[David Grant]

I'm trying to accompany my friend on his guitar/vocal album with a shaker. I
never imagined such a simple looking instrument would be so hard to play.
I've put in 8 hours of solid practice and listening back to recordings my
consistency and timing are all over the place.

How long can a pianist of 20 years expect this to take? I don't want to
become a master percussionist, I just want to be able to record a solid
shaker track.

[Don Pearce]

David Grant wrote:
I'm trying to accompany my friend on his guitar/vocal album with a shaker. I
never imagined such a simple looking instrument would be so hard to play.
I've put in 8 hours of solid practice and listening back to recordings my
consistency and timing are all over the place.

How long can a pianist of 20 years expect this to take? I don't want to
become a master percussionist, I just want to be able to record a solid
shaker track.


If you have someone with you to show you the trick, about another hour.
If you haven't, it may take weeks. Ever cast a dry fly? If so, you do it
a bit like that.

d

[philicorda[_6_]]

On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 12:37:13 -0400, David Grant wrote:

I'm trying to accompany my friend on his guitar/vocal album with a
shaker. I never imagined such a simple looking instrument would be so
hard to play. I've put in 8 hours of solid practice and listening back
to recordings my consistency and timing are all over the place.

How long can a pianist of 20 years expect this to take? I don't want to
become a master percussionist, I just want to be able to record a solid
shaker track.

It's not an easy instrument to play properly.
Also, if the guitar is not to click and you are overdubbing the shaker
then it's much much harder than if the guitar and percussion are played
at the same time.

If I do shaker parts myself as overdubs then it's either on stuff with a
click (so I can get loops), or I record about three takes and pick the
parts of the takes that feel right. This is somewhat tedious.

Are you playing it from the elbow or from the wrist?
I'm no expert but I find that like tambourine it's better to keep the
wrist straight.

There are 15 videos about playing the shaker he
http://www.expertvillage.com/video-s...percussion.htm
I just googled for this, and I've only watched one but they look pretty
useful.

[hank alrich]

David Grant wrote:

I'm trying to accompany my friend on his guitar/vocal album with a shaker. I
never imagined such a simple looking instrument would be so hard to play.
I've put in 8 hours of solid practice and listening back to recordings my
consistency and timing are all over the place.

How long can a pianist of 20 years expect this to take? I don't want to
become a master percussionist, I just want to be able to record a solid
shaker track.

I almost hate to tell you this, but a shaker is a percussion instrument
and if you want a masterful part you need the skills of a master
percussionist.

Turn it over: were you a master percussionist who wanted a reasonably
simple but perfect piano part, how long do you think it would take you
to learn to play piano well enough to do that?

--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

[Scott Dorsey]

hank alrich wrote:

Turn it over: were you a master percussionist who wanted a reasonably
simple but perfect piano part, how long do you think it would take you
to learn to play piano well enough to do that?

With mallets or brushes?
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[David Grant]

"hank alrich" wrote in message
...
David Grant wrote:

I'm trying to accompany my friend on his guitar/vocal album with a
shaker. I
never imagined such a simple looking instrument would be so hard to play.
I've put in 8 hours of solid practice and listening back to recordings my
consistency and timing are all over the place.

How long can a pianist of 20 years expect this to take? I don't want to
become a master percussionist, I just want to be able to record a solid
shaker track.

I almost hate to tell you this, but a shaker is a percussion instrument
and if you want a masterful part you need the skills of a master
percussionist.


I do know a few people who've managed to become decent at multiple
instruments though they're far from being masters. They can lay down a track
and though it won't be perfect or incredibly expressive, it will fill its
role in the recording without the listener being drawn to the terrible
timing/tuning/whatever.

Turn it over: were you a master percussionist who wanted a reasonably
simple but perfect piano part, how long do you think it would take you
to learn to play piano well enough to do that?

Hard to know... and perhaps I'm naive, but I would guess less than 75 hours
of intensive practice.

[Greg Boboski]

Well , if you're not happy with it ..............
good enough is a hard thing to say

and will you be around to tweak or try to fix the
track later ?
If you're overdubbing it won't cost him time , then perhaps
no harm to try and if your's isn't close enough have a name
ready so he isn't stuck .
This isn't a situation of politness including you is it ?

Here you get yo practice your best producer skills
good luck




"David Grant" wrote in message
...

