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nebulax nebulax is offline
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Default Doug Sax on wire

I just uncovered a copy of Recording magazine from Oct 2001, and the
theme for this issue was mastering. They interviewed Doug Sax, and
when asked about what wire he used at the Mastering Lab, here's what
he said:

"We have done extensive listening to wire.We use Alpha
1775C. It is inexpensive, but very hard to work with since
it is solid core wire, and cannot be flexed much at all."

I looked up that wire at Alpha's site - http://www.alphawire.com/pages/194.cfm
.. Seems to be a pretty basic communications cable. Has anybody else
tried using this as an interconnect?

-Neb

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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Default Doug Sax on wire

nebulax wrote:
I just uncovered a copy of Recording magazine from Oct 2001, and the
theme for this issue was mastering. They interviewed Doug Sax, and
when asked about what wire he used at the Mastering Lab, here's what
he said:

"We have done extensive listening to wire.We use Alpha
1775C. It is inexpensive, but very hard to work with since
it is solid core wire, and cannot be flexed much at all."

I looked up that wire at Alpha's site - http://www.alphawire.com/pages/194.cfm
. Seems to be a pretty basic communications cable. Has anybody else
tried using this as an interconnect?


Yes, I see it (and the Belden equivalent) in installed sound installations
all the time. It's cable.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Default Doug Sax on wire

On Nov 1, 1:40 am, nebulax wrote:
I just uncovered a copy of Recording magazine from Oct 2001, and the
theme for this issue was mastering. They interviewed Doug Sax, and
when asked about what wire he used at the Mastering Lab, here's what
he said:

"We have done extensive listening to wire.We use Alpha
1775C. It is inexpensive, but very hard to work with since
it is solid core wire, and cannot be flexed much at all."

I looked up that wire at Alpha's site -http://www.alphawire.com/pages/194.cfm
. Seems to be a pretty basic communications cable. Has anybody else
tried using this as an interconnect?

-Neb


It's a common PVC copper wire, nothing special. I find the teflon
stuff to be clearer, like the belden 9182 which is a lan network cable
ideal for mic cables with it's 150 ohm impedance and 14 ohms per 1k
feet resistance and 8 pf per foot capacitance. Then the pure silver
Kimber stuff is in another league altogether.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

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Default Doug Sax on wire

On Nov 1, 4:14 pm, wrote:
Then the pure silver Kimber stuff is in another
league altogether.


Yup, just like Ponzi schemes are investments strategies
in another league altogether.



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Default Doug Sax on wire



nebulax wrote:

I just uncovered a copy of Recording magazine from Oct 2001, and the
theme for this issue was mastering. They interviewed Doug Sax, and
when asked about what wire he used at the Mastering Lab, here's what
he said:

"We have done extensive listening to wire.


IDIOTS !

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Richard Crowley Richard Crowley is offline
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Default Doug Sax on wire

"Eeyore" wrote ...
nebulax wrote:
I just uncovered a copy of Recording magazine from Oct 2001, and the
theme for this issue was mastering. They interviewed Doug Sax, and
when asked about what wire he used at the Mastering Lab, here's what
he said:

"We have done extensive listening to wire.


IDIOTS !


Are you saying that you DO believe in magic wire?
Doug Sax appears to have confirmed that ordinary wire is just fine.


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Default Doug Sax on wire

Richard Crowley wrote:
"Eeyore" wrote ...
nebulax wrote:
I just uncovered a copy of Recording magazine from Oct 2001, and the
theme for this issue was mastering. They interviewed Doug Sax, and
when asked about what wire he used at the Mastering Lab, here's what
he said:

"We have done extensive listening to wire.


IDIOTS !


Are you saying that you DO believe in magic wire?
Doug Sax appears to have confirmed that ordinary wire is just fine.


Well, I have heard differences between wires, but for the most part I am
hard pressed to say any of them were important or in any way improvements.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Default Doug Sax on wire



Richard Crowley wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote ...
nebulax wrote:
I just uncovered a copy of Recording magazine from Oct 2001, and the
theme for this issue was mastering. They interviewed Doug Sax, and
when asked about what wire he used at the Mastering Lab, here's what
he said:

"We have done extensive listening to wire.


