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#1
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trying to "reverse engineer" sounds with great difficulty!
Perhaps you pros could give me some advice and tips. I have been trying to
recreate some of the sound effects from an old tv soundtrack I have. I can't just record directly because the original tracks are too noisy (and noise filtering hasn't worked), plus I don't want the new sounds to be an exact copy. The way I have been trying to go about my recreation is to attempt to match the original frequencies of the sound with modern musical instruments of a similar pattern. The original track is used as a "vocoder" for the modern instrument, which tends to filter out everything but "portions" of the original sound, depending on "how close" the modern instrument notes are to the original. However, this very slow approach has been hit and miss. The original tracks have so many harmonics that I can't seem to mix the modern instruments properly to "match" it. This has been a project I have been working on for quite some time and I am running out of time. I've tried various other things... convolution, which didn't get me anywhere, noise reduction applied somewhat like the above with the vocoder (but still not getting too far), etc.etc. Someone once told me that it is impossible to recreate an orchestra without the orchestra (in other words, it is next to impossible to do all digitally), and I am starting to believe that. So, how do I do this. I have an original tv sound that's very weak on a tv soundtrack; I need to recreate this as closely as possible but I don't have access to an orchestra or synth, but I do have an electric guitar and some music samples. How in the world can I figure out or calculate the notes and harmonics I need for the recreation? When I look at FFT graphs of the original sound effect, there are just too many notes to count; when I try to apply the aforementioned methods, I tend to make a small "dent" in the graph and that's all with the sound very very flat. This has become quite frustrating and I wish there was a better way. Perhaps there is which is why I am asking. Thanks, in advance, for any tips or advice. Jayson Peterson |
#2
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On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 00:28:13 GMT, "Jayson Peterson"
wrote: I have been trying to recreate some of the sound effects from an old tv soundtrack I have. I can't just record directly because the original tracks are too noisy (and noise filtering hasn't worked), plus I don't want the new sounds to be an exact copy. The way I have been trying to go about my recreation is to attempt to match the original frequencies of the sound with modern musical instruments of a similar pattern. This is a musical score you're trying to recreate? Your question doesn't use the word "music" :-) Perhaps it should. This may be a job for a musician, not an engineer. CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm "Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect |
#3
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"Laurence Payne" wrote in message ... On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 00:28:13 GMT, "Jayson Peterson" wrote: I have been trying to recreate some of the sound effects from an old tv soundtrack I have. I can't just record directly because the original tracks are too noisy (and noise filtering hasn't worked), plus I don't want the new sounds to be an exact copy. The way I have been trying to go about my recreation is to attempt to match the original frequencies of the sound with modern musical instruments of a similar pattern. This is a musical score you're trying to recreate? Your question doesn't use the word "music" :-) Perhaps it should. This may be a job for a musician, not an engineer. Well, I think that's the point of my question: sound redesign. The original effects were, in fact, musical in nature but the instruments were modified to produce the effect required. I am trying to recreate the effects by, in essence, using a "fingerprint" to rescore modern instruments to produce the desired effect. However, so far my efforts have not been successful which is why I was looking for suggestions. I would have thought that at least one digital application might suffice like vocoding, convolution, etc but so far not. My next step, unless I get some suggestions here, is to use two speakers to try and zero beat the frequencies of the original audio effect and the instrument note I want to use. If I zero beat enough frequencies, I may end up producing a similar sound to the original but this is going to take a LOT of time. Jayson CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm "Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect |
#4
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On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 11:46:26 GMT, Jayson Peterson
wrote: job for a musician, not an engineer. Well, I think that's the point of my question: sound redesign. The original effects were, in fact, musical in nature but the instruments were modified to produce the effect required. I am trying to recreate the effects by, in essence, using a "fingerprint" to rescore modern instruments to produce the desired effect. However, so far my efforts have not been successful which is why I was looking for suggestions. I would have thought that at least one digital application might suffice like vocoding, convolution, etc but so far not. My next step, unless I get some suggestions here, is to use two speakers to try and zero beat the frequencies of the original audio effect and the instrument note I want to use. If I zero beat enough frequencies, I may end up producing a similar sound to the original but this is going to take a LOT of time. You might want to give us some specific examples. Lotsa things are much simpler than you might think. Listen to the Rite of Spring, you might think, "How does he make an oboe sound like that?" when really it's a bassoon played up in the nosebleed range. What you're proposing doing is HORRIBLY complex, and probably not worth the effort. But the solution you seek may, in fact, be much simpler than any you've considered up until now. |
#5
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"U-CDK_CHARLES\Charles" "Charles wrote in message news:4h6id.6538$o52.820@trndny03... On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 11:46:26 GMT, Jayson Peterson wrote: job for a musician, not an engineer. Well, I think that's the point of my question: sound redesign. The original effects were, in fact, musical in nature but the instruments were modified to produce the effect required. I am trying to recreate the effects by, in essence, using a "fingerprint" to rescore modern instruments to produce the desired effect. However, so far my efforts have not been successful which is why I was looking for suggestions. I would have thought that at least one digital application might suffice like vocoding, convolution, etc but so far not. My next step, unless I get some suggestions here, is to use two speakers to try and zero beat the frequencies of the original audio effect and the instrument note I want to use. If I zero beat enough frequencies, I may end up producing a similar sound to the original but this is going to take a LOT of time. You might want to give us some specific examples. Lotsa things are much simpler than you might think. From what I can tell, the sounds may in fact be something as simple as a musical instrument "modulated" or combined. Unfortunately, the samples would be pretty long but I'll try and see if I can compress them sufficiently. Listen to the Rite of Spring, you might think, "How does he make an oboe sound like that?" when really it's a bassoon played up in the nosebleed range. What you're proposing doing is HORRIBLY complex, and probably not worth the effort. Yes it is. I've actually been down the path many times. I could literally zero beat every note and then "convolve" the note to sound like it did in the original recording, but this takes many months to do properly. One thing that does seem to help is if I have something generating harmonics that are somewhat close to the original, then I can start making progress. But the solution you seek may, in fact, be much simpler than any you've considered up until now. That's what I'm hoping for. Jayson |
#6
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On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 11:46:26 GMT, "Jayson Peterson"
wrote: The original effects were, in fact, musical in nature but the instruments were modified to produce the effect required. I am trying to recreate the effects by, in essence, using a "fingerprint" to rescore modern instruments to produce the desired effect. However, so far my efforts have not been successful which is why I was looking for suggestions. We're not going to get any further until we hear what you're talking about, I think. What old TV program? Can you post some examples on a web page? I suspect there may be a more simple solution to this than you envisage. CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm "Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect |
#7
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"Jayson Peterson" wrote in message hlink.net...
