[[email protected]]

Hi RATs!

http://v-cap.com/tefloncapacitors.html

never mind the mumbo-jumbo deluxe chatter:

These things sound better than her saying this is your lucky night ...

sell your Mother down the river and get what you really need: some new
capacitors.

Happy Ears!
Al Marcy

PS These sound too good for some people. You know who you are ...

[Prune]

No capacitors sounds as good as no capacitor. It's ALWAYS possible to
modify a circuit to make it fully DC-coupled.


wrote in news:1153465184.529998.299200
@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

Hi RATs!

http://v-cap.com/tefloncapacitors.html

never mind the mumbo-jumbo deluxe chatter:

These things sound better than her saying this is your lucky night ...

sell your Mother down the river and get what you really need: some new
capacitors.

Happy Ears!
Al Marcy

PS These sound too good for some people. You know who you are ...

[Jon Yaeger]

in article ,
at wrote on 7/21/06 2:59 AM:

Hi RATs!

http://v-cap.com/tefloncapacitors.html

never mind the mumbo-jumbo deluxe chatter:

These things sound better than her saying this is your lucky night ...

sell your Mother down the river and get what you really need: some new
capacitors.

Happy Ears!
Al Marcy

PS These sound too good for some people. You know who you are ...




Hi Al,

Your mother had better be a real hottie to fetch the prices needed for these
caps.

Say, I thought you'd be the very last one to advocate super-expensive parts.
Do they really make your ears that happy?

Jon

[[email protected]]

Hi RATs!

Mom was a hottie ... she was cremated a few years back

Why does spending the equivalent of a carton of cigarettes on a really
good sounding capacitor become an unholy expense which needs to be
guffawed as a crime against humanity by so many?

How much money are you planning on taking with you when you die?

My kid finished college, so, now I can finish the projects I started in
when I was in college.

I know, I could send your kid to college, but, then my kid would have
to fight him for a job. Sorry.

Besides, these caps sound really good ... *really* something, as Rev C.
put it.

Prices are only exciting once. Quality feels good as long as you can
perceive it.

Happy Ears!
Al




Jon Yaeger wrote:
Hi Al,

Your mother had better be a real hottie to fetch the prices needed for these
caps.

Say, I thought you'd be the very last one to advocate super-expensive parts.
Do they really make your ears that happy?

Jon

[Eeyore]

" wrote:

Hi RATs!

Mom was a hottie ... she was cremated a few years back

Why does spending the equivalent of a carton of cigarettes on a really
good sounding capacitor become an unholy expense which needs to be
guffawed as a crime against humanity by so many?

Because all film capacitors sound the same.

The only difference is marketing ********. And purchasers' gullibility.

Graham

[Eeyore]

" wrote:

Hi RATs!

Mom was a hottie ... she was cremated a few years back

Why does spending the equivalent of a carton of cigarettes on a really
good sounding capacitor become an unholy expense which needs to be
guffawed as a crime against humanity by so many?

Why do ppl buy girls' soiled knickers too ? That's what I'd like to know !

Graham

[[email protected]]

wrote:

Why does spending the equivalent of a carton of cigarettes on a really
good sounding capacitor become an unholy expense which needs to be
guffawed as a crime against humanity by so many?

Al:

I think you answered your own question using the Cigarette Analogy.

Film caps are film caps are film caps.... The rest is smoke, mirrors
and profit. LOTS of profit. No crime in it, but the fools are not the
producers of these goods.

In any case, you are entitled to do as you see fit. There are those who
purchase expensive Vodka when the entire point of that particular
alcohol delivery system is that it has no taste at all. After a certain
level of quality (no keytones, contaminants, residual oils or
chemicals), the rest is.... well... profit.

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA

[Eeyore]

" wrote:

wrote:

Why does spending the equivalent of a carton of cigarettes on a really
good sounding capacitor become an unholy expense which needs to be
guffawed as a crime against humanity by so many?

Al:

I think you answered your own question using the Cigarette Analogy.

Film caps are film caps are film caps.... The rest is smoke, mirrors
and profit. LOTS of profit. No crime in it, but the fools are not the
producers of these goods.

In any case, you are entitled to do as you see fit. There are those who
purchase expensive Vodka when the entire point of that particular
alcohol delivery system is that it has no taste at all. After a certain
level of quality (no keytones, contaminants, residual oils or
chemicals), the rest is.... well... profit.

Well......... You say that about vodka but I can taste a difference.

The best I've ever had was http://www.wyborowa.com/ from Poland

It has a truly smooth flavour - not chemical at all like Smirnoff for example.
It's actually nice to drink neat and very well chilled.

Graham

[Raymond Koonce]

snip

Well......... You say that about vodka but I can taste a difference.

The best I've ever had was http://www.wyborowa.com/ from Poland

It has a truly smooth flavour - not chemical at all like Smirnoff for example.
It's actually nice to drink neat and very well chilled.

