?

If there is a noise problem, lift the signal grounds. And stop worrying
so much.
--scott

amen.
thx again,
frenchy

they call me frenchy wrote:
On 28 Dec 2004 11:44:08 -0500, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

If the three-phase stuff has big three-phase loads on it, this is bad.
If you basically have a huge three-phase service all to yourself, it's
fine. And if you are running the phases unevenly loaded, that's fine
too since you have such a tiny total load compared with the load the
service is designed for.

Indeed that is the case. I have a huge 3 phase service with nothing
on it save for a couple fluorescent "house lights" that are off during
recording, some christmas mood lights, about a 100watts total of audio
gear when idling and a mini fridge. The heater blower kicks on
everyonce in a while and I just climbed up to see that it is rated at
115v/1A which is pretty small too. I think I use the most power when
a guitar player brings in a marshall stack.

Just get rid of the fluorescents. Not only are they a nasty load that
can make for trouble if you have a lot of them, not only are they common
sources of noise leaking into audio signals, but they also make people
look green.

You cannot be mellow when you look green.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

they call me frenchy wrote:

I always respect your answers/opinions.

Y0u fool!! g

In life, people must decide
between trying to learn to do something themselves and just hiring
someone else to do it for them. I suppose that topics this serious
(power) are not to be "learnt" in a public forum...and if you choose
to do it yourself, you get formally certified, period.

It's a groovy thing to want to learn, and sometimes a great way to do
that is to look over the shoulder of a pro and ask some questions, too.

Indeed I will be contacting the power company to have them recommend
which way to proceed.

Put it all back the way is used to be before you make that call.

It has been very informative and interesting
seeing everyones stance on this.

Understand that people are interested in helping you not wake up dead.
g

--
ha

On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 13:54:27 -0500, they call me frenchy
wrote:

So, having said that, lets say that they cancel one of the phases, snip

Doesn't work that way. You either have single phase or three phase
service. There's no "cancelling a phase."

like you say above and make the 2 phases 180deg apart instead of
120deg......in your opinion, will a studio owner benefit in any way by
running refridgerators, heater blowers and fluorescent lights off one
phase and studio equipment off the other? snip

If you're in an industrial park, you are a renter, and the service
provided is part of the rental property. An owner of such property
would be loathe to remove 3 phase service, only to have the next
tenant require it.

Just get your loads balanced and be done with it. Also, if you have
any rotating machinery higher than about 3 HP (HVAC, etc), specify 3
phase. The cost savings over time will be considerable.

dB

In article writes:

I always respect your answers/opinions. In life, people must decide
between trying to learn to do something themselves and just hiring
someone else to do it for them.

Sometimes the best way to learn is to hire someone with experience,
discuss the project with him before you hire him, watch what he does,
and ask questions. You'll get the job done and you'll get an education
in the process. With something like electrical power distribution,
chances are you aren't going to be doing it often enough to warrant
learning all you need to know. But what you should learn is enough to
know that you're asking the right questions, getting the right
answers, and getting satisfactory results.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

they call me frenchy wrote:

On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 15:21:21 GMT, "U-CDK_CHARLES\\Charles" "Charles
wrote:

On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 17:37:20 -0500, they call me frenchy
wrote:

I agree about your point to hire a pro to do it safely. With regard
to me causing an unbalanced load between the 3 phases....When I
stepped foot through the door for the 1st time (before renting), the
phases were unbalanced. Some outlets on one phase, some on another,
the heater blower on another. I moved 240w worth of fluorescent
lights from one phase to another. In the grand scheme of everything,
isnt this extremely minimal? If anything, I think my change caused
the 3 phases to be used more evenly. Maybe they should credit my
account?


Nope. Remember I said, "Non intuitive."

It is common (iirc--I may be confabulating, which is why you should hire
an EE or an electrician and not an embedded systems engineer who's a
frustrated musician)

First, three phase is, in general a Very Good Thing. 3ph motors are
cheaper and smaller for equivalant HP. You want all your big
motors--blowers, AC compressors, etc, running on 3ph. You might even
consider getting a three phase refridgerator.

Second, fluroescent lights should be distributed across all three
phases. They provide a nice power factor correction to the loads of
your motors.

PLEASE, don't listen to us. Remember, we're all a bunch of well-trained
St. Bernards, and we've been nipping from those barrels we carry on our
collars--don't bet your life or your insurance premium on your advice.

Hire an electrician and do it right.

thank you for your input and I agree.
The frustrating part is that most licensed electricians in backwoods,
USA dont know a thing about studio power requirements. I am not
saying that I do either, but I am trying to get my ducks in a row
before paying some licensed guy alot of $$ to come in and do things
wrong for a studio, but up to code. In an ideal world, I will be able
to answer all his questions about why I need things a certain way and
then pay him to do it.

thx,
frenchy

Another thing to remember. The electrical code is MINIMUM safe
standards. If someone is bragging that their work exactly meets code,
then they are working to minimum standard. This is a warning sign.

