[Mickey]

On 2008-12-20, Laurence Payne wrote:
On 20 Dec 2008 10:16:57 -0500, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

This is true, but I don't think the American taste is really going to
change. Americans will still want big cars.

This illustrates perfectly the basic problem. Whether it's economic
meltdown or climate change, no-one wants to consider measures that
actually affect THEIR personal lifestyle. No matter if OTHER people
fall off the bottom rung, so long as resources are pumped into
propping up THEIR status quo.

And when in history has it been different?

Maybe provoking a full-scale war is the only way of forcing a decadent
system to shake down. Bush may not have been as stupid as he looked.

Prices will keep this down, eventually, given lack of easy credit.
I hope Obama and the Democratic congress surprise me by showing some
balls and slapping on a 50-cent-a-gallon federal fuel tax to start keeping
down consumption a bit prior to the next part of the cycle.

--
Mickey
I am a great believer in luck, and I find that the harder I work
the more luck I have. -- Thomas Jefferson

[Mickey]

On 2008-12-20, Richard Crowley wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote ...
Paying workers well is a good thing. The bad thing is when you're having
to compete against workers who are vastly underpaid. But in the case of
auto manufacture, the labour costs are actually a very small part of the
whole thing, and they get lower every year. You can thank the Japanese
for that.... they came up with the automated assembly systems that reduce
the number of workers needed.

They don't have "job banks" in Japan where they pay workers
to sit there doing nothing.

Actually, until the last few years you could argue that the de-facto
lifetime employment guarantees in Japan provided much the same thing.

UAW management acts like the spoiled pre-teen children of rich parents
who refuse to accept reality when daddy falls on hard times.

I agree -- they want high pay for a job that requires no investment in
training. And they want it to be secure, too. No wonder they have had to
achieve those things by intimidation.

--
Mickey
Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in
overalls and looks like work. -- Thomas Edison

[Les Cargill]

Richard Crowley wrote:
"Les Cargill" wrote ...
Probably. But "what are people *for*" - Kurt Vonnegut, "Player Piano."

To invent, build, task, and maintain the robots.



No, the other 99.998% of them....

--
Les Cargill

[Chris Hornbeck]

On Sat, 20 Dec 2008 23:11:44 -0500, Les Cargill
wrote:

Richard Crowley wrote:

Probably. But "what are people *for*" - Kurt Vonnegut, "Player Piano."

To invent, build, task, and maintain the robots.

No, the other 99.998% of them....

Ah, the Little People... Where would we be without the Worker
Classes? And, now in the Christmas season, without the Elves?

Early 20th Century dystopias seem much less Marxian (in the Karl,
rather than the Groucho, sense) than the Late 20th Century utopian
failures.

Maybe, after all current failures are forgiven, we can get back
to blaming foreigners. It's embarrassing that we were so recently
forced to the bottom-barrel of blaming our own liberal freethinkers
and homosexuals and unwed mothers for our errors.

Especially with all of those foreigners still to be blamed. And, of
course, the ****ing Elves.


Much thanks, as always,
Chris Hornbeck

[hank alrich]

Mike Rivers wrote:

The kitchen is somewhat hazardous.

Check out worker's comp rates for commercial kitchens. It's a dangerous
arena.

--
ha
shut up and play your guitar

[hank alrich]

Eeyore wrote:

George's Pro Sound Company wrote:

and I buy, with my own money everything from aa battries to trucks to 64
channel digital desks
been doing so for over 20 years, I do have a bit of a clue when it comes to
product design, and one does not have to know the picofarrads of the
components to reconize decent design or disposable design
I buy both

Full od CRAP as ever.

You just BUY stuff, you have NO IDEA how it works.

I think George drinks better booze than you do. Maybe not quite as much,
but better.

--
ha
shut up and play your guitar

[hank alrich]

Eeyore wrote:

hank alrich wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
George's Pro Sound Company wrote:

and remember even if production come back to the united stated it
will still be a cheap piece of crap, only it will cost more there is
nothing after the design that will improve the performance of a
unit if it is designed as a disposable product, it will be a
disposable product, regardless of where it is built or how much
labor and environment concerns inflate it's final cost

You know **** ALL about design. Shut your stupid mouth and stick to
twiddling knobs, the only thing you're good at (and I have my doubts
about even that).

Let's see here... George runs his own successful SR company...

And you?

