High pass filtering is endemic in audio systems. It's no secret that if the
corner frequency of a high pass filter is set high enough, it will be
audible.

A quick analysis suggests that any practical playback system can be
characterized as being at least a third-order high pass filter, while a
complete record/play system can be characterized as being at least a fifth
or sixth-order high pass filter. Typical complete record-playback systems
may be of far higher orders, with the tenth or 15th orders being quite
likely.

Typical sound reinforcement systems can be characterized as high pass
filters with corner frequencies on the order of 50-85 Hz.

Typical well-engineered analog (vinyl) high-quality home audio systems can
be characterized as high pass filters with corner frequencies of no less
than 13 Hz.

Typical digitally-based high quality home audio systems can be characterized
as high pass filters with corner frequencies on the order of 1 Hz or more.

So, how low of a frequency can a high pass filter be set to, and still be
reliably audible?

I predict that many will be surprised how low they must go to avoid audible
effects from high pass filtering.

BTW, the audible effect of high pass filtering is something like a timbre
change.

Listen for yourself and reach your own conclusions!

Web site introduction:

http://www.pcabx.com/index.htm

High pass filter listening tests:

http://www.pcabx.com/technical/high_pass/index.htm

It's all good and it's all free!

"Arny Krueger" wrote

High pass filtering is endemic in audio systems.

What??? ARC, Anthem, Ayre, Bel Canto, Gryphon, Headroom,
Klyne, Krell, Lamm, Mark Levinson, Rogue, VTL all have
pre-amps with frequency responses starting a DC or 1 Hz.


It's no secret that if the corner frequency of a high pass filter
is set high enough, it will be audible.

Define your notion of "corner frequency?"


I predict that many will be surprised how low they must go to
avoid audible effects from high pass filtering.

Quack, quack, quack...


BTW, the audible effect of high pass filtering is something like
a timbre change.

"something like"... your version of future wiggle room
factor as you begin re-trenching your thesis.


Listen for yourself and reach your own conclusions!

Web site introduction:

http://www.pcabx.com/index.htm

High pass filter listening tests:

http://www.pcabx.com/technical/high_pass/index.htm

It's all good and it's all free!

Hehehe... yea, thanks!

Powell wrote:
"Arny Krueger" wrote

High pass filtering is endemic in audio systems.

What??? ARC, Anthem, Ayre, Bel Canto, Gryphon, Headroom,
Klyne, Krell, Lamm, Mark Levinson, Rogue, VTL all have
pre-amps with frequency responses starting a DC or 1 Hz.

Please consider the whole system. You got speakers with frequency response
starting at DC or a 1 Hz?

BTW Powell, you can post the results of your lab tests of the ACTUAL
frequency response of these products at your earliest convenience. Either
that, or admit that you lack relevant empirical experience with the products
you cited. Anybody can read spec sheets and drop names.

It's no secret that if the corner frequency of a high pass filter
is set high enough, it will be audible.

Define your notion of "corner frequency?"

Read any book about electronics. If you have any questions, quote the book
definition it here.

I predict that many will be surprised how low they must go to
avoid audible effects from high pass filtering.

Quack, quack, quack...

That's what ducks do, Powell. Since you quack like a duck...

BTW, the audible effect of high pass filtering is something like
a timbre change.

"something like"... your version of future wiggle room
factor as you begin re-trenching your thesis.

And you re-write of this paragraph is???

Listen for yourself and reach your own conclusions!

Web site introduction:

http://www.pcabx.com/index.htm

High pass filter listening tests:

http://www.pcabx.com/technical/high_pass/index.htm

It's all good and it's all free!

Hehehe... yea, thanks!

Clearly, its all way over your head, Powell.

"Arny Krueger" wrote

High pass filtering is endemic in audio systems.

What??? ARC, Anthem, Ayre, Bel Canto, Gryphon, Headroom,
Klyne, Krell, Lamm, Mark Levinson, Rogue, VTL all have
pre-amps with frequency responses starting a DC or 1 Hz.

Please consider the whole system. You got speakers with
frequency response starting at DC or a 1 Hz?

I don't have speakers that reach 50,100 or 200 kHz
either, but some of the sited pre-amps can. The ideal
audio system will be transparent to the source content
(straight wire with gain).


BTW Powell, you can post the results of your lab tests
of the ACTUAL frequency response of these products
at your earliest convenience.

Gee Arny, spend $12 on a Stereophile subscription
if you need the validity of test specifications to validate
your poor hearing acuity.


Either that, or admit that you lack relevant empirical
experience with the products you cited. Anybody can
read spec sheets and drop names.

