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#41
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3dB doubles the power, dumb****. It takes about a 10dB gain to make an
audible difference in power. Yes you will see a difference on the o-scope and, yes, you really will be able to measure a increase in rail voltage. So? Are you such a loser you don't even know how to kill yourself properly? And about the troll thing, I've been posting here since 2000. Go play with your dollies. |
#42
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Sir, you really aren't the poster child for the English language. And
your people think we assault the language....... Nothing personal, just please use a spell check. |
#43
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wrote in message ups.com... 3dB doubles the power, dumb****. It takes about a 10dB gain to make an audible difference in power. Yes you will see a difference on the o-scope and, yes, you really will be able to measure a increase in rail voltage. So? Are you such a loser you don't even know how to kill yourself properly? And about the troll thing, I've been posting here since 2000. Go play with your dollies. It has been readily documented that people can easily hear a 3 dB increase. BUT note that I said HEAR wonder how that translates to tactile sensation? Chad |
#44
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Just to put in my two cents:
Power = Work / Time Work = F * d * cos( @ ) Fc = m * v * v / r Thus E = m * c * c And no, I don't know if black holes are real. But I'm workin' on it! |
#45
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"MOSFET" wrote in message
Yes, and I suppose Dr. Jacobs designed the Accuvolt just for the hell of it. Does he make money from it? |
#46
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Um...why would an amp run cooler if it's delivering more power? Are you
suggesting that there's a drastic change in efficiency? Where is that coming from? The vast majority of amplifiers aren't fully regulated. On Wed, 16 Mar 2005, MOSFET wrote: "Chad Wahls" wrote in message ... "MOSFET" wrote in message news "MZ" wrote in message ... On Wed, 16 Mar 2005, Waldodamon wrote: This is great. 2.5V won't make a difference, gotta love it. Mosfet is correct and I have done the procedures to prove it. My MA Audio How can I argue with that? Your MA Audio has single-handedly rewritten the laws of physics. Way to go. Yes, and I suppose Dr. Jacobs designed the Accuvolt just for the hell of it. I mean, HE of all people would know that nobody could possibly hear the difference, right Mark. MOSFET You gotta double your power to gain 3dB. You ain't gonna come close to doubling your power with an accuvolt. You MAY gain 1 DB, but I doubt it after amplifier SOA saturation and power compression. Is it worth the added stress to the amp? It's not the input voltage that counts it's the rail voltage at the finals. Anybody done the math? Got out the meter and actually taken measurements? Chad Well, I have some experience with this. I was having alternator problems and I measured my voltage and I was getting only 11.5-12 volts. I got a new (more powerful) alternator that ran at 14.4 volts and I REALLY noticed a difference. Also, my amp ran much cooler. And no, I'm not making this story up to win an argument. I really do make a point of never chiming in unless I have some experience with a topic. But no, I am not an engineer. Look, I'm not saying this will be noticeable in all amps. But with loosely regulated amps, you will get more wattage. That's all I'm saying. I have 15 years of tests reports in stereo magazines to back me up here! Are they lying? Yes, it takes about a 3 dB difference to be perceptible, I agree. But if you are looking for every dB you can, then THIS IS IMPORTANT! That's all I'm saying. Of course, that MORON mmdir2002 is misunderstanding what Mark is saying (what's new), and construing it to mean voltage makes no difference. MOSFET |
#47
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Look, I tend not to like refering to magazines to prove my knowledge. It's
kind of cheesy. But this to me seems to be a widely known fact, something I've known for 20 years. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you are arguing as I don't think there is any debate on this subject (unregulated amps produce more wattage with more voltage). Maximum output is not the same thing as gain. |
#48
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This is great. 2.5V won't make a difference, gotta love it. Mosfet is
correct and I have done the procedures to prove it. My MA Audio How can I argue with that? Your MA Audio has single-handedly rewritten the laws of physics. Way to go. Mark, instead of just saying something sarcastic to this guy who obviously has some knowledge and good test equipment (those Ohio generators don't come cheap), perhaps we could hear WHY he has rewritten the laws of physics. Frankly, if you're not going to explain yourself, this hit-and-run kind of posting basically amounts to a cheap shot and I would expect more from you. Chad summed it up already. |
#49
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Simple ohms law can clear it up
P=I*E (watts = Volts * Amps) if you increase the voltage or amps the watts will increase also. This will only be true for nonregulated amps. regulated amps will keep the voltage the same regardless of input voltage (to a point). Weather you can hear a difference is a different story. but I believe you can tell a difference. I agree with Chad that running at higher voltage puts more stress on the transistors. Low voltage is just as dangerous if not more so, as it can cause the Amplifer to draw more Current to produce the desired output. Low Voltage is usually what causes amps to overheat. Yes, perfect. Well said. The gain of an amp is dependent mostly on the current source driving the VA stage, and the gain of the VA stage itself. Neither of these things are directly influenced by supply voltage. |
#50
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3dB doubles the power, dumb****. It takes about a 10dB gain to make an
audible difference in power. Sorry, but this is highly dependent on the frequency. It can actually be as little as about 3 dB for some frequencies. Yes you will see a difference on the o-scope and, yes, you really will be able to measure a increase in rail voltage. So? Are you such a loser you don't even know how to kill yourself properly? And about the troll thing, I've been posting here since 2000. Go play with your dollies. No one knows who you are. 3 posts a year don't count. |
#51
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now now brown cow. the admin doesn't like swearing, which you as a child have GOT to learn no to do. What admin? This is an unmoderated USENET newsgroup. |
#52
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I haven't been here in awhile. I was TO-3 in another life.
