[Chris/Power Salad]

Just added this for VO work - but no matter how hot the input seems to
be on the box, the max level I can get in either Sound Forge or
Goldwave is -6dB. Updated drivers, firmware, all is up to date and
correct...Somewhere in the manual it says that the default setting is
for the output to be attenuated by 6dB - is this referring to the 8
1/4" outputs on the box itself or the digital output going thru the
firewire? Nothing else refers to this situation, nor can I find
anything on the Web - help?? TIA.

[Peter Larsen]

Chris/Power Salad wrote:

Just added this for VO work - but no matter how hot the input
seems to be on the box,

What is the status indication on the software mixer and is there a
setting there that reduces the level?


Peter Larsen

[Chris/Power Salad]

Everything in the software interface for the 410 is at max, all
"faders" etc. Tried it in both SF and Goldwave so I know it's not the
program, but am not getting nearly as hot signals recorded as I had
when using a Behringer board and a Roland USB interface, even when the
box is peaking, I can't record any hotter than -6dB. Any way I can get
more gain would be great, unless that's it, in which case....

[Mike Rivers]

Chris/Power Salad wrote:
Everything in the software interface for the 410 is at max, all
"faders" etc. Tried it in both SF and Goldwave so I know it's not the
program, but am not getting nearly as hot signals recorded as I had
when using a Behringer board and a Roland USB interface, even when the
box is peaking, I can't record any hotter than -6dB.

You said the manual said something about this?

I suppose that it wouldn't be out of the question that they set the
input sensitivity of the A/D stage so that the analog clipping level
corresponds to -6 dBFS. This would prevent what most people are afriad
of - digital clipping. Though you could get analog clipping trying to
achieve full scale peaks. There may be an internal jumper that "fixes"
this for those who are keen enough to properly set recording level.

I would suggest contacting M-Audio, but nobody seems to have much luck
getting real technical info from any of the high-volume-low-cost
manufacturers these days, or they live in Outer Bivalvenia where long
distance phone charges are exhorbitant.

However, I'd suggest that you not worry about this as long as your
recordings aren't distorted and there's no indication that anything
else is wrong. 6 dB is a good safety margin. These days, it's expected
that every finished product will be "mastered" to some extent or other,
and that's where you can increase the peak level to full scale (as well
as push up the average level). You're only giving up one bit by leaving
6 dB margin, and with 24-bit recording, that's still at least 20 dB
below the noise level.

[Chris/Power Salad]

On 12 Dec 2006 15:27:53 -0800, "Mike Rivers"
wrote:

However, I'd suggest that you not worry about this as long as your
recordings aren't distorted and there's no indication that anything
else is wrong. 6 dB is a good safety margin. These days, it's expected
that every finished product will be "mastered" to some extent or other,
and that's where you can increase the peak level to full scale (as well
as push up the average level). You're only giving up one bit by leaving
6 dB margin, and with 24-bit recording, that's still at least 20 dB
below the noise level.

If I was getting that in the overall that'd be great, but the actual
average level of my VOs is now like -21 to -15, with the
aforementioned -6 peaks being only when the clip light on the box
comes on (during testing with an aggressive "CHECK - CHECK", which of
course I only did like once) but at my normal speaking level it's WAY
below that. I can always raise it thru compression as you said, but
I'm just a little concerned that I was getting better and hotter
recordings with older/cheaper equipment, this even makes my AT4040
sound a bit muddy. No idea, perhaps I should've saved up for a
Voicemaster Pro or whatever that box is...I'm still stumped, as I know
of another VO guy in my area who is using the M-Audio Solo and doing
very well evidently, I figured it'd use the same or better
pre's...again, no idea, but I may have to go back to the other method
for now...

Thanks for the reply.

[Peter Larsen]

Chris/Power Salad wrote:

If I was getting that in the overall that'd be great, but the actual
average level of my VOs is now like -21 to -15, with the
aforementioned -6 peaks being only when the clip light on the box
comes on (during testing with an aggressive "CHECK - CHECK", which of
course I only did like once) but at my normal speaking level it's WAY
below that. I can always raise it thru compression as you said, but

You don't need compression to raise level. How about putting some energy
into contacting M-Audio support and asking them?


Peter Larsen

[Mike Rivers]

Chris/Power Salad wrote:

If I was getting that in the overall that'd be great, but the actual
average level of my VOs is now like -21 to -15, with the
aforementioned -6 peaks being only when the clip light on the box
comes on (during testing with an aggressive "CHECK - CHECK", which of
course I only did like once)

OK, pretty much confirms my suspicion that the A/D input sensitivity is
set to be "digital safe" rather than allowing it to reach full scale.
This is pretty dumb IMHO, so either there's simply something wroing
with your interface or there's a button or a jumper on there somewhere
that you can use to change that. This sounds like a job for M-Audio
Tech Support. And thank you for not asking "Is this normal?".

It would be helpful if you could perform a more scientific test than
just yelling "CHECK" until the red light comes on. Do you have a signal
generator? Or a keyboard that you can wedge down a key and get a steady
tone? Many DAW programs have a waveform generator function that allows
you to make a WAV file of a steady sine wave that you can burn on a CD
and use a CD player as a generator.

Anyway, connect a steady tone to the line input, adjust the input level
control on the interface so the red light just comes on (according to
the manual, this is 3 dB below the clip level) and record the tone.
Read the DAW's meter and look at the level in the waveform view. That
will tell you what's really happening.

It's possible that you're just a victim of crappy metering (two LEDs on
the M-Audio box doesn't make it very easy to set the input level)
and/or not enough mic preamp gain. Or there could be something wrong,
or unusual about the hardware.

I know that people are reluctant to turn a knob up all the way, but
what happens when you do that on the FW-410? Can you get the red light
to flash on peaks of your normal voiceover voice? If not, you don't
have enough gain. What you really need to know isn't in the spec
sheet. "66 dB available preamp gain" doesn't mean much without knowing
how this relates to the digital level.

[Chris/Power Salad]

I can certainly do some further testing and contacting support (and I
realize saying CHECK was only the quick & dirty method, I do have a
synth I can use to generate a tone), however it appears simply that
this box isn't for me, it seems to be coloring the tone of my mic in
ways that my previous cheepo audio chain didn't. When I was recording
"CHECK", the clip light on the 410 was lighting up but the wave in SF
stopped at -6 and was distorted (analog from the input stage)., so
something seemed mismatched.

I appreciate all the info from everyone, if I don't get some sort of
fix from M-Audio I suppose I'll go back to my old chain til I can get
a better FW box - any suggestions? Some use the Focusrite Voicemaster
Pro, which of course is more expensive than this but might do it...I
am about to start a large audiobook job and wanted to have a more
solid chain as sometimes the UA-30 USB box would skipip from time to
time...

Thanks again for the insight...


CM