IDIOTS !


Are you saying that you DO believe in magic wire?


No, I'm suggesting that they must have been crazy to imagine that brand A copper
'sounded' any different to brand B copper or indeed any other brand of copper.


Doug Sax appears to have confirmed that ordinary wire is just fine.


Which didn't really require listening did it ? Unless you do indeed believe in
'magic' things that affect the sound that can't be measured. Aside from peoples
brains of course ! ;~)

Graham


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Default Doug Sax on wire



Scott Dorsey wrote:

Well, I have heard differences between wires,


That weren't speaker cables or high capacitance interconnects ?


but for the most part I am hard pressed to say any of them were important or
in any way improvements.


Details please.

Graham



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Default Doug Sax on wire

Eeyore wrote:

No, I'm suggesting that they must have been crazy to imagine that brand A copper
'sounded' any different to brand B copper or indeed any other brand of copper.


As plausible interpretation of that quote was that the listening tests
confirmed that wire A did indeed sound very much the same as wire B so
they might as well pick the cheap one.

--
Anahata
-+- http://www.treewind.co.uk
Home: 01638 720444 Mob: 07976 263827
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Default Doug Sax on wire



anahata wrote:

Eeyore wrote:

No, I'm suggesting that they must have been crazy to imagine that brand A copper
'sounded' any different to brand B copper or indeed any other brand of copper.


As plausible interpretation of that quote was that the listening tests
confirmed that wire A did indeed sound very much the same as wire B so
they might as well pick the cheap one.


Only 'very much the same' ? This is the trouble with listening tests. They can be
deceptive.

Graham

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Arny Krueger Arny Krueger is offline
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Default Doug Sax on wire


wrote in message
oups.com...

On Nov 1, 4:14 pm, wrote:


Then the pure silver Kimber stuff is in another
league altogether.


Yup, just like Ponzi schemes are investments strategies
in another league altogether.


Yup, Williams is another promoter of esoteric ideas whose life would be
signficantly changed by reference to some of the hard facts of life.



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Default Doug Sax on wire


"Eeyore" wrote in message
...


Scott Dorsey wrote:

Well, I have heard differences between wires,


That weren't speaker cables or high capacitance interconnects ?


but for the most part I am hard pressed to say any of them were important
or
in any way improvements.


Details please.


I must admit that listening tests involving 50 feet runs of 24 gauge versus
12 gauge using some speakers with wild impedance curves were positive for
audible differences.

OTOH, comparisons of parallel runs of 8 feet of 3/8" steel rebar versus some
$300 a pair Monster Cable were negative for audible differences.




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Default Doug Sax on wire

On Nov 2, 9:31 am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
wrote in message

oups.com...

On Nov 1, 4:14 pm, wrote:
Then the pure silver Kimber stuff is in another
league altogether.

Yup, just like Ponzi schemes are investments strategies
in another league altogether.


Yup, Williams is another promoter of esoteric ideas whose life would be
signficantly changed by reference to some of the hard facts of life.


yep its just crazy,

you may argue that you need a listening test for a mic or a speaker,,,

but a hunk of wire!!!!...

we can MEASURE any characteristic about a wire that you might care to
think of down to the 0.001 dB level out to 1000MHz and beyond.

Mark




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Default Doug Sax on wire

Eeyore wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote:

Well, I have heard differences between wires,


That weren't speaker cables or high capacitance interconnects ?


Well, in some cases they were very long microphone cables with ribbon
mike sources, where the cable reactance WAS becoming a problem.

But in other cases I have heard weirdness that I cannot explain. I can
tell the difference between an 18ga solid core and an 18ga stranded
speaker cable. Makes no sense at all, but it was there.

I can believe someone might hear a difference between a non-copper cable
like the silver cable, and I can believe it might be due to rectification
effects. I know that I can hear a difference between copper-clad-steel
RG-174 and similar copper cable. I am pretty sure that is due to junction
issues.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Default Doug Sax on wire


"hank alrich" wrote in message
...
Arny Krueger wrote:

wrote in message
oups.com...

