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#1
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Clean Power?
When referring to amplifiers the favorite catch-phrase of audiophiles
seems to be "clean power". As an ignorant novice I would like to know what is meant by "clean power" and how do I achieve it. Also, I once heard something about voltage matching an amplifier with a head unit but if I set my amp to 4v (same as the preouts on my head unit) I can barely hear my subs. Do I need to add a bigger amp to get the benefit of voltage matching? Will this theoretically provide "cleaner power"? |
#2
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Clean Power?
I think 'clean power' would be more of a product of a high quality amp, not
so much from an install. In other words, an amp that amplifies the signal without a lot of distortion and extra crap. Zapco and Xtant are good examples of ultra clean amplifiers. "Dylan X" wrote in message m... When referring to amplifiers the favorite catch-phrase of audiophiles seems to be "clean power". As an ignorant novice I would like to know what is meant by "clean power" and how do I achieve it. Also, I once heard something about voltage matching an amplifier with a head unit but if I set my amp to 4v (same as the preouts on my head unit) I can barely hear my subs. Do I need to add a bigger amp to get the benefit of voltage matching? Will this theoretically provide "cleaner power"? |
#3
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Clean Power?
When referring to amplifiers the favorite catch-phrase of audiophiles
seems to be "clean power". As an ignorant novice I would like to know what is meant by "clean power" and how do I achieve it. There's no such thing. Power is power. What's usually meant is low distortion and noise. It's easily attainable simply by not driving your amp into clipping. That means use sufficient amplification for your needs. Also, I once heard something about voltage matching an amplifier with a head unit but if I set my amp to 4v (same as the preouts on my head unit) I can barely hear my subs. Do I need to add a bigger amp to get the benefit of voltage matching? Will this theoretically provide "cleaner power"? No. NEVER match your amplifier's gain setting to the nominal rating on your head unit. It doesn't work because a) the output voltage of the HU doesn't always meet the nominal rating, especially when listening to quieter passages; b) filtering out higher frequencies with the LPF reduces voltage. Go strictly by ear when setting gains. There's a tutorial at installer.com's tech pages. |
#4
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Clean Power?
I think 'clean power' would be more of a product of a high quality amp,
not so much from an install. In other words, an amp that amplifies the signal without a lot of distortion and extra crap. Zapco and Xtant are good examples of ultra clean amplifiers. Doesn't matter who makes it. All amplifiers made these days have distortion byproducts well below audible threshold. Especially compared to the distortion that arises from driving your amp into clipping, which is surprisingly common. |
#5
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Clean Power?
"Mark Zarella" wrote in message ... I think 'clean power' would be more of a product of a high quality amp, not so much from an install. In other words, an amp that amplifies the signal without a lot of distortion and extra crap. Zapco and Xtant are good examples of ultra clean amplifiers. Doesn't matter who makes it. All amplifiers made these days have distortion byproducts well below audible threshold. Especially compared to the distortion that arises from driving your amp into clipping, which is surprisingly common. Eh maybe, but I refuse to believe that a Jensen or Dual amp is going to sound as good and clean as a Zapco or Xtant. |
#6
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Clean Power?
Doesn't matter who makes it. All amplifiers made these days have
distortion byproducts well below audible threshold. Especially compared to the distortion that arises from driving your amp into clipping, which is surprisingly common. Eh maybe, but I refuse to believe that a Jensen or Dual amp is going to sound as good and clean as a Zapco or Xtant. Why? Because the price tag says it does? |
#7
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Clean Power?
"Mark Zarella" wrote in message ... Doesn't matter who makes it. All amplifiers made these days have distortion byproducts well below audible threshold. Especially compared to the distortion that arises from driving your amp into clipping, which is surprisingly common. Eh maybe, but I refuse to believe that a Jensen or Dual amp is going to sound as good and clean as a Zapco or Xtant. Why? Because the price tag says it does? No, mainly becuase of the design and manufacturing. The power supply section in a Zapco amp alone costs more than all the parts in some crap amp. |
#8
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Clean Power?
Why? Because the price tag says it does?
No, mainly becuase of the design and manufacturing. The power supply section in a Zapco amp alone costs more than all the parts in some crap amp. And that translates to what? |
#9
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Clean Power?