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#53
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Uhh, quit posting, here, through CAF. No one is going to be kicked off,
banned, hanged, drawn, and quartered, etc....... |
#54
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wrote in message oups.com... MOSFET wrote: "MZ" wrote in message ... n other words, the voltage dip tends to be so brief that it just ends up meshing with the dynamics of the music anyway. Nothing to worry about. Perhaps. But I think I hear a difference. Now Mark, don't go telling me that and making me wonder if I have wasted my time! MOSFET MOSFET, you do not know nothing about electronic stuff. There is no difference of output sound if amp is supply by 1.44DC Volts or 12.5DC Volts. Amp input voltage is DC (direct current) and the output audio is AC (alternative current), therefore output AC current will not changed by the small different of input DC voltage. Of course, big different of input DC voltage will either destory Amp or does not work at all. You are just another ignorant guy on electronic knowledge. If DC voltage does not matter, why do the better amps take the DC voltage and change it to AC (alternating), then go through a transformer to step up the voltage, then change it back to DC voltage again, I believe about 64 volts DC (-32 volts and +32 volts), it may be different depending on amp (Chad may know that better than me) |
#55
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"MZ" wrote in message ... Um...why would an amp run cooler if it's delivering more power? Are you Mark, I swear to God sometimes I think you just try to be difficult. I mean, isn't it obvious. If I always listen to my music at a certain volume (wattage) level, let's say an average of 100 watts to the sub and I am getting 12 volts my amps will draw more current and be hotter than when I am getting 14.4 volts and listening to my 100 watts. Ohms law, right? I would think this would be really obvious. But maybe it's just me? MOSFET |
#56
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"MOSFET" wrote in message ... "MZ" wrote in message ... Um...why would an amp run cooler if it's delivering more power? Are you Mark, I swear to God sometimes I think you just try to be difficult. I mean, isn't it obvious. If I always listen to my music at a certain volume (wattage) level, let's say an average of 100 watts to the sub and I am getting 12 volts my amps will draw more current and be hotter than when I am getting 14.4 volts and listening to my 100 watts. Ohms law, right? I would think this would be really obvious. But maybe it's just me? MOSFET The amp will run cooler at 14.4 volts at 100 watts, because it will be using less current. and current is what produces heat -- The Clown Prince of Car Stereo |
#57
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"Flashovr29" wrote in message om... I understand that most specs revolve around 14.4 volts and as a result wattages are lower for 12.5 volts. What is applicable to us? A regular car battery is 12.5 correct? Did we answer your question Flashovr29 ? -- The Clown Prince of Car Stereo |
#58
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"joe.ker" wrote in message news:xA2_d.9254$Z07.5150@trnddc02... "MOSFET" wrote in message ... "MZ" wrote in message ... Um...why would an amp run cooler if it's delivering more power? Are you Mark, I swear to God sometimes I think you just try to be difficult. I mean, isn't it obvious. If I always listen to my music at a certain volume (wattage) level, let's say an average of 100 watts to the sub and I am getting 12 volts my amps will draw more current and be hotter than when I am getting 14.4 volts and listening to my 100 watts. Ohms law, right? I would think this would be really obvious. But maybe it's just me? MOSFET The amp will run cooler at 14.4 volts at 100 watts, because it will be using less current. and current is what produces heat -- The Clown Prince of Car Stereo Yes, thank you. |