"U-CDK_CHARLES\Charles" "Charles wrote in message news:4h6id.6538$o52.820@trndny03... From what I can tell, the sounds may in fact be something as simple as a musical instrument "modulated" or combined. There's a recurring event in a piece from Mike Gibbs _The Only Chrome Waterfall Orchestra_ album that used to fascinate me for its sonic complexity & unique timbral signature. Turns out to be a tenor sax & a flugelhorn playing two notes a half-step apart at the extreme upper end of their register. Ask an electronic sound designer to recreate that, and they'd be tweaking knobs & parameters for months, trying to replicate the intricate twisting mobius strip of harmonics that results. Ask an arranger to recreate that and they'd reach for their phonebook & have a couple Local 802 horn players nail it in 5 minutes. I could literally zero beat every note and then "convolve" the note to sound like it did in the original recording, but this takes many months to do properly. One thing that does seem to help is if I have something generating harmonics that are somewhat close to the original, then I can start making progress. What is this verb "to zero beat" that you're using? I've never heard that expression. |
#8
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"Bob Ross" wrote in message om... "Jayson Peterson" wrote in message hlink.net... "U-CDK_CHARLES\Charles" "Charles wrote in message news:4h6id.6538$o52.820@trndny03... From what I can tell, the sounds may in fact be something as simple as a musical instrument "modulated" or combined. There's a recurring event in a piece from Mike Gibbs _The Only Chrome Waterfall Orchestra_ album that used to fascinate me for its sonic complexity & unique timbral signature. Turns out to be a tenor sax & a flugelhorn playing two notes a half-step apart at the extreme upper end of their register. Ask an electronic sound designer to recreate that, and they'd be tweaking knobs & parameters for months, trying to replicate the intricate twisting mobius strip of harmonics that results. Ask an arranger to recreate that and they'd reach for their phonebook & have a couple Local 802 horn players nail it in 5 minutes. You know, I think that's really the answer, that of having it recreated live by players, but I can't figure out why that would be so much different than me creating it by design? I guess the harmonics, etc combine in "live" ways that you could never achieve in sound design. I could literally zero beat every note and then "convolve" the note to sound like it did in the original recording, but this takes many months to do properly. One thing that does seem to help is if I have something generating harmonics that are somewhat close to the original, then I can start making progress. What is this verb "to zero beat" that you're using? I've never heard that expression. I guess you could call this phasing or shifting. Certain frequencies of each sound tend to cancel when they are close/ identical in pitch. Changing the one sounds phase helps cancelling much better. Once the notes of the sound I want are matched to the original, I can use whatever notes matched. Obviously, this is a very slow and tedious process! |
#10
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"Ben Bradley" wrote in message ... On 4 Nov 2004 04:30:28 -0800, (Bob Ross) wrote: "Jayson Peterson" wrote in message hlink.net... "U-CDK_CHARLES\Charles" "Charles wrote in message news:4h6id.6538$o52.820@trndny03... I could literally zero beat every note and then "convolve" the note to sound like it did in the original recording, but this takes many months to do properly. One thing that does seem to help is if I have something generating harmonics that are somewhat close to the original, then I can start making progress. What is this verb "to zero beat" that you're using? I've never heard that expression. I suppose it's an old amateur radio term, to tune an oscillator to something like a WWV transmitter standard frequency. If you listen on a receiver, as two similar-strength frequencies get within about 10 Hz of each other, the background noise goes in and out at the difference frequency, so it's easy to tune an oscillator to within a fraction of a Hz of the other. Tuning a musical instrument to a frequency standard (or a pitch on a recording as Jayson os apparently discussing) is done in a similar way, changing the pitch of one so it matches the other without any 'phasing' or 'chorusing.' That's correct and you explained it better than I did above. The frequencies aren't phasing, they're matching. This can be done with two different speakers, feeding one with the original signal and the other with the sound I am trying to match to the original. Then, I change the pitch of either until they are both matched. I guess this is old fashioned and comes from Ham radio days, but I know in fact that sound effects from the past have been lifted from Ham radio frequencies. There is a peculiar modulation, for example, found within the 80 meter Ham band that is identical to the Star Trek hand phaser sound from the 1960s series, or the CHU Canada time station tones used in several of the original Star Wars movies. Jayson ----- http://mindspring.com/~benbradley |
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