Let me shed some light:
There is such a thing as "clean" and "dirty" power. A perfect case in point would be to run your amplifier with a cheap battery charger as its B+ supply. You will hear a tremendous amount of "hum". In other words, it is "dirty" power. At the other extreme, hook up a whole bunch ( maybe 10 ) of automotive batteries in series. Tap the "GND" from the connection between battery 5 and battery 6. Tap the amplifiers output rails (+/-) from the the top and bottom posts. to do this, you must eliminate the SMPS section and some other items. The Rectifying diodes and the bulk rail capacitors to be exact. You now have "clean" Power for your 400W/ch RMS amplifier. Many things can affect just how "clean" an amplfier is. Power supply topology, filter capacitors, Inductors, ferrite beads, transformer type, board layout, star grounding, trace capacitance, trace inductance, PCB layers ( e.g. 1, 2, 4 ). Do all these things right, and you have a "clean" power amplifier. Do any one or all these things wrong and you now have a "dirty" power amplifier. There is even an extreme case where when the output rails do not have enough bulk capacitance, the output feedback circuit goes "open loop" for just a microsecond or so. In this time, the output transistors modulate or "burst" at their peaks causing audible distortion. Lots of cheap amplifiers will do this just before clipping at full power. Not all things are created equal. Power is one of them. If you want a mechanical analog, how about a V-8 piston engine and a jet turbine John Andreen Mark Zarella wrote: When referring to amplifiers the favorite catch-phrase of audiophiles seems to be "clean power". As an ignorant novice I would like to know what is meant by "clean power" and how do I achieve it. There's no such thing. Power is power. What's usually meant is low distortion and noise. It's easily attainable simply by not driving your amp into clipping. That means use sufficient amplification for your needs. Also, I once heard something about voltage matching an amplifier with a head unit but if I set my amp to 4v (same as the preouts on my head unit) I can barely hear my subs. Do I need to add a bigger amp to get the benefit of voltage matching? Will this theoretically provide "cleaner power"? No. NEVER match your amplifier's gain setting to the nominal rating on your head unit. It doesn't work because a) the output voltage of the HU doesn't always meet the nominal rating, especially when listening to quieter passages; b) filtering out higher frequencies with the LPF reduces voltage. Go strictly by ear when setting gains. There's a tutorial at installer.com's tech pages. |
#10
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Clean Power?
There is such a thing as "clean" and "dirty" power. A perfect case in
point would be to run your amplifier with a cheap battery charger as its B+ supply. You will hear a tremendous amount of "hum". In other words, it is "dirty" power. At the other extreme, hook up a whole bunch ( maybe 10 ) of automotive batteries in series. Tap the "GND" from the connection between battery 5 and battery 6. Tap the amplifiers output rails (+/-) from the the top and bottom posts. to do this, you must eliminate the SMPS section and some other items. The Rectifying diodes and the bulk rail capacitors to be exact. You now have "clean" Power for your 400W/ch RMS amplifier. Many things can affect just how "clean" an amplfier is. Power supply topology, filter capacitors, Inductors, ferrite beads, transformer type, board layout, star grounding, trace capacitance, trace inductance, PCB layers ( e.g. 1, 2, 4 ). Do all these things right, and you have a "clean" power amplifier. Do any one or all these things wrong and you now have a "dirty" power amplifier. There is even an extreme case where when the output rails do not have enough bulk capacitance, the output feedback circuit goes "open loop" for just a microsecond or so. In this time, the output transistors modulate or "burst" at their peaks causing audible distortion. Lots of cheap amplifiers will do this just before clipping at full power. Not all things are created equal. Power is one of them. If you want a mechanical analog, how about a V-8 piston engine and a jet turbine That's all well and good, but the important thing to examine here is whether the results are significant during normal operation. Hint: by significant, I mean audible. While there are several ways to lower distortion (sometimes at the expense of noise, or at the expense of reliability, or at the expense of other forms of distortion, and so forth), there is of course a threshold at which further reduction is not warranted, nor is it necessarily recommended since there's almost always a tradeoff in some manner or another. So your engine analog holds true, but if your application is to just drive down a road, then either one will perform as well as the other. |
#11
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Clean Power?
"Mark Zarella" wrote in message news Why? Because the price tag says it does? No, mainly becuase of the design and manufacturing. The power supply section in a Zapco amp alone costs more than all the parts in some crap amp. And that translates to what? Far superior amplification. Better sound quality, better reliability. It seems that you feel that a $49 1000w amp will perform exactly like a $1500 1000 amp...why? Please explain. What kind of amps do you have? I'll bet you don't run Dual/Jensen/Pyramid amps do you? |
#12
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Clean Power?
"Mark Zarella" wrote in message ... So your engine analog holds true, but if your application is to just drive down a road, then either one will perform as well as the other. I guess that means that you run the cheapest amps you could find, correct? By your logic a Rockwood sounds exactly like a McIntosh and it costs $2000 less, so do you run Rockwood amps? Dual? Pyramid? |
#13
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Clean Power?