--Dale

On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 20:16:17 GMT, Dale Farmer
wrote:

Another thing to remember. The electrical code is MINIMUM safe
standards. If someone is bragging that their work exactly meets code,
then they are working to minimum standard. This is a warning sign. snip

Exactly. "Work to code" fly-by-nighters and scabs are usually the
most dangerous electricians out there. If code prevents them from
cutting corners somewhere, they'll invariably make it back somewhere
else where the code is silent...and the NEC is NOTORIOUSLY silent on
many issues having to do with safety and reliability.

dB

Another thing to remember. The electrical code is MINIMUM safe
standards.

MINIMUM to a society that sets them way too high to begin with.

If someone is bragging that their work exactly meets code,
then they are working to minimum standard.

If the code says you have to wear safety glasses everytime you hammer a nail,
then **** the code.

This is a warning sign.

I change all the electrical wall switches and outlets without ever having to
turn off the breaker first. Even if you make contact, it is just a little
jolt, nothing to worry about.

But thanks for making me have to pay for airbags and child safety bull**** in
my cars when I don't even have kids, and thanks for making adults have to
suffer with child proof caps and all that bull**** when we don't want or have
****ing kids!

Oh, and thanks for making ME pay for your brat's school and education too!
YOU want kids, then YOU pay for them, stop taking MY tax dollars to pay for
them!

Do I get any of YOUR tax dollars when I need medical treatment or want a
pet? Of course not.

Yet I am supposed to pay for your kids because you don't know how to use birth
control.

Truth wrote:

Do I get any of YOUR tax dollars when I need medical treatment or want a
pet? Of course not.

Your folks deserved free birth control.

--
ha

"hank alrich" wrote in message
. ..
Truth wrote:

Do I get any of YOUR tax dollars when I need medical treatment or want a
pet? Of course not.

Ever drive on an interstate highway?


Your folks deserved free birth control.

amen

dave


--
ha

On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 20:08:51 -0500, "Dave"
wrote:


"hank alrich" wrote in message
...
Truth wrote:

Do I get any of YOUR tax dollars when I need medical treatment or want a
pet? Of course not.

Ever drive on an interstate highway? snip

I like all this no-tax greedy ******* Repukes. They avail themselves
of free services from all levels of government every day, without
thinking about them. I say Bush close the Interstate Highway System
as a money saving gambit to pay for his over-the-top tax cuts for the
rich.

dB

"Truth" wrote in message
...

Do I get any of YOUR tax dollars when I need medical treatment or want a
pet? Of course not.

I dunno about pets, but if you're a veteran and get medical treatment at a
VA hospital, you certainly do get my tax dollars, and welcome to them. You
drive around on roads that my tax dollars helped pay for. You fly on planes
from airports my tax dollars helped finance. You're into my pocket for a
heap of money, in fact, and the only reason I don't bitch at you about it is
because I'm into your pocket in the same way, and my guess is we roughly
break even.

Peace,
Paul

"DeserTBoB" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 20:08:51 -0500, "Dave"
wrote:


"hank alrich" wrote in message
...
Truth wrote:

Do I get any of YOUR tax dollars when I need medical treatment or want
a
pet? Of course not.

Ever drive on an interstate highway? snip

I like all this no-tax greedy ******* Repukes. They avail themselves
of free services from all levels of government every day, without
thinking about them. I say Bush close the Interstate Highway System
as a money saving gambit to pay for his over-the-top tax cuts for the
rich.

Careful what you suggest, Bob. He might take you up on it.

Peace,
Paul

On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 17:19:48 GMT, "Paul Stamler"
wrote:

Careful what you suggest, Bob. He might take you up on it. snip

I know. The *******'s already after my Social Security and Medicare
for my old age, even though the fact shows Social Security is solvent
until at least 2038, more like 2041. What scam will be invent next???

dB

DeserTBoB wrote:

"Paul Stamler" wrote:

Careful what you suggest, Bob. He might take you up on it. snip

I know. The *******'s already after my Social Security and Medicare
for my old age, even though the fact shows Social Security is solvent
until at least 2038, more like 2041. What scam will be invent next???

The Prex wants to privatize Social Security because his friends from
Enron are presently unemployed. He figures they'd know how to handle it,
and this would get them off the street.

--
ha

On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 22:15:33 GMT, (hank alrich)
wrote:

The Prex wants to privatize Social Security because his friends from
Enron are presently unemployed. He figures they'd know how to handle it,
and this would get them off the street. snip

Like Paul says, "Shhhh...you're liable to give Shrub ideas!"

dB