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Stereophile & Cable Theory
Malcolm Omar Hawksford's seminal article on cable theory is
posted today at A HREF="http://www.stereophile.com/reference/1095cable"www.stereophile.com/reference/1095cable/A. Those who state that the "laws of physics" don't allow for differences in cable performance at audio frequencies might be surprised to learn that the laws of physics predict the opposite. John Atkinson Editor, Stereophile |
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wrote in message
oups.com Malcolm Omar Hawksford's seminal article on cable theory is posted today at A HREF="http://www.stereophile.com/reference/1095cable"www.stereophile.com/reference/1095cable/A. That's just raw HTML from a web page. The correct URL is: http://www.stereophile.com/reference/1095cable/ Those who state that the "laws of physics" don't allow for differences in cable performance at audio frequencies might be surprised to learn that the laws of physics predict the opposite. Publishing such an unecessarily math-intensive article in a consumer publication has an obvious subtext - "It's all so complex that you can't possibly understand it, so believe whatever we say". If you want to read a series of articles that is compentetly written from a teaching/learning viewpoint, please check out Jim Lesurf's: http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/...rt6/page1.html http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/...rt7/page1.html and http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/...ect/page1.html As I said in the HE2005 debate, one place where high end audio journalism falls flat on its face is quantification. the Hawksford article is obviously designed to raise a lot of concerns without proceeding far enough along the line of quantification. Had Hawksford carried the ideas he presented to a reasonable, properly-quantified conclusion, he would have had to print very un-Stereophile-like conclusion such as: "In practice it is questionable whether delays of the magnitudes shown would ever be audible. If so, the general advice would seem to be to choose reasonable large diameter wires with a close spacing in order to minimise the effects of resistance and inductance." |
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Arny Krueger wrote:
wrote in message snipped Those who state that the "laws of physics" don't allow for differences in cable performance at audio frequencies might be surprised to learn that the laws of physics predict the opposite. Publishing such an unecessarily math-intensive article in a consumer publication has an obvious subtext - "It's all so complex that you can't possibly understand it, so believe whatever we say". That seems to be the plan: the article will "dazzle 'em with science", than Atkinson, his minions and the snake oil merchants will swoop in and "baffle 'em with bull****". IOW, a typical $tereopile ploy. |
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Hello Arny,
"Arny Krueger" wrote in : .... "In practice it is questionable whether delays of the magnitudes shown would ever be audible. If so, the general advice would seem to be to choose reasonable large diameter wires with a close spacing in order to minimise the effects of resistance and inductance." I agree. What that otherwise interesting article still misses is the answer to the question: will the differences introduced by a "suboptimal" cable be audible with respect to an optimal one? So far the science answer to this question has been basicly a simple no. Bye, P.S. May I suggest that you spend less time explaining again and again things like this and spend instead sometime organizing a bit better your otherwise excellent pcabx web site? That site is a wonderful source of many useful informations, but sometimes they are a bit difficult to find. For example I searched for a long time for some data about the safety limits for frequency response deviations audibility, and found only recently that your web site has a nice graph reporting all that is needed. BTW many thanks for writing and maintaining that site, even in its current "not so friendly" form. P.P.S. Another little question: do you know of a similar graph with the limit of audibility of pre-echo (ore pre-ringing, or whathever it is called)? Something like limit of audibility with respect to pre-delay vs level and/or frequency? I searched for this kind of information for a long time too, may be it is available in some "hidden" page of your site. -- Denis Sbragion InfoTecna Tel: +39 0362 805396, Fax: +39 0362 805404 URL: http://www.infotecna.it |
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"Denis Sbragion" wrote in message
6.1 P.P.S. Another little question: do you know of a similar graph with the limit of audibility of pre-echo (ore pre-ringing, or whathever it is called)? Something like limit of audibility with respect to pre-delay vs level and/or frequency? I believe that the phrase you are looking for is "temporal masking". Here's a fairly classic item about it: http://www-ccrma.stanford.edu/~bosse/proj/node21.html More specifics: http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/enc...al_masking.htm http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/...howtopic=23467 |