Yes I did too using partly my own 'home built equipment' that would make
Greg Mackie look green until I decied to concentrate mainly on design

I can still ****ing outmix the average Philtho.

Graham

Ain't much in the world cheaper than talk, and disposable talk is the
cheapest of that.

--
ha
shut up and play your guitar

[George's Pro Sound Company]

"hank alrich" wrote in message
...
Eeyore wrote:

hank alrich wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
George's Pro Sound Company wrote:

and remember even if production come back to the united stated it
will still be a cheap piece of crap, only it will cost more there
is
nothing after the design that will improve the performance of a
unit if it is designed as a disposable product, it will be a
disposable product, regardless of where it is built or how much
labor and environment concerns inflate it's final cost

You know **** ALL about design. Shut your stupid mouth and stick to
twiddling knobs, the only thing you're good at (and I have my doubts
about even that).

Let's see here... George runs his own successful SR company...

And you?

Yes I did too using partly my own 'home built equipment' that would make
Greg Mackie look green until I decied to concentrate mainly on design

I can still ****ing outmix the average Philtho.

Graham

Ain't much in the world cheaper than talk, and disposable talk is the
cheapest of that.

anyonecan type anything some people even typethat they have dispached a team
of lawyers to sue me for libel
still waiting eyesore
also post some pics of the job you did while owning a sr company, btw did
that comppany have a name, or a reputation I could google?
George

[George's Pro Sound Company]

"hank alrich" wrote in message
...
Eeyore wrote:

George's Pro Sound Company wrote:

and I buy, with my own money everything from aa battries to trucks to
64
channel digital desks
been doing so for over 20 years, I do have a bit of a clue when it
comes to
product design, and one does not have to know the picofarrads of the
components to reconize decent design or disposable design
I buy both

Full od CRAP as ever.

You just BUY stuff, you have NO IDEA how it works.

I think George drinks better booze than you do. Maybe not quite as much,
but better.

drink of choice 21 yo Balvinie port wood aged scotch
but eyesore is right I just buy stuff and dont know how it works, in fact I
haven't even unboxed most of it
I just buy it because I am rich and clueless, I don't actually need any of
the stuff I buy so why should I know how to use it
all those photos are just photoshop creations that I do while waiting to buy
more stuff, thatof course I don't know how to work
I got 4 trucks full of stuff I dont know how to work right now, probably
have six by the end of next summer
:-)
george

[Sean Conolly]

"Mickey" wrote in message
...
On 2008-12-20, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Charlie Olsen wrote:

Chrysler actually went out on the limb, design wise, with their PT
Crusier,
Charger and Challenger cars.
Some people love them and others think they are ugly, but they are
different.

They ride like pigs, though. The PT Cruiser is a good example of
everything
wrong here... the handling is awful, the suspension is soft, and they
seem
to think adding big centering springs to the steering will compensate and
make people think the car is responsive.

Hear, hear. Had a rental company do a bait-and-switch and land me with
a PT cruiser for a two-week trip. The ride was great except for the
vibration,
the high seat great except for the poor visibility, the large body fine
except
for the lack of storage space. And the economy fine except for the lack of
good gas mileage.

Terrible car. But some people, including a good friend of mine, love them.


I love the styling, but it's the worst POS I've driving in a long time. My
25 year old truck is tighter on the road, even with oversized tires.

Sean

[Mike Rivers]

Charlie Olsen wrote:

Why not just have one company, with one line of dealerships and one
supply line of parts etc build all three?

If it was that way with microphones, we'd have a lot less to talk about
around here. g But then, I guess maybe we sort of do with the five
hundred or so mics coming out of the four or five factories in China.



--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[Scott Dorsey]

Charlie Olsen wrote:
On 20 Dec 2008 14:20:34 -0500, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Charlie Olsen wrote:

Chrysler actually went out on the limb, design wise, with their PT Crusier,
Charger and Challenger cars.
Some people love them and others think they are ugly, but they are
different.

They ride like pigs, though. The PT Cruiser is a good example of everything
wrong here... the handling is awful, the suspension is soft, and they seem
to think adding big centering springs to the steering will compensate and
make people think the car is responsive.

I haven't driven the PT but I have driven the Charger, full blown with the
Hemi etc and my only real complaint is that the car feels very heavy.

Great straight line and very nice inside, but it has a heavy feeling to it.