#59
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"joe.ker" wrote in message news:NB2_d.9255$Z07.749@trnddc02... "Flashovr29" wrote in message om... I understand that most specs revolve around 14.4 volts and as a result wattages are lower for 12.5 volts. What is applicable to us? A regular car battery is 12.5 correct? Did we answer your question Flashovr29 ? -- The Clown Prince of Car Stereo Well, who the hell knows? We have everybody fighting. And then this guy, Tubehead1, comes out of the blue and apparently hates my guts and wants me to die for GOD KNOWS WHY? Now, mmdir2002, you may flame me and tell me to die. I have been so rude to you that you have earned the right to flame me. I think we all need to take a deep breath here and just chill. And mmdir2002, if you truly are trying to help people then I am sorry for some of things I have said to you. MOSFET |
#60
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On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 21:44:35 GMT, MZ wrote:
now now brown cow. the admin doesn't like swearing, which you as a child have GOT to learn no to do. What admin? This is an unmoderated USENET newsgroup. A lot of people post here via CarAudioForum.com. It's a web-based bulletin-board that serves as a front-end for rec.audio.car. That's probably what he's talking about with "admin" and "kicked off". -- Scott Gardner "It's not necessary to lose your soul in this business, but a certain amount of damage will be done to it" |
#61
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joe.ker wrote: wrote in message oups.com... MOSFET wrote: "MZ" wrote in message ... n other words, the voltage dip tends to be so brief that it just ends up meshing with the dynamics of the music anyway. Nothing to worry about. Perhaps. But I think I hear a difference. Now Mark, don't go telling me that and making me wonder if I have wasted my time! MOSFET MOSFET, you do not know nothing about electronic stuff. There is no difference of output sound if amp is supply by 1.44DC Volts or 12.5DC Volts. Amp input voltage is DC (direct current) and the output audio is AC (alternative current), therefore output AC current will not changed by the small different of input DC voltage. Of course, big different of input DC voltage will either destory Amp or does not work at all. You are just another ignorant guy on electronic knowledge. If DC voltage does not matter, why do the better amps take the DC voltage and change it to AC (alternating), then go through a transformer to step up the voltage, then change it back to DC voltage again, I believe about 64 volts DC (-32 volts and +32 volts), it may be different depending on amp (Chad may know that better than me) Firstly because it's easier to design push-pull amplifiers from a bi-polar supply, an amp designed around a single ended supply 12V must "float" it's "zero" at 6V then cap couple the output to get rid of DC. Kida like an OTL tube amp, not too popular Or they must use an output transformer. Also if looking at Ohm's law one would realize that it is difficult to derive lots of power from 12V unless insanely low speaker impedances are utilized. It Can be done but it is easier to use a higher voltage bipolar supply and common output devices designed to run at more sane current levels. RF transistors usually run at 12V in mobile ham amps, they can get tremendous power out of them, but the devices are inefficient and not good for audio. They also use a low to high impedance transformer after the finals, this would push the cost of an automotive amp up considerably due to the copper needed for the transformers, Keep in mind RF in in mHz and transformers are small with just a few windings. Much smaller than those torrids in power supplies that run in the hundreds of kHz. I hope this comes out right, I'm using google groups right now and hate it! Chad |
#62
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I haven't been here in awhile. I was TO-3 in another life.
