[Nate Najar]

I could be persuaded to buy an mkh 80 if you had one on offer.....

[Scott Dorsey]

In article ,
Nate Najar wrote:
I could be persuaded to buy an mkh 80 if you had one on offer.....

So what are you replacing the Schoeps with?
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Nate Najar]

On Wednesday, April 13, 2016 at 8:32:41 AM UTC-4, Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article ,
Nate Najar wrote:
I could be persuaded to buy an mkh 80 if you had one on offer.....

So what are you replacing the Schoeps with?
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

I haven't had any bites on the schoeps, and as I said in the ad, I don't *need* to sell them, but I heard a record on the radio the other day that I recorded and mixed with the schoeps on drums and it sounded so good I'm not sure I want to sell them.

The schoeps are the only pair I have of something so they always get used on drums now. I just figured I could get something else for drums and have money left over to buy something else I could use. I don't own a 441 and I borrow one all the time, a pair of those could be useful in the kit.

that's the long answer. the short answer is, I could get another used mkh40 and then I'd have a pair of those, but I've thought even a pair of josephson series 4 would be great where I often use the pair of schoeps. Or the Gefell M300. Or M930. I am not recording orchestras and I don't see that happening anytime soon. But a pair of new caps for the Schoeps costs nearly as much as a pair of other very useful mics.....

but I'll probably keep the schoeps unless someone really wants them, and just slowly add. There's enough guys around here willing to loan me things that it isn't a huge deal, but I prefer to have my own.

I used an mkh80 at a buddy's place yesterday to record a few solo guitar things... I had just stopped by to say hello- his mix client never showed up- and I had my guitar with me so he said "I have 4 of these and use them all the time... I'd love to see how it sounds on your guitar" and I was really impressed and I could see a pair of those getting a lot of use around here.. I don't want an 800 though, too expensive and I don't need to make music for bats

I prefer more high quality mics than most because I'm often recording most or all of the ensemble at once, with a lot of bleed.... I just mixed a record last week where we used a 421 on the bass, but it was a current one (a II model.... it was all the studio had). I really wish I had used an re20. The trumpet spill into the bass mic sounds dreadful.

I'm just trying to maximize my capabilities for minimum cash.

[Scott Dorsey]

Nate Najar wrote:
I haven't had any bites on the schoeps, and as I said in the ad, I don't *n=
eed* to sell them, but I heard a record on the radio the other day that I r=
ecorded and mixed with the schoeps on drums and it sounded so good I'm not =
sure I want to sell them. =20

If you like it, don't sell it, because later on you're just going to wish
you had it again.

The schoeps are the only pair I have of something so they always get used o=
n drums now. I just figured I could get something else for drums and have =
money left over to buy something else I could use. I don't own a 441 and I=
borrow one all the time, a pair of those could be useful in the kit. =20

That's a terrible reason to sell them!

Try the EV N/D 468... it's 75% of the 441 at 10% of the price. It's not
as nice as the 441, but it's really not bad.

I used an mkh80 at a buddy's place yesterday to record a few solo guitar th=
ings... I had just stopped by to say hello- his mix client never showed up-=
and I had my guitar with me so he said "I have 4 of these and use them all=
the time... I'd love to see how it sounds on your guitar" and I was really=
impressed and I could see a pair of those getting a lot of use around here=
. I don't want an 800 though, too expensive and I don't need to make music=
for bats

The 80 is quieter than the Schoeps but the lower midrange is a little weird.
It's a good microphone and it's in the Schoeps league but it's very much
a matter of horses for courses.

I prefer more high quality mics than most because I'm often recording most =
or all of the ensemble at once, with a lot of bleed.... I just mixed a reco=
rd last week where we used a 421 on the bass, but it was a current one (a I=
I model.... it was all the studio had). I really wish I had used an re20. =
The trumpet spill into the bass mic sounds dreadful. =20

So how was the bass leakage into the other mikes? Many times I have wound
up using area mikes with some EQ in place of a bass fiddle mike. You might
be able to use creative leakage and not use the bass mike at all.

Or try pulling out a whole lot around 3 or 4 Khz on the bass mike.... the thing
about the new 421 is that it has a lot of presence boost that the original
didn't have. You can't do anything to reduce the leakage at this point but
you can EQ the crap out of it to make the leakage sound better. And it's
probably more important that the horn sound good than the bass.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Nate Najar]

On Friday, April 15, 2016 at 10:51:30 AM UTC-4, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Nate Najar wrote:
I haven't had any bites on the schoeps, and as I said in the ad, I don't *n=
eed* to sell them, but I heard a record on the radio the other day that I r=
ecorded and mixed with the schoeps on drums and it sounded so good I'm not =
sure I want to sell them. =20

If you like it, don't sell it, because later on you're just going to wish
you had it again.