On Nov 1, 4:14 pm, wrote:


Then the pure silver Kimber stuff is in another
league altogether.


Yup, just like Ponzi schemes are investments strategies
in another league altogether.


Yup, Williams is another promoter of esoteric ideas whose life would be
signficantly changed by reference to some of the hard facts of life.


Having run his mod'd AKG C460's against the stock item, I call bull****
on you.


Preference is based on historical knowlege, expectations and the immediate
experience. Since only 1/3 of those things actually relate directly to any
listening test that any of us might do, all listening tests are therefore
highly suspect unless they somehow deal with the other 2/3.

I'm pretty sure the guy's test bench can hold its own against yours.


Anybody can buy equipment, and the more intelligent ones can learn how to
properly use it. Thing is, I haven't seen just one post from Williams that
says that he actually has any relevant bench test results to share.

For example, if one of Williams' mods dropped a mic's A-weighted noise by 6
dB that would be very good news for all of us. Have I missed something? If
so, post the relevant URL in google's Usenet archive, or from a web site.


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Default Doug Sax on wire

Arny Krueger wrote:

wrote in message
oups.com...

On Nov 1, 4:14 pm, wrote:


Then the pure silver Kimber stuff is in another
league altogether.


Yup, just like Ponzi schemes are investments strategies
in another league altogether.


Yup, Williams is another promoter of esoteric ideas whose life would be
signficantly changed by reference to some of the hard facts of life.


Having run his mod'd AKG C460's against the stock item, I call bull****
on you. I'm pretty sure the guy's test bench can hold its own against
yours.

--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam
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Default Doug Sax on wire

I know that I can hear a difference between copper-clad-steel
RG-174 and similar copper cable. I am pretty sure that is due to junction
issues.
--scott


so measure it and then you can tell us for sure what it was..

Mark

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Default Doug Sax on wire


"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
Eeyore wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote:

Well, I have heard differences between wires,


That weren't speaker cables or high capacitance interconnects ?


Well, in some cases they were very long microphone cables with ribbon
mike sources, where the cable reactance WAS becoming a problem.

But in other cases I have heard weirdness that I cannot explain. I can
tell the difference between an 18ga solid core and an 18ga stranded
speaker cable. Makes no sense at all, but it was there.


I can believe that this might be true in a specific situation where all of
the relevant details are not necessarily knowable. In general, no.

I can believe someone might hear a difference between a non-copper cable
like the silver cable, and I can believe it might be due to rectification
effects. I know that I can hear a difference between copper-clad-steel
RG-174 and similar copper cable. I am pretty sure that is due to junction
issues.


For people who don't carry a RG cable characteristics table around in their
heads, RG 174 is micro coax. The center conductor is about 24 gauge. DCR
of pure copper 24 gauge is about 2.5 ohms per 100 feet. It makes pretty
crappy speaker wire, but tell that to Radio Shack!. ;-)

IME the DCR of copper-clad wire is about 4 times that of solid copper, so
now we're talking 10 ohms per 100 feet. IOW if you're driving a 110 ohm load
with a low impedance source, there's about 1 dB of loss per 100 feet. You'll
easily hear that in a close comparison.




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Default Doug Sax on wire

Mark wrote:
I know that I can hear a difference between copper-clad-steel
RG-174 and similar copper cable. I am pretty sure that is due to junction
issues.


so measure it and then you can tell us for sure what it was..


I can measure all KINDS of things... the question is which of the measured
effects is actually the one I am hearing.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Default Doug Sax on wire

"Scott Dorsey" wrote ...
Mark wrote:
I know that I can hear a difference between copper-clad-steel
RG-174 and similar copper cable. I am pretty sure that is due to
junction
issues.


so measure it and then you can tell us for sure what it was..


I can measure all KINDS of things... the question is which of the measured
effects is actually the one I am hearing.


OTOH, could you reproduce your audible effect with simple
non-inductive series resistance, etc?


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Default Doug Sax on wire

Richard Crowley wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote ...
Mark wrote:
I know that I can hear a difference between copper-clad-steel
RG-174 and similar copper cable. I am pretty sure that is due to
junction
issues.

so measure it and then you can tell us for sure what it was..