This is a less dramatic example of the kind of thing I am complaining
about. My wife and I took a rental Charger up to Lick Observatory and
it wasn't a pleasant experience at all. It felt like a bigger and
heavier car than it really was. I admit that the lousy tires provided
by the rental company didn't help, though.

The PT Cruiser is like that, but without acceleration either.

Okay, THIS is where the diversity thing comes in. The idea is that the
various product lines are supposed to make very different cars with
different customer bases, but with a lot of common parts so that there
are economies of scale in production while still providing a diverse
product line.

But they are not that different, with a few exceptions.
CTS is one because there is no Chevy equivalent.

They USED to be different. They aren't any more, because the auto
companies have forgotten the whole point of having different brands.
These days, yes, they are all pretty much the same, because all
the cars they're making are pretty much the same, and that is part of
what is killing them.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Laurence Payne[_2_]]

On 21 Dec 2008 09:24:29 -0500, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

They USED to be different. They aren't any more, because the auto
companies have forgotten the whole point of having different brands.
These days, yes, they are all pretty much the same, because all
the cars they're making are pretty much the same, and that is part of
what is killing them.

But you don't see many people who want a car but don't have one. And
they all get you there. Are we going to try to prop up
over-consumption for a few more years or accept that the days of
"create a need by marketing" are over?

[Les Cargill]

Richard Crowley wrote:
"Les Cargill" wrote ...
The dealership network is much more a drain than even labor costs. If
we built computers like we build cars, they'd be $25,000 too.

But the Detroitt3 aren't *paying* the dealers, are they?

Somebody has to pay for the cost of the dealerships.
That would be the end customer.

The dealerships are little fiefdoms. Sometimes they
get paid directly, but it's not like the car
companies just take orders from them and fill
those orders.

Don't the dealers make their money from buying cars
from Detroit and then selling them at a profit? The
dealers are in trouble because people aren't buying
cars.



Last car I bought was in '04, and the older guys were
all working used because there was no money in new even
then.

--
Les Cargill

[George's Pro Sound Company]

"Charlie Olsen" wrote in message
...
On 21 Dec 2008 09:24:29 -0500, Scott Dorsey wrote:

They USED to be different. They aren't any more, because the auto
companies have forgotten the whole point of having different brands.
These days, yes, they are all pretty much the same, because all
the cars they're making are pretty much the same, and that is part of
what is killing them.
--scott

I dunno, I have a Shelby Mustang vert and it is great!
Except in the snow we are getting in the northeast these days

I have not had a single problem and most of my Mustang friends are having
similar experiences, those past the 2005 first year of course which had
it's problems, although minor.

I do all my own work and fix cars for friends etc and one thing that I
have
learned is that the rice cars screw you royally with parts costs.
They also are very lean with service information provided to the public.
For my Mustang, you can buy the exact same manual Ford uses.
For a Lexus?
Forget it.
So why should a coilpack for a Dodge cost $80.00 and yet is $450 for a
Camry?

LoL I have had more chysler products than you can shake a stick at
there was a time when the slant 6's were popular I wouldn't leave my
driveway without a spare starter and alternator in the trunk
My K cars went through transmissions and camshafts like I go through a bag
of reese's peanut butter cups
in fact I got so I could put a cam shaft in a 2.2 in about 30 minute and
with two vise grips to hold the blet to the pullys I wouldn't have to retime
the motor
I still have a 99 half ton van(that will need a trasnmission soon)
I will say I was able to keep a b350 extended van on the road for 300,000
miles
my 94 bravada(my first gm since my 67 duce and a quarter) just turned
200,000 and is getting pretty ratty but feels like it has anoher 50K left to
it

I doubt I will ever own a car not from the big american companies cause
there is something comforting to be able to get a car repaired by someone
who has 30 years experiance working on what is essential the same car he
bought as a boy.
george

[Chris Hornbeck]

On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 14:33:36 +0000, Laurence Payne
wrote:


But you don't see many people who want a car but don't have one. And
they all get you there. Are we going to try to prop up
over-consumption for a few more years or accept that the days of
"create a need by marketing" are over?

And people like me who have a car and DON'T want one.

I really actively resent the local structure that makes
travel over small local distances difficult and/or
dangerous without a car.

We, meaning we Americans, could be doing a whole ****load
better, but aren't. It's a lack of vision, a lack of motivation,
a lack of leadership, a lack of education, and pure laziness.
A dangerous combination.