The schoeps are the only pair I have of something so they always get used o=
n drums now. I just figured I could get something else for drums and have =
money left over to buy something else I could use. I don't own a 441 and I=
borrow one all the time, a pair of those could be useful in the kit. =20

That's a terrible reason to sell them!

Try the EV N/D 468... it's 75% of the 441 at 10% of the price. It's not
as nice as the 441, but it's really not bad.

I used an mkh80 at a buddy's place yesterday to record a few solo guitar th=
ings... I had just stopped by to say hello- his mix client never showed up-=
and I had my guitar with me so he said "I have 4 of these and use them all=
the time... I'd love to see how it sounds on your guitar" and I was really=
impressed and I could see a pair of those getting a lot of use around here=
. I don't want an 800 though, too expensive and I don't need to make music=
for bats

The 80 is quieter than the Schoeps but the lower midrange is a little weird.
It's a good microphone and it's in the Schoeps league but it's very much
a matter of horses for courses.

I prefer more high quality mics than most because I'm often recording most =
or all of the ensemble at once, with a lot of bleed.... I just mixed a reco=
rd last week where we used a 421 on the bass, but it was a current one (a I=
I model.... it was all the studio had). I really wish I had used an re20. =
The trumpet spill into the bass mic sounds dreadful. =20

So how was the bass leakage into the other mikes? Many times I have wound
up using area mikes with some EQ in place of a bass fiddle mike. You might
be able to use creative leakage and not use the bass mike at all.

Or try pulling out a whole lot around 3 or 4 Khz on the bass mike.... the thing
about the new 421 is that it has a lot of presence boost that the original
didn't have. You can't do anything to reduce the leakage at this point but
you can EQ the crap out of it to make the leakage sound better. And it's
probably more important that the horn sound good than the bass.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

you talked me out of it. it is silly anyway, I'd probably never replace them. But as I said, they always end up on drum overheads (they sound so good there!) and I figured I could get something that would keep me as happy in that application plus also a few other things to add to the kit.

I am really enjoying my mkh40 on the guitar, moreso than the schoeps, but it's mostly a function of pattern and the room. I still want a pair of mkh80 for utility duty.

I'll try that EV you mentioned- are you suggesting it's similar to the 441 in terms of pattern or response or both? I just recently bought an ev 767 for my talk mic for sound reinforcement... I've been using an re15 for a few years, and last night I used the new ev and I really liked it.

on that record, there wasn't much bass leakage at all into the other mics, but we were gobo'd off fairly well. the trumpet just has that ability to "cut" and the 421 presence peak liked it.

one of these days I'll bite the bullet and get an rca44... that is my favorite upright bass mic. But then I'll need another one for brass and you know how that goes. I've done fairly well keeping this whole music game sort of profitable but I'd like to continue down that path!

[Scott Dorsey]

Nate Najar wrote:
On Friday, April 15, 2016 at 10:51:30 AM UTC-4, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Nate Najar wrote:

you talked me out of it. it is silly anyway, I'd probably never replace th=
em. But as I said, they always end up on drum overheads (they sound so goo=
d there!) and I figured I could get something that would keep me as happy i=
n that application plus also a few other things to add to the kit.

Depending on how obsessed you are with drum sounds, you mgiht not find
anything to make you happy.

You might also consider pulling them back and using them as drum mikes but
also for other instruments at the same time.

I am really enjoying my mkh40 on the guitar, moreso than the schoeps, but i=
t's mostly a function of pattern and the room. I still want a pair of mkh8=
0 for utility duty.

The MKH80 is a little more versatile than the MKH40, but not really all that
much.

I'll try that EV you mentioned- are you suggesting it's similar to the 441 =
in terms of pattern or response or both? I just recently bought an ev 767 f=
or my talk mic for sound reinforcement... I've been using an re15 for a few=
years, and last night I used the new ev and I really liked it.

The pattern on the N/D 468 is not quite as nice as the 441, and so the
off-axis leakage doesn't sound quite as good. On-axis it's not quite
as flat but the general tone (without a presence peak) is similar.

On the other hand, the output level is a whole lot higher, so the 468
is a clear win if you're having to go into a cheap preamp. It also has
a very low profile and doesn't block sight lines on camera.

