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  #41   Report Post  
Arny Krueger
 
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Joe Sensor wrote:
Agent 86 wrote:

Skin effect isn't an issue.

But I wouldn't consider 4 strands to be a *real* stranded

cable. When
you've only got 4 strands bundled together, you've got a

pretty high
percentage of air to copper. And air's not a particularly

good
conductor.


Pretty high percentage of air to copper? What does this

mean?

It probably means we've got someone who seems to be confused
with how wire is specified. Wire is specified in terms of
actual area of conductor. Any air between the individual
conductors in a stranded bundle doesn't count.

This means that a standed wire bundle might be a little
larger in diameter than the corresponding solid wire.

And there would be nothing wrong with 1 strand!


Agreed.

It's common mistake to believe that stranding wire does
something about skin effect. It doesn't. Skin effect is a
magnetic effect. As long as there is magnetic coupling
between the strands, the skin effect is about the same. That
means that stranding the wire does nothing to affect skin
effect, and neither does insulating the strands from each
other.

A true low skin effect wire deals with the magnetic effects
by either making the conductor in the shape of a tube, or
winding the strands of stranded wire around an non-magnetic
core. Plastic has been used for the core material of
low-skin-effect wire. However, increasing the diameter of
the conductor usually increases the inductance of the wire
unless the wire is coax. Inductance of speaker cables can be
a larger source of losses than skin effect.

The good news is that skin effect just isn't a problem at
regular audio frequencies. It's not going to diminish the
sheen of cymbals, etc. Unless the speakers have very low
impedance, inductance isn't much of a problem, either.


  #42   Report Post  
Eiron
 
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Agent 86 wrote:

some 14 AWG zip cord (or speaker cable). If you look close, you'll notice
that it's made up of lots (and lots) of teeney-tiny strands of wire that
fit really close together so there's not much air space between them. The
air's not particularly important, but the implication is that if you use
enough strands so they fit together tightly, you have *almost* as much
metal in a stranded wire as in a solid wire of the same gauge.


This must be one of those schoolboy mathematics exercises:
Calculate the percentage of copper in a cable of n strands.

I make it 100% for 1 strand, 88% for 2 strands, 87% for 3 strands,
83% for 4 strands and 91% for many strands.
Of course my geometry isn't what it was forty years ago.

If you want 100% copper in your multi-strand wire you must fill the gaps
with even smaller strands and sell it for $thousands per metre.

--
Eiron.
  #43   Report Post  
Tomi Holger Engdahl
 
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Joseph Oberlander writes:

glw82664 wrote:

I'm far from an audiophile and need help with some wiring. I have an
old pioneer receiver that has an A/B switch. I use B for satellite
speakers on my deck. Until recently, they worked fine having run about
30 feet of wire from where the receiver sits to the speakers.
Yesterday, I moved the receiver to a room farther away and had to
splice in about an extra 20 feet of wire. There are actually three
splices in each wire now due to obstacles and such. Now, when I turn
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops transmiting
the signal and starts clicking.


Eek. Three splices and you expect it to work properly?


I would expect three splices to work properly when splices
are properly done. Soldering, reliable crimp type connections,
screw terminals and good quality connectors are proven ways
to splice pices of cables together.

If you have mande bad splices, then things can break there.

Every time you splice a wire you loose 2-4db per splice.


Where did you get those numbers?
They do not hold true.
A properly done wire splices make very little loss.
It is avery small fraction of ohms in resistance,
typically in milliohms or test of milliohms range.
And the volume loss is definatly below fraction of decibel.
The effect of properly made splice is less than the effect
of few meters of speaker cable!

If the splice had 2-4 dB of loss, it would be a really bad
splice and heat up very much in the use, because it would
in this case loose around half of the power amplifier is
sending out! Your claim is just proven NOT to be true!

Three, plus
the connectors on the end... That's going to add up to a noticeable
load increase on the receiver.


Those will not add up any noticeable load on the receiver!

Splicing bad.


Spilcing is bad for system reliabity. More splices you have
in your system, the more propable is that some day one of them fails.
The other effects of properly done splices on audio speaker wires
are neglectable!

I presume the extra wire I added is
the problem. The wire I have been using, with success in other parts
of the house, is using a load of telephone line that I came in to for
free. It has eight wires in each run so I split 4 positive and 4
negative. It adds up to roughly 14 gauge. I have checked, re-checked,
and re-checked again all the connections and they are correct so I
presume the runs are simply too long for the wire I am using.


I'd re-run it with two pieces of 12 gauge wire. Those 4 pieces of
telephone wire aren't 14 gauge, btw. The look like it, but in terms
of capacity, they are closer to 20 gauge at best. This is a common
problem people make, in fact, with cat-5 and simmilar wires. It takes
a lot of them together to equal what one (by then, with the insulation
factored in) decent wire will do.


This is true.

Not that it isn't possible, but
most people find it cumbersome compared to using plain 12 or 14 gauge
stranded electrical wire.

Another option might be to get some Romex and run it under the house.
Another option might be to go with self-powered speakers. Then you'd
just be sending a preamp signal which should be no problem.

(Or just get a small amp for the second room - the best solution of
all, IMO)


--
Tomi Engdahl (http://www.iki.fi/then/)
Take a look at my electronics web links and documents at
http://www.epanorama.net/
  #45   Report Post  
Joseph Oberlander
 
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Arny Krueger wrote:

Joseph Oberlander wrote:


I'd re-run it with two pieces of 12 gauge wire.