No, mainly becuase of the design and manufacturing. The power supply
section in a Zapco amp alone costs more than all the parts in some crap amp. And that translates to what? Far superior amplification. Better sound quality, better reliability. What aspects of the sound quality are improved? And how? It seems that you feel that a $49 1000w amp will perform exactly like a $1500 1000 amp...why? Please explain. Well, if they both truly delivered 1000w, the difference may be reliability or features (I've never heard of a 1000w amp for $49...I'll take 10 ). What kind of amps do you have? I'll bet you don't run Dual/Jensen/Pyramid amps do you? I run a/d/s/ and ESX right now because I know of no other 8 channel amps with crossovers as extensive as these and a reliatively inexpensive price tag. |
#14
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Clean Power?
So your engine analog holds true, but if your application is to just
drive down a road, then either one will perform as well as the other. I guess that means that you run the cheapest amps you could find, correct? Assuming they delivered the power you're after and that they had the features and reliability you're looking for, then yeah, price is generally the next consideration. By your logic a Rockwood sounds exactly like a McIntosh and it costs $2000 less, so do you run Rockwood amps? Dual? Pyramid? I'd run a Pyramid before I'd run a McIntosh, as long as the Pyramid was powerful enough and had the features I wanted. But, since neither manufacturer makes one with the features I want, I personally wouldn't own either. |
#15
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Clean Power?
Far superior amplification. Better sound quality, better reliability. Reliability maybe, sound quality? I bet if you didnt drive them into clipping you would not hear the difference. In fact under many tests I have seen performed the measurable differences were below the threshold of human hearing. It seems that you feel that a $49 1000w amp will perform exactly like a $1500 1000 amp...why? Please explain. What kind of amps do you have? I'll bet you don't run Dual/Jensen/Pyramid amps do you? Watts are irrelevent to the discussion of sound quality. An 50 watt amp will sound the same as a 1000 watt amp if they are both kept withing thier operating range, ie no audible clipping. There will probably be sound differences but most of them inaudible to the human ear. The reason for more expensive amps for me is reliability, customer service, resale value, more realistic wattage claims, looks, and features. But I dont buy the name, if you can get everything you want and need out of a less expensive amp then why not? Les |
#16
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Clean Power?
"Mark Zarella" wrote in message ... I run a/d/s/ and ESX right now because I know of no other 8 channel amps with crossovers as extensive as these and a reliatively inexpensive price tag. Why don't you just get 4 2 channel Kenford amps? They would sound exactly the same. |
#17
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Clean Power?
"Soundfreak03" wrote in message ... Far superior amplification. Better sound quality, better reliability. Reliability maybe, sound quality? I bet if you didnt drive them into clipping you would not hear the difference. In fact under many tests I have seen performed the measurable differences were below the threshold of human hearing. It seems that you feel that a $49 1000w amp will perform exactly like a $1500 1000 amp...why? Please explain. What kind of amps do you have? I'll bet you don't run Dual/Jensen/Pyramid amps do you? Watts are irrelevent to the discussion of sound quality. An 50 watt amp will sound the same as a 1000 watt amp if they are both kept withing thier operating range, ie no audible clipping. Yeah, but that's not the argument. The concensus here is that a Sparkomatic or Rocktron amp sounds and performs every bit as good as any Zapco, Brax, PPI, Xtant or anything else. I disagree. If it were even remotely true, everyone would just go to Auto Zone or WalMart to buy $49 Sparkomatic amps and there would be no car audio stores. |
#18
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Clean Power?
I run a/d/s/ and ESX right now because I know of no other 8 channel amps
with crossovers as extensive as these and a reliatively inexpensive price tag. Why don't you just get 4 2 channel Kenford amps? They would sound exactly the same. Because I want a single amplifier to triamp my front component set, with more power going to the midbass drivers and each channel capable of continuously adjustable bandpass filtering. Do you know of anyone else who makes one of these? And if so, is it 40x8? And if so, can it be gotten for under $250 on ebay? |
#19
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Clean Power?
Yeah, but that's not the argument. The concensus here is that a
Sparkomatic or Rocktron amp sounds and performs every bit as good as any Zapco, Brax, PPI, Xtant or anything else. I disagree. Why do you disagree? I haven't been able to pin down your reasoning for this aside from price considerations. If it sounds better, then presumably you're implying that there's a significant amount of distortion or noise in the amplifiers that you don't find favorable. While it may be true that some amps are more prone to ground loops than others, I've yet to encounter an amplifier on the market today where the noise hasn't been able to be overcome or that introduces a significant amount of distortion. If it were even remotely true, everyone would just go to Auto Zone or WalMart to buy $49 Sparkomatic amps and there would be no car audio stores. It is true, and the reason that people don't do that is because other factors are at play. Namely, reliability, warranty, customer support, looks, features, and some people like to have a name for "irrational" reasons (myself included - at one point in an old car I spent extra on an ESX amp to run my component set just so I could have all ESX amps - I thought it looked nicer that way). |
#20
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Clean Power?