Of course, we *can* continue to buy oil from the Middle East,
with money borrowed from China, for maybe another generation. And,
hopefully, we'll be dead before we get caught out. Yeah, that's
the ticket.


Much thanks, as always,
Chris Hornbeck

[Chris Hornbeck]

On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 23:16:46 -0500, Charlie Olsen
wrote:


I really actively resent the local structure that makes
travel over small local distances difficult and/or
dangerous without a car.

Not where I live.
We have bicycle paths everywhere.

One of the joys of my life is my visits to the People's
Republic of Portland, currently ice-encrusted, but normally
a haven of sanity in an insane world. All major streets
have bike paths, and you can get everywhere easily and
affordably by bus and/or train. It's *not* some impossibly
Olympian goal - it's easily do-able with just some gumption.

Our current sad state of affairs is simply a poor choice
of model. Fortunately, in America, this can be fixed. At
least, it used to be possible...

I refuse to believe that we can't similarly rise to the
challenge. The generation that left us such a wonderful
country rose to a much greater challenge - can we do less?


Much thanks, as always,
Chris Hornbeck

[Richard Crowley]

"Chris Hornbeck" wrote ..
One of the joys of my life is my visits to the People's
Republic of Portland, currently ice-encrusted, but normally
a haven of sanity in an insane world. All major streets
have bike paths, and you can get everywhere easily and
affordably by bus and/or train. It's *not* some impossibly
Olympian goal - it's easily do-able with just some gumption.

I'm sure it seems nice if you are visiting, but you wouldn't
want to live here. Unless you actually endorse government-
created congestion. They openly admit that they want
everyone out of their cars and onto public transit.

Sure, I can take the MAX light-rail to the airport. But the
actual cost of that ride (after including the federal subsidies)
is more than renting a stretch limo with champagne and
caviar.

It takes me ~10 minutes to drive to work. But if I wanted
to ride the bus, it takes 1 hour and 20 minutes. I guarantee
I use less fossil fuel driving to work in my minivan than my
share of the diesel fuel for the big bus.

And our fine government not only pays a premium for
"bio-diesel" fuel, but also pays through the nose for that
"green decision" The vehicles running on bio-diesel take
several times more maintenance than the conventional
engines, and they are voiding the manufacturers' engine
warranties by running fuel they weren't designed for.
But at least it is "green", right?

[Chris Hornbeck]

On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 21:07:26 -0800, "Richard Crowley"
wrote:

"Chris Hornbeck" wrote ..
One of the joys of my life is my visits to the People's
Republic of Portland, currently ice-encrusted, but normally
a haven of sanity in an insane world. All major streets
have bike paths, and you can get everywhere easily and
affordably by bus and/or train. It's *not* some impossibly
Olympian goal - it's easily do-able with just some gumption.

I'm sure it seems nice if you are visiting, but you wouldn't
want to live here. Unless you actually endorse government-
created congestion. They openly admit that they want
everyone out of their cars and onto public transit.

How does congestion factor in?... And, yeah, I'd love to be
out of my car. Not possible in most places (like here in Little
Rock - I actually have a company vehicle - disclaimer).

How can public transit *not* reduce congestion? I live in a small
town with terrible rush hour congestion, and ****-poor public
transportation, like the vast majority of America, so I'll
be very critical of any high-falutin' pronouncements from
anybody actually having an alternative - that WORKS, and works
just great. You may feel inconvenienced by a bus on YOUR road,
but the alternative, believe me, is much, much worse.


Sure, I can take the MAX light-rail to the airport. But the
actual cost of that ride (after including the federal subsidies)
is more than renting a stretch limo with champagne and
caviar.

The actual cost of travel is almost *all* in the bottom of
the iceberg. How much of the cost of highways is subsumed
in taxes? How many young Americans have to be maimed and
killed in the Middle East to maintain the status quo?

If highway travel were actually paid for appropriately,
on a purely capitalistic basis, everyone paying his fair
share, with proper capitalitic feedback mechanisms in
place and operating, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

But it's not. Keeping the status quo of artificially low
petroleum prices (ignoring the actual, real costs in
pollution, military insanity, swept-under-the-rug taxes,
and all), subsidized highways, and our pretend-model of
currently-popular-modern-economics (borrow from China to
pay Saudi Arabia) is a death spiral. It's a really, really
bad ****ing idea. We need to stop it.


