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#1
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Direct box "flow through"
Z Man wrote:
My need is a DI that I can bring to gigs as I'm sick of getting stuck with crappy DIs that they have there. The difference is I need the "flow through" portion of the DI (i.e. the connection that comes out of the DI back into my amp) to be as transparent as possible. I don't put anything inline between my '76 PBass and my '68 SVT head. I can hear when my signal has been compromised by a crappy direct box, and in situations like this I'm forced to either unplug the direct box entirely (and **** off the sound guy) or play through the lame box and have the life sucked out of my amp sound (as happened this last weekend with a particularly sh***y behringer box). It's almost impossible to find one and they cost a lot, but the Evil Twin is one awesome direct box. Pass-through is beyond superb, and the DI feed to whatever is fabulous. While I now have more experience with it that with other hi-end DI's, my opinion is that the ET works way better for me than did the likes of Avalons, Demeters, etc. If I can get a DI box that also sounds good as a direct signal to the board, then wonderful. But, I'm more interested in the initial signal split and why some boxes can do this well and some can't. Put a lot of crappy stuff in the pass-through, and ther you don't go. -- hank alrich * secret mountain audio recording * music production * sound reinforcement "If laughter is the best medicine let's take a double dose" |
#2
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Direct box "flow through"
LeBaron & Alrich wrote:
It's almost impossible to find one and they cost a lot, but the Evil Twin is one awesome direct box. Pass-through is beyond superb, and the DI feed to whatever is fabulous. While I now have more experience with it that with other hi-end DI's, my opinion is that the ET works way better for me than did the likes of Avalons, Demeters, etc. I just remembered that Millennia Media will soon offer a DI, too. Obviously, that's got to be worth examining. None of the good stuff is cheap, although the Baggs Paracoustic DI, aimed at piezo pickups out of acoustic instruments, does a remarkable job. -- hank alrich * secret mountain audio recording * music production * sound reinforcement "If laughter is the best medicine let's take a double dose" |
#3
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Direct box "flow through"
I like the Demeter VTDB for this app. The "pass through" is a direct
connection and is tube buffered from the mic level output. and its sounds great with a P-bass. |
#4
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Direct box "flow through"
"Z Man" read this in the National Enquirer :
I don't put anything inline between my '76 PBass and my '68 SVT head. I can hear when my signal has been compromised by a crappy direct box, and in situations like this I'm forced to either unplug the direct box entirely (and **** off the sound guy) or play through the lame box and have the life sucked out of my amp sound (as happened this last weekend with a particularly sh***y behringer box). I, as sort of a slacker (but one who is accustomed to working with pretty decent spec stuff on corporate band shows of various levels all the way up to IBM and some other household names. We use a truckload of the Countryman boxes BTW, among a few others that are higher up), am just a little surprised that a bass, of all instruments is compromised to this degree, and in particular in a live setting. I guess I just don't run into but a handful of guys that concerned about how the bass sounds, on that fine a level, and to the benefit of so few. I suppose I could see Vic Wooten doing some utter hair splitting, decrying the loss of the 16k... But he also doesnąt use the P bass and an old SVT. Somehow I thought the charm in that rig was the low gurgle and not the ultra fidelity. Also, are most DIs in live situations active or passive? Yes. -- TAPKAE http://tapkae.com "We're the cleanup crew for parties we were too young to attend" (Kevin Gilbert) |
#5
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Direct box "flow through"
"Z Man" wrote in message om... I asked this question personally of the ever helpful Fletcher, but I wanted to put this out to a broader audience: My need is a DI that I can bring to gigs as I'm sick of getting stuck with crappy DIs that they have there. The difference is I need the "flow through" portion of the DI (i.e. the connection that comes out of the DI back into my amp) to be as transparent as possible. I don't put anything inline between my '76 PBass and my '68 SVT head. I can hear when my signal has been compromised by a crappy direct box, and in situations like this I'm forced to either unplug the direct box entirely (and **** off the sound guy) or play through the lame box and have the life sucked out of my amp sound (as happened this last weekend with a particularly sh***y behringer box). If I can get a DI box that also sounds good as a direct signal to the board, then wonderful. But, I'm more interested in the initial signal split and why some boxes can do this well and some can't. Also, are most DIs in live situations active or passive? I'll probably want something that can be used in most club situations.... Thanks in advance, Z A couple bass player friends of mine like the Raven Labels stuff, it might be worth checking out for you, especially the ADP1 direct box : http://www.raven-labs.com/mainframe.html Bass Northwest is a good place to buy Raven Labs and other bass stuff : http://www.bassnw.com/raven_lab_adp1_direct_box.htm If you are not involved with The Bottom Line mailing list for bass players you should join up and ask there : http://www.magpie.com/tbl/ Best of luck! John L Rice |
#7
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Direct box "flow through"
The expenisve DI boxes suggested (Countryman, for example) will spit
out a great tone from both ends (as good as what you shove into it, anyway). But since you're asking specifically about keeping the passthrough clean, and didn't mention caring what the DI output sounds like, I thought I'd mention that it's ONLY the very high input impedance of the DI that makes sure the passthrough sounds just like the source. Like Scott says, it's a stright wire connection and it's only the loading of the pickups that messes up the tone. So in a general sense, a passive (transformer-based) DI is going to mess up your sound more than almost any active DI. There's a limit to how high the input impedance of a transformer can be, and there are sonic and financial consequences to pushing that limit. While it is possible to make a low-impedance active DI, or a just plain bad-sounding one, it's relatively easy to keep the input impedance high and your amp sounding great, even if the output of the DI isn't so great. A FET front end is pretty much the standard for anything that doesn't cost a huge amount of money. A tube front end can work well too. Doesn't the SVT have a preamp output that you could feed to the soundguy? ulysses In article , Z Man wrote: I asked this question personally of the ever helpful Fletcher, but I wanted to put this out to a broader audience: My need is a DI that I can bring to gigs as I'm sick of getting stuck with crappy DIs that they have there. The difference is I need the "flow through" portion of the DI (i.e. the connection that comes out of the DI back into my amp) to be as transparent as possible. I don't put anything inline between my '76 PBass and my '68 SVT head. I can hear when my signal has been compromised by a crappy direct box, and in situations like this I'm forced to either unplug the direct box entirely (and **** off the sound guy) or play through the lame box and have the life sucked out of my amp sound (as happened this last weekend with a particularly sh***y behringer box). If I can get a DI box that also sounds good as a direct signal to the board, then wonderful. But, I'm more interested in the initial signal split and why some boxes can do this well and some can't. Also, are most DIs in live situations active or passive? I'll probably want something that can be used in most club situations.... Thanks in advance, Z |
#8
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Direct box "flow through"
Thanks for everyone's help. It does sound exactly like a loading
problem on the pickups when I use a bad DI. I think that I might be particularly susceptable to loading issues due to my SVT being so old and possibly from not having it worked on in so long (the output is apparently well under 200W for a 300W amp and it's trying to drive an 800W cabinet)? But the tone is beautiful so I won't be mucking with it anytime soon. I seem to recall using a countryman before and not having problems with it, but I couldn't remember. I'll give one a shot and see how it goes. Thanks again everyone. Z |
#9
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Direct box "flow through"
Active DIs minimally load the pickups, but the few I've
seen have the unbalanced output jack in parallel with the input jack, so patching on to a conventional amp can load down the pickups. Do any of the active DIs have a buffer amp driving the unbalanced output so that this doesn't happen? |
#10
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Direct box "flow through"
Gidney and Cloyd wrote in message y.com...
Active DIs minimally load the pickups, but the few I've seen have the unbalanced output jack in parallel with the input jack, so patching on to a conventional amp can load down the pickups. Do any of the active DIs have a buffer amp driving the unbalanced output so that this doesn't happen? Demeter VTDB, retrospec Juice Box, and (provided you perform a minor factory-authorized modification to the circuit board) the BSS AR-133 all have this feature. |
#11
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Direct box "flow through"
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#12
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Direct box "flow through"
Buster Mudd wrote:
Mike Tulley wrote in message . .. There is no DI which loads your bass pickups LESS (i.e., is more transparent) than the Countryman. Well, if "loading your bass pickups LESS" is by definition inversely proportional to the DI's input impedance, a Demeter VTDB loads them less by a factor of two. And my DIY DI project from the March 1998 Recording magazine loads it less by a factor of five, although it doesn't give any ground isolation. I must disagree. It is the Countryman that changes the sound in some way that people like, especially if those people are using the DI on run-of-the-mill guitars, basses, etc. and their only other choice is a Whirlwind or ProCo DI. But the output of a Countryman Type 85 is most definitely NOT uncolored; it's just that the coloration is far more pleasing & complimentary to most input signals than 99% of the other DI's out there. The Countryman still has a transformer in it, which does introduce some coloration in there. But it's not a bad coloration. Listen to how a Countryman skews the balance of treble to midrange on a known signal; there is a disproportionate emphasis of material above 4kHz, probably as a result of the large phase shifts inherent in that DI. The closest thing to an ideal Input=Output DI I ever heard was the original Radial JDV. Comparing that side by side with a Countryman Type 85 is like comparing a Hardy Twin Servo to a Mackie XDR in terms of honesty & accuracy. Dunno. Part of the problem is that we don't really have a reference for what the direct output signal is _supposed_ to sound like. An accurate reproduction may not be a good thing at all, actually. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#13