I should add, by the way, that there are additional reasons for buying
better built amplifiers. But none that I can think of that directly relate to "clean" vs. "dirty" power. For instance, when you're driving low impedance loads, some amps crap out sooner than others. When you're driving an amp to its limits, some overheat and shut down. "Better" amps often don't. But I think you'd be quite surprised to find that there are some pricier amplifiers that are less stable under these circumstances than others. For example, I've had a tougher time with Profile amps overheating than Jensens, yet the general concensus among car audio groups is that Profile amps are supposedly "mid grade" whereas Jensens are "junk". I'd actually put some of the newer Jensen amps up against Kenwood, Profile, Sony, Audiobahn, Alpine, etc in terms of reliability. |
#21
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Clean Power?
Yeah, but that's not the argument. The concensus here is that a Sparkomatic or Rocktron amp sounds and performs every bit as good as any Zapco, Brax, PPI, Xtant or anything else. I disagree. But you base your disagreement on what? The name on the freakin' front of the amp? If it were even remotely true, everyone would just go to Auto Zone or WalMart to buy $49 Sparkomatic amps and there would be no car audio stores. Wrong again. In my last post, that you snipped the rest of, I gave you several reasons as to why people buy the more expensive amps. I will list them again for you because they seem to have gone over your head. Reliability, customer service, resale value, more realistic claims, looks, and features. Now add to that what Mark has said about performing under lower loads, and running balls out (ok he didnt put it that way) and I think you have definant reason OTHER than SQ that affect why people buy amps. BTW here is a quote from my last post that you snipped. "Reliability maybe, sound quality? I bet if you didnt drive them into clipping you would not hear the difference. In fact under many tests I have seen performed the measurable differences were below the threshold of human hearing." Now argue against those reasons. Les |
#22
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Clean Power?
"Reliability maybe, sound quality? I bet if you didnt drive them into
clipping you would not hear the difference. In fact under many tests I have seen performed the measurable differences were below the threshold of human hearing." A good example can be shown in carsound.com's reviews section. If you look at one of the amps that Pug cited as "bad" (Jensen) and compare it to one that he cited as "good" (Zapco), you'll see in the charts that the THD measurement on the zapco was greater. http://www.carsound.com/reviews/amps/ag1000chts.html http://www.carsound.com/reviews/amps/ats50rxchts.html But, as you've pointed out already, nobody's going to hear the difference between 0.05% and 0.2% THD anyway. |
#23
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Clean Power?
A good example can be shown in carsound.com's reviews section. If you look
at one of the amps that Pug cited as "bad" (Jensen) and compare it to one that he cited as "good" (Zapco), you'll see in the charts that the THD measurement on the zapco was greater. http://www.carsound.com/reviews/amps/ag1000chts.html http://www.carsound.com/reviews/amps/ats50rxchts.html But, as you've pointed out already, nobody's going to hear the difference between 0.05% and 0.2% THD anyway. Good example. And you can find similar charts from just about every manufacture. From Brax and Zapco to Jensen and Pyle. But some people just want to believe that they can hear the sound difference when there is not one. It just kinda bursts thier bubbles. Les |
#24
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Clean Power?
What I have found with so called cheap amps such as Profile, Jensen and
Pyramid is that you have to crank the hell out of them to get deep bass. Where more costly amps such as Orion, Kicker, PPI and MTX seem to produce deeper bass at lower volume levels. I also found that these cheaper amps seem to run a lot hotter. The only reason for this that I can think of is an inadequate power supply. In article , "Mark Zarella" wrote: I should add, by the way, that there are additional reasons for buying better built amplifiers. But none that I can think of that directly relate to "clean" vs. "dirty" power. For instance, when you're driving low impedance loads, some amps crap out sooner than others. When you're driving an amp to its limits, some overheat and shut down. "Better" amps often don't. But I think you'd be quite surprised to find that there are some pricier amplifiers that are less stable under these circumstances than others. For example, I've had a tougher time with Profile amps overheating than Jensens, yet the general concensus among car audio groups is that Profile amps are supposedly "mid grade" whereas Jensens are "junk". I'd actually put some of the newer Jensen amps up against Kenwood, Profile, Sony, Audiobahn, Alpine, etc in terms of reliability. |
#25
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Clean Power?