Graham


Chopin is very good as well. Both potato vodkas. Maybe that's the key.

RK

[[email protected]]

Hi RATs!

OK, since all wise men know everything in Audio is BS, then anybody who
thinks they hear something is crazy. Fair enough.

And since all wise men know Vodka cannot have any beneficial effect on
your palate, by Law!, it is all BS, too. Good thinking.

And Music only sounds good if you think about it properly, just like
you do.

Sure. That line of reasoning is elegant in its simplicity

Now, please explain why we have to ask you what we may or may not hear?
Is it because nobody ever can have any fun unless you say so? Great
plan. Good luck.

If you are the only non-fool, we are mostly fools, so only you know
anything useful.

I don't mind. Why do you think I care if you do?

Happy Ears!
Al





wrote:
Film caps are film caps are film caps.... The rest is smoke, mirrors
and profit. LOTS of profit. No crime in it, but the fools are not the
producers of these goods.

In any case, you are entitled to do as you see fit. There are those who
purchase expensive Vodka when the entire point of that particular
alcohol delivery system is that it has no taste at all. After a certain
level of quality (no keytones, contaminants, residual oils or
chemicals), the rest is.... well... profit.

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA

[Eeyore]

" wrote:

Hi RATs!

OK, since all wise men know everything in Audio is BS, then anybody who
thinks they hear something is crazy. Fair enough.

You may be hearing 'something' but you've been brainwashed into thinking it's
about some nebulous unspecified kind of 'quality'

All capacitors have a tolerance on their value for instance. For film caps used
in audio are typically +- 5 or 10%

So, a 0.47uF cap may actually be 0.43 or 0.52 uF, worse still for 20% tolerance
part. If it's used in an appication that's particularly value sensitive like a
filter stage there will indeed be obvious differences in performance ( frequency
response most obviously ) that are easily measured such as turnover frequency
and slope. Of couse the uneducated hear a difference and jump to the conclusion
that their shiny new capacitor is *better*, because they know no better and of
course because that's what they've been told to think.


And since all wise men know Vodka cannot have any beneficial effect on
your palate, by Law!, it is all BS, too. Good thinking.

And Music only sounds good if you think about it properly, just like
you do.

Music can also sound better under the influence of certain substances, proving
beyond doubt that all human perception is subjective and fallible on a day to
day basis.


Sure. That line of reasoning is elegant in its simplicity

Now, please explain why we have to ask you what we may or may not hear?

Because you might be interested in the underlying science - which I can assure
you is the most effective way to first-class reproduction rather than Silly
Billy fiddling with components maybe ?


Is it because nobody ever can have any fun unless you say so? Great
plan. Good luck.

If you are the only non-fool, we are mostly fools, so only you know
anything useful.

I don't mind. Why do you think I care if you do?

If you're happy being a gullible fool, more power to you ! Spend more on those
magic components !

Graham

Pro-audio designer ( that's the stuff that *makes* the recordings you listen to
btw ) for 30 years

[GerryE123]

wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi RATs!

http://v-cap.com/tefloncapacitors.html

never mind the mumbo-jumbo deluxe chatter:

These things sound better than her saying this is your lucky night ...

sell your Mother down the river and get what you really need: some new
capacitors.

I have wanted to try a pair because everybody who has raves about them.
However, I can't get past the prices. Can someone explain to me why the
price goes up so significantly as the cap value increases? For example: a
..10uf costs $49.99 and a .47uf costs $139.99. Thanks.

Gerry

[[email protected]]

GerryE123 wrote:

I have wanted to try a pair because everybody who has raves about them.
However, I can't get past the prices. Can someone explain to me why the
price goes up so significantly as the cap value increases? For example: a
.10uf costs $49.99 and a .47uf costs $139.99. Thanks.

Gerry

All the extra smoke and mirrors that need to be stuffed inside the
cap... 4.7 x as many.

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA

[Ian Iveson]

GerryE123 wrote

...Can someone explain to me why the price goes up so significantly as the cap
value increases? For example: a .10uf costs $49.99 and a .47uf costs
$139.99...

Nearly 5 times the ufs for less than 3 times the price... what a bargain.

Manufacturing time per uf must reduce as size increases. Possibly due to set-up
or other dead time per cap.

cheers, Ian

[Sander deWaal]

"Ian Iveson" said:


...Can someone explain to me why the price goes up so significantly as the cap
value increases? For example: a .10uf costs $49.99 and a .47uf costs
$139.99...


Nearly 5 times the ufs for less than 3 times the price... what a bargain.


Uhm....yep ;-)


Manufacturing time per uf must reduce as size increases. Possibly due to set-up
or other dead time per cap.