It takes me ~10 minutes to drive to work. But if I wanted
to ride the bus, it takes 1 hour and 20 minutes. I guarantee
I use less fossil fuel driving to work in my minivan than my
share of the diesel fuel for the big bus.

Quite possibly true, but at least you have the option.
Most of America doesn't; that's my beef.


And our fine government not only pays a premium for
"bio-diesel" fuel, but also pays through the nose for that
"green decision" The vehicles running on bio-diesel take
several times more maintenance than the conventional
engines, and they are voiding the manufacturers' engine
warranties by running fuel they weren't designed for.
But at least it is "green", right?

Everything costs something. The important engineering
decision is always "what is the best tradeoff?" And that
decision needs to be made with an appropriate perspective,
one that includes a longer point of view than the immediate
I-got-mine perspective that our generation will sadly be
remembered for.


We haven't paid for our time here. That's a sin. We need to fix
the situation, and fast. Or, just be the asshole generation.


Sorry if I seem grumpy, but that's the way I feel. And I'm
always thankful for your comments,
Chris Hornebck

[Richard Crowley]

"Chris Hornbeck" wrote ...
"Richard Crowley" wrote:
"Chris Hornbeck" wrote ..
One of the joys of my life is my visits to the People's
Republic of Portland, currently ice-encrusted, but normally
a haven of sanity in an insane world. All major streets
have bike paths, and you can get everywhere easily and
affordably by bus and/or train. It's *not* some impossibly
Olympian goal - it's easily do-able with just some gumption.

I'm sure it seems nice if you are visiting, but you wouldn't
want to live here. Unless you actually endorse government-
created congestion. They openly admit that they want
everyone out of their cars and onto public transit.

How does congestion factor in?...

When I moved here 30 years ago, it took 30-45 minutes to
get across town (Hillsboro to Gresham). Now it takes twice
that. Most of it is because there has been NO significant
improvement of the infrastructure in decades. They have
****ed away our tax money on stuff even they can't remember.

And, yeah, I'd love to be
out of my car. Not possible in most places (like here in Little
Rock - I actually have a company vehicle - disclaimer).

What do you do? Do you have some sort of job where you
can take you job with you in a backpack? Many of us have
jobs that require more than that.

How can public transit *not* reduce congestion? I live in a small
town with terrible rush hour congestion, and ****-poor public
transportation, like the vast majority of America, so I'll
be very critical of any high-falutin' pronouncements from
anybody actually having an alternative - that WORKS, and works
just great. You may feel inconvenienced by a bus on YOUR road,
but the alternative, believe me, is much, much worse.

But the sad fact is that it *doesn't* work. The billion-dollar light
rail system bogs down if it has to carry even 10% of the commuters
who travel daily. They tried to tell us how much improved I-84
(eastside) and OR26 (westside) traffic would be when the MAX
took all those cars off the road. It made no perceptable difference
in vehicular traffic by their own measurements. NONE of the MAX
phases were approved by the voters. But government at all levels
is increasing hostile towards voting taxpayer citizens. They just
get their friendly (government employee) judges to overturn any
vote they they don't like. Check out the record of the taxpayers vs.
state government/judicial system here in Oregon. It is a travesty
of representative government.

The actual cost of travel is almost *all* in the bottom of
the iceberg. How much of the cost of highways is subsumed
in taxes?

Why should we spend 10x as much on a public transit boondoggle
like MAX light rail when it has the capacity for only a small
fraction of the traffic?

How many young Americans have to be maimed and
killed in the Middle East to maintain the status quo?

Oh please. This isn't about war. The same roads will be
used by the magic air-powered "green" cars.

If highway travel were actually paid for appropriately,
on a purely capitalistic basis, everyone paying his fair
share, with proper capitalitic feedback mechanisms in
place and operating, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

But it's not. Keeping the status quo of artificially low
petroleum prices (ignoring the actual, real costs in
pollution, military insanity, swept-under-the-rug taxes,
and all), subsidized highways, and our pretend-model of
currently-popular-modern-economics (borrow from China to
pay Saudi Arabia) is a death spiral. It's a really, really
bad ****ing idea. We need to stop it.

Was $4/gal "artifically low" How much do you think gas
should cost? Do you think everyone on the planet should
pay the same price? According to NOAA's own stats,
was the hottest year on record before or after the great
explosion in fossil-fuel burning vehicles? Don't try that
chicken-little sky is falling "global warming" argument.
Even Algore had to change the name to "climate change"
because the "warming" part doesn't seem to be working
out for him. But we can depend on "change" at least.
It would be hilarious if it weren't pathetic.