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Don Pearce said: DBT anybody? No thank you. For some reason, I don't see the wisdom in spending $400 or more on a comparator and investing hundreds of hours on "tests" to rationalize buying $20 cables instead of $60 cables. YMMV of course. |
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On 29 Aug 2005 07:44:08 -0700, George Middius wrote:
Don Pearce said: DBT anybody? No thank you. For some reason, I don't see the wisdom in spending $400 or more on a comparator and investing hundreds of hours on "tests" to rationalize buying $20 cables instead of $60 cables. YMMV of course. OK, who's talking about: a) investing ANY money in a comparator b) taking hundreds of hours, or c) buying cables Get a grip, George - this is about cables, not buying cables. d |
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"Don Pearce" wrote in message
On 29 Aug 2005 07:44:08 -0700, George Middius wrote: Don Pearce said: DBT anybody? No thank you. For some reason, I don't see the wisdom in spending $400 or more on a comparator and investing hundreds of hours on "tests" to rationalize buying $20 cables instead of $60 cables. YMMV of course. Thus George reveals several tenets of the anti-scientific, anti-intellectual religion he's been preaching on RAO for years: George Middius religious belief (1): To benefit from DBTs you have to do the tests yourself. George Middius religious belief (2): To do a DBT you have to buy a switchbox. George Middius religious belief (3): To do a DBT you have to invest 100's of hours. George Middius religious belief (4): The lowest cost usable cables cost at least $20. George Middius religious belief (5): The highest cost cables cost no more than $60. George has about 4 converts - Art Sackman, We can quickly conclude that despite George's spirited defense of Stereophile and John Atkinson, he never reads it. OK, who's talking about: a) investing ANY money in a comparator George Middius b) taking hundreds of hours, or George Middius c) buying cables George Middius Get a grip, George - this is about cables, not buying cables. George has a grip, its just not on anything that is discussed in polite company. |
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wrote in message oups.com... Malcolm Omar Hawksford's seminal article on cable theory is posted today at A HREF="http://www.stereophile.com/reference/1095cable"www.stereophile.com/reference/1095cable/A. Those who state that the "laws of physics" don't allow for differences in cable performance at audio frequencies might be surprised to learn that the laws of physics predict the opposite. But naturally, there is not one single bias controlled comparison of cables where anyone, ever, heard a difference between normal cables. In short wire is wire. |
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Don Pearce said: No thank you. For some reason, I don't see the wisdom in spending $400 or more on a comparator and investing hundreds of hours on "tests" to rationalize buying $20 cables instead of $60 cables. YMMV of course. OK, who's talking about: a) investing ANY money in a comparator b) taking hundreds of hours, or c) buying cables Get a grip, George - this is about cables, not buying cables. Oh, you wanna be a audio enjuhnear? Why dint ya say so. Want some help applying for a job? I know several headhunters. Only thing is, junior cable wonk jobs don't pay much. Just so you know what you're getting into. |
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Arny Krueger wrote: "Don Pearce" wrote in message On 29 Aug 2005 07:44:08 -0700, George Middius wrote: Don Pearce said: DBT anybody? No thank you. For some reason, I don't see the wisdom in spending $400 or more on a comparator and investing hundreds of hours on "tests" to rationalize buying $20 cables instead of $60 cables. YMMV of course. snipped Get a grip, George - this is about cables, not buying cables. George has a grip, its just not on anything that is discussed in polite company. Pud pullers are Atkinson's favorite demographic; "George" is a natural. ;-) |
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On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 13:37:55 -0400, George M. Middius wrote:
Don Pearce said: No thank you. For some reason, I don't see the wisdom in spending $400 or more on a comparator and investing hundreds of hours on "tests" to rationalize buying $20 cables instead of $60 cables. YMMV of course. OK, who's talking about: a) investing ANY money in a comparator b) taking hundreds of hours, or c) buying cables Get a grip, George - this is about cables, not buying cables. Oh, you wanna be a audio enjuhnear? Why dint ya say so. Want some help applying for a job? I know several headhunters. Only thing is, junior cable wonk jobs don't pay much. Just so you know what you're getting into. Never mind, George. Better luck next time, huh? d |
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ScottW wrote:
wrote: Malcolm Omar Hawksford's seminal article on cable theory is posted today at A HREF="http://www.stereophile.com/reference/1095cable"www.stereophile.com/reference/1095cable/A. Those who state that the "laws of physics" don't allow for differences in cable performance at audio frequencies might be surprised to learn that the laws of physics predict the opposite. John Atkinson Editor, Stereophile I'm still trying to get past the claim that the speed of light is 100 times greater than typically stated. Where's an editor when you need one . Selling advertising contracts to the snake oil merchants by promising them a place on the RCL.. |