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Direct box "flow through"
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
... An accurate reproduction may not be a good thing at all, actually. --scott That should be tattooed on every engineers forehead. |
#14
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Direct box "flow through"
Gidney and Cloyd wrote:
Active DIs minimally load the pickups, but the few I've seen have the unbalanced output jack in parallel with the input jack, so patching on to a conventional amp can load down the pickups. Do any of the active DIs have a buffer amp driving the unbalanced output so that this doesn't happen? I really don't think that's necessary. First of all, the buffer would add its own coloration, for better or worse. Secondly, a DI with a very high input impedance (say 10M or so) in parallel with a typical amplifier input impedance (1M to 3M or so) is not going to be a big deal to most any wirewound bass pickup. And since the only real reference you have is the way the amp sounds without the DI involved, this is relatively easy to verify. ulysses |
#15
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Direct box "flow through"
On 20 Aug 2003 08:26:51 -0400, (Mike Rivers)
wrote: In article writes: Do any of the active DIs have a buffer amp driving the unbalanced output The Millenia Media box even has a selectable impedance for the output that goes to the amplifier so that you can present the amplifier with different source impedances Hi Mike, I'm calling our new box (TD-1 Twin Direct) a "Half Rack Recording Channel" rather than a DI Box, though it offers a number of DI functions. Here are some of the selectable aspects: 1.) DI input (impedance buffer) amplifier can be switch selected as an NOS Mullard CV4024 vacuum tube, or discrete FETs. This is the "Twin Topology" aspect of TD-1. 2.) DI input impedance can be switch selected as 500K, 2M, or 10M. We can customize up to 22M upon request, but I've not heard a difference on any test source loaded with 10M vs. 22M, including finicky piezo-electric bridge pickups. 3.) DI input has a Direct Out that can be selected active (buffered) or passive (unbuffered). When unbuffered, DI input impedance will be determined by whatever is plugged into the direct out. When buffered, DI input impedance value is in parallel with 1M. 4.) The "selectable output impedance" you mention probably refers to the dual REAMP outputs. Each REAMP output has a transformer-based circuit which closely emulates the output characteristics of single-coil (Strat) or dual-coil "hum bucking" (Les Paul) pickups. There are a total of nine outputs on the Twin Direct. And besides the DI input, there is an HV-3 microphone preamplifier (65 dB gain), a balanced line input, and a "Speaker Soak" (guitar amplifier) input. A parametric EQ (20 Hz - 25 kHz) and numerous other functions are designed into TD-1, which is why I prefer to call it a "Half Rack Recording Channel" rather than imposing the semantic limitations of "Direct Box." JL http://www.mil-media.com |
#16
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Direct box "flow through"
Buster Mudd wrote: (Buster Mudd) wrote in message . com... Well, if "loading your bass pickups LESS" is by definition inversely proportional to the DI's input impedance, a Demeter VTDB loads them less by a factor of two. Or maybe it's a factor of 10 & some change: Countryman has 2M input impedance, VTDB has 27M input impedance. Ah, but who's counting? I think you were closer the first time. A Countryman Type 85 has an input impedance of 10 Megohms. Demeter VTDB-2 has an input impedance of 27 Megohms, making it a factor of not quite 3. I can't believe I know that trivia off the top of my head. /Bob Ross |
#17
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Direct box "flow through"
Scott Dorsey wrote:
The Countryman still has a transformer in it, which does introduce some coloration in there. But it's not a bad coloration. While I have always found the Countryman DI's to be truly pro built and beyond just reliable, I have never been able to cuddle their sound. -- hank alrich * secret mountain audio recording * music production * sound reinforcement "If laughter is the best medicine let's take a double dose" |
#18
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Direct box "flow through"
"LeBaron & Alrich" wrote in message . .. Scott Dorsey wrote: The Countryman still has a transformer in it, which does introduce some coloration in there. But it's not a bad coloration. While I have always found the Countryman DI's to be truly pro built and beyond just reliable, I have never been able to cuddle their sound. What sound? The Countryman was designed to be transparent and NOT have a sound. The sound is to be found downstream with what you interface it to. What little sound it does have is very subtle. -- AudioGaff |