Quack, quack, quack...


It's no secret that if the corner frequency of a high
pass filter is set high enough, it will be audible.

Define your notion of "corner frequency?"

Read any book about electronics. If you have any
questions, quote the book definition it here.

It’s your thesis... stand and deliver.


Listen for yourself and reach your own conclusions!

Web site introduction:

http://www.pcabx.com/index.htm

High pass filter listening tests:

http://www.pcabx.com/technical/high_pass/index.htm

It's all good and it's all free!

Hehehe... yea, thanks!

Clearly, its all way over your head, Powell.

That’s why I ask questions... to be edified by my
superiors .

From: "Arny Krueger"
Date: 4/20/2004 8:34 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

Powell wrote:
"Arny Krueger" wrote

High pass filtering is endemic in audio systems.

What??? ARC, Anthem, Ayre, Bel Canto, Gryphon, Headroom,
Klyne, Krell, Lamm, Mark Levinson, Rogue, VTL all have
pre-amps with frequency responses starting a DC or 1 Hz.

Please consider the whole system. You got speakers with frequency response
starting at DC or a 1 Hz?

You got speakers with a frequency response starting at 1 hz?

BTW Powell, you can post the results of your lab tests of the ACTUAL
frequency response of these products at your earliest convenience.

You can do the same.

Either
that, or admit that you lack relevant empirical experience with the products
you cited. Anybody can read spec sheets and drop names.

You can do the same here as well.



It's no secret that if the corner frequency of a high pass filter
is set high enough, it will be audible.

Define your notion of "corner frequency?"

Read any book about electronics. If you have any questions, quote the book
definition it here.

Why don't you just answer the question?

On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 11:34:39 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:


BTW Powell, you can post the results of your lab tests of the ACTUAL
frequency response of these products at your earliest convenience.

BTW Arnold, you can post results of your lab tasts that show that the
removal of 6hz can be reliably be detected in musical programming. and
talking about kick drums doesn't count.

On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 11:34:39 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

Please consider the whole system. You got speakers with frequency response
starting at DC or a 1 Hz?

You got speakers with a FR that includes 6hz?

"dave weil" wrote

Please consider the whole system. You got speakers
with frequency response starting at DC or a 1 Hz?

You got speakers with a FR that includes 6hz?

It's interesting to note that some of the subwoofer
manufacture are designing down to this low level
like: Bag End 8 Hz, Definitive Tech. 11 Hz, Linn 2 Hz,
Paragon 11 Hz, Thiel 10 Hz, California Audio 9 Hz
and Audio Physic 10 Hz.

Also there are physical traducers that attach to
chairs/couches which take advantage of DVD's
synthetically produced low level sound effects
which have nothing to do with music but does/can
represent naturally occurring sounds of the
environment like earth quakes.

I'm also doubtful that only the ear can
hear/interpolate sound waves. Sight, as we
know it, can be demonstrated to occur
without the aid of the eye.

On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 12:09:36 -0400, "Powell"
wrote:


"dave weil" wrote

Please consider the whole system. You got speakers
with frequency response starting at DC or a 1 Hz?

You got speakers with a FR that includes 6hz?

It's interesting to note that some of the subwoofer
manufacture are designing down to this low level
like: Bag End 8 Hz, Definitive Tech. 11 Hz, Linn 2 Hz,
Paragon 11 Hz, Thiel 10 Hz, California Audio 9 Hz
and Audio Physic 10 Hz.

You only list one manufacturer who goes "down to this level".

dave weil wrote:

On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 11:34:39 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

Please consider the whole system. You got speakers with frequency
response starting at DC or a 1 Hz?

You got speakers with a FR that includes 6 Hz?

In the room yes, and that hardly makes me unique.

I have a friend that has a system that has somewhat rising response at 6 Hz
and within a few dB down to 3 Hz.. You can bet that speaker systems like
this aren't based on tiny stuff like 6 inch or 8 inch woofers.

I have a hard time with even conceiving of something like a 6 or 8 inch
woofer as begin a subwoofer. Do you know of anybody with a 6 or 8"
"subwoofer", Weil?

6 Hz is within a mere 2 octaves of 20 Hz.

On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 12:37:43 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

dave weil wrote:

On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 11:34:39 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

Please consider the whole system. You got speakers with frequency
response starting at DC or a 1 Hz?

You got speakers with a FR that includes 6 Hz?

In the room yes, and that hardly makes me unique.

I don't believe you.

I'd like to see a graph of the FR of said speakers.

Also, I'm still waiting for your dbt results of testing your
hypothesis that removing a 6hz component is audible in musical
content.