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The Krooborg is trying to muck up humanity again. No thank you. For some reason, I don't see the wisdom in spending $400 or more on a comparator and investing hundreds of hours on "tests" to rationalize buying $20 cables instead of $60 cables. YMMV of course. George Middius religious belief (1): To benefit from DBTs you have to do the tests yourself. George Middius religious belief (2): To do a DBT you have to buy a switchbox. George Middius religious belief (3): To do a DBT you have to invest 100's[sic] of hours. George Middius religious belief (4): The lowest cost usable cables cost at least $20. George Middius religious belief (5): The highest cost cables cost no more than $60. Arnii, are you attempting to argue audio with me? The last time you tried this, they had to cart you off to a rest home for a few weeks. You might do better with your mental problems if you didn't let your buttons get pushed so easily. George has a grip, its just not on anything that is discussed in polite company. Phallic obsession noted. ;-) |
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The Bug Eater argues for Kroothanasia. In short Arnii is feces and should be flushed. Would you like to do the honors, Mickey? |
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George "Minus" Middius a écrit :
...Want some help applying for a job? I know several headhunters... In fact George knows only dickhunters so if you are looking for blowjobs... ;-) |
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"George Middius" wrote in message ... The Krooborg is trying to muck up humanity again. No thank you. For some reason, I don't see the wisdom in spending $400 or more on a comparator and investing hundreds of hours on "tests" to rationalize buying $20 cables instead of $60 cables. YMMV of course. George Middius religious belief (1): To benefit from DBTs you have to do the tests yourself. George Middius religious belief (2): To do a DBT you have to buy a switchbox. George Middius religious belief (3): To do a DBT you have to invest 100's[sic] of hours. George Middius religious belief (4): The lowest cost usable cables cost at least $20. George Middius religious belief (5): The highest cost cables cost no more than $60. Arnii, are you attempting to argue audio with me? The last time you tried this, they had to cart you off to a rest home for a few weeks. You might do better with your mental problems if you didn't let your buttons get pushed so easily. Why would anybody argue audio with you, you don't know anything. |
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George "Minus" Middius a écrit :
...Want some help applying for a job? I know several headhunters... In fact George knows only dickhunters so if you are looking for blowjobs... ;-) |
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"George Middius" wrote in message ... The Bug Eater argues for Kroothanasia. In short Arnii is feces and should be flushed. Would you like to do the honors, Mickey? Yes George, I'd like to flush you, you are after all RAO's biggest turd. |
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"George Middius" wrote in
message No thank you. For some reason, I don't see the wisdom in spending $400 or more on a comparator and investing hundreds of hours on "tests" to rationalize buying $20 cables instead of $60 cables. YMMV of course. George Middius religious belief (1): To benefit from DBTs you have to do the tests yourself. George Middius religious belief (2): To do a DBT you have to buy a switchbox. George Middius religious belief (3): To do a DBT you have to invest 100's[sic] of hours. George Middius religious belief (4): The lowest cost usable cables cost at least $20. George Middius religious belief (5): The highest cost cables cost no more than $60. Arnii, are you attempting to argue audio with me? The last time you tried this, they had to cart you off to a rest home for a few weeks. Externalizing again, Middius? You might do better with your mental problems if you didn't let your buttons get pushed so easily. Middus, what about all the buttons of yours that got pushed, causing you to rise out of bed and make that self-destructive OP? |
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Oh dear. The Krooborg is rampaging and my raincoat is at the cleaner. Arnii, are you attempting to argue audio with me? The last time you tried this, they had to cart you off to a rest home for a few weeks. Externalizing again, Middius? I notice you're still ducking the questionnaire about your public declarations of dissolution. When they come for you, you can't say I didn't warn you. You might do better with your mental problems if you didn't let your buttons get pushed so easily. Middus, what about all the buttons of yours that got pushed, causing you to rise out of bed and make that self-destructive OP? Hey, you scored another Kroopologist today. He actually parroted that "facts" nonsense you spout all the time. Let's try out some actual facts. It's a fact that you, Arnii Krooborg, are frequently compared to turds and overflowing toilets. Coincidence? Hardly(tm). You are, after all, 98% pure feces. That's probably a record, even for a 'borg. As Dr. Kroomacher once said with some pride, "Zey haff not yet made a rrroll of toilet pepper zat I kannot overcome!" |