I can measure all KINDS of things... the question is which of the measured
effects is actually the one I am hearing.


OTOH, could you reproduce your audible effect with simple
non-inductive series resistance, etc?


It's entirely possible, but could I do it with the same series resistance
as the cable? That's a question.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Default Doug Sax on wire

On Thu, 1 Nov 2007 20:12:11 -0400, Richard Crowley wrote
(in article ):

"Eeyore" wrote ...
nebulax wrote:
I just uncovered a copy of Recording magazine from Oct 2001, and the
theme for this issue was mastering. They interviewed Doug Sax, and
when asked about what wire he used at the Mastering Lab, here's what
he said:

"We have done extensive listening to wire.


IDIOTS !


Are you saying that you DO believe in magic wire?
Doug Sax appears to have confirmed that ordinary wire is just fine.



oops! Snneezed and hit the send.

Guitar cords.

Check Louis out at http://www,gothamaudiousa.com

Regards,

Ty Ford

--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com
Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RZJ9MptZmU



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Default Doug Sax on wire


oops! Snneezed and hit the send.

Guitar cords.

Check Louis out at http://www,gothamaudiousa.com

Regards,

Ty Ford


Weirder yet, I don't see the pre-sneeze post....

Anyway. We heard differences when comparing the house belden with Gotham
GAC-3 and EMT 2220 a few years ago. Subtle, but it was there.

Not so much in another studio a few days later. We figured it had to do with
the existing wiring and console/preamp I/Os.

Lou Frisch atGotham audio has some NOS GAC-3 that has a different jacket
color. I got some because it's good cable, and would help me find mine during
those events where more than one person's cable is being used. Louis also has
it at a good price...while it lasts.

www.gothamaudious.com

Regards,

Ty Ford


--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com
Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RZJ9MptZmU

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Default Doug Sax on wire

"Scott Dorsey" wrote ...
Mark wrote:
I know that I can hear a difference between copper-clad-steel
RG-174 and similar copper cable. I am pretty sure that is due to
junction
issues.


so measure it and then you can tell us for sure what it was..


I can measure all KINDS of things... the question is which of the measured
effects is actually the one I am hearing.



well that's the fun part,

trying to correlate what we think we can hear to what we can measure.

that's how progress is made

what do you think you hear?


Mark


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Default Doug Sax on wire



Arny Krueger wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote
Scott Dorsey wrote:

Well, I have heard differences between wires,


That weren't speaker cables or high capacitance interconnects ?

but for the most part I am hard pressed to say any of them were important
or in any way improvements.


Details please.


I must admit that listening tests involving 50 feet runs of 24 gauge versus
12 gauge using some speakers with wild impedance curves were positive for
audible differences.


That would be expected of course.


OTOH, comparisons of parallel runs of 8 feet of 3/8" steel rebar versus some
$300 a pair Monster Cable were negative for audible differences.


I can imagine.

Graham


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Default Doug Sax on wire



Scott Dorsey wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote:

Well, I have heard differences between wires,


That weren't speaker cables or high capacitance interconnects ?


Well, in some cases they were very long microphone cables with ribbon
mike sources, where the cable reactance WAS becoming a problem.


How long were those mic cables ?


But in other cases I have heard weirdness that I cannot explain. I can
tell the difference between an 18ga solid core and an 18ga stranded
speaker cable. Makes no sense at all, but it was there.


Intruiging.


I can believe someone might hear a difference between a non-copper cable
like the silver cable, and I can believe it might be due to rectification
effects.


Well, it won't be the additional conductivity of the silver since that's just a
thin plating.


I know that I can hear a difference between copper-clad-steel
RG-174 and similar copper cable. I am pretty sure that is due to junction
issues.


Copper clad steel will have significantly higher resistance than steel of
course. Your contacts would have to be fairly dirty for rectification to kick
in, I'll venture.

Graham



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Default Doug Sax on wire



Richard Crowley wrote:

"Scott Dorsey" wrote ...
Mark wrote:
I know that I can hear a difference between copper-clad-steel
RG-174 and similar copper cable. I am pretty sure that is due to
junction issues.

so measure it and then you can tell us for sure what it was..