Simple, really.
It takes more naked Balinese virgins to make larger caps at midnight
and full moon, as naked Balinese virgins are the only ones who dare
touch the fragile silver foil that is gained from an unknow Peruvian
silver mine.
Any other being touching the foil, as well as any other time than
midnight with full moon would ruin the soundstage.

A silver mine, mind you, that was supposed to be dried up since the
time of the Conquistadores.

Imagine the difficulties in exploiting this mine, and the near
impossibility to smuggle the pure silver out of Peru and into
Bali..........

Yep, these are definitely a bargain. Get them now, before stock is
exhausted!
My pile of Mundorfs suddenly became worth nothing, I guess I'll just
have to use them in my amps, instead of keeping them as a future
investment.


( Hi Al, this is all tongue in cheek, in case you don't remember me!)

--
"All amps sound alike, but some sound more alike than others".

[Prune]

Sander deWaal wrote in
:
Simple, really.
It takes more naked Balinese virgins to make larger caps at midnight
and full moon, as naked Balinese virgins are the only ones who dare
touch the fragile silver foil that is gained from an unknow Peruvian
silver mine.
Any other being touching the foil, as well as any other time than
midnight with full moon would ruin the soundstage.

LOL!

[Eeyore]

GerryE123 wrote:

wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi RATs!

http://v-cap.com/tefloncapacitors.html

never mind the mumbo-jumbo deluxe chatter:

These things sound better than her saying this is your lucky night ...

sell your Mother down the river and get what you really need: some new
capacitors.

I have wanted to try a pair because everybody who has raves about them.
However, I can't get past the prices. Can someone explain to me why the
price goes up so significantly as the cap value increases? For example: a
.10uf costs $49.99 and a .47uf costs $139.99. Thanks.

So they can make even more money ripping you off mainly.

Graham

[Ian Iveson]

Al wrote

Hi RATs!

http://v-cap.com/tefloncapacitors.html

never mind the mumbo-jumbo deluxe chatter:

These things sound better than her saying this is your lucky night ...

sell your Mother down the river and get what you really need: some new
capacitors.

Hi Al,

Missed your updates. What else is in your circuit these days?

cheers, Ian

[[email protected]]

Hi RATs!

Oh, um, yes, I have some bananas ... I had not posted for a year or so.
Time flies when you get lost in the instant future Internet Waltz

Now using Google Groupies - seems much too cool for an old geek like
me.

Now Playing in the Audio Dungeon:

80 Hz ehorns with Lambda 15" "Get Out of Khrma Free" and 4.25 mH choke.

Sony 400 DVD changer - factory stock, except for the weird discs in the
rack.

KEF Coda 9.2 Ubid specials. Basically, New Old Stock. Cartons are a bit
weathered, but the music is quite something. These cost less than the
new caps

Amp is Ella, from diyhifisupply.com in Hong Kong. I have changed the
tubes. I converted it to triode mode. I snipped the NFB loop. I put an
SS diode between each output plate and screen stopper. Cathode toward
screen.

Then, yesterday, the tftf caps arrived in their silk and mink shipping
booties and I soldered them in after snipping the 0.22uF Obbligato
Copper out of the circuit.

I awoke to Music a bit louder than usual. I think the new caps are
breaking in, or the Music is beaking out ...

Still sound OK ...

Happy Ears!
Al

PS OK, OK, not really silk and mink booties, just wrapped in sticky
bubble wrap in a big box of foam pellets ...



Ian Iveson wrote:
Hi Al,

Missed your updates. What else is in your circuit these days?

cheers, Ian

[Phil Allison]

http://v-cap.com/tefloncapacitors.html



** Err - does " tin foil " = aluminium foil, here ??




....... Phil

[Prune]

??? Tin is a completely different element from aluminum.

Makes for a great non-stick coating on the nice thick pure-copper French
cookware you can buy. It's the one good thing to come out of france,
besides the recipes. There's even a retinning shop here, where you can
take your copper cookware when the tinning wears off and they heat it on
the torch and swirl molten tin in it. And tin is a trace element that the
body uses anyways.

Off-topic enough for ya?! XD


"Phil Allison" wrote in news:4ie5gcF36alkU1
@individual.net:




http://v-cap.com/tefloncapacitors.html



** Err - does " tin foil " = aluminium foil, here ??




...... Phil

[Phil Allison]

"Prune"

??? Tin is a completely different element from aluminum.


** Idiot.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_foil

[Prune]

Anyone quoting wikipedia is an idiot. Don't you know any ****tard can edit
articles on that site? I can go and write bull**** on a page as well.
Hmm, I should make an article about Phil Allison...


"Phil Allison" wrote in news:4ie870F3d7g8U1
@individual.net:


"Prune"

??? Tin is a completely different element from aluminum.


** Idiot.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_foil

[Eeyore]

Prune wrote:

Anyone quoting wikipedia is an idiot. Don't you know any ****tard can edit
articles on that site? I can go and write bull**** on a page as well.
Hmm, I should make an article about Phil Allison...