"hank alrich" wrote in message
...
David Grant wrote:

I'm trying to accompany my friend on his guitar/vocal album with a
shaker. I
never imagined such a simple looking instrument would be so hard to
play.
I've put in 8 hours of solid practice and listening back to recordings
my
consistency and timing are all over the place.

How long can a pianist of 20 years expect this to take? I don't want to
become a master percussionist, I just want to be able to record a solid
shaker track.

I almost hate to tell you this, but a shaker is a percussion instrument
and if you want a masterful part you need the skills of a master
percussionist.


I do know a few people who've managed to become decent at multiple
instruments though they're far from being masters. They can lay down a
track and though it won't be perfect or incredibly expressive, it will
fill its role in the recording without the listener being drawn to the
terrible timing/tuning/whatever.

Turn it over: were you a master percussionist who wanted a reasonably
simple but perfect piano part, how long do you think it would take you
to learn to play piano well enough to do that?

Hard to know... and perhaps I'm naive, but I would guess less than 75
hours of intensive practice.

[Mike Rivers]

Scott Dorsey wrote:
hank alrich wrote:
Turn it over: were you a master percussionist who wanted a reasonably
simple but perfect piano part, how long do you think it would take you
to learn to play piano well enough to do that?

With mallets or brushes?

When it comes to trying to play the piano, I can never remember which
end to blow into.


--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[Tobiah]

On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 12:37:13 -0400, David Grant wrote:

I'm trying to accompany my friend on his guitar/vocal album with a shaker. I
never imagined such a simple looking instrument would be so hard to play.
I've put in 8 hours of solid practice and listening back to recordings my
consistency and timing are all over the place.

I haven't spent a lot of time with this, but I do have some
of the little egg shaped shakers. I noticed that the cycle
of movement of the arm is out of phase with the beat of the
noise coming from the shaker. When you strike a piano key,
you expect to get the sound at the bottom end of your arm or
finger stroke. With the shaker, this is simply the point at
which the pellets inside start to move from one side to the
other, some small time after which, they begin the attack.

It's a little like playing while monitoring through a soundcard
with say 100ms latency. The trick is to listen to the sound,
rather than the arm. It takes concentration.

The other thing to note, is that sometimes the initial beads
hitting the other side of the container don't create what
we perceive as the attack, or the 'on the beat' portion of
the activity. It's possible for instance to lead up to the
note (think shhhhip! shhhip!) where the relationship between
the perceived beat and the position of the arm is even more
complex.

Again, detach your mind from the arm, and zone in on the sound.

I too was quite surprised that I couldn't just pick one of
these up and make convincing and interesting percussion fills.


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

[Tobiah]

to learn to play piano well enough to do that?

With mallets or brushes?

When it comes to trying to play the piano, I can never remember which
end to blow into.

It depends on whether it is a European piano.

** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

[hank alrich]

Scott Dorsey wrote:

hank alrich wrote:

Turn it over: were you a master percussionist who wanted a reasonably
simple but perfect piano part, how long do you think it would take you
to learn to play piano well enough to do that?

With mallets or brushes?
--scott

Thanks for making my point... g

--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

[Bill Ruys]

"Tobiah" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 12:37:13 -0400, David Grant wrote:

I'm trying to accompany my friend on his guitar/vocal album with a
shaker. I
never imagined such a simple looking instrument would be so hard to play.
I've put in 8 hours of solid practice and listening back to recordings my
consistency and timing are all over the place.

I haven't spent a lot of time with this, but I do have some
of the little egg shaped shakers. I noticed that the cycle
of movement of the arm is out of phase with the beat of the
noise coming from the shaker. When you strike a piano key,
you expect to get the sound at the bottom end of your arm or
finger stroke. With the shaker, this is simply the point at
which the pellets inside start to move from one side to the
other, some small time after which, they begin the attack.

It's a little like playing while monitoring through a soundcard
with say 100ms latency. The trick is to listen to the sound,
rather than the arm. It takes concentration.

The other thing to note, is that sometimes the initial beads
hitting the other side of the container don't create what
we perceive as the attack, or the 'on the beat' portion of
the activity. It's possible for instance to lead up to the
note (think shhhhip! shhhip!) where the relationship between
the perceived beat and the position of the arm is even more
complex.

Again, detach your mind from the arm, and zone in on the sound.

I too was quite surprised that I couldn't just pick one of
these up and make convincing and interesting percussion fills.


Tobiah has hit the nail on the head. Basically the attack of the shaker is
not in sync with the apex of your arm movement. You need to learn to cope
with this discrepancy, (which will be different for every shaker). As a
drummer, it took me a few minutes to figure this out and be able to lock
onto the beat. But for me, the experience was like learning "independence"
again.

We have a multi-instrumentalist who often plays with our band. The guy is a
seasoned pro and skillful on guitar, flute, harmonica, etc, but I cringe
every time he picks up a shaker. Not everyone can get it.

Bill.


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

[Les Cargill]

Bill Ruys wrote:
"Tobiah" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 12:37:13 -0400, David Grant wrote:

I'm trying to accompany my friend on his guitar/vocal album with a
shaker. I
never imagined such a simple looking instrument would be so hard to play.
I've put in 8 hours of solid practice and listening back to recordings my
consistency and timing are all over the place.
I haven't spent a lot of time with this, but I do have some
of the little egg shaped shakers. I noticed that the cycle
of movement of the arm is out of phase with the beat of the
noise coming from the shaker. When you strike a piano key,
you expect to get the sound at the bottom end of your arm or
finger stroke. With the shaker, this is simply the point at
which the pellets inside start to move from one side to the
other, some small time after which, they begin the attack.

It's a little like playing while monitoring through a soundcard
with say 100ms latency. The trick is to listen to the sound,
rather than the arm. It takes concentration.

The other thing to note, is that sometimes the initial beads
hitting the other side of the container don't create what
we perceive as the attack, or the 'on the beat' portion of
the activity. It's possible for instance to lead up to the
note (think shhhhip! shhhip!) where the relationship between
the perceived beat and the position of the arm is even more
complex.

Again, detach your mind from the arm, and zone in on the sound.

I too was quite surprised that I couldn't just pick one of
these up and make convincing and interesting percussion fills.


Tobiah has hit the nail on the head. Basically the attack of the shaker is
not in sync with the apex of your arm movement. You need to learn to cope
with this discrepancy, (which will be different for every shaker). As a
drummer, it took me a few minutes to figure this out and be able to lock
onto the beat. But for me, the experience was like learning "independence"
again.


The thing sounds its best behind the beat, anyway.

We have a multi-instrumentalist who often plays with our band. The guy is a
seasoned pro and skillful on guitar, flute, harmonica, etc, but I cringe
every time he picks up a shaker. Not everyone can get it.

Bill.


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

--
Les Cargill

[jakdedert]

Mike Rivers wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote:
hank alrich wrote:
Turn it over: were you a master percussionist who wanted a reasonably
simple but perfect piano part, how long do you think it would take you
to learn to play piano well enough to do that?

With mallets or brushes?

When it comes to trying to play the piano, I can never remember which
end to blow into.


I have recorded a piano played with mallets. With the sustain pedal
depressed, it built into kind of a melodic background 'rolling thunder'
kind of effect. Kind of unique...not my idea, though.

jak

[Badmuts]

Apart from all the other good advice about listening and decoupling your
arm: just shake it much harder. Try it, you'll find you'll get way more
control over the attack.

Now if only i could learn to play a really well-timed tambourine part. It's
not a much different technique but i suck at it...

[Joe Kotroczo]

On 28/08/08 3:27, in article ,
"jakdedert" wrote:

Mike Rivers wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote:
hank alrich wrote:
Turn it over: were you a master percussionist who wanted a reasonably
simple but perfect piano part, how long do you think it would take you
to learn to play piano well enough to do that?

With mallets or brushes?

When it comes to trying to play the piano, I can never remember which
end to blow into.


I have recorded a piano played with mallets. With the sustain pedal
depressed, it built into kind of a melodic background 'rolling thunder'
kind of effect. Kind of unique...not my idea, though.

Does it sound like a cimbalom?

--
Joe Kotroczo

[Les Cargill]

Badmuts wrote:
Apart from all the other good advice about listening and decoupling your
arm: just shake it much harder. Try it, you'll find you'll get way more
control over the attack.

Now if only i could learn to play a really well-timed tambourine part. It's
not a much different technique but i suck at it...




Tambourine is *tough*. "Standing In The Shadows" shows how it should be
done... by Jack Ashford.

Might seem silly, but it made a *huge* difference on those arrangements.

--
Les Cargill