I can measure all KINDS of things... the question is which of the measured
effects is actually the one I am hearing.


OTOH, could you reproduce your audible effect with simple
non-inductive series resistance, etc?


There's a good (and simple) test.

Graham


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Paul Stamler Paul Stamler is offline
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Default Doug Sax on wire

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..

I can believe someone might hear a difference between a non-copper cable
like the silver cable, and I can believe it might be due to

rectification
effects. I know that I can hear a difference between copper-clad-steel
RG-174 and similar copper cable. I am pretty sure that is due to

junction
issues.


For people who don't carry a RG cable characteristics table around in

their
heads, RG 174 is micro coax. The center conductor is about 24 gauge. DCR
of pure copper 24 gauge is about 2.5 ohms per 100 feet. It makes pretty
crappy speaker wire, but tell that to Radio Shack!. ;-)

IME the DCR of copper-clad wire is about 4 times that of solid copper, so
now we're talking 10 ohms per 100 feet. IOW if you're driving a 110 ohm

load
with a low impedance source, there's about 1 dB of loss per 100 feet.

You'll
easily hear that in a close comparison.


Except that the only 110 ohm loads most of us drive are AES digital
connections, and you shouldn't hear a difference with a 1dB loss in a
digital signal unless the receives is so bad that it craps out without 100%
full amplitude.

More likely in the audio world a coax cable would be used into a 10k load,
and the loss would then be about .009dB. Even into a 600 ohm load the loss
would be 0.14dB -- and who uses unbalanced coax into 600 ohm loads?

Peace,
Paul


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Default Doug Sax on wire

"Eeyore" wrote in message
...

I know that I can hear a difference between copper-clad-steel
RG-174 and similar copper cable. I am pretty sure that is due to

junction
issues.


Copper clad steel will have significantly higher resistance than steel of
course. Your contacts would have to be fairly dirty for rectification to

kick
in, I'll venture.


A few decades ago somebody from one of the larger Japanese hi-fi
manufacturers, I think Kenwood, published a paper in JAES theorizing that
the proximity of ferromagnetic metal to conductors carrying audio signals
could add distortion; they included measurements which seemed to show
significant effects. IIRC, the effect was inverse-square proportional, but
it may have been inverse-to-the-fourth-power. It's been a long time.

Anyway, they did include measurements; the paper might be worth looking up.

Peace,
Paul


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Default Doug Sax on wire

hank alrich wrote:
Arny Krueger wrote:

wrote in message
oups.com...

On Nov 1, 4:14 pm, wrote:


Then the pure silver Kimber stuff is in another
league altogether.


Yup, just like Ponzi schemes are investments strategies
in another league altogether.


Yup, Williams is another promoter of esoteric ideas whose life would
be signficantly changed by reference to some of the hard facts of
life.


Having run his mod'd AKG C460's against the stock item, I call
bull**** on you. I'm pretty sure the guy's test bench can hold its
own against yours.


I can mod a C460 to sound way better than stock. And my test bench ain't
fancy.

geoff


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Default Doug Sax on wire

Arny Krueger wrote:

Preference is based on historical knowlege, expectations and the
immediate experience. Since only 1/3 of those things actually relate
directly to any listening test that any of us might do, all
listening tests are therefore highly suspect unless they somehow deal
with the other 2/3.


A bit like religon really.

geoff




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Default Doug Sax on wire

Ty Ford wrote:
oops! Snneezed and hit the send.

Guitar cords.

Check Louis out at http://www,gothamaudiousa.com

Regards,

Ty Ford


Weirder yet, I don't see the pre-sneeze post....

Anyway. We heard differences when comparing the house belden with
Gotham GAC-3 and EMT 2220 a few years ago. Subtle, but it was there.


Maybe you moved your head, furniture, or listening position a few inches,
or yawned. That should totally swamp any cable differences.

geoff


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Default Doug Sax on wire



Geoff wrote:

Ty Ford wrote:
oops! Snneezed and hit the send.

Guitar cords.

Check Louis out at http://www,gothamaudiousa.com


Weirder yet, I don't see the pre-sneeze post....

Anyway. We heard differences when comparing the house belden with
Gotham GAC-3 and EMT 2220 a few years ago. Subtle, but it was there.


Maybe you moved your head, furniture, or listening position a few inches,
or yawned. That should totally swamp any cable differences.


Or had a slight cold etc etc.

One's hearing is an utterly unreliable benchmark and readily enhanced with drugs
too. Things sound SO much nicer after some cannabis for example.

Graham

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Default Doug Sax on wire

Eeyore wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote:

Well, I have heard differences between wires,

That weren't speaker cables or high capacitance interconnects ?


Well, in some cases they were very long microphone cables with ribbon
mike sources, where the cable reactance WAS becoming a problem.


How long were those mic cables ?


Really only a few hundred feet. Not SUPER long. And if you can hear an
effect with a couple hundred feet, it's going to get worse when you have
a couple thousand foot run out to the truck.

But in other cases I have heard weirdness that I cannot explain. I can
tell the difference between an 18ga solid core and an 18ga stranded
speaker cable. Makes no sense at all, but it was there.


Intruiging.


I'm looking for a good explanation. At the time I could repeat it consistently
too.

I can believe someone might hear a difference between a non-copper cable
like the silver cable, and I can believe it might be due to rectification
effects.


Well, it won't be the additional conductivity of the silver since that's just a
thin plating.


No, some of the swanky audiophile cables are actually solid silver. Which is
a major pain in the neck, actually, because it's brittle.

Silver plated copper cable is very common, though, for high voltage work.
It doesn't develop tin whiskers. I often use it for tube amplifier hookup
wire, mostly because I got a bunch of it cheaply once. I doubt it sounds
any different.

I know that I can hear a difference between copper-clad-steel
RG-174 and similar copper cable. I am pretty sure that is due to junction
issues.


Copper clad steel will have significantly higher resistance than steel of
course. Your contacts would have to be fairly dirty for rectification to kick
in, I'll venture.


Maybe, but you have that steel-copper junction there in the middle of
everything. I'm thinking of that being an issue, rather than a parasitic
copper oxide rectifier.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Default Doug Sax on wire

Mark wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote ...
I know that I can hear a difference between copper-clad-steel
RG-174 and similar copper cable. I am pretty sure that is due to
junction
issues.


what do you think you hear?


Treble harshness. That can be caused by anything from high order distortion
products to a change in frequency response to maybe even a small change in
level.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Ivan Katz Ivan Katz is offline
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Default Doug Sax on wire

On Sat, 03 Nov 2007 11:37:12 +1300, Geoff wrote:

Ty Ford wrote:
oops! Snneezed and hit the send.

Guitar cords.

Check Louis out at http://www,gothamaudiousa.com

Regards,

Ty Ford


Weirder yet, I don't see the pre-sneeze post....

Anyway. We heard differences when comparing the house belden with
Gotham GAC-3 and EMT 2220 a few years ago. Subtle, but it was there.


Maybe you moved your head, furniture, or listening position a few
inches, or yawned. That should totally swamp any cable differences.

geoff


Pretty much......

I remember back in the 80s when CD players were brand new, I went to a
clinic given at Harvey by Sony. I dragged my Magnavox, yes Magnavox
because it had great converters, to the clinic and had the Sony people
connect it to their test equipment and give me a print out.
The unit did very well and they were a wee bit surprised so I got invited
to A--B it with their top of the line ES player, which BTW cost about 10
times what I paid for the Magnavox....

They did have a comparator and the tests were double blind.

Nothing was rigged as far as I could tell, unlike a Bose dog and pony
show I went to...don't ask.....

We sat there sipping some nice wine and enjoying the music but none of us
could hear any difference between the $300 player and the $2500 player.
Maybe it was us?
Maybe it was the wine?
Who knows!

That was until a CD with tubuler bells was played.
Yep, the Sony sounded clearer and everyone could hear the difference.
We all laughed though because WTF?
How many people play solo tubular bell CDs and even still, the difference
was so minor you had to really concentrate to hear it.
Still, there WAS a difference....

Just some words.....

Like Scott said, maybe there is a difference but is it really *better*?
What is *better* anyhow?
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