#19
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Direct box "flow through"
Right, and having used them a few hundred times I find that to me, they
have a pretty obvious sound, very clean and somewhat brittle. Just put one next to an Evil Twin and see what you think. Dang, Hank, you must be trying to get a pickup to sound tolerable. The Countryman does an admirable job of making **** sound as bad as it really is. I've found with Fishman & Underwood pickups that even a low end cheap tube DI helps by intentionally NOT presenting a faithful representation of the input at the output. Scott Fraser |
#20
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Direct box "flow through"
LeBaron & Alrich wrote:
AudioGaff wrote: What sound? The Countryman was designed to be transparent and NOT have a sound. The sound is to be found downstream with what you interface it to. What little sound it does have is very subtle. Right, and having used them a few hundred times I find that to me, they have a pretty obvious sound, very clean and somewhat brittle. Just put one next to an Evil Twin and see what you think. But the Evil Twin also has a very obvious sound, so it's not a fair comparison. In fact, there CAN BE NO FAIR COMPARISON between boxes since we never really know what the original sound actually is without a box. And even if we did, we might not want it anyway. All you can say is that one sounds better than another. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#21
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Direct box "flow through"
"LeBaron & Alrich" wrote in message
. .. AudioGaff wrote: What sound? The Countryman was designed to be transparent and NOT have a sound. The sound is to be found downstream with what you interface it to. What little sound it does have is very subtle. Right, and having used them a few hundred times I find that to me, they have a pretty obvious sound, very clean and somewhat brittle. Just put one next to an Evil Twin and see what you think. As the owner of both of those, I have. Brittle? Not to me. And you ought to be smart enough to know that is far from a direct or fair comparison. -- AudioGaff |
#22
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Direct box "flow through"
AudioGaff wrote:
"LeBaron & Alrich" wrote... AudioGaff wrote: What sound? The Countryman was designed to be transparent and NOT have a sound. The sound is to be found downstream with what you interface it to. What little sound it does have is very subtle. Right, and having used them a few hundred times I find that to me, they have a pretty obvious sound, very clean and somewhat brittle. Just put one next to an Evil Twin and see what you think. As the owner of both of those, I have. Brittle? Not to me. And you ought to be smart enough to know that is far from a direct or fair comparison. To treat any of these opinions as fact is to call intelligence into question; I also would take my Jensen DI's over the Countryman, and have done so regularly. _I_ consider the sound emanating from the Countryman DI to have a brittle quality to it. Big deal. And since it's a DI, we can fairly compare it to other DI's. It ain't like saying it should be a mic. Again, I consider the Countryman DI really good value, outstanding reliability, blah blah. I don't care for what it does to the sound of instruments to which I have applied it. We used these things almost daily at AWHQ with nary a failure. -- hank alrich * secret mountain audio recording * music production * sound reinforcement "If laughter is the best medicine let's take a double dose" |
#23
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Direct box "flow through"
ScotFraser wrote:
You heard the David Gage "Realist" pickups yet? Working usefully on a string bass and a cello of my acquaintance. That's the one that goes under the foot of the bridge? If so, yes I heard one once, on a student bass player & I was amazed at how non-crappy it sounded, way better than any Fishman or Underwood. The thing about the bass and cello "Realist" pickups is that they seem to work with a range of inputs from classy DI's to ordinary instrument amp front ends. How does it sound for arco playing? http://www.davidgage.com/z_realist.htm quotes "Recognizing the limitations of microphones and traditional piezo transducers, Ned and I decided that for the working musician things could and should be better. We felt a transducer should be equal in it's ability to recreate an acoustic pizzicato and arco sound through commonly used amplifiers." If it's what I heard Doug Harman playing a couple months back with Norton it's pretty darn OK with me. |
#24
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Direct box "flow through"
Kurt Albershardt wrote:
ScotFraser wrote: How does it sound for arco playing? http://www.davidgage.com/z_realist.htm quotes "Recognizing the limitations of microphones and traditional piezo transducers, Ned and I decided that for the working musician things could and should be better. We felt a transducer should be equal in it's ability to recreate an acoustic pizzicato and arco sound through commonly used amplifiers." If it's what I heard Doug Harman playing a couple months back with Norton it's pretty darn OK with me. Yep, that's what you heard. I think that was his second gig with the new setup. -- hank alrich * secret mountain audio recording * music production * sound reinforcement "If laughter is the best medicine let's take a double dose" |
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