Just because you *can* edit it doesn't mean it happens often. I find it a
valuable information resource. If the article is patently wrong then it will
soon be noticed and corrected. That gives a level of confidence.

Your argument incidentally could also be levelled at idiots with their own
websites. As in any ****tard can put their own website online. There is *no*
safeguard about these whatever and indeed they pose a greater risk.

Graham

[Phil Allison]

"Prune"

** ****ing Idiot

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/tinfoil

http://www.answers.com/topic/tin-foil

http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_18...1/tinfoil.html

[Eeyore]

Phil Allison wrote:



http://v-cap.com/tefloncapacitors.html

** Err - does " tin foil " = aluminium foil, here ??

Makes you wonder doesn't it ?

Graham

[Phil]

Phil Allison wrote:


http://v-cap.com/tefloncapacitors.html




** Err - does " tin foil " = aluminium foil, here ??




...... Phil






No, these use tin, not aluminum.

Phil

[[email protected]]

Phil wrote:

No, these use tin, not aluminum.

Phil

Hi RATs!

Subject caps now have 300+ hours of playing time. They are very
pleasant. Perhaps more so, as they "burn in", but, let us be fair, it
is hard to do double blind testing of the same devices at different
points in time. Maybe I am learning to appreciate them more! (But, I am
doubtful I am learning anything, at my age ...)

I only bought these caps because a neighborhood old audio fool I have
learned to believe over the years (and I trust everybody, but, believe
nobody, except a few, on occasion...) bought some and was pleased.

No one showed me real measurements I wouldn't care if they are
cleverly disguised inner chewing gum wrappers rolled into capacitor
looking packages. I like how they sound.

And, I know someone who has an Audio Precision system in his home. He
gives me lots of good advice. He never mentions his toy gives him the
insight of God Almighty. Perhaps he is too wise for such silly
posturing

Changing anything in my Audio Dungeon may affect my perception of
Music. I may notice 8^0

Changing nothing in my Audio Dungeon might be good for earnest
evaluations of components, but I Ching is a rascally Coyote ...

I enjoy Music through cheap SS amps and cheap speakers, too. I do not
think they sound the same as my fancy stuff, but, Music hath charms to
soothe the savage technoid.

I enjoy the Quest. I enjoy the comradery. I suffer the neo-wizards
lightly. Forgive them, Father, they just like to talk, too ... just
like me.

Happy Ears!
Al

[Patrick Turner]

" wrote:

Phil wrote:

No, these use tin, not aluminum.

Phil

Hi RATs!

Subject caps now have 300+ hours of playing time. They are very
pleasant. Perhaps more so, as they "burn in", but, let us be fair, it
is hard to do double blind testing of the same devices at different
points in time. Maybe I am learning to appreciate them more! (But, I am
doubtful I am learning anything, at my age ...)

I only bought these caps because a neighborhood old audio fool I have
learned to believe over the years (and I trust everybody, but, believe
nobody, except a few, on occasion...) bought some and was pleased.

About the same kind of things get said about Auricaps, that after fitting
them they "burn in" and
begin to increase the quality of the sound in subjective ways.
I replaced regular Wima polyprops in a client's preamp recently and did one
channel before the other.
We had an AB test with various music recordings in mono to find if he could
choose which channel had the
Auricaps and which one had the old Wimas ( which presumably were "burned
in" ).
He could not identify better than 50% of the time or say which channel was
better, different, or had the Auricaps or Wimas.
I switched between one channel and the other, asking him to identify where
the "better" caps were or not,
but he just couldn't pick it out accurately. I smiled when he said "that's
definately the better one with the auricaps"
after switching from Auricaps to Wimas.
I heard no changes, it was all fine wine to me.
There would have been no point in measuring the thd of the amps with
different caps because the
thd caused by good quality plastic film coupling caps in high impedance
circuits between
tubes is almost unmeasurable.

"Burn in" when used about capacitors is another phrase which means
that an owner has become used to the pain and expense of changeing coupling
caps, and has
mentally accepted them, like getting used to a new maid, even though she
doesn't work any
better than the old maid.
The same things are said and done with cables and line conditioners and a
few other absurd things
that ppl like to suggest make a difference.

Audiophiles like to credit themselves with super-abilities that us ordinary
mortals do not possess.
They place their hearing abilities above everyone else. In some cases, a
few DO have
better hearing, they understand words of opera and songs better than myself
or anyone else and can hum along
in perfect pitch, and their brain is obviously better connected to the
music than most of
the rest of the population. They even understand the purposes of the
emotional intentions expressed
in the music by the composer. But alas in simple AB tests where they are
asked to identify equipment changes
they don't fare much better than anyone else with supposedly normal
hearing.
I have no problem challenging their sacred cow beliefs so to find truth and
thus be better
equipped to build fine systems for such people.