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Don Pearce said: No thank you. For some reason, I don't see the wisdom in spending $400 or more on a comparator and investing hundreds of hours on "tests" to rationalize buying $20 cables instead of $60 cables. YMMV of course. Get a grip, George - this is about cables, not buying cables. Oh, you wanna be a audio enjuhnear? Why dint ya say so. Want some help applying for a job? I know several headhunters. Only thing is, junior cable wonk jobs don't pay much. Just so you know what you're getting into. Never mind, George. So you don't care about buying cables, and you don't care about designing cables. I guess that leaves mental masturbation. Better luck next time, huh? Please spare us the details. |
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"Denis Sbragion" wrote in message 6.1... Hello Arny, "Arny Krueger" wrote in : ... "In practice it is questionable whether delays of the magnitudes shown would ever be audible. If so, the general advice would seem to be to choose reasonable large diameter wires with a close spacing in order to minimise the effects of resistance and inductance." I agree. What that otherwise interesting article still misses is the answer to the question: will the differences introduced by a "suboptimal" cable be audible with respect to an optimal one? So far the science answer to this question has been basicly a simple no. Bye, P.S. May I suggest that you spend less time explaining again and again things like this and spend instead sometime organizing a bit better your otherwise excellent pcabx web site? That site is a wonderful source of many useful informations, but sometimes they are a bit difficult to find. For example I searched for a long time for some data about the safety limits for frequency response deviations audibility, and found only recently that your web site has a nice graph reporting all that is needed. BTW many thanks for writing and maintaining that site, even in its current "not so friendly" form. P.P.S. Another little question: do you know of a similar graph with the limit of audibility of pre-echo (ore pre-ringing, or whathever it is called)? Something like limit of audibility with respect to pre-delay vs level and/or frequency? I searched for this kind of information for a long time too, may be it is available in some "hidden" page of your site. Its an utterly abysmal web sight. ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
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"Don Pearce" wrote in message ... Get a grip, George - this is about cables, not buying cables. Stereophile is about buying cables, not cables. ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
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"Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... George has a grip, its just not on anything that is discussed in polite company. How nice of you to attend our little tea party. ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
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" wrote in message ink.net... But naturally, there is not one single bias controlled comparison of cables where anyone, ever, heard a difference between normal cables. In short wire is wire. You hit the nail on the head!!!! DBT is a 'single bias' controlled comparison. That's what's wrong with it, it only controls one side of the biases. ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
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wrote in message oups.com... Selling advertising contracts to the snake oil merchants by promising them a place on the RCL.. Exactly what percent of all of their equipment advertisers get on the list? Anyone? ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
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wrote: wrote in message oups.com... Malcolm Omar Hawksford's seminal article on cable theory is posted today at www.stereophile.com/reference/1095cable. Those who state that the "laws of physics" don't allow for differences in cable performance at audio frequencies might be surprised to learn that the laws of physics predict the opposite. But naturally, there is not one single bias controlled comparison of cables where anyone, ever, heard a difference between normal cables. In short wire is wire. Actually, at the time Dan Dugan of the AES was doing cable tests at the 1991 AES Convention, he subjected John Hunter of Sumiko to a series of bias-controlled tests comparing the cables distributed by Sumiko to others. John identified the cables to a statistically significant degree. When Dan wrote up his 1991 cable tests for the JAES, he omitted Hunter's results. John Atkinson Editor, Stereophile |
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ScottW wrote: I'm still trying to get past the claim that the speed of light is 100 times greater than typically stated. Where's an editor when you need one . If that's true, I'll correct it. Errors can creep in when you are transcoding from an ASCII text file to HMTL. Thanks for the catch, ScottW. And thanks to everyone for increasing our website traffic statistics. :-) John Atkinson Editor, Stereophile |
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"Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... wrote in message oups.com Malcolm Omar Hawksford's seminal article on cable theory is posted today at A HREF="http://www.stereophile.com/reference/1095cable"www.stereophile.com/re ference/1095cable/A. That's just raw HTML from a web page. The correct URL is: http://www.stereophile.com/reference/1095cable/ Those who state that the "laws of physics" don't allow for differences in cable performance at audio frequencies might be surprised to learn that the laws of physics predict the opposite. Publishing such an unecessarily math-intensive article in a consumer publication has an obvious subtext - "It's all so complex that you can't possibly understand it, so believe whatever we say". If you want to read a series of articles that is compentetly written No, I don't know what the hell "compentely" is, and I don't want to find out. Competent is good enough for me. |
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Art Sackman took a break from "choking the chicken" and wrote: Stereophile is about buying cables, not cables. Were you struck by lightning, Sack'O'****? |
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On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 11:49:41 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote: George has about 4 converts - Art Sackman, And? I'm still waiting for my name to be taken in vain again. |
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John Atkinson wrote:
wrote: wrote in message oups.com... Malcolm Omar Hawksford's seminal article on cable theory is posted today at www.stereophile.com/reference/1095cable. Those who state that the "laws of physics" don't allow for differences in cable performance at audio frequencies might be surprised to learn that the laws of physics predict the opposite. But naturally, there is not one single bias controlled comparison of cables where anyone, ever, heard a difference between normal cables. In short wire is wire. Actually, at the time Dan Dugan of the AES was doing cable tests at the 1991 AES Convention, he subjected John Hunter of Sumiko to a series of bias-controlled tests comparing the cables distributed by Sumiko to others. John identified the cables to a statistically significant degree. When Dan wrote up his 1991 cable tests for the JAES, he omitted Hunter's results. You wouldn't happen to have any evidence to support this allegation, would you, slimeball? :-D |
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wrote in message oups.com... Stereophile is about buying cables, not cables. Were you struck by lightning, Sack'O'****? This seems to be a problem for you. Too bad. ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
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Clyde Slick wrote: wrote in message oups.com... Stereophile is about buying cables, not cables. Were you struck by lightning, Sack'O'****? This seems to be a problem for you. Only in that I wish the lightning bolt had more "juice". Too bad. Agreed. |
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"John Atkinson" wrote in message oups.com... wrote: wrote in message oups.com... Malcolm Omar Hawksford's seminal article on cable theory is posted today at www.stereophile.com/reference/1095cable. Those who state that the "laws of physics" don't allow for differences in cable performance at audio frequencies might be surprised to learn that the laws of physics predict the opposite. But naturally, there is not one single bias controlled comparison of cables where anyone, ever, heard a difference between normal cables. In short wire is wire. Actually, at the time Dan Dugan of the AES was doing cable tests at the 1991 AES Convention, he subjected John Hunter of Sumiko to a series of bias-controlled tests comparing the cables distributed by Sumiko to others. John identified the cables to a statistically significant degree. When Dan wrote up his 1991 cable tests for the JAES, he omitted Hunter's results. What kind of cables? Interconnects or speaker? What were the sources and loads? Any MIT like networks in the cables? There are lots of ways to make cables sound different. Do any of them represent good audio engineering? ScottW |
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On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 17:38:44 -0400, George M. Middius wrote:
Don Pearce said: No thank you. For some reason, I don't see the wisdom in spending $400 or more on a comparator and investing hundreds of hours on "tests" to rationalize buying $20 cables instead of $60 cables. YMMV of course. Get a grip, George - this is about cables, not buying cables. Oh, you wanna be a audio enjuhnear? Why dint ya say so. Want some help applying for a job? I know several headhunters. Only thing is, junior cable wonk jobs don't pay much. Just so you know what you're getting into. Never mind, George. So you don't care about buying cables, and you don't care about designing cables. I guess that leaves mental masturbation. Well, please enjoy that George. I don't buy cables - I have (like I'm pretty sure everybody else here has) a box of cables collected over the years that have accompanied various equipment purchasesas freebies. I use them because I know they are perfect for my needs. I know that no other cables at any price can sound any better. I will leave the mental masturbation to you and anybody else who believes otherwise. Better luck next time, huh? Please spare us the details. Glad to. d |
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