Good advice.


Those 4 pieces of telephone wire aren't 14 gauge, btw.


The look like it, but in terms

of capacity, they are closer to 20 gauge at best.



I believe that doubling the amount of copper per foot drops
you 3 wire gauges. The basic wire is 24 gauge so paralleling
two strands gets you 21 gauge, paralleling 4 gets you 18
gauge, and if you went for broke, paralleing all 8 gets you
to 15 gauge.


Which brings up my second point in that sentance. 4 or 8
little wires with insulation added is larger than most
electrical wire that you are trying to emulate.



  #46   Report Post  
William Sommerwerck
 
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Eek. Three splices and you expect it to work properly? Every
time you splice a wire you loose 2-4db per splice. Three, plus
the connectors on the end... That's going to add up to a noticeable
load increase on the receiver. Splicing bad.


Utter baloney. 2 to 4 dB per splice? You lose nothing. The resistance of a
proper solder joint is nearly zero. Where do you get this "information"?

This is typical of UseNet groups. Someone asks a question, no one gives the
right answer, and the discussion wanders off in all sorts of directions.

Okay. You want the "right" answer to the original question? In all
likelihood, at least one of the splices is shorted. The receiver is trying
to work into at least a partial short, which is why the protective relays
are activating.


  #47   Report Post  
Chas Gill
 
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"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
...
Eek. Three splices and you expect it to work properly? Every
time you splice a wire you loose 2-4db per splice. Three, plus
the connectors on the end... That's going to add up to a noticeable
load increase on the receiver. Splicing bad.


Utter baloney. 2 to 4 dB per splice? You lose nothing. The resistance of a
proper solder joint is nearly zero. Where do you get this "information"?

This is typical of UseNet groups. Someone asks a question, no one gives
the
right answer, and the discussion wanders off in all sorts of directions.

Okay. You want the "right" answer to the original question? In all
likelihood, at least one of the splices is shorted. The receiver is trying
to work into at least a partial short, which is why the protective relays
are activating.


An afterthought - did not the OP say he was using phone cable - and
combining 3 pairs into one to reduce resistance? Pound to a penny he's
crossed a pair in a splice somewhere and created a short. My advice would
be to buzz the cables through to check this out.

Chas


  #48   Report Post  
Chas Gill
 
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"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
...
Eek. Three splices and you expect it to work properly? Every
time you splice a wire you loose 2-4db per splice. Three, plus
the connectors on the end... That's going to add up to a noticeable
load increase on the receiver. Splicing bad.


Utter baloney. 2 to 4 dB per splice? You lose nothing. The resistance of a
proper solder joint is nearly zero. Where do you get this "information"?

This is typical of UseNet groups. Someone asks a question, no one gives
the
right answer, and the discussion wanders off in all sorts of directions.

Okay. You want the "right" answer to the original question? In all
likelihood, at least one of the splices is shorted. The receiver is trying
to work into at least a partial short, which is why the protective relays
are activating.


I tend to agree, without being on the spot.

Chas


  #50   Report Post  
Ty Ford
 
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On Mon, 6 Jun 2005 22:19:27 -0400, Agent 86 wrote
(in article ):

I use automotive jumper cables from Pep Boys. They come in pairs with really
heavy duty clamps.

I had to tack weld them to my monitor terminals, but that was sort of fun.

Regards,

Ty Ford





-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com



  #51   Report Post  
Joe Sensor
 
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Ty Ford wrote:
On Mon, 6 Jun 2005 22:19:27 -0400, Agent 86 wrote
(in article ):

I use automotive jumper cables from Pep Boys. They come in pairs with really
heavy duty clamps.

I had to tack weld them to my monitor terminals, but that was sort of fun.


But are you losing 3 db where through the weld.

A bit of overkill if you ask me. But I bet you are getting as good or
even better results over those $8000 speaker cables.
  #52   Report Post  
Arny Krueger
 
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Ty Ford wrote:
On Mon, 6 Jun 2005 22:19:27 -0400, Agent 86 wrote
(in article ):

I use automotive jumper cables from Pep Boys. They come in

pairs with
really heavy duty clamps.


I had to tack weld them to my monitor terminals, but that

was sort of
fun.


I was thinking that the speaker manufacturers have misssed
an opportunity - add cables, add the margin to the speaker
price, and profit. All sorts of opportunity for hype.
Obviously tack-welding the speaker cables to the drivers or
crossover terminals avoids possibility for connectors to
mess up the sound. ;-)

BTW ElectroVoice seems to have picked up on this. My new
ZX5-60PI monitors came with built in speaker cables - about
6 feet long. There's even a notch for holding them molded
into the enclosure. ;-)


  #53   Report Post  
Lorin David Schultz
 
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"William Sommerwerck" wrote:

The receiver is trying to work into at least a partial short



What's a "partial short?" Is that like a partial virgin?

--
"It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!"
- Lorin David Schultz
in the control room
making even bad news sound good

(Remove spamblock to reply)


  #54   Report Post  
John O
 
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The receiver is trying to work into at least a partial short


What's a "partial short?" Is that like a partial virgin?


Almost zero ohms, but not quite. Like being in, but not
breaking....nevermind.

-John O


  #55   Report Post  
Arny Krueger
 
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Lorin David Schultz wrote:
"William Sommerwerck" wrote:

The receiver is trