Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #41   Report Post  
Stewart Pinkerton
 
Posts: n/a
Default weakest Link in the Chain

On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 03:15:36 GMT, Lawrence Leung
wrote:

chung wrote in :

Lawrence Leung wrote:

Have you published any science paper? Have you published any book? In
regarding to audiophile topic(s)? There are millions of real
audiophiles in the world are agreeing on cable theory, only you and
your dozen experienced audiophile refuse to accept.


What exactly is "cable theory" as applied to audio? How do you come up
with "millions"?


Cable theory? Go to your local book store and start looking for it, they
have plenty; Or search the Net, plenty of independent individual gave out
objective point of view on cables.


Utter garbage! There is *no such thing* as 'cable theory', aside from
obvious physical effects of RLC variations. There is of course a whole
raft of pseudoscientific technobabble on the websites of Cardas, Tara
Labs et al, but this is not scientific theory, merely smoke and
mirrors concealing large vats of snake oil.

Millions? Minus you, we have millions.


I doubt if the so-called 'high end' cable industry sells to more than
a few thousand benighted souls at most, worldwide. I note that not one
single audiophile of your 'millions' has even *attempted* to claim the
$4k pool for the 'cable challenge', despite all the claims of 'night
and day' differences that even wives can hear from the kitchen.......
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering
  #43   Report Post  
Lawrence Leung
 
Posts: n/a
Default weakest Link in the Chain

Hi, Chung,

A good way to start reading will be "The complete guide to High-End Audio
(second edition)" by Robert Harley, editor-in-chief of The Absolute Sound
and The Perfect Vision Magazines.

It is a very objective book. In regarding to cables, he has some
interesting comments.

I personally don't believe in high dollar cables will automatically give
better sound. The ultimate purpose of a Hi-Fi system is one word:
"transparent", like the singer is singing right in front of you in your
listening room, like the whole orchestra came to your listening room to
perform in front of you.

Cables cannot make any source sound better, the best it can do is to 100%
translate the music from that source. Now, tell me, as a linkage between
the amplifier and speakers, or linkage between your preamp and amplifier,
or linkage between your source to your preamp. Should we pay more
attention to that? Or just stuff them with some cheap copper wire? The
choice is yours.

Typically I think 5% of my budget on cable is an absoulte minimum, but I
would not go more than 15% of my entire budget. But I have to admit that,
the marketing stategy play a very important role, sometime I just can't
resist myself to buy a very good package and nice cable outfit cable, and
came up it didn't sound even close to my expectation. But that would not
draw me to a conclusion that "wire is wire", because they are not!

Difference wire material has its own characteristic, I will choose the
right one to fit into my other components. I even switch interconnect
when I switch listening from vocal to instrument music.

I hope I won't offense you in anyway. If I did, I didn't intense to do
that, but please still accept my apology.

Lawrence Leung

  #44   Report Post  
Jón Fairbairn
 
Posts: n/a
Default weakest Link in the Chain

(Stewart Pinkerton) writes:

On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 18:19:25 GMT,

wrote:

Your first
paragraph implies that bell wire can be heard, which goes
some short way towards answering my question, but where is
the limit of detectability for that sort of sillyiness? How
little resistance -- in particular current dependent
resistance -- can be detected? How much
inductance/capacitance?


It does depend on the listener, but experience suggests
that level differences around 0.5-1 dB can be heard by
most listeners.


Thanks. I suppose it depends a fair bit on the amplifier and
speaker as to what effect a series resistance has on the
shape ultimate output.

I have no idea what you mean by 'current-dependent
resistance',


Like a varistor or for that matter a light bulb. If you put
10A through a piece of really thin wire it will warm up, so
its resistance will increase -- so one could argue that such
wire might not sound the same as a pure series resistor.

but capacitance has no effect in a speaker cable,


... at the sort of levels you might expect in wires? I think
if I put a 100µF capacitor in parallel with the speaker
terminals something might be noticed :-)

and inductance simply rolls off the highs, although I've
not actually heard any difference even with a 3dB droop at
20kHz, which is a *very* extreme situation.


That is interesting. I /would/ have expected that to be
detectable (although not by anyone my age, alas).

--
Jón Fairbairn


  #45   Report Post  
Lawrence Leung
 
Posts: n/a
Default weakest Link in the Chain

chung wrote in :

I have also seen plenty of independent individuals gave out objective
views on incarnation, creationism, big-foot, UFO's, etc. Some even
claim that Elvis still walks among us.


Hah! May be he does.

BTW, do you think those individuals have the *same* theory on cables?
What about Stewart's theory, which is shared by a lot of people, that
there is absolutely no need to pay more than Radio Shack cables?


Stewart's so called "theory" (theory by defintion is being proven, his
hasn't) only shared by his friends. If you believe that, good, you will
save a lot of money from now on. I want to believe , but after I experience
that, I can't.

Millions? Minus you, we have millions.


Still waiting to hear from you how you arrived at "millions". I guess
we won't hold our collective breath...


Millions? I don't know, educated guess? Might be billions! Its like how
many "audiophile" here in the world?

Lawrence Leung



  #46   Report Post  
chung
 
Posts: n/a
Default weakest Link in the Chain

Lawrence Leung wrote:

Hi, Chung,

A good way to start reading will be "The complete guide to High-End Audio
(second edition)" by Robert Harley, editor-in-chief of The Absolute Sound
and The Perfect Vision Magazines.

It is a very objective book. In regarding to cables, he has some
interesting comments.


So, some questions for you, is Mr. Harley an electrical engineer or
physicist? Does he have a cable theory, or is he just passing out his
opinions? What does he say about budget for cables?


I personally don't believe in high dollar cables will automatically give
better sound.


So why not put down Home Depot or Radio Shack cables?

The ultimate purpose of a Hi-Fi system is one word:
"transparent", like the singer is singing right in front of you in your
listening room, like the whole orchestra came to your listening room to
perform in front of you.


Transparency in a cable is extremely easy to accomplish.


Cables cannot make any source sound better, the best it can do is to 100%
translate the music from that source. Now, tell me, as a linkage between
the amplifier and speakers, or linkage between your preamp and amplifier,
or linkage between your source to your preamp. Should we pay more
attention to that? Or just stuff them with some cheap copper wire? The
choice is yours.


Transparency in a cable is extremely easy to accomplish. You can verify
this by making measurements, or by doing blind listening tests. You can
buy cheap copper wires, or you can buy the same wires with designer
labels and pay. The choice is yours.


Typically I think 5% of my budget on cable is an absoulte minimum, but I
would not go more than 15% of my entire budget.


Why would there need to be a lower limit on cables? Why would a more
expensive system require more expensive cables?

But I have to admit that,
the marketing stategy play a very important role, sometime I just can't
resist myself to buy a very good package and nice cable outfit cable, and
came up it didn't sound even close to my expectation. But that would not
draw me to a conclusion that "wire is wire", because they are not!

Difference wire material has its own characteristic, I will choose the
right one to fit into my other components. I even switch interconnect
when I switch listening from vocal to instrument music.

I hope I won't offense you in anyway. If I did, I didn't intense to do
that, but please still accept my apology.


What you have done is to provide amusement to some of us .


Lawrence Leung


  #47   Report Post  
chung
 
Posts: n/a
Default weakest Link in the Chain

Lawrence Leung wrote:

chung wrote in :

I have also seen plenty of independent individuals gave out objective
views on incarnation, creationism, big-foot, UFO's, etc. Some even
claim that Elvis still walks among us.


Hah! May be he does.


Hah! Like maybe there is a creditable "cable theory"?


BTW, do you think those individuals have the *same* theory on cables?
What about Stewart's theory, which is shared by a lot of people, that
there is absolutely no need to pay more than Radio Shack cables?


Stewart's so called "theory" (theory by defintion is being proven, his
hasn't) only shared by his friends. If you believe that, good, you will
save a lot of money from now on. I want to believe , but after I experience
that, I can't.


Stewart's theory agrees with EE principles and what we know about JND
(just noticeable differences) in human hearing. Your cable theory, based
on what you have posted in this forum, is based on myths.


Millions? Minus you, we have millions.


Still waiting to hear from you how you arrived at "millions". I guess
we won't hold our collective breath...


Millions? I don't know, educated guess? Might be billions! Its like how
many "audiophile" here in the world?


Now I see how you come up with those estimates. Just throw out some
numbers. What makes you guess qualify as "educated"?


Lawrence Leung

  #48   Report Post  
Lawrence Leung
 
Posts: n/a
Default weakest Link in the Chain

chung wrote in news:RKFLb.8211$sv6.21706@attbi_s52:

So, some questions for you, is Mr. Harley an electrical engineer or
physicist? Does he have a cable theory, or is he just passing out his
opinions? What does he say about budget for cables?


Go read it yourself, and you will understand.

I personally don't believe in high dollar cables will automatically
give better sound.


So why not put down Home Depot or Radio Shack cables?


Listen, I said "I don't believe in high dollar cables will automatically
give better sound." That didn't meet I believe hook up my ten thousand
dollars equipments with some cheap and dirty copper wire make any sense.

The ultimate purpose of a Hi-Fi system is one word:
"transparent", like the singer is singing right in front of you in
your listening room, like the whole orchestra came to your listening
room to perform in front of you.


Transparency in a cable is extremely easy to accomplish.


No, it is not, unless you cannot or refuse to distinguish the differences

Cables cannot make any source sound better, the best it can do is to
100% translate the music from that source. Now, tell me, as a linkage
between the amplifier and speakers, or linkage between your preamp
and amplifier, or linkage between your source to your preamp. Should
we pay more attention to that? Or just stuff them with some cheap
copper wire? The choice is yours.


Transparency in a cable is extremely easy to accomplish. You can
verify this by making measurements, or by doing blind listening tests.
You can buy cheap copper wires, or you can buy the same wires with
designer labels and pay. The choice is yours.


There is a problem here. By doing measurements or doing blind tests, you
can tell the difference but that would not give you audio transparency.
You cannot find the same cheap copper wires with designer labels, if you
can, prove it. That is a very irresponsible accuse.

Typically I think 5% of my budget on cable is an absoulte minimum,
but I would not go more than 15% of my entire budget.


Why would there need to be a lower limit on cables? Why would a more
expensive system require more expensive cables?


A more expensive system suppose to have a higher definition, higher
ability to reproduce the original source, hence need better material to
transfer the sound to the speakers.

What you have done is to provide amusement to some of us .


That is a little rude, I tried to be polite and objective... But, hey, if
I can provide amusement to some of you, that's good. Because some of us
here already laugh enough for other opinions.

Lawrence Leung

  #49   Report Post  
chung
 
Posts: n/a
Default weakest Link in the Chain

Lawrence Leung wrote:
chung wrote in news:RKFLb.8211$sv6.21706@attbi_s52:

So, some questions for you, is Mr. Harley an electrical engineer or
physicist? Does he have a cable theory, or is he just passing out his
opinions? What does he say about budget for cables?


Go read it yourself, and you will understand.


I read his section on cables. I see nothing there remotely approaching a
cable theory. All he had was some advice for how much to spend. Is this
the best you can come up with as an example of "cable theory"?

I personally don't believe in high dollar cables will automatically
give better sound.


So why not put down Home Depot or Radio Shack cables?


Listen, I said "I don't believe in high dollar cables will automatically
give better sound." That didn't meet I believe hook up my ten thousand
dollars equipments with some cheap and dirty copper wire make any sense.


Why not give it a try first, and see if you can tell the cables apart
from you expensive ones? Blind, of course.


The ultimate purpose of a Hi-Fi system is one word:
"transparent", like the singer is singing right in front of you in
your listening room, like the whole orchestra came to your listening
room to perform in front of you.


Transparency in a cable is extremely easy to accomplish.


No, it is not, unless you cannot or refuse to distinguish the differences


You mean I fail to *believe* in your claim?


Cables cannot make any source sound better, the best it can do is to
100% translate the music from that source. Now, tell me, as a linkage
between the amplifier and speakers, or linkage between your preamp
and amplifier, or linkage between your source to your preamp. Should
we pay more attention to that? Or just stuff them with some cheap
copper wire? The choice is yours.


Transparency in a cable is extremely easy to accomplish. You can
verify this by making measurements, or by doing blind listening tests.
You can buy cheap copper wires, or you can buy the same wires with
designer labels and pay. The choice is yours.


There is a problem here. By doing measurements or doing blind tests, you
can tell the difference but that would not give you audio transparency.


Actually, I would venture that when you do the blind test on cables, you
will not tell the difference.

It is trivially easy to transmit an audio signal a few feet using wires.
Why make it sound so hard?

You cannot find the same cheap copper wires with designer labels, if you
can, prove it. That is a very irresponsible accuse.

Typically I think 5% of my budget on cable is an absoulte minimum,
but I would not go more than 15% of my entire budget.


Why would there need to be a lower limit on cables? Why would a more
expensive system require more expensive cables?


A more expensive system suppose to have a higher definition, higher
ability to reproduce the original source, hence need better material to
transfer the sound to the speakers.


So you think the more you pay for a cable, the more "transparent" a
cable is? I hope you realize that it is the extraordinary individual who
can tell normally competent cables apart. The ones that are not designed
to be tone controls. We are still looking for that person. There is at
least $4K waiting for you, if you think you could do it.


What you have done is to provide amusement to some of us .


That is a little rude, I tried to be polite and objective...


Sorry, it is just so funny when someone say that there is a cable theory
accepted by millions of audiophiles...

Here's some common-sense advice from someone who was associated with
McIntosh for a long long time:

http://home.earthlink.net/~rogerr7/wire.htm

Here's from an "Sound and Vision" audio reviewer:
***
Q. Would it be okay for me to use single conductor wire as speaker
cables running through the attic or under the house? Does stranded wire
provide some sonic benefit? It would be far cheaper and easier for me to
run 12-gauge wire to a plate with banana receptacles and then use
specialty cable at each end to patch to the amplifier and speakers. Jon
Schwendig, Santa Clara, CA

A. There are a lot of myths about speaker wires, but in the end it's
thickness that counts, and 12 gauge should be heavy enough for any
reasonable domestic application. I've taken several comparative
listening sessions over the years, and the sort of wire you want to use
involves no sonic degradation that I (or anybody else in the tests)
could hear. You could even wire the whole distance from amp to speakers
using 12-gauge, but it would probably be more convenient to use
something more flexible for the actual connection to components.
Specialty audiophile cables would serve that purpose nicely, although
more modest cables would work just as well."
***

You are much better off following this type of practical advice!



But, hey, if
I can provide amusement to some of you, that's good. Because some of us
here already laugh enough for other opinions.

Lawrence Leung

  #50   Report Post  
Rusty Boudreaux
 
Posts: n/a
Default weakest Link in the Chain

"Jón Fairbairn" wrote in message
news:iJDLb.7654$sv6.21172@attbi_s52...
Like a varistor or for that matter a light bulb. If you put
10A through a piece of really thin wire it will warm up, so
its resistance will increase -- so one could argue that such
wire might not sound the same as a pure series resistor.


If you use hair thin wire you may see some power
compression...similar to voice coil heating.

However, with reasonable gauge speaker wire the temperature
change due to power dissipation is much, much less than changes
in ambient room temperature.

but capacitance has no effect in a speaker cable,


.. at the sort of levels you might expect in wires?


Correct.

and inductance simply rolls off the highs, although I've
not actually heard any difference even with a 3dB droop at
20kHz, which is a *very* extreme situation.


That is interesting. I /would/ have expected that to be
detectable (although not by anyone my age, alas).


Even pristine human hearing is not very discriminating at the
ends of the audible range.



  #51   Report Post  
Stewart Pinkerton
 
Posts: n/a
Default weakest Link in the Chain

On 9 Jan 2004 17:54:00 GMT, Lawrence Leung
wrote:

(Stewart Pinkerton) wrote in
:

I have no idea what you mean by 'current-dependent resistance', but
capacitance has no effect in a speaker cable, and inductance simply
rolls off the highs, although I've not actually heard any difference
even with a 3dB droop at 20kHz, which is a *very* extreme situation.


Capacitance has some effect in a speaker cable, especially if the speaker
cable has high capacitance.

1. It may cause the amplifier connected to start oscillated, if the
amplifier is some old model that cannot handle that kind oscillation, the
amplifier will shut down itself. I experienced it before.


Well yes, but this doesn't affect the signal itself, it's just an
indication that you have an incompetent amplifier.

2. If the speaker is a electrostatic speaker, the effect will be even
worst.


And will still have nothing whatever to do with the signal delivered
to the speaker terminals.

But, Mr. Pinkerton, that doesn't even concern you because all you are using
is the Home Depot 12 AWG zip-cord cable, they are just plain nothing.


Indeed so, they are nothing, because like all other cables, they don't
have any sound of their own.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering
  #52   Report Post  
Stewart Pinkerton
 
Posts: n/a
Default weakest Link in the Chain

On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 19:58:06 GMT, "=?iso-8859-1?q?J=F3n?= Fairbairn"
wrote:

(Stewart Pinkerton) writes:

On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 18:19:25 GMT,
wrote:

Your first
paragraph implies that bell wire can be heard, which goes
some short way towards answering my question, but where is
the limit of detectability for that sort of sillyiness? How
little resistance -- in particular current dependent
resistance -- can be detected? How much
inductance/capacitance?


It does depend on the listener, but experience suggests
that level differences around 0.5-1 dB can be heard by
most listeners.


Thanks. I suppose it depends a fair bit on the amplifier and
speaker as to what effect a series resistance has on the
shape ultimate output.

I have no idea what you mean by 'current-dependent
resistance',


Like a varistor or for that matter a light bulb.


Ah, OK, you actually did mean what you said! :-)

If you put
10A through a piece of really thin wire it will warm up, so
its resistance will increase -- so one could argue that such
wire might not sound the same as a pure series resistor.


That's true, and indeed 'power compression' is a well-known effect due
to the heating of the loudspeaker voice coil at high SPLs.

but capacitance has no effect in a speaker cable,


.. at the sort of levels you might expect in wires? I think
if I put a 100µF capacitor in parallel with the speaker
terminals something might be noticed :-)


No, if the amplifier is capable of dumping enough current, there will
be no audible effect whatever. As it happens, I *have* tried this with
40uF capacitors.

and inductance simply rolls off the highs, although I've
not actually heard any difference even with a 3dB droop at
20kHz, which is a *very* extreme situation.


That is interesting. I /would/ have expected that to be
detectable (although not by anyone my age, alas).


It's quite surprising how much treble has to drop off before it's
noticeable, and I do use young listeners when I'm messing about with
that kind of effect, as I tail off around 17-18kHz these days. :-(
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering
  #53   Report Post  
Stewart Pinkerton
 
Posts: n/a
Default weakest Link in the Chain

On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 00:05:52 GMT, Lawrence Leung
wrote:

chung wrote in news:RKFLb.8211$sv6.21706@attbi_s52:


Transparency in a cable is extremely easy to accomplish.


No, it is not, unless you cannot or refuse to distinguish the differences


Yes, it is, and not one single person has *ever* shown an ability to
tell the difference under blind conditions.

Transparency in a cable is extremely easy to accomplish. You can
verify this by making measurements, or by doing blind listening tests.
You can buy cheap copper wires, or you can buy the same wires with
designer labels and pay. The choice is yours.


There is a problem here. By doing measurements or doing blind tests, you
can tell the difference but that would not give you audio transparency.


Yes, it does, and you can *not* tell the difference.

You cannot find the same cheap copper wires with designer labels, if you
can, prove it. That is a very irresponsible accuse.


It's not irresponsible at all, as no 'audiophile' maker actually draws
their own wire. 99% of it comes from mass-market suppliers such as
Belden, it's simply packaged in fancy insulation.

Typically I think 5% of my budget on cable is an absoulte minimum,
but I would not go more than 15% of my entire budget.


Why would there need to be a lower limit on cables? Why would a more
expensive system require more expensive cables?


A more expensive system suppose to have a higher definition, higher
ability to reproduce the original source, hence need better material to
transfer the sound to the speakers.


However, any old cable will do the job perfectly well.

What you have done is to provide amusement to some of us .


That is a little rude,


But accurate.................

I tried to be polite and objective...


Well, you failed, since your comments are completely subjective and
have no basis in electrical theory.

But, hey, if
I can provide amusement to some of you, that's good. Because some of us
here already laugh enough for other opinions.


Quite so...........
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering
  #54   Report Post  
Harry Lavo
 
Posts: n/a
Default weakest Link in the Chain

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On 9 Jan 2004 01:28:19 GMT, "Harry Lavo" wrote:

Stewart wrote:

What the heck has any of this to do with 'high-rez'?

The fact that you don't yet have such a machine to gain much experience,
thereby undercutting badly your attempts to diss the formats here on

RAHE.

Not at all, since I have listened to several players and several
formats, and I'm very familiar with the technology behind the various
formats. OTOH, I am very much behind DVD-A simply because of its
multi-channel capability.


Listening and regourously testing are two different things...and you haven't
done the latter. If you support DVD-A for its multichannel then you also
should be supporting SACD for its multichannel. At this point you have no
"hearing" basis for choosing one over the other...only a technical
preconception.

Until then, it is indeed difficult to take some of your
protestations seriously.

What you *really* mean is that you're desperately reaching, because
you have no rational rebuttal to my 'high-rez' arguments.............


No, Stewart, I'm a marketing man.


Aaaaaah, all is explained!


Only in your somewhat warped view of the world. I happen to know lots of
marketing people who are scrupulously honest. As am I.

I'm just trying to add to your creditability! ;-)


Credibility enhanced by association with a marketing man - fascinating
concept...........................


No, creditability enhanced by getting rid of the inconsistencies in your
professed beliefs and the reality of what you show the world.

I'm afreaid your subjective biases are showing once again.

  #55   Report Post  
Steven Sullivan
 
Posts: n/a
Default weakest Link in the Chain

Lawrence Leung wrote:
chung wrote in news:RKFLb.8211$sv6.21706@attbi_s52:


So, some questions for you, is Mr. Harley an electrical engineer or
physicist? Does he have a cable theory, or is he just passing out his
opinions? What does he say about budget for cables?


Go read it yourself, and you will understand.


I have it open in front of me...his chapter on cables, like the
rest of the book, is a mix of solid fact, good advice, and
ridiculous assertion, assumption, and speculation.
E.g. from p. 322: "Note that copper isn;t isotropic; it looks decidedly
different in one direction than the other. Al copper made into thin
wires exhibits a chevron structure. THis chevron structure may
explain why some cables sound different when reversed."

That isn't *theory*..that's *putting the cart before the horse*.

and p 312 " Not only is the sound of a cable partially system-dependent,
but the sonic characteristics of a specific cable will work better musically
in some systems than others.....Fortunately, evluation cables and interconnects
is relatively simple; the levels are automatically matched between cables,
and you don't have to be concerned about absolute-polarity reversal. One pitfall,
however, is that cables and interconnects need to to break in before they sound their
best."

There is no, zero, scientific evidence presented for this astonishing
claim. With good reason: there isn't any to present.


Transparency in a cable is extremely easy to accomplish.


No, it is not, unless you cannot or refuse to distinguish the differences


Where's the scientific or engineering evidence for this claim?

Transparency in a cable is extremely easy to accomplish. You can
verify this by making measurements, or by doing blind listening tests.
You can buy cheap copper wires, or you can buy the same wires with
designer labels and pay. The choice is yours.


There is a problem here. By doing measurements or doing blind tests, you
can tell the difference but that would not give you audio transparency.


How do *you* determine audio transparency without them?

You cannot find the same cheap copper wires with designer labels, if you
can, prove it. That is a very irresponsible accuse.

Typically I think 5% of my budget on cable is an absoulte minimum,
but I would not go more than 15% of my entire budget.


Why would there need to be a lower limit on cables? Why would a more
expensive system require more expensive cables?


A more expensive system suppose to have a higher definition, higher
ability to reproduce the original source, hence need better material to
transfer the sound to the speakers.


Even Harley says that there's little correlation betweem price and
performance, as regards cables. That's one of his bits of *good*
advice.

--

-S.

"They've got God on their side. All we've got is science and reason."
-- Dawn Hulsey, Talent Director



  #57   Report Post  
Espen Braathen
 
Posts: n/a
Default weakest Link in the Chain

"chung" wrote in message
news:RKFLb.8211$sv6.21706@attbi_s52...
Lawrence Leung wrote:

Hi, Chung,

A good way to start reading will be "The complete guide to High-End

Audio
(second edition)" by Robert Harley, editor-in-chief of The Absolute

Sound
and The Perfect Vision Magazines.


Former Stereophile etc.

It is a very objective book. In regarding to cables, he has some
interesting comments.


It's a book which is completely devoted to the subjective feel-good
approach.

So, some questions for you, is Mr. Harley an electrical engineer or
physicist? Does he have a cable theory, or is he just passing out his
opinions? What does he say about budget for cables?


To quote: "spend 5 to 15 % of the budget on cables".

Actually 5 % is listed as a minimum figure. So what he actually preaches is
the 10 % figure commonly listed the audiophile rags the last decades.

Some of his statements about cables:

"a poor cable will quickly cause listening fatigue"

"some cables sound smooth, but obscure the music's fine details"

"a poor quality cable makes the bass slow, mushy..."

"many cables overlay the treble with a coarse texture"

etc

Esp1

  #58   Report Post  
chung
 
Posts: n/a
Default weakest Link in the Chain

Steven Sullivan wrote:
Lawrence Leung wrote:
chung wrote in news:RKFLb.8211$sv6.21706@attbi_s52:


So, some questions for you, is Mr. Harley an electrical engineer or
physicist? Does he have a cable theory, or is he just passing out his
opinions? What does he say about budget for cables?


Go read it yourself, and you will understand.


I have it open in front of me...his chapter on cables, like the
rest of the book, is a mix of solid fact, good advice, and
ridiculous assertion, assumption, and speculation.
E.g. from p. 322: "Note that copper isn;t isotropic; it looks decidedly
different in one direction than the other. Al copper made into thin
wires exhibits a chevron structure. THis chevron structure may
explain why some cables sound different when reversed."

That isn't *theory*..that's *putting the cart before the horse*.


Not to mention the fact that he did not understand that the current
flowing through the cable is AC: it flows in both directions. There
would be measureable distortion if resistance is different depending on
direction. There is a Noble prize waiting here for someone to establish
that...


and p 312 " Not only is the sound of a cable partially system-dependent,
but the sonic characteristics of a specific cable will work better musically
in some systems than others.....Fortunately, evluation cables and interconnects
is relatively simple; the levels are automatically matched between cables,
and you don't have to be concerned about absolute-polarity reversal. One pitfall,
however, is that cables and interconnects need to to break in before they sound their
best."

There is no, zero, scientific evidence presented for this astonishing
claim. With good reason: there isn't any to present.


Mr. Harley has totally destroyed any shred of credibility he might have
as an objective reviewer, with statements like that.
  #59   Report Post  
Lawrence Leung
 
Posts: n/a
Default weakest Link in the Chain

Ok! So only you guys know, only you guys right!

The what so ever EE principal, physics theory never draw into a conclusion
like: "So, it concluded that wire is wire, cable does not matter", that is
your conclusion, so do not try to add that to the scientists.

Fine, if you insist on living in that little hole, that's your life, your
opinion.

BTW, how come nobody can answer my question: "If you can distinguish two
cables the first time, why bother to do another 19 times? If you can't
distinguish them, why bother to give yourself a second chance?"

When I was in college, everytime I proved a theory, I only need to prove it
once, never heard of I have to continusly prove to it 16 out of 20 times to
pass the proof.

You can happily enjoy your what so ever principal, while the others (I
tempted to use millions again) are still enjoying the open air of cable
world.

Good luck!

Lawrence Leung

  #60   Report Post  
Jón Fairbairn
 
Posts: n/a
Default weakest Link in the Chain

(Stewart Pinkerton) writes:

On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 19:58:06 GMT, "=?iso-8859-1?q?J=F3n?= Fairbairn"
wrote:

(Stewart Pinkerton) writes:
but capacitance has no effect in a speaker cable,


.. at the sort of levels you might expect in wires? I think
if I put a 100uF capacitor in parallel with the speaker
terminals something might be noticed :-)


No, if the amplifier is capable of dumping enough current, there will
be no audible effect whatever. As it happens, I *have* tried this with
40uF capacitors.


Gosh. I stand corrected. I was expecting that something
would give way. In a cable I suppose you would get filtering
from the combined effect of RL and C because they are spread
along the length. I wouldn't expect anything exciting at
audio frequencies, though.

and inductance simply rolls off the highs, although I've
not actually heard any difference even with a 3dB droop at
20kHz, which is a *very* extreme situation.


That is interesting. I /would/ have expected that to be
detectable (although not by anyone my age, alas).


It's quite surprising how much treble has to drop off
before it's noticeable,


I'm beginning to wonder just what it is that /is/ noticable.
When measured at the listening position my ESL 63s have
distinct top end roll-off (I can't remember the figures). I
don't know if I imagine it, but speakers that don't roll off
like this sound "aggressive" -- but I'm willing to accept
that something more complicated than the top end response is
needed to explain that.

and I do use young listeners when
I'm messing about with that kind of effect,


Where do you find young listeners whose ears haven't been
damaged by excessive SPLs these days? My young neighbour
seems to listen at levels that make the airbrick in his wall
sound like the port in a speaker!

as I tail off around 17-18kHz these days. :-(


I suspect I do to. I can still hear 15.625kHz OK (:-), but
apart from that I haven't checked.

--
Jón Fairbairn



  #62   Report Post  
chung
 
Posts: n/a
Default weakest Link in the Chain

Lawrence Leung wrote:
Ok! So only you guys know, only you guys right!

The what so ever EE principal, physics theory never draw into a conclusion
like: "So, it concluded that wire is wire, cable does not matter", that is
your conclusion, so do not try to add that to the scientists.


I don't think you understand what some of us are saying, which is that
competently designed cables all sound the same. And that it is trivially
easy to design competent cables that are audibly transparent. And that
the cost of a cable has a small effect on the performance of the cable.
You don't need to spend 15%, or 5%, of your system cost on cables.
Spending more on a cable does not lead to a better sounding cable.

Of course you can come up with cables that sound different. Some
companies actually intentionally do that.


Fine, if you insist on living in that little hole, that's your life, your
opinion.


And if you believe that you have to spend at least 5% of your system
cost on cables, well, that's your life, too .

BTW, how come nobody can answer my question: "If you can distinguish two
cables the first time, why bother to do another 19 times? If you can't
distinguish them, why bother to give yourself a second chance?"


You have to understand that anyone can randomly guess right. Just like
if you were to guess the outcome of a coin toss, there is a 50% chance
of guessing right. If you can guess the outcome of a coin toss 19 out of
20 times, you're onto something.


When I was in college, everytime I proved a theory, I only need to prove it
once, never heard of I have to continusly prove to it 16 out of 20 times to
pass the proof.


Just out of curiosity, what theory did you prove in college?


You can happily enjoy your what so ever principal, while the others (I
tempted to use millions again) are still enjoying the open air of cable
world.

Good luck!


Happy cable hunting!

Lawrence Leung


  #63   Report Post  
Norman Schwartz
 
Posts: n/a
Default weakest Link in the Chain

"Jón Fairbairn" wrote in message
...

I suspect I do to. I can still hear 15.625kHz OK (:-), but
apart from that I haven't checked.


It is said that Beethoven enjoyed listening to the very little that he was
able to. Could it be that musical creativity and amount of pleasure in its
hearing is inversely related to one's hearing acuity?

  #64   Report Post  
Lawrence Leung
 
Posts: n/a
Default weakest Link in the Chain

chung wrote in
news:qy1Mb.19937$xy6.55222@attbi_s02:

I don't think you understand what some of us are saying, which is that
competently designed cables all sound the same. And that it is
trivially easy to design competent cables that are audibly
transparent. And that the cost of a cable has a small effect on the
performance of the cable. You don't need to spend 15%, or 5%, of your
system cost on cables. Spending more on a cable does not lead to a
better sounding cable.

Of course you can come up with cables that sound different. Some
companies actually intentionally do that.


I agree! Spending more on a cable does not lead to a better sounding
cable. That's why we have to choose! But according to someone here, we
can simply just omit that process. Any dirty copper wire is going to
sound exactly like a 6N copper wire, which I cannot agree on. And
"transparent" is the ultimate goal, I don't think anyone can meet that
goal yet!

BTW, how come nobody can answer my question: "If you can distinguish
two cables the first time, why bother to do another 19 times? If you
can't distinguish them, why bother to give yourself a second chance?"


You have to understand that anyone can randomly guess right. Just like
if you were to guess the outcome of a coin toss, there is a 50% chance
of guessing right. If you can guess the outcome of a coin toss 19 out
of 20 times, you're onto something.


It is not a guessing Chung, you either hear the difference or not, as
simple as this. But when you keep on doing the process over and over
again, how long it is going to take to do 20 blind test, or at least 16
blind test? By the time you almost done, you will be sick of that same
music and all sound the same, I believe by then, even if you change your
preamp, amp, source, they all sound the same, anyone ever tried that?

When I was in college, everytime I proved a theory, I only need to
prove it once, never heard of I have to continusly prove to it 16 out
of 20 times to pass the proof.


Just out of curiosity, what theory did you prove in college?


Any theory! Where in the world you need to prove the same theory twice
(or more) before you score a 100% on that question?

Happy cable hunting!


I have to admit that, the "cable hunting" process is kind of fun,
especially you can find a good cable with reasonable money.

Lawrence Leung

  #65   Report Post  
Joseph Oberlander
 
Posts: n/a
Default weakest Link in the Chain

Lawrence Leung wrote:

Ok! So only you guys know, only you guys right!

The what so ever EE principal, physics theory never draw into a conclusion
like: "So, it concluded that wire is wire, cable does not matter", that is
your conclusion, so do not try to add that to the scientists.

Fine, if you insist on living in that little hole, that's your life, your
opinion.

BTW, how come nobody can answer my question: "If you can distinguish two
cables the first time, why bother to do another 19 times? If you can't
distinguish them, why bother to give yourself a second chance?"

When I was in college, everytime I proved a theory, I only need to prove it
once, never heard of I have to continusly prove to it 16 out of 20 times to
pass the proof.


If it was a theory that went against or was trying to disprove established
theories, then twice to rule out a fluke.

20 times is plainly trying to make the data fit the hypothesis.


  #66   Report Post  
chung
 
Posts: n/a
Default weakest Link in the Chain

Lawrence Leung wrote:
chung wrote in
news:qy1Mb.19937$xy6.55222@attbi_s02:

I don't think you understand what some of us are saying, which is that
competently designed cables all sound the same. And that it is
trivially easy to design competent cables that are audibly
transparent. And that the cost of a cable has a small effect on the
performance of the cable. You don't need to spend 15%, or 5%, of your
system cost on cables. Spending more on a cable does not lead to a
better sounding cable.

Of course you can come up with cables that sound different. Some
companies actually intentionally do that.


I agree! Spending more on a cable does not lead to a better sounding
cable.


Great. Now please explain why if your system is expensive, you have to
spend a proportionately higher amount on cables. Shouldn't the cost of
cables be a fixed cost instead of being a percentage of the total cost,
since the performance of a cable does not necessarily depend on its cost?

That's why we have to choose! But according to someone here, we
can simply just omit that process. Any dirty copper wire is going to
sound exactly like a 6N copper wire, which I cannot agree on. And
"transparent" is the ultimate goal, I don't think anyone can meet that
goal yet!


How do you define "dirty" copper wire? What is 6N copper wire?

Why can't cables and interconnects be transparent? You need to
understand the concept of JND (just noticeable differences). For
example, if one cable causes a 0.01 dB droop at 20 KHz, and another 0.02
dB droop at the same frequency, you can't tell those cables apart.


BTW, how come nobody can answer my question: "If you can distinguish
two cables the first time, why bother to do another 19 times? If you
can't distinguish them, why bother to give yourself a second chance?"


You have to understand that anyone can randomly guess right. Just like
if you were to guess the outcome of a coin toss, there is a 50% chance
of guessing right. If you can guess the outcome of a coin toss 19 out
of 20 times, you're onto something.


It is not a guessing Chung, you either hear the difference or not, as
simple as this.


Exactly. If it's not a random guess, you should get the right answer a
large percentage of the time. If it's just a random guess, half the
testees will get the right answer the first time.

But when you keep on doing the process over and over
again, how long it is going to take to do 20 blind test, or at least 16
blind test? By the time you almost done, you will be sick of that same
music and all sound the same, I believe by then, even if you change your
preamp, amp, source, they all sound the same, anyone ever tried that?


There has been no report of people getting the right answer the first
few trials, and then failing subsequently. If the difference is so great
that even your 6 year old in another room can immediately tell, what's
the problem here?


When I was in college, everytime I proved a theory, I only need to
prove it once, never heard of I have to continusly prove to it 16 out
of 20 times to pass the proof.


Just out of curiosity, what theory did you prove in college?


Any theory!


Please give one example. Are you confusing "theorem" with theory?

Where in the world you need to prove the same theory twice
(or more) before you score a 100% on that question?


When you prove a theory, you should put in all the steps in the proof
process so that others can repeat it. It has to be verifiable. If your
theory is that cables sound different, how come no one has been able to
verify it?


Happy cable hunting!


I have to admit that, the "cable hunting" process is kind of fun,
especially you can find a good cable with reasonable money.


Fun for you obviously. Extremely boring for a lot of us.


Lawrence Leung

  #67   Report Post  
Stewart Pinkerton
 
Posts: n/a
Default weakest Link in the Chain

On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 04:40:17 GMT, Lawrence Leung
wrote:

chung wrote in
news:qy1Mb.19937$xy6.55222@attbi_s02:

I don't think you understand what some of us are saying, which is that
competently designed cables all sound the same. And that it is
trivially easy to design competent cables that are audibly
transparent. And that the cost of a cable has a small effect on the
performance of the cable. You don't need to spend 15%, or 5%, of your
system cost on cables. Spending more on a cable does not lead to a
better sounding cable.

Of course you can come up with cables that sound different. Some
companies actually intentionally do that.


I agree! Spending more on a cable does not lead to a better sounding
cable. That's why we have to choose! But according to someone here, we
can simply just omit that process. Any dirty copper wire is going to
sound exactly like a 6N copper wire, which I cannot agree on.


So show us some *evidence* that this is so, not just your unsupported
opinion.

And
"transparent" is the ultimate goal, I don't think anyone can meet that
goal yet!


I do, theory suggests that I am right, and I can prove it by simple
experimentation. Where is your *evidence* that this is not the case?

BTW, how come nobody can answer my question: "If you can distinguish
two cables the first time, why bother to do another 19 times? If you
can't distinguish them, why bother to give yourself a second chance?"


You have to understand that anyone can randomly guess right. Just like
if you were to guess the outcome of a coin toss, there is a 50% chance
of guessing right. If you can guess the outcome of a coin toss 19 out
of 20 times, you're onto something.


It is not a guessing Chung, you either hear the difference or not, as
simple as this. But when you keep on doing the process over and over
again, how long it is going to take to do 20 blind test, or at least 16
blind test?


As long as you like.

By the time you almost done, you will be sick of that same
music and all sound the same, I believe by then,


You don't have to listen to the same music.

even if you change your
preamp, amp, source, they all sound the same, anyone ever tried that?


Yes, all good amps sound the same. I am less certain about CD players,
but the differences are certainly very small.

When I was in college, everytime I proved a theory, I only need to
prove it once, never heard of I have to continusly prove to it 16 out
of 20 times to pass the proof.


Unfortunately, *claiming* that you can hear a difference does not
constitute proof.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering
  #68   Report Post  
Stewart Pinkerton
 
Posts: n/a
Default weakest Link in the Chain

On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 21:13:33 GMT, Lawrence Leung
wrote:

Ok! So only you guys know, only you guys right!


No, the entire world body of physicists and electrical engineers is
right, and 'audiophiles' tend not to be technically sophisticated -
and also tend to be paranoid about 'tweaks'.

The what so ever EE principal, physics theory never draw into a conclusion
like: "So, it concluded that wire is wire, cable does not matter", that is
your conclusion, so do not try to add that to the scientists.


Actually, electrical and neurophysiological theory and experimental
evidence *does* tell us that differences among cables are at a level
which is *far* below audibility.

Fine, if you insist on living in that little hole, that's your life, your
opinion.


No, it's a plain fact, and neither you nor anyone else has *ever* been
able to show evidence that this is not the case.

BTW, how come nobody can answer my question: "If you can distinguish two
cables the first time, why bother to do another 19 times? If you can't
distinguish them, why bother to give yourself a second chance?"


Simple - you might simply have made a lucky guess the first time.
Getting 16 correct out of 20 gives you 95% probability that you are
not guessing. BTW, note that if you use a large number of listeners,
this probability level means that 1 in 20 of them *will* achieve 16
out of 20 just by random chance!

When I was in college, everytime I proved a theory, I only need to prove it
once, never heard of I have to continusly prove to it 16 out of 20 times to
pass the proof.


You seem to be missing the point that these are *observations*, not
theories. Also, theory suggests that all cables *do* sound the same,
so you need to come up with solid *evidence* in rebuttal.

You can happily enjoy your what so ever principal, while the others (I
tempted to use millions again) are still enjoying the open air of cable
world.


And you can happily enjoy your *illusion* that cables sound different.
The *facts* however, will remain the same. Wire is wire.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering
  #69   Report Post  
Stewart Pinkerton
 
Posts: n/a
Default weakest Link in the Chain

On 10 Jan 2004 22:51:45 GMT, "=?iso-8859-1?q?J=F3n?= Fairbairn"
wrote:

(Stewart Pinkerton) writes:

On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 19:58:06 GMT, "=?iso-8859-1?q?J=F3n?= Fairbairn"
wrote:

(Stewart Pinkerton) writes:
but capacitance has no effect in a speaker cable,

.. at the sort of levels you might expect in wires? I think
if I put a 100uF capacitor in parallel with the speaker
terminals something might be noticed :-)


No, if the amplifier is capable of dumping enough current, there will
be no audible effect whatever. As it happens, I *have* tried this with
40uF capacitors.


Gosh. I stand corrected. I was expecting that something
would give way. In a cable I suppose you would get filtering
from the combined effect of RL and C because they are spread
along the length. I wouldn't expect anything exciting at
audio frequencies, though.


To be fair, you can't do this with any old amplifier, it has to be
able to pump enough current to charge and discharge that capacitor!
Further, you don't get any RC filtering, you simply get RL filtering
with a high inductance cable. Since any reasonable cable will have a
capacitance of much less than a tenth of a microFarad, this isn't
generally an issue in any case.

Where do you find young listeners whose ears haven't been
damaged by excessive SPLs these days? My young neighbour
seems to listen at levels that make the airbrick in his wall
sound like the port in a speaker!


Oi lives in the country, oi does! :-)

as I tail off around 17-18kHz these days. :-(


I suspect I do to. I can still hear 15.625kHz OK (:-), but
apart from that I haven't checked.


Yup, another good argument in favour of 100Hz TVs!
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering
  #70   Report Post  
Stewart Pinkerton
 
Posts: n/a
Default weakest Link in the Chain

On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 19:00:34 GMT, "Harry Lavo"
wrote:

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On 9 Jan 2004 01:28:19 GMT, "Harry Lavo" wrote:

Stewart wrote:

What the heck has any of this to do with 'high-rez'?

The fact that you don't yet have such a machine to gain much experience,
thereby undercutting badly your attempts to diss the formats here on

RAHE.

Not at all, since I have listened to several players and several
formats, and I'm very familiar with the technology behind the various
formats. OTOH, I am very much behind DVD-A simply because of its
multi-channel capability.

Listening and regourously testing are two different things...and you haven't
done the latter.


I have done it as well as is reasonably feasible with what I have to
hand - certainly with as much rigour as anything you have done. Did
*you* make *blind* comparisons. If not, then you fall far behind.

If you support DVD-A for its multichannel then you also
should be supporting SACD for its multichannel.


I have already done so, several times.

At this point you have no
"hearing" basis for choosing one over the other...only a technical
preconception.


I have already stated that I and others hear no significant
differences among *well made* CD, SACD and DVD-A, so you are correct
in this statement, if not for reasons which you normally accept.

Until then, it is indeed difficult to take some of your
protestations seriously.

What you *really* mean is that you're desperately reaching, because
you have no rational rebuttal to my 'high-rez' arguments.............

No, Stewart, I'm a marketing man.


Aaaaaah, all is explained!

Only in your somewhat warped view of the world. I happen to know lots of
marketing people who are scrupulously honest. As am I.


I accept your self-description, although your observational skills and
gullibility might perhaps be called into question......... :-)

I'm just trying to add to your creditability! ;-)


Credibility enhanced by association with a marketing man - fascinating
concept...........................

No, creditability enhanced by getting rid of the inconsistencies in your
professed beliefs and the reality of what you show the world.


You have yet to show any such inconsistency, my experience just
doesn't chime with *your* belief system.

I'm afreaid your subjective biases are showing once again.


I work for a Bank, we have lots of marketing people, I have yet to
meet one single one of them that I would trust. I suspect that those
outside the well-controlled financial services industry are unlikely
to be *more* honest. No doubt you are the exception, but I do find
your debating tactics to be, shall we say, selective.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering


  #71   Report Post  
W. Oland
 
Posts: n/a
Default weakest Link in the Chain

On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 16:29:18 +0000, Joseph Oberlander wrote:

If it was a theory that went against or was trying to disprove
established theories, then twice to rule out a fluke.

20 times is plainly trying to make the data fit the hypothesis.


To quit testing a theory after two successful tries is certainly not the
scientific method I learned in college. It would be nothing more than a
nice indicator that perhaps you are on to something.

Theories get tested, retested, challanged and examined over and over,
often for years or decades. Obviously the more critical and important the
issue, the more important and extensive the testing.

I certainly wouldn't want to be the recipient of a cancer drug that
appeared to work twice before it was released to market!

It is difficult to construct truly double blind listening tests,
especially in the home environment. First, BOTH the listening subjects and
the test administrator should be "blind" as to which is which when running
the test. This actually requires a third party to choose and set up the
system - cables in this instance.

Second, it is difficult to construct a setup that is theoretically
neutral. For example, inserting an A-B switch in the cable circuit now
introduces a variable or potential influence that is not present in a
hard-wired setup. On the other hand, hard wiring results in a time lapse
between comparisons; this introduces the well proven, widely erratic
variable of human memory.

I tend to fall into the category that once certain minimum electrical
requirements have been met, the differences between cables is microscopic
at audio frequencies. I'll get more of a difference moving my speaker 1/2"
in the listening room.

The other nice thing is cables are an item that I get to put in the "not
real important in the big scheme of things" category. No one lives or
dies and the earth does not wobble off its axis if I use the "wrong"
cable. My only question is do I get derive a lot of pleasure from my
stereo when I listen to music. I happy to report that I do.
  #72   Report Post  
Stewart Pinkerton
 
Posts: n/a
Default weakest Link in the Chain

On 11 Jan 2004 16:29:18 GMT, Joseph Oberlander
wrote:

Lawrence Leung wrote:

Ok! So only you guys know, only you guys right!

The what so ever EE principal, physics theory never draw into a conclusion
like: "So, it concluded that wire is wire, cable does not matter", that is
your conclusion, so do not try to add that to the scientists.

Fine, if you insist on living in that little hole, that's your life, your
opinion.

BTW, how come nobody can answer my question: "If you can distinguish two
cables the first time, why bother to do another 19 times? If you can't
distinguish them, why bother to give yourself a second chance?"

When I was in college, everytime I proved a theory, I only need to prove it
once, never heard of I have to continusly prove to it 16 out of 20 times to
pass the proof.


If it was a theory that went against or was trying to disprove established
theories, then twice to rule out a fluke.

20 times is plainly trying to make the data fit the hypothesis.


No, it's simple probability. Once could be a fluke, twice could be a
fluke, just like in coin tossing. In order to have *reasonable*
confidence that it's not just lucky guessing, you need 16 out of 20
correct. Hey, if Lawrence feels that it's a 'night and day'
difference, then he should get it right *every* time, yes?
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering
  #73   Report Post  
Lawrence Leung
 
Posts: n/a
Default weakest Link in the Chain

(Stewart Pinkerton) wrote in
:

Yes, it is, and not one single person has *ever* shown an ability to
tell the difference under blind conditions.


No, you are wrong. You should re-phrase that to: "... under my blind
conditions." I can set up a more ridiculos test so that even I put one
million dollars in the pool, still nobody can claim, then I can say
whatever I want. There is nothing wrong with blind test, but your version
of blind test is nonsense. 95%, who said it has to be 16/20 or what so
ever, only the person (or some people) set it that way and claim it is the
fact?

It's not irresponsible at all, as no 'audiophile' maker actually draws
their own wire. 99% of it comes from mass-market suppliers such as
Belden, it's simply packaged in fancy insulation.


You are wrong, again. Where did you come with "no audiophile maker...", do
you have any evidence, or just you think? Remember you used the word "no",
means all cable companies! I know at least three make their own cables, I
even know where did they make them, and they are not using any mass-market
suppliers such as Belden.

However, any old cable will do the job perfectly well.


To your standard, yes!

I tried to be polite and objective...


Well, you failed, since your comments are completely subjective and
have no basis in electrical theory.


What kind of theories you are using? Any theory concluded: "All wires are
the same, it will not affect sound quality." If there is, show it to
everyone, who and where? It is all in your head, you jiggle all the
theories that you ever know and draw that conclusion yourself.

Lawrence Leung

  #74   Report Post  
Stewart Pinkerton
 
Posts: n/a
Default weakest Link in the Chain

On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 19:46:35 GMT, Lawrence Leung
wrote:

(Stewart Pinkerton) wrote in
:

Yes, it is, and not one single person has *ever* shown an ability to
tell the difference under blind conditions.


No, you are wrong. You should re-phrase that to: "... under my blind
conditions."


They are not 'my' blind conditions, they are a standard test for
reasonable confidence that there really is a detectable difference.

I can set up a more ridiculos test so that even I put one
million dollars in the pool, still nobody can claim, then I can say
whatever I want. There is nothing wrong with blind test, but your version
of blind test is nonsense. 95%, who said it has to be 16/20 or what so
ever, only the person (or some people) set it that way and claim it is the
fact?


See above. If you are confident that your cables *really* make a
significant difference, why wouldn't you be able to tell that
difference 100% of the time?

It's not irresponsible at all, as no 'audiophile' maker actually draws
their own wire. 99% of it comes from mass-market suppliers such as
Belden, it's simply packaged in fancy insulation.


You are wrong, again. Where did you come with "no audiophile maker...", do
you have any evidence, or just you think? Remember you used the word "no",
means all cable companies! I know at least three make their own cables, I
even know where did they make them, and they are not using any mass-market
suppliers such as Belden.


Name them.

However, any old cable will do the job perfectly well.


To your standard, yes!


To anyones standard.

I tried to be polite and objective...


Well, you failed, since your comments are completely subjective and
have no basis in electrical theory.


What kind of theories you are using? Any theory concluded: "All wires are
the same, it will not affect sound quality." If there is, show it to
everyone, who and where? It is all in your head, you jiggle all the
theories that you ever know and draw that conclusion yourself.


Clearly, you are deliberately ignoring all existing evidence which
shows that standard 'zipcord' has no nonlinearities detectable above
-140dB (or even lower, that's the limit of the equipment I've been
able to use, or have ever read about). That is more than a hundred
times below any non-linearity that has ever been shown to be
detectable by humans. You are doing a lot of arm-waving here, but you
have shown absolutely *nothing* to back up your wild claims.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering
  #75   Report Post  
Bob Marcus
 
Posts: n/a
Default weakest Link in the Chain

Lawrence Leung wrote in message
news:vKhMb.25630$5V2.38454@attbi_s53...
(Stewart Pinkerton) wrote in
:

Yes, it is, and not one single person has *ever* shown an ability to
tell the difference under blind conditions.


No, you are wrong.


No, he's right. No one's ever shown this ability, under *any* blind
conditions.

You should re-phrase that to: "... under my blind conditions." I can set up
a more ridiculos test so that even I put one million dollars in the pool,
still nobody can claim, then I can say whatever I want. There is nothing
wrong with blind test, but your version of blind test is nonsense. 95%, who
said it has to be 16/20 or what so ever, only the person (or some people)
set it that way and claim it is the fact?

With all due respect, Lawrence, you're missing the basic idea here. If I
read you correctly, you seem to believe that you can listen to one cable,
then replace it with another cable, decide whether the second sounds
different from the first, and that settles the matter. But it doesn't settle
the matter, because the heart of the matter is that some of us believe that
those who claim to hear differences under these circumstances are actually
imagining it.

Now, it's always a little hard for audiophiles to accept the idea that
something they plainly hear might be imaginary, but there is a substantial
scientific literature that says that this is a common occurrence. You'll see
it referred to here and elsewhere as Expectation Bias or the Placebo Effect.
What happens is that you see the change being made, and that influences how
you "hear." Strange, but demonstrably true.

So we need some way to determine whether the difference you think you hear
is real or imaginary. We do this by designing a test in which you do not
know what you are listening to (i.e., blind). There are a variety of ways to
do this, including the ABX test and the A-B difference test. In the former,
you must tell us what X is. In the latter, you must tell us whether B is the
same as or different than A. Either way, you've got a 50-50 chance of being
right, so if you did it just once and got the right answer, it could be just
a lucky guess. That's why we require multiple trials, and there are some
general statistical rules for how many trials and how many correct answers
you need. Stewart's 16-out-of-20 condition is perfectly reasonable.

If you want to claim that you can hear differences between cables, this is
what you have to do to prove it to us skeptics. It's not an unreasonable
standard; it's a standard based on general scientific understanding of human
hearing.

bob



  #77   Report Post  
Lawrence Leung
 
Posts: n/a
Default weakest Link in the Chain

"Bob Marcus" wrote in
:

So we need some way to determine whether the difference you think you
hear is real or imaginary. We do this by designing a test in which you
do not know what you are listening to (i.e., blind). There are a
variety of ways to do this, including the ABX test and the A-B
difference test. In the former, you must tell us what X is. In the
latter, you must tell us whether B is the same as or different than A.
Either way, you've got a 50-50 chance of being right, so if you did it
just once and got the right answer, it could be just a lucky guess.
That's why we require multiple trials, and there are some general
statistical rules for how many trials and how many correct answers you
need. Stewart's 16-out-of-20 condition is perfectly reasonable.

If you want to claim that you can hear differences between cables,
this is what you have to do to prove it to us skeptics. It's not an
unreasonable standard; it's a standard based on general scientific
understanding of human hearing.


Thank you for your reasoning.

The thing is, Stewart's "blind test" already assumed that the subject
will guess at the beginning because of the $4000 pool. I know what you
saying, sometime we will bias on certain if we see the cable first, but
you know, do it yourself at home, in regardless of that "attractive"
$4000, honestly to yourself, I bet the difference between a cheap dirty
zip-cord and a 6N copper wire is obvious; same thing as a solid copper
interconnect and a silver/copper hybrid interconnect. I can say that,
because I have done it and experiencing the difference, many times. I
don't need to do any nonsense test to prove to me that is right.

The test has a major problem because of the extend of time it consume,
and as I pointed out above, it bias that the tester will lie even if
he/she cannot tell the difference.

I say, if I can tell the difference the first time, that is! Why didn't I
want to do it 20 times in a roll, because we are human, human will adapt
to an environment quite easily, after a few time of identical testing,
especially under loud volume, everything will just sounds the same,
cables, speakers, amp, preamp, source (of course you can tell between a
CD and LP). The set up of the test is nonsense. That is why as proclaim
by Stewart why so many years, nobody even wanted to do the test, because
people have better way to spend their time.

Lawrence Leung
Reply
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Gallons of Snake Oil malcolm Audio Opinions 3 February 17th 04 09:41 AM
Some serious cable measurements with interesting results. Bruno Putzeys High End Audio 78 December 19th 03 04:27 AM
cabling explained Midlant Car Audio 8 November 14th 03 04:07 AM
Digital Audio Cable Question(s) Hugh Cowan High End Audio 11 October 8th 03 07:15 PM
science vs. pseudo-science ludovic mirabel High End Audio 91 October 3rd 03 09:56 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:22 PM.

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 AudioBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about Audio and hi-fi"