I have always enjoyed my above clients system with or without his Auricaps.

He has an excellent turntable with hi-end MC which renders vinyl better
than most SACD, CD DVD etc,
and nevertheless has excellent silver disk replay systems.

He is very happy and that's what counts. His system is one of very few I
like listening to
all night, and I would rate it better than my own, but mainly because the
source
devices, ie, silver disc and black disc devices are better than anyone
else's.
Maybe the caps make a difference, but I really doubt it, it could be blind
insurance,
"put in these acclaimed caps just in case.."
Acclaimed by who? where does the BS start? with a bribe of someone in an
audio magazine
to give a good review?

Usually when the guys I know here start raving about capacitor sound they
do so
WITHOUT A REFERENCE SYSTEM FOR COMPARISONS.
So they just change something such as caps without comparing to a second
reference system
and say they hear better sound.

But are they? What is the reality?

I give them full permission to fool themselves, but none to fool me.

I have two complete systems in my lounge, and many comparisons have been
made.
The change from having crossover points in a 3 way speaker system from 1kHz
and 5 kHz to
250Hz and 3 kHz was astounding once I learnt about LCR theory, applied it,
and built
a decent measurement system.
Later when i changed from cheap asian made speaker drivers to SEAS drivers
there was another revelation, and I realised I'd wasted a lot of time on
crap made in China.
The tighter magnetic gap tolerances and cone materials in Norwegian
speakers
resulted in clearer and more precise accurtate music.

Caps and cables have made imperceptible differences.
I tried Allen Wright foil types of interconnects, twisted pairs, no change.

Maybe the system was already as good as it was gonna get.
I hear little difference between good class A tube amps and my class A
mosfet
amps.
I thought I could here something different until I did the careful AB test,
and asked
a couple of other folks around.....
Some SS amps are disgraceful though.....no doubt about that.

Patrick Turner.



No one showed me real measurements I wouldn't care if they are
cleverly disguised inner chewing gum wrappers rolled into capacitor
looking packages. I like how they sound.

And, I know someone who has an Audio Precision system in his home. He
gives me lots of good advice. He never mentions his toy gives him the
insight of God Almighty. Perhaps he is too wise for such silly
posturing

Changing anything in my Audio Dungeon may affect my perception of
Music. I may notice 8^0

Changing nothing in my Audio Dungeon might be good for earnest
evaluations of components, but I Ching is a rascally Coyote ...

I enjoy Music through cheap SS amps and cheap speakers, too. I do not
think they sound the same as my fancy stuff, but, Music hath charms to
soothe the savage technoid.

I enjoy the Quest. I enjoy the comradery. I suffer the neo-wizards
lightly. Forgive them, Father, they just like to talk, too ... just
like me.

Happy Ears!
Al

[Prune]

Patrick Turner wrote in
:

thd caused by good quality plastic film coupling caps in high
impedance circuits between
tubes is almost unmeasurable.

Not just between tubes. My voltage-output DAC chip is coupled by Auricaps
to the JFET buffer gates; I tried DC coupling by shifting the whole DAC
power supply with a DC servo, and couldn't hear a difference.

[Phil]

Patrick Turner wrote:

" wrote:


Phil wrote:

No, these use tin, not aluminum.

Phil

Hi RATs!

Subject caps now have 300+ hours of playing time. They are very
pleasant. Perhaps more so, as they "burn in", but, let us be fair, it
is hard to do double blind testing of the same devices at different
points in time. Maybe I am learning to appreciate them more! (But, I am
doubtful I am learning anything, at my age ...)

I only bought these caps because a neighborhood old audio fool I have
learned to believe over the years (and I trust everybody, but, believe
nobody, except a few, on occasion...) bought some and was pleased.


About the same kind of things get said about Auricaps, that after fitting
them they "burn in" and
begin to increase the quality of the sound in subjective ways.
I replaced regular Wima polyprops in a client's preamp recently and did one
channel before the other.
We had an AB test with various music recordings in mono to find if he could
choose which channel had the
Auricaps and which one had the old Wimas ( which presumably were "burned
in" ).
He could not identify better than 50% of the time or say which channel was
better, different, or had the Auricaps or Wimas.
I switched between one channel and the other, asking him to identify where
the "better" caps were or not,
but he just couldn't pick it out accurately. I smiled when he said "that's
definately the better one with the auricaps"
after switching from Auricaps to Wimas.
I heard no changes, it was all fine wine to me.
There would have been no point in measuring the thd of the amps with
different caps because the
thd caused by good quality plastic film coupling caps in high impedance
circuits between
tubes is almost unmeasurable.