You weren't nearly as ****y then. You sure you're not Lizard? |
#63
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Um...why would an amp run cooler if it's delivering more power? Are you
Mark, I swear to God sometimes I think you just try to be difficult. I mean, isn't it obvious. If I always listen to my music at a certain volume (wattage) level, let's say an average of 100 watts to the sub and I am getting 12 volts my amps will draw more current and be hotter than when I am getting 14.4 volts and listening to my 100 watts. Ohms law, right? I would think this would be really obvious. But maybe it's just me? Obviously wrong, perhaps. I don't think you're looking at the big picture here. Heat is proportional to power, not current. So 100 watts will dissipate the same amount of heat as 100 watts, regardless of what the supply voltage is. That's where your confusion comes from. Of course, there's a caveat: I'm making the assumption that the efficiency of the amp does not vary based on supply voltage. It turns out, for most unregulated or "loosely" regulated amps (which, last time I checked, tends to include most amplifiers), that this is a reasonably safe assumption. |
#64
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The amp will run cooler at 14.4 volts at 100 watts, because it will be
using less current. and current is what produces heat Come on, Joe. Pick up a thermodynamics text sometime. Or even an intro to physics text. Get the thermo text written by the guy with the dead cat on the cover. Schrodinger, illustrated. Anyway, if heat was produced directly by current, then superconductors would heat up the fastest, probably rendering them incapable of being superconductors. |
#65
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Just to put in my two cents:
Power = Work / Time Work = F * d * cos( @ ) Fc = m * v * v / r Thus E = m * c * c And no, I don't know if black holes are real. But I'm workin' on it! Hey, Bob, you're on the right track, man. Heat :: Energy. Power = time rate of energy. Current = charged particles (electrons, ions, etc) flowing per second (Coul/sec). Anyway, if we're interested in temperature, which I think we are (how did we get on this topic again?), then we're interested in the amount of heat produced and the ability of the object to dissipate the heat. Current can, of course, produce heat, but it's only through electrical power dissipation - i * r. |
#66
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Firstly because it's easier to design push-pull amplifiers from a
bi-polar supply, an amp designed around a single ended supply 12V must "float" it's "zero" at 6V then cap couple the output to get rid of DC. Kida like an OTL tube amp, not too popular Or they must use an output transformer. Also if looking at Ohm's law one would realize that it is difficult to derive lots of power from 12V unless insanely low speaker impedances are utilized. It Can be done but it is easier to use a higher voltage bipolar supply and common output devices designed to run at more sane current levels. RF transistors usually run at 12V in mobile ham amps, they can get tremendous power out of them, but the devices are inefficient and not good for audio. They also use a low to high impedance transformer after the finals, this would push the cost of an automotive amp up considerably due to the copper needed for the transformers, Keep in mind RF in in mHz and transformers are small with just a few windings. Much smaller than those torrids in power supplies that run in the hundreds of kHz. I hope this comes out right, I'm using google groups right now and hate it! Google groups is gaining popularity, but it still sucks royally. I heart OE! I know, I know. It's one of only two pieces of Microsoft software that I like. I use pine though when I'm telnet-ing to my server. So get a usenet service. I highly recommend giganews. Reliability is top notch. |
#67
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well, I sure did my share of tuning the place up as well. though some
people here acted in ways that I cannot understand, especially for grown adults, I am assuming everyone here is to be considered an adult, I too will apologize on behalf of stepping on toes by merely stating my experience with this particular subject. I am hoping the person who originally inquired about this has gotten something out of it more than seeing how battles erupt. there really was equal resistance (no pun intended) of opinion (for lack of better words considering no one with "proof" from either side wanted to hear about the "proof" from either side, therefore a "fact" was never proven and the whole conversation has squabbled itself down to opinion bashing). so, I guess from this point all the original questionee can do is experiment for his/her own self and find out what their "proof", or "opinion", is. good luck! Ah, now you're getting all philosophical. Is there such a thing as "facts"? Eh, we accept things to be facts until we can come up with enough evidence to say that something else is a fact. |
#68
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wrote in message oups.com... You are making up from your ignorant take-no-prisoner dumb brain. Thats a new one... Hey. At least his spelling is getting better. |
#69
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"MZ" wrote in message ... "proof", or "opinion", Ah, now you're getting all philosophical. Is there such a thing as "facts"? Eh, we accept things to be facts until we can come up with enough evidence to say that something else is a fact. Fact. My amps are rated differently at 12/14v. But personally (ie(Opinion)), I can't tell the difference.But then again I don't really use the stereo at any real volume longer than five minutes or so unless the car is running . |
#70
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MZ wrote:
I haven't been here in awhile. I was TO-3 in another life. You weren't nearly as ****y then. You sure you're not Lizard? ROFLMFAO ... shots at the Liz ... it's been too long :-) -- Dan Snooks |
#71