You can see one here on the singer doing the Dvorak piece:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlt-2iQ6kzQ

It's not the mike I would have picked for her, but I needed low profile
and I had a very limited kit available to me (since I was sort of on vacation
and not really expecting to have to deal with an orchestra).

on that record, there wasn't much bass leakage at all into the other mics, =
but we were gobo'd off fairly well. the trumpet just has that ability to "=
cut" and the 421 presence peak liked it. =20

Bass leakage is not really a bad thing since in most cases you can just
roll it off, and when you can't roll it off you can often just work with
it as part of the bass sound. I have done plenty of records where I wound
up not using the bass spot at all.

one of these days I'll bite the bullet and get an rca44... that is my favor=
ite upright bass mic. But then I'll need another one for brass and you kno=
w how that goes. I've done fairly well keeping this whole music game sort =
of profitable but I'd like to continue down that path!

You know, I am really not a fan of the 44. But it's one of those mikes
that you can readily rent if you really really need one. I have a couple
that I rescued from a dumpster in the seventies and they get used now and
then but the lack of top end definition puts them way down the scale below
the BK-11 for me.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Frank Stearns]

(Scott Dorsey) writes:

snips

You can see one here on the singer doing the Dvorak piece:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlt-2iQ6kzQ

What's the stereo pair and configuration? Narrow splay and close proximity seems
like there wouldn't be much of an image but maybe there is? (At the moment, all
my headphones are packed for a location gig. All I could listen on before leaving
for the day are horrid 1" speakers built into a small seconday flat panel).

Didn't know Worldcon fielded such a high-calibre group!

Frank
Mobile Audio

--

[Scott Dorsey]

Frank Stearns wrote:
(Scott Dorsey) writes:

snips

You can see one here on the singer doing the Dvorak piece:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlt-2iQ6kzQ

What's the stereo pair and configuration? Narrow splay and close proximity seems
like there wouldn't be much of an image but maybe there is? (At the moment, all
my headphones are packed for a location gig. All I could listen on before leaving
for the day are horrid 1" speakers built into a small seconday flat panel).

It was miked for PA, for the most part. That is a pair of Schoeps Collettes
with the hypercardioid capsules, in a Behringer stereo bar gaff-taped to the
top of a drape stand on the stage fender. They are out around 110 degrees.
There are also 451s on the bass section, the percussion section, the two 468s
on the harp and the vocal. Additional spots on the theremin and the piano.

The intention on the part of the producer was to make the concert sound like
a film soundtrack rather than a live orchestra, but I didn't have enough
sectional mikes or time available to do the full Hollywood treatment.

The recording mix was pretty much just the PA mix with the percussion turned
down; I was making the recording mix from the PA console without proper
monitoring. The mix on the video has been collapsed in a little and some
reverb added. It feels awfully heavy-handed to me.

Didn't know Worldcon fielded such a high-calibre group!

This is what you get if you make a union call in London! Lots of London
Philharmonic and BBC Orchestra people! They came in, did a run-through
in the morning, and then the performance in the evening. This isn't
surprising for works like the Star Wars theme and the Holst which everybody
has probably played a million times, but they did a couple new pieces and
did them well. We'll be doing it again in Finland next year!
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Frank Stearns]

(Scott Dorsey) writes:

Frank Stearns wrote:
(Scott Dorsey) writes:

snips

You can see one here on the singer doing the Dvorak piece:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlt-2iQ6kzQ

What's the stereo pair and configuration? Narrow splay and close proximity seems
like there wouldn't be much of an image but maybe there is? (At the moment, all
my headphones are packed for a location gig. All I could listen on before leaving
for the day are horrid 1" speakers built into a small seconday flat panel).

It was miked for PA, for the most part. That is a pair of Schoeps Collettes
with the hypercardioid capsules, in a Behringer stereo bar gaff-taped to the
top of a drape stand on the stage fender. They are out around 110 degrees.
There are also 451s on the bass section, the percussion section, the two 468s
on the harp and the vocal. Additional spots on the theremin and the piano.

Interesting, thanks for the details. Finally got a chance to listen with something
better than flat-panel speakers... Spectrally, sounds wonderful; well balanced. It
did seem a touch "mono-ish" to me, but that could be a Utoob artifact. Or, perhaps
the video post people were afraid of pan pots. More than once I've seen video folks
tasked with audio set pan pots at 12:00 o'clock, or darn close, perhaps fearing
their video compatriots will eventually drop one of the audio channels in any case
(seen that often enough). And of course, on a stereo pair, you typically want those
channels hard left and hard right.


The intention on the part of the producer was to make the concert sound like
a film soundtrack rather than a live orchestra, but I didn't have enough
sectional mikes or time available to do the full Hollywood treatment.