It takes me ~10 minutes to drive to work. But if I wanted
to ride the bus, it takes 1 hour and 20 minutes. I guarantee
I use less fossil fuel driving to work in my minivan than my
share of the diesel fuel for the big bus.

Quite possibly true, but at least you have the option.
Most of America doesn't; that's my beef.

Spending 10x as long to travel to work and burning more
fuel is an "option"? Include me out of that.

And our fine government not only pays a premium for
"bio-diesel" fuel, but also pays through the nose for that
"green decision" The vehicles running on bio-diesel take
several times more maintenance than the conventional
engines, and they are voiding the manufacturers' engine
warranties by running fuel they weren't designed for.
But at least it is "green", right?

Everything costs something. The important engineering
decision is always "what is the best tradeoff?" And that
decision needs to be made with an appropriate perspective,
one that includes a longer point of view than the immediate
I-got-mine perspective that our generation will sadly be
remembered for.

The last several administrations here in PDX have made it
abundantly clear that their priority was PR and making
Portland appear to be "green" and "progressive". Apparently
it is working as you have shown that the city has a much
better reputation with transient visitors than it does with
its own taxpaying residents. But city hall doesn'tt really give
a rip about their own citizens as long as the tax revenues
keep coming in. And if tax revenues fall (because of their
notoriously hostile attitude towards business), their go-to
solution is not to attract more tax-paying industry, they
just raise the taxes on those who are left. (And there are
fewer and fewer left as business just bail when they are
clearly not wanted.)

We haven't paid for our time here. That's a sin. We need to fix
the situation, and fast. Or, just be the asshole generation.

I'm sure that Obama will lead us right into it. Fasten your
seatbelts, gentlemen.

[Mickey]

On 2008-12-22, Chris Hornbeck wrote:
On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 14:33:36 +0000, Laurence Payne
wrote:


But you don't see many people who want a car but don't have one. And
they all get you there. Are we going to try to prop up
over-consumption for a few more years or accept that the days of
"create a need by marketing" are over?

And people like me who have a car and DON'T want one.

I really actively resent the local structure that makes
travel over small local distances difficult and/or
dangerous without a car.

It is nowhere near as easy to do public transit here as it is
in Europe, you know.


We, meaning we Americans, could be doing a whole ****load
better, but aren't. It's a lack of vision, a lack of motivation,
a lack of leadership, a lack of education, and pure laziness.
A dangerous combination.

There I have to agree with you.


Of course, we *can* continue to buy oil from the Middle East,
with money borrowed from China, for maybe another generation. And,
hopefully, we'll be dead before we get caught out. Yeah, that's
the ticket.

It is not that bad -- your generation will not be the one to make
the doom and gloom come true, just like the last 50 haven't had it
come true.

We have a unique opportunity to change a few things right now, though.
With low fuel prices, the time is right for a $1.00 a gallon gasoline
tax that will fund infrastructure, discourage consumption, and help
balance our books. The large recession / depression will encourage
national thrift.

Now we will see if anyone has the balls to propose it and fight
for it.

--
Mickey
For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public
relations, for Nature cannot be fooled. -- Dick Feynman

[[email protected]]

On Dec 22, 8:16 am, Mickey wrote:

Now we will see if anyone has the balls to propose it and fight
for it.

ha ha, not here in Amerikkka. We are bigots who are lazy and blame
everyone else!!
we call them rice burners, nice bigotry
and blame the unions, have you studied how the car companies exploited
the workforce with armed goons??

[George's Pro Sound Company]

wrote in message
...
On Dec 22, 8:16 am, Mickey wrote:

Now we will see if anyone has the balls to propose it and fight
for it.

ha ha, not here in Amerikkka. We are bigots who are lazy and blame
everyone else!!
we call them rice burners, nice bigotry
and blame the unions, have you studied how the car companies exploited
the workforce with armed goons??

have you studied how the unions exploited the car compaines with lawyers and
fountain pens?
george

[[email protected]]

On Dec 22, 1:28 pm, "George's Pro Sound Company"
wrote:

have you studied how the unions exploited the car compaines with lawyers and
fountain pens?

yep, you should check out the Walter and May Ruether Family Education
Center
in Black Lake ,MI. The Union big wigs are very spoiled!!