"Soundfreak03" wrote in message ... Yeah, but that's not the argument. The concensus here is that a Sparkomatic or Rocktron amp sounds and performs every bit as good as any Zapco, Brax, PPI, Xtant or anything else. I disagree. But you base your disagreement on what? The name on the freakin' front of the amp? Oh my God. I can't believe you people. You actually hand out advice to folks on car audio?? I wouldn't take advice from you idiots on how to wipe my ass. You guys are just plain old ****ing stupid, that's all. Why else would one think that a Sparkomatic is the exact same thing as a Brax/Zapco/Xtant??? Doesn't anyone else see the flaw here??? Does everyone here agree?? Rockwood amps are the same as JL Audio??? Kenford and Xtant are equal in sound and build quality???? Dual and Rockford are one and the same???? WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE???? |
#26
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Clean Power?
"Mark Zarella" wrote in message ... I run a/d/s/ and ESX right now because I know of no other 8 channel amps with crossovers as extensive as these and a reliatively inexpensive price tag. Why don't you just get 4 2 channel Kenford amps? They would sound exactly the same. Because I want a single amplifier to triamp my front component set, with more power going to the midbass drivers and each channel capable of continuously adjustable bandpass filtering. Do you know of anyone else who makes one of these? And if so, is it 40x8? And if so, can it be gotten for under $250 on ebay? It doesn't matter. According to YOU, all amps are the same. |
#27
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Clean Power?
"Captain Howdy" wrote in message ... What I have found with so called cheap amps such as Profile, Jensen and Pyramid is that you have to crank the hell out of them to get deep bass. Where more costly amps such as Orion, Kicker, PPI and MTX seem to produce deeper bass at lower volume levels. I also found that these cheaper amps seem to run a lot hotter. The only reason for this that I can think of is an inadequate power supply. Exactly. That's what I'm saying, but Zarella says that all amps are created equal with the same power supplies. I just don't know what to say, I'm actually at a loss for words here. I can't believe that someone could be that stupid and still be able to operate a computer and log on to the usenet. I'm just baffled. |
#28
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Clean Power?
What I have found with so called cheap amps such as Profile, Jensen and
Pyramid is that you have to crank the hell out of them to get deep bass. Where more costly amps such as Orion, Kicker, PPI and MTX seem to produce deeper bass at lower volume levels. I also found that these cheaper amps seem to run a lot hotter. The only reason for this that I can think of is an inadequate power supply. Exactly. That's what I'm saying, but Zarella says that all amps are created equal with the same power supplies. I just don't know what to say, I'm actually at a loss for words here. I can't believe that someone could be that stupid and still be able to operate a computer and log on to the usenet. I'm just baffled. Its pretty easy to figure out that a Zapco amp that claims 500 watts, and will actually put out 500 watts, will be able to drive a subwoofer easier than a Pyramid amp that "claims" 500 watts but in reality doesn't touch that. I don't think anyone is denying that fact. The point that the others was making I think is that all things being equal, 500 true watts from a Zapco will sound no better to the human ear than 500 true watts from a Pyramid. I'm not sure why that is such a hard concept to understand. I bet the commision based sales people at your local car audio store get quite excited when you walk into their store. Nick |
#29
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Clean Power?
"TheBIessedDead" wrote in message ... The point that the others was making I think is that all things being equal, 500 true watts from a Zapco will sound no better to the human ear than 500 true watts from a Pyramid. Nope. I've never had any trouble hearing differences in amps. In fact, to my surprise, I just replaced two Zapco amps the other day with a single multi channel Xtant and the Xtant actually had a much cleaner high end with a bit more air. I could hear drumsticks hitting the cymbals just a tad clearer, and I could hear fingertips on the guitar strings a little better. Besides, just the difference in power supplies alone would make the Zapco/Xtant/JL/PPI amp sound tighter and cleaner. Anyone who has any sort of electronics training will agree. I'm not sure why that is such a hard concept to understand. Maybe that's because lots of people around here seem to be idiots. I bet the commision based sales people at your local car audio store get quite excited when you walk into their store. Probably not, since my store drove them all out of business. |
#30
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Clean Power?