Remember, Patrick, the A-B double blind test doesn't work in audio,
because it fails to achieve its primary purpose, namely the "isolation
of a variable." When you switch back and forth, you test two variables,
not one, the capacitor, and the ability of the mind to remember audio
passages. The Boulder amplifier company noted in a letter to the Audio
Critic that when they changed a cap WITHOUT TELLING ANYONE, they would
get tons of letters saying "What did you do, this is great?!", and yet
they knew from actual trials that in AB comparisons, no one could
distinguish between the old and new caps. The letters proved that (1)
there was indeed an audible difference, and (2) that their AB trials --
some of them even double-blind -- were incapable of detecting this
difference. The reason is obvious: By switching back and forth, you test
not only the component, but also the mind's ability to "fill in the
gaps," to remember, when hearing the old cap, the information that was
learned when listening to the new cap.

Perhaps by playing a section of music, say, 6 times in a row, and
switching to the new cap at some point unknown to the listener (after
the 2nd, OR 3rd, OR 4th, etc. time), you will find that the listener can
identify when the switch was made, BUT, you can only play a given piece
of music ONCE. Who knows? Perhaps by performing a test that, unlike the
standard implementation of the double-blind test, you will be able to
identify those componenets that truly are superior -- at least, in
combination (use, as some have suggested, a Teflon first, a Mundorf
last) -- and then make an amp that is far superior to anything you have
made so far. However, note that when a change is indeed detectable, and
initially preferable -- perhaps because it provides information unheard
before -- that over the long term, a change from a good component to a
bad component (or circuit) will result in a less satisfying system,
which is not listened to or enjoyed as much, again, even though the
change to that component or circuit INITIALLY seemed to be an
improvement. Perhaps testing listener's reactions when going both from
cap A to cap B, AND from cap B to cap A (using different selections for
each test, of course, so that you don't wind up accidently, but also
stupidly, SHIFTING from a test of the cap, to a test of the mind's
ability to "fill in the gaps"), will help to identify the "better" changes.

Phil


"Burn in" when used about capacitors is another phrase which means
that an owner has become used to the pain and expense of changeing coupling
caps, and has
mentally accepted them, like getting used to a new maid, even though she
doesn't work any
better than the old maid.
The same things are said and done with cables and line conditioners and a
few other absurd things
that ppl like to suggest make a difference.

Audiophiles like to credit themselves with super-abilities that us ordinary
mortals do not possess.
They place their hearing abilities above everyone else. In some cases, a
few DO have
better hearing, they understand words of opera and songs better than myself
or anyone else and can hum along
in perfect pitch, and their brain is obviously better connected to the
music than most of
the rest of the population. They even understand the purposes of the
emotional intentions expressed
in the music by the composer. But alas in simple AB tests where they are
asked to identify equipment changes
they don't fare much better than anyone else with supposedly normal
hearing.
I have no problem challenging their sacred cow beliefs so to find truth and
thus be better
equipped to build fine systems for such people.

I have always enjoyed my above clients system with or without his Auricaps.

He has an excellent turntable with hi-end MC which renders vinyl better
than most SACD, CD DVD etc,
and nevertheless has excellent silver disk replay systems.

He is very happy and that's what counts. His system is one of very few I
like listening to
all night, and I would rate it better than my own, but mainly because the
source
devices, ie, silver disc and black disc devices are better than anyone
else's.
Maybe the caps make a difference, but I really doubt it, it could be blind
insurance,
"put in these acclaimed caps just in case.."
Acclaimed by who? where does the BS start? with a bribe of someone in an
audio magazine
to give a good review?

Usually when the guys I know here start raving about capacitor sound they
do so
WITHOUT A REFERENCE SYSTEM FOR COMPARISONS.
So they just change something such as caps without comparing to a second
reference system
and say they hear better sound.

But are they? What is the reality?

I give them full permission to fool themselves, but none to fool me.

I have two complete systems in my lounge, and many comparisons have been
made.
The change from having crossover points in a 3 way speaker system from 1kHz
and 5 kHz to
250Hz and 3 kHz was astounding once I learnt about LCR theory, applied it,
and built
a decent measurement system.
Later when i changed from cheap asian made speaker drivers to SEAS drivers
there was another revelation, and I realised I'd wasted a lot of time on
crap made in China.
The tighter magnetic gap tolerances and cone materials in Norwegian
speakers
resulted in clearer and more precise accurtate music.

Caps and cables have made imperceptible differences.
I tried Allen Wright foil types of interconnects, twisted pairs, no change.

Maybe the system was already as good as it was gonna get.
I hear little difference between good class A tube amps and my class A
mosfet
amps.
I thought I could here something different until I did the careful AB test,
and asked
a couple of other folks around.....
Some SS amps are disgraceful though.....no doubt about that.

Patrick Turner.



No one showed me real measurements I wouldn't care if they are
cleverly disguised inner chewing gum wrappers rolled into capacitor
looking packages. I like how they sound.