Sounded pretty good, though. And, you can get fairly close to that scoring sound
with less than 30 microphones. The wind symphony I did a few days ago (55 piece)
wound up sounding close to "good Hollywood." I did that with a stereo pair (KM183s
right over the conductor's head), two front left/right outriggers also with two
rear-section mics high up center left rear and center right rear (Gefell M940
hypers), supplemented upstage far left and far right by Shure M202 microflexes.

I close spotted the french horns with Gefell M930s. The 183s did most of the work,
but the "focus" from those Gefell hypers let me "reach in" where needed to get that
big scoring sound. With those dedicated horn channels, I was able to turn three
somewhat overwhelmed instruments into a 12-horn battery, when the piece called for
a big ("Hollywood") french horn sound.

(Typically, I probobably wouldn't do this much in a hall setting, but this space is
really tailored for speech. RT60 above 5 Khz is about 30 ms. Poorly suited for
orchestral recording. But it's the only game in town.)

If there's interest, I'll see about posting something once it's mixed edited.

The recording mix was pretty much just the PA mix with the percussion turned
down; I was making the recording mix from the PA console without proper
monitoring. The mix on the video has been collapsed in a little and some
reverb added. It feels awfully heavy-handed to me.

Ah, I see. Well, part of the mark of a good mix is how much abuse it can take as it
goes downstream. Again, spectral and musical balance seemed good, so the mix took
the insults quite well.

Didn't know Worldcon fielded such a high-calibre group!

This is what you get if you make a union call in London! Lots of London
Philharmonic and BBC Orchestra people! They came in, did a run-through
in the morning, and then the performance in the evening. This isn't
surprising for works like the Star Wars theme and the Holst which everybody
has probably played a million times, but they did a couple new pieces and
did them well. We'll be doing it again in Finland next year!

Sounds like a fun gig. How long have you been doing it? How did you land it the
first time?

Frank
Mobile Audio

--

[Scott Dorsey]

Frank Stearns wrote:
(Scott Dorsey) writes:

You can see one here on the singer doing the Dvorak piece:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlt-2iQ6kzQ

The intention on the part of the producer was to make the concert sound like
a film soundtrack rather than a live orchestra, but I didn't have enough
sectional mikes or time available to do the full Hollywood treatment.

Sounded pretty good, though. And, you can get fairly close to that scoring sound
with less than 30 microphones. The wind symphony I did a few days ago (55 piece)
wound up sounding close to "good Hollywood." I did that with a stereo pair (KM183s
right over the conductor's head), two front left/right outriggers also with two
rear-section mics high up center left rear and center right rear (Gefell M940
hypers), supplemented upstage far left and far right by Shure M202 microflexes.

I close spotted the french horns with Gefell M930s. The 183s did most of the work,
but the "focus" from those Gefell hypers let me "reach in" where needed to get that
big scoring sound. With those dedicated horn channels, I was able to turn three
somewhat overwhelmed instruments into a 12-horn battery, when the piece called for
a big ("Hollywood") french horn sound.

Did you spot the fiddles? What I really missed I think was that up-front
mushy mashed potatoes sort of fiddle sound that seems a big part of the film
soundtrack sound. Spots would have helped a lot. A couple extra hours would
have helped a lot.

(Typically, I probobably wouldn't do this much in a hall setting, but this space is
really tailored for speech. RT60 above 5 Khz is about 30 ms. Poorly suited for
orchestral recording. But it's the only game in town.)

For a film orchestra, that might not be too far off. Build it from spots,
add a little reverb. It won't sound anything like the real thing but it'll
sound like a movie.

The recording mix was pretty much just the PA mix with the percussion turned
down; I was making the recording mix from the PA console without proper
monitoring. The mix on the video has been collapsed in a little and some
reverb added. It feels awfully heavy-handed to me.

Ah, I see. Well, part of the mark of a good mix is how much abuse it can take as it
goes downstream. Again, spectral and musical balance seemed good, so the mix took
the insults quite well.

No, no, I mean that the original mix was very heavy handed... the percussion
stands out like a sore thumb to me for instance. The video guy actually did
a very good job with it. (He was Syd Weinstein by the way).

Sounds like a fun gig. How long have you been doing it? How did you land it the
first time?

When I was 14 years old I was at an SF convention and they were looking for
someone to run a 16mm projector and I said that I knew how to run a projector
and next thing I knew and a couple decades later I was sound designer for
Worldcon. I have pretty much retired from that position but I still get
volunteered for the weirdest things at the last minute. It's great fun.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."