Nope. I've never had any trouble hearing differences in amps. In fact, to my
surprise, I just replaced two Zapco amps the other day with a single multi channel Xtant and the Xtant actually had a much cleaner high end with a bit more air. I could hear drumsticks hitting the cymbals just a tad clearer, and I could hear fingertips on the guitar strings a little better. One word Pug, Psychoacoustics. Besides, just the difference in power supplies alone would make the Zapco/Xtant/JL/PPI amp sound tighter and cleaner. Anyone who has any sort of electronics training will agree. Wrong. What electronics degree do you have? Or training of any sort? LOOK at the independent tests. The differences, if any, are well below the threshold of hearing. You obviously know NOTHING about amplifier design. I'm not sure why that is such a hard concept to understand. Maybe that's because lots of people around here seem to be idiots. I bet the commision based sales people at your local car audio store get quite excited when you walk into their store. Probably not, since my store drove them all out of business. What store is that? Where are you at? You guys got a website? Come on Pug time to put it on the table. Les |
#31
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Clean Power?
Oh my God. I can't believe you people. You actually hand out advice to folks
on car audio?? Yes. And we are making you look like an idiot again. Do I need to remind you of the last time we got into it? Your in over your head AGAIN. Your electronics knowledge is lacking severely. hy else would one think that a Sparkomatic is the exact same thing as a Brax/Zapco/Xtant??? Ok for clarification since you are an idiot with no reading skills. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING!!!!!! here let me repeat it THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING!!!!!!! Where did mark or I say that? Now when operating withing thier limits they will sound the same to the ear. That is what we are talking about. Noone is talking reliability, watts, or power supplies. Those are reasons that I said you should buy the more expensive amps. Doesn't anyone else see the flaw here??? The flaw is you cant read. See above. Does everyone here agree?? Rockwood amps are the same as JL Audio??? No. Noone said that. When did anyone say that. Your the one making all of the comparisons. Kenford and Xtant are equal in sound and build quality???? Nope. ual and Rockford are one and the same???? No again. WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE???? What is wrong with your reading comprehension? All of Marks and my claims can be backed up with factual data. Where is your data dumbass? Les |
#32
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Clean Power?
I think you need serious mental help. My God.
"Soundfreak03" wrote in message ... Oh my God. I can't believe you people. You actually hand out advice to folks on car audio?? Yes. And we are making you look like an idiot again. Do I need to remind you of the last time we got into it? Your in over your head AGAIN. Your electronics knowledge is lacking severely. hy else would one think that a Sparkomatic is the exact same thing as a Brax/Zapco/Xtant??? Ok for clarification since you are an idiot with no reading skills. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING!!!!!! here let me repeat it THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING!!!!!!! Where did mark or I say that? Now when operating withing thier limits they will sound the same to the ear. That is what we are talking about. Noone is talking reliability, watts, or power supplies. Those are reasons that I said you should buy the more expensive amps. Doesn't anyone else see the flaw here??? The flaw is you cant read. See above. Does everyone here agree?? Rockwood amps are the same as JL Audio??? No. Noone said that. When did anyone say that. Your the one making all of the comparisons. Kenford and Xtant are equal in sound and build quality???? Nope. ual and Rockford are one and the same???? No again. WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE???? What is wrong with your reading comprehension? All of Marks and my claims can be backed up with factual data. Where is your data dumbass? Les |
#33
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Clean Power?
Because I want a single amplifier to triamp my front component set, with
more power going to the midbass drivers and each channel capable of continuously adjustable bandpass filtering. Do you know of anyone else who makes one of these? And if so, is it 40x8? And if so, can it be gotten for under $250 on ebay? It doesn't matter. According to YOU, all amps are the same. It DOES matter because that's a feature set I want. I never said that all amps have the same features. Please show me where I did. Now you're just being difficult. |
#34
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Clean Power?
What I have found with so called cheap amps such as Profile, Jensen and
Pyramid is that you have to crank the hell out of them to get deep bass. Where more costly amps such as Orion, Kicker, PPI and MTX seem to produce deeper bass at lower volume levels. I also found that these cheaper amps seem to run a lot hotter. The only reason for this that I can think of is an inadequate power supply. No, that's not a problem. Every "cheap" amp I've ever tested has a flat frequency response down to 20 Hz (lower in fact). This is well documented actually. What you're undoubtedly experiencing is a lack of power. Use a bigger "cheap" amp and you won't run into this. |
#35
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Clean Power?
Exactly. That's what I'm saying, but Zarella says that all amps are
created equal with the same power supplies. I just don't know what to say, I'm actually at a loss for words here. I can't believe that someone could be that stupid and still be able to operate a computer and log on to the usenet. I'm just baffled. Hey Pug, how many amplifiers have you designed and built? How many have you even bench tested?? You've yet to provide any reasons to support your assertions. Because you have no evidence (because you have no experience aside from monkeying around in an installation bay), you've decided to resort to ad hominem attacks. The last defense of an ignorant fool. Have a nice day. |
#36
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Clean Power?