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"MZ" wrote in message ... Firstly because it's easier to design push-pull amplifiers from a bi-polar supply, an amp designed around a single ended supply 12V must "float" it's "zero" at 6V then cap couple the output to get rid of DC. Kida like an OTL tube amp, not too popular Or they must use an output transformer. Also if looking at Ohm's law one would realize that it is difficult to derive lots of power from 12V unless insanely low speaker impedances are utilized. It Can be done but it is easier to use a higher voltage bipolar supply and common output devices designed to run at more sane current levels. RF transistors usually run at 12V in mobile ham amps, they can get tremendous power out of them, but the devices are inefficient and not good for audio. They also use a low to high impedance transformer after the finals, this would push the cost of an automotive amp up considerably due to the copper needed for the transformers, Keep in mind RF in in mHz and transformers are small with just a few windings. Much smaller than those torrids in power supplies that run in the hundreds of kHz. I hope this comes out right, I'm using google groups right now and hate it! Google groups is gaining popularity, but it still sucks royally. I heart OE! I know, I know. It's one of only two pieces of Microsoft software that I like. I use pine though when I'm telnet-ing to my server. So get a usenet service. I highly recommend giganews. Reliability is top notch. PINE!!! Woo Hoo! Been a long time since I've used that! I use the university news server from where I work, we actually did away with our discreet one but share with another university. When I'm at home I use google because I have been too laxt to set up the server on the home PC. I will check out giganews as this one does not support binary groups and many I know post schematics that I want to check out.... Thanks for the heads up! Chad |
#72
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Wasn't it Schrodinger who said something like if a cat was in a box with
poison it is neither alive or dead till it is observed. are not superconductors supercooled? -- The Clown Prince of Car Stereo "MZ" wrote in message ... The amp will run cooler at 14.4 volts at 100 watts, because it will be using less current. and current is what produces heat Come on, Joe. Pick up a thermodynamics text sometime. Or even an intro to physics text. Get the thermo text written by the guy with the dead cat on the cover. , illustrated. Anyway, if heat was produced directly by current, then superconductors would heat up the fastest, probably rendering them incapable of being superconductors. |
#73
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"MZ" wrote in message ... Um...why would an amp run cooler if it's delivering more power? Are you Mark, I swear to God sometimes I think you just try to be difficult. I mean, isn't it obvious. If I always listen to my music at a certain volume (wattage) level, let's say an average of 100 watts to the sub and I am getting 12 volts my amps will draw more current and be hotter than when I am getting 14.4 volts and listening to my 100 watts. Ohms law, right? I would think this would be really obvious. But maybe it's just me? Obviously wrong, perhaps. I don't think you're looking at the big picture here. Heat is proportional to power, not current. So 100 watts will dissipate the same amount of heat as 100 watts, regardless of what the supply voltage is. That's where your confusion comes from. Of course, there's a caveat: I'm making the assumption that the efficiency of the amp does not vary based on supply voltage. It turns out, for most unregulated or "loosely" regulated amps (which, last time I checked, tends to include most amplifiers), that this is a reasonably safe assumption. Well, OK. I mean obviously you know more than I do about the physics of it all (I mean, I'm an MBA for God's sake!). And I can see the logic in 100 watts is 100 watts is 100 watts, that the same heat would be generated no matter what. But I know what I know and that my amp heated up so much (when it was only getting 11-12 volts) that the thermal protection circuit engaged several times and shut the thing down. With the new alternator producing 14.4 volts, this did not happen. So SOMETHING was going on. MOSFET |
#74
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You weren't nearly as ****y then. You sure you're not Lizard?
HAHAHAHA, nope. I still drop by from time to time, but usually don't post because there are many bright people here, now. It's like first come, first serve you know. No sense in being the 5th person to answer a question with the same answer. I just turned 30 last week, so now I am officially a "Grumpy Old Man"!!! |
#75
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(I mean, I'm an MBA for God's sake!).
AHHHH, so that's your problem. I'm sorry for everything negative that I said to you before. I mean, it's obvious, you can't help it................ |
#76
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Wasn't it Schrodinger who said something like if a cat was in a box with
poison it is neither alive or dead till it is observed. are not superconductors supercooled? Of course. But it would be extremely difficult to supercool them if heat was being generated by the current alone, without factoring in the resistance (ie. power = i*r). It's hard enough as it is to, say, run the magnet in an MRI facility. It would take a whole building just to cool it if the laws of physics didn't dictate that heat is a product of power. |
#77
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Well, OK. I mean obviously you know more than I do about the physics of
it all (I mean, I'm an MBA for God's sake!). And I can see the logic in 100 watts is 100 watts is 100 watts, that the same heat would be generated no matter what. But I know what I know and that my amp heated up so much (when it was only getting 11-12 volts) that the thermal protection circuit engaged several times and shut the thing down. With the new alternator producing 14.4 volts, this did not happen. So SOMETHING was going on. 11 volts might explain it. When you're close to the limits of operation, things can be funky. |
#78
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But it would be extremely difficult to supercool them if heat
was being generated by the current alone, without factoring in the resistance (ie. power = i*r). M, Shouldn't that be P= I^2*R? |
#79
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But it would be extremely difficult to supercool them if heat
was being generated by the current alone, without factoring in the resistance (ie. power = i*r). M, Shouldn't that be P= I^2*R? Yep. Thanks. |
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