[Les Cargill]

Chris Hornbeck wrote:
On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 14:33:36 +0000, Laurence Payne
wrote:


But you don't see many people who want a car but don't have one. And
they all get you there. Are we going to try to prop up
over-consumption for a few more years or accept that the days of
"create a need by marketing" are over?

And people like me who have a car and DON'T want one.

I really actively resent the local structure that makes
travel over small local distances difficult and/or
dangerous without a car.


That is because you can buy a car for very close to nothing.
You can't insure it, but....

We, meaning we Americans, could be doing a whole ****load
better, but aren't. It's a lack of vision, a lack of motivation,
a lack of leadership, a lack of education, and pure laziness.
A dangerous combination.


We love cars. Disney made a movie about anthropomorphized cars
in animation form. They are like our avatar. Riding
through mansions of glory in suicide machines....
I'll gas up my hot rod stoker, We'll get hotter than a poker,
You'll be broke, but I'll be broker, Tonight we're settin' the
woods on fire...

Of course, we *can* continue to buy oil from the Middle East,
with money borrowed from China, for maybe another generation. And,
hopefully, we'll be dead before we get caught out. Yeah, that's
the ticket.


Long as the numbers work out, sure. Bring back $400 bbl oil, sez I.

That'll learn us.


Much thanks, as always,
Chris Hornbeck

--
Les Cargill

[Les Cargill]

Richard Crowley wrote:
"Chris Hornbeck" wrote ...
snip

Was $4/gal "artifically low" How much do you think gas
should cost?

What does it cost to replace it? there is your answer.

snip
I'm sure that Obama will lead us right into it. Fasten your
seatbelts, gentlemen.



Or else. (Click it or ticket!)

--
Les Cargill

[Les Cargill]

Mickey wrote:
On 2008-12-22, Chris Hornbeck wrote:
snip
We have a unique opportunity to change a few things right now, though.
With low fuel prices, the time is right for a $1.00 a gallon gasoline
tax that will fund infrastructure, discourage consumption, and help
balance our books. The large recession / depression will encourage
national thrift.

Now we will see if anyone has the balls to propose it and fight
for it.



Sounds great. It's a horrible idea. Now the government is incented
to encourage consumption....

--
Les Cargill

[Les Cargill]

wrote:
On Dec 22, 8:16 am, Mickey wrote:

Now we will see if anyone has the balls to propose it and fight
for it.

ha ha, not here in Amerikkka. We are bigots who are lazy and blame
everyone else!!
we call them rice burners, nice bigotry
and blame the unions, have you studied how the car companies exploited
the workforce with armed goons??



Well, what, the goons were just supposed to drool on them? I
mean, what fun is it being an *un*armed goon?

Labor history is very interesting, and almost impossible to
read about.

--
Les Cargill

[[email protected]]

On Dec 22, 9:39 pm, Charlie Olsen wrote:
On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 21:04:46 -0500, Les Cargill wrote:
wrote:
On Dec 22, 8:16 am, Mickey wrote:

Now we will see if anyone has the balls to propose it and fight
for it.

ha ha, not here in Amerikkka. We are bigots who are lazy and blame
everyone else!!
we call them rice burners, nice bigotry
and blame the unions, have you studied how the car companies exploited
the workforce with armed goons??

Well, what, the goons were just supposed to drool on them? I
mean, what fun is it being an *un*armed goon?

Labor history is very interesting, and almost impossible to
read about.

Actually he is correct about management strong arm tactics.
See Henry Ford for details.

As for the rice burner comment, I seriously doubt any car nut means it in a
derogatory fashion.
The ricers and muscle car enthusiasts have for the most part healthy
competition.
I'm on the muscle car side but the ricers are kool too.

I am not a Queen fan but

I want to ride my bicycle


ps fat bottom girls ...(where is that poster)

[Mike Rivers]

Does anyone have anything more to say about LOUD/Mackie's problem here?
If not, please change the subject or take this to another room.

Merry Christmas to all the out-of-work and furloughed Mackie employees.

[[email protected]]

On Dec 23, 7:15 am, Mike Rivers wrote:
Does anyone have anything more to say about LOUD/Mackie's problem here?
If not, please change the subject or take this to another room.
damn, you got a real job as a usenet police person
Merry Christmas to all the out-of-work and furloughed Mackie employees.

winter solstice salutations to all