Nope. I've never had any trouble hearing differences in amps. In fact, to
my surprise, I just replaced two Zapco amps the other day with a single multi channel Xtant and the Xtant actually had a much cleaner high end with a bit more air. I could hear drumsticks hitting the cymbals just a tad clearer, and I could hear fingertips on the guitar strings a little better. Yeah, and I'm sure you performed all the necessary controls. Could it be perhaps that the new amps were more powerful? Did you conduct a proper blind test? Besides, just the difference in power supplies alone would make the Zapco/Xtant/JL/PPI amp sound tighter and cleaner. Anyone who has any sort of electronics training will agree. How?? You've yet to tell me how, even though I've asked you repeatedly. Why do you keep avoiding the issue? Please, be as technical as you'd like. My degree in EE and my experience designing and building amplifiers will allow me to keep up with you. |
#37
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Clean Power?
On Sun, 4 Jan 2004 10:40:48 -0500, "Mark Zarella"
wrote: What I have found with so called cheap amps such as Profile, Jensen and Pyramid is that you have to crank the hell out of them to get deep bass. Where more costly amps such as Orion, Kicker, PPI and MTX seem to produce deeper bass at lower volume levels. I also found that these cheaper amps seem to run a lot hotter. The only reason for this that I can think of is an inadequate power supply. No, that's not a problem. Every "cheap" amp I've ever tested has a flat frequency response down to 20 Hz (lower in fact). This is well documented actually. What you're undoubtedly experiencing is a lack of power. Use a bigger "cheap" amp and you won't run into this. Yep - it's amazing how many sonic "differences" between amplifiers disappear when they're level-matched before the comparison. Anyone that sells amplifiers using an in-store display will tell you that a customer will always favor the slightly louder setup, even if it's only a dB or two. Scott Gardner |
#38
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Clean Power?
Mr Zarella
You are correct, there is always a trade-off between a "clean" amplifier and a "dirty" amplifier. But the "dirty" amplifier will always loose in terms of reliability, distortion, sound quality etc. All at the expense of good Engineering practices and a handful of parts. On a side note, what would you rather be driving, a Yugo or a Mercedes? Ok, not the same, but how about a Yugo or a Ford Focus? But if your life depended on its proper operation all the time, which would you choose? Here is another case in point. Old school PPI amplifiers. Some of these amplifiers are over 15 years old and they are still operating and making great sound. In fact, these units are still highly sought after. Can you say the same for an equally aged Pioneer or Sony? I think you are perhaps using a shifting baseline as to what is "clean" today. Could you also be confusing distortion with noise? They are not the same. You should do some investigation on these subjects. What you say is a measurement of distortion is actually called "THD +N" a.k.a. Total Harmonic Distortion + Noise. Then to make matters worse, some audio companies use filters (read A-weighted) to make there units appear to have low THD+N. To add even more confusion into the mix, this "THD+N" is almost always computationally measured using FFT methods. There are more than a dozen FFT windows ( read measuring envelope ) that can be used to make the measurement. Each will give a return a different value for "THD+N". There is one more thing about measuring "THD+N". One must also specify the power of the signal being measured. One can measure at 1W, 5W, Full rated power, etc. "THD+N" is not constant at all power levels. It is usually higher at very low power levels and very high power levels. At very low power levels, the major component comes from "noise". At very high power levels, the major component comes from "THD". Really "clean" amplifiers have "TH +N" values nearly equal at all power levels under clipping. I can take even the "dirtiest" amplifier and measure extremely low values of distortion. On the order of 1/1000 of a %. That is, if I can choose my own method and power level of distortion measurement. There is also harmonic distortion caused by the sum and difference of two signals. Let's say a 40 kHz square wave from a power supply and a 1 kHz sine wave. There will be strong harmonic distortion at 39 kHz and 41 kHz. There are also artifacts called sub-harmonics of these two signals that will be present. These are the artifacts that can appear down in the audio spectrum. I would also like to point out that music isn't just 1 kHz, but a plethora of frequencies. I have told this group many times not to be concerned with "THD+N" as a figure of merit when buying an amplifier. The human ear doesn't mind even 1-3% THD. It is a "Marketing Tool" designed to sway the masses. Go listen to a high quality pure tube amplifier and a high quality transistorized amplifier of the same output power specifications. Do this test blindly. I am absolutely certain that you will always pick the tube amplifier over the transistorized one as having the better sound. But, that tube amplifier will have distortion figures SEVERAL HUNDRED TIMES WORSE than the transistorized amplifier. Instead, try to buy an amplifier that has Low "TIM" and low S/N. TIM stands for