And, I know someone who has an Audio Precision system in his home. He
gives me lots of good advice. He never mentions his toy gives him the
insight of God Almighty. Perhaps he is too wise for such silly
posturing

Changing anything in my Audio Dungeon may affect my perception of
Music. I may notice 8^0

Changing nothing in my Audio Dungeon might be good for earnest
evaluations of components, but I Ching is a rascally Coyote ...

I enjoy Music through cheap SS amps and cheap speakers, too. I do not
think they sound the same as my fancy stuff, but, Music hath charms to
soothe the savage technoid.

I enjoy the Quest. I enjoy the comradery. I suffer the neo-wizards
lightly. Forgive them, Father, they just like to talk, too ... just
like me.

Happy Ears!
Al

[Sander deWaal]

" said:



Subject caps now have 300+ hours of playing time. They are very
pleasant. Perhaps more so, as they "burn in", but, let us be fair, it
is hard to do double blind testing of the same devices at different
points in time. Maybe I am learning to appreciate them more! (But, I am
doubtful I am learning anything, at my age ...)


I once had a Wima MKP burn in on me.
Turned out it had some 350 V across it, where only 250 was allowed.
It lasted for a couple of hours, though. ;-)

Otherwise, just enjoy what's in your amp, enjoy the tinkering, and
forget about double blind testing and other scientific stuff, they
only serve to take the pleasure out of your hobby.

--
"Due knot trussed yore spell chequer two fined awl miss steaks."

[Patrick Turner]

wrote:

Hi RATs!

http://v-cap.com/tefloncapacitors.html

never mind the mumbo-jumbo deluxe chatter:

These things sound better than her saying this is your lucky night ...

sell your Mother down the river and get what you really need: some new
capacitors.

Happy Ears!
Al Marcy

PS These sound too good for some people. You know who you are ...

Yeah, I get these dudes saying this and that cap sounds the best, they say
they like
teflon, then they move to oilers, film this that then foilers and then
finally Auricaps
and Hovelands and Jensen et all and they don't ever keep an identical
system
with reference caps to see if the cap change was worth all the expense and
soldering.

Whener I have changed a capacitor I have heard nothing different, and
was unable to get a reliable preference made by a customer more than
random 50% chance would predict; Ie, I ask someone to identify which
channel has cap X or Y and
nobody chooses correctly better than 50% of choices.

But nevertheless, if directed, I will solder in whatever caps ppl want.

I just cannot see what the heck is so special about teflon,
except that its great in frying pans.

But Hi Al!!! you have been missing for a long time you old son of a gun!

And my mother is priceless.

The world's least said sentence:-
"Just you come over here sonny, these fancy caps are cheap."

The world's second least said sentence:-
"Jus youse lie down here luvvy, it won't costyer anyfink".

Patrick Turner.

[Prune]

Patrick Turner wrote in
:
teflon, then they move to oilers

I don't get the oil thing at all, seems inconsistent to me -- oil has a
high dielectric constant, just the opposite of what the reasoning for using
Teflon seems to be (and of course the dielectric constant of polypropylene
is even lower than Teflon).

The only thing that makes sense is that foil would be better than film, for
the same reason Vishay makes metal foil resistors along their metal film
line (they have a white paper explaining why it matters, to what extent
it's just marketing I can't judge).

[Eeyore]

Prune wrote:

Patrick Turner wrote in
:
teflon, then they move to oilers

I don't get the oil thing at all, seems inconsistent to me -- oil has a
high dielectric constant, just the opposite of what the reasoning for using
Teflon seems to be (and of course the dielectric constant of polypropylene
is even lower than Teflon).

The only thing that makes sense is that foil would be better than film, for
the same reason Vishay makes metal foil resistors along their metal film
line (they have a white paper explaining why it matters, to what extent
it's just marketing I can't judge).

Foil is used for high currents to avoid internal heating.

Graham

[Prune]

I was talking about this:
http://www.vishay.com/docs/49435/49435.pdf

Much of it is marketing, of course, but Table 1 is interesting and they say
these are measured results of this current noise (as opposed to the regular
thermal noise) they are talking about.


Eeyore wrote in
:



Prune wrote:

Patrick Turner wrote in
:
teflon, then they move to oilers

I don't get the oil thing at all, seems inconsistent to me -- oil has
a high dielectric constant, just the opposite of what the reasoning
for using Teflon seems to be (and of course the dielectric constant
of polypropylene is even lower than Teflon).

The only thing that makes sense is that foil would be better than
film, for the same reason Vishay makes metal foil resistors along
their metal film line (they have a white paper explaining why it
matters, to what extent it's just marketing I can't judge).

Foil is used for high currents to avoid internal heating.

Graham

[Prune]

Oops, my mistake, not table 1 but the numbers in the headings on the
subsequent pages.


Prune wrote in
4.76:

I was talking about this:
http://www.vishay.com/docs/49435/49435.pdf

Much of it is marketing, of course, but Table 1 is interesting and
they say these are measured results of this current noise (as opposed
to the regular thermal noise) they are talking about.