Transient Intermodulation Distortion. Good audio distortion analyzers can find this kind of distortion using the "IMD" settings. Now, onto the subject of noise. Noise is ever present in the audio world. It comes from the amplifiers SMPS. It comes from the Automobiles charging system. It comes from solar wind. It comes from the power transmission lines. In short, it comes from just about everywhere. In my last post, I stated several things that make for a "clean" amplifier. Those things are the items or methodologies used to eliminate or diminish the ingress of noise into an amplifier. I forgot one them. Decoupling capacitors. Once again, do not do any or all of those items, and more effective noise will make it into the audio path. Do all of them right and you will diminish the ingress of noise into the audio path and have a "clean" amplifier. I have measured and tested amplifiers from many of the "top" car audio companies. Some had signal to noise ratios of -50dB, some had signal to noise ratios greater than -100dB. In other words, the best amplifiers S/N was 64 times better than the worst. The reason, one amplifier was more "clean" than anothers. Once again, you can fudge these numbers too. S/N is different depending upon the position of the gain pot. At max gain, S/N to noise will be different than min gain. The difference, a handful of parts and good Engineering practices. QED John Andreen Mark Zarella wrote: There is such a thing as "clean" and "dirty" power. A perfect case in point would be to run your amplifier with a cheap battery charger as its B+ supply. You will hear a tremendous amount of "hum". In other words, it is "dirty" power. At the other extreme, hook up a whole bunch ( maybe 10 ) of automotive batteries in series. Tap the "GND" from the connection between battery 5 and battery 6. Tap the amplifiers output rails (+/-) from the the top and bottom posts. to do this, you must eliminate the SMPS section and some other items. The Rectifying diodes and the bulk rail capacitors to be exact. You now have "clean" Power for your 400W/ch RMS amplifier. Many things can affect just how "clean" an amplfier is. Power supply topology, filter capacitors, Inductors, ferrite beads, transformer type, board layout, star grounding, trace capacitance, trace inductance, PCB layers ( e.g. 1, 2, 4 ). Do all these things right, and you have a "clean" power amplifier. Do any one or all these things wrong and you now have a "dirty" power amplifier. There is even an extreme case where when the output rails do not have enough bulk capacitance, the output feedback circuit goes "open loop" for just a microsecond or so. In this time, the output transistors modulate or "burst" at their peaks causing audible distortion. Lots of cheap amplifiers will do this just before clipping at full power. Not all things are created equal. Power is one of them. If you want a mechanical analog, how about a V-8 piston engine and a jet turbine That's all well and good, but the important thing to examine here is whether the results are significant during normal operation. Hint: by significant, I mean audible. While there are several ways to lower distortion (sometimes at the expense of noise, or at the expense of reliability, or at the expense of other forms of distortion, and so forth), there is of course a threshold at which further reduction is not warranted, nor is it necessarily recommended since there's almost always a tradeoff in some manner or another. So your engine analog holds true, but if your application is to just drive down a road, then either one will perform as well as the other. |
#39
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Clean Power?
Mark,
Why the A/D/S amplifiers? It is because they are well made according to Engineering practices and very high quality parts. I know, some of my "work" is in that amplifier. BTW: There are two caveats on the A/D/S P850. Channel separation is a little lacking. But it is still quite good. Also, constant bass if used will diminish your soundstage. John Andreen Mark Zarella wrote: No, mainly becuase of the design and manufacturing. The power supply section in a Zapco amp alone costs more than all the parts in some crap amp. And that translates to what? Far superior amplification. Better sound quality, better reliability. What aspects of the sound quality are improved? And how? It seems that you feel that a $49 1000w amp will perform exactly like a $1500 1000 amp...why? Please explain. Well, if they both truly delivered 1000w, the difference may be reliability or features (I've never heard of a 1000w amp for $49...I'll take 10 ). What kind of amps do you have? I'll bet you don't run Dual/Jensen/Pyramid amps do you? I run a/d/s/ and ESX right now because I know of no other 8 channel amps with crossovers as extensive as these and a reliatively inexpensive price tag. |
#40
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Clean Power?
I bet the commision based sales people at your local car audio store get
quite excited when you walk into their store. Nick I know I did. Sounds like the kind of guy that would come in and evertime I showed him something would ask "Is this competition?"! LOL! GOD, I hated those guys. Yo man, I want some Rocksford (yes, they said it with the "s" in there) Fosgate competition subs that bump! That's one of the things that makes me glad I got out of retail. Paul Vina |
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