Eeyore wrote in
:



Prune wrote:

Patrick Turner wrote in
:
teflon, then they move to oilers

I don't get the oil thing at all, seems inconsistent to me -- oil
has a high dielectric constant, just the opposite of what the
reasoning for using Teflon seems to be (and of course the dielectric
constant of polypropylene is even lower than Teflon).

The only thing that makes sense is that foil would be better than
film, for the same reason Vishay makes metal foil resistors along
their metal film line (they have a white paper explaining why it
matters, to what extent it's just marketing I can't judge).

Foil is used for high currents to avoid internal heating.

Graham

[Eeyore]

Prune wrote:

Eeyore wrote in
:

Prune wrote:

Patrick Turner wrote in
:
teflon, then they move to oilers

I don't get the oil thing at all, seems inconsistent to me -- oil has
a high dielectric constant, just the opposite of what the reasoning
for using Teflon seems to be (and of course the dielectric constant
of polypropylene is even lower than Teflon).

The only thing that makes sense is that foil would be better than
film, for the same reason Vishay makes metal foil resistors along
their metal film line (they have a white paper explaining why it
matters, to what extent it's just marketing I can't judge).

Foil is used for high currents to avoid internal heating.

Graham

I was talking about this:
http://www.vishay.com/docs/49435/49435.pdf

Much of it is marketing, of course, but Table 1 is interesting and they say
these are measured results of this current noise (as opposed to the regular
thermal noise) they are talking about.

That's about resistors though, not caps.

Using good quality resistors especially in the critical locations is critical to
first class performance. I'm happy with metal film for those applications.

Mind you, there's good metal film and cheap and nasty too !

Graham

can I encourage you not to top-post btw ?

[Eeyore]

Prune wrote:

I was talking about this:
http://www.vishay.com/docs/49435/49435.pdf

Much of it is marketing, of course, but Table 1 is interesting and they say
these are measured results of this current noise (as opposed to the regular
thermal noise) they are talking about.

Having read it in more detail now, I'm inclined to complain to Vishay about some
of it's content which is plainly incorrect !

They can't even spell Boltzmann correctly ( as in his constant ).
http://www-history.mcs.st-andrews.ac...Boltzmann.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_Boltzmann
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boltzmann's_constant

They fail to mention carbon film which is very widely used. Instead they mention
only the truly miserable carbon composition which is long obsolete and today
unobtainable, I guess to make their product look fancier in comparison.

Some 'authenticity nuts' like to use carbon composition of course, which says a
lot about their mental condition !

They make claims anbout 'noise free resistors' when such things don't even
exist.

And several other example of total ******** such as
" The major objection to wirewounds, however, is the inductance that chops the
peaks and fails to replicate the higher frequencies of the second and third
harmonics."

I'd question their figures for metal film too.

Definitely written by the marketing dept and a poor show on Vishay's part.

Graham

[Patrick Turner]

Prune wrote:

Patrick Turner wrote in
:
teflon, then they move to oilers

I don't get the oil thing at all, seems inconsistent to me -- oil has a
high dielectric constant, just the opposite of what the reasoning for using
Teflon seems to be (and of course the dielectric constant of polypropylene
is even lower than Teflon).

The only thing that makes sense is that foil would be better than film, for
the same reason Vishay makes metal foil resistors along their metal film
line (they have a white paper explaining why it matters, to what extent
it's just marketing I can't judge).

The dielectric constant is an issue with caps.
But not in coupling caps in tube amps where the
charge across a cap remains virtually unchanged
while the amp is running.

A 0.47uF feeding a 220k grid bias R forms an impedance divider network with
the cap having maximum Z at LF.
At 100Hz the ZC = 3.4k.
So where you have 100Vrms across the 220k the current = 0.45mA,
and so there is 1.5Vrms across the cap at 100Hz.
If the distortion in the cap is 0.01% which is all you'd ever expect to
measure, it could be 10 times less,
then the distortion voltage = 1.5 x 0.0001 = 0.00015vrms, and this is a tiny
fraction
of the 100Vrms across the 220k, and the cap caused distortion
would be 1.5uV, about - 116bD, well below the noise floor of the amp.
The worst case scenario for distortion numbers does indicate that any old cap
will do for coupling.

Perhaps there is something I have missed here about what makes caps have a
different sound.

But all the guys who say caps make a difference will not subject themselves to
AB tests where they are required to identify which amp has what caps.
They just like to believe pretty and expensive caps make a difference.
Its a bit neurotic. Christmas is a time for celebration of Christ's birth.
Having the best Christmas lights on a christmas tree does not celebrate
Christmas any better; the lights merely celebrate idiotic shopping habits.

Some people like to celebrate Christmas in July in a day or two and
some like to replace caps more often than underpants.

I leave them to happily enjoy their truths as they believe in. My best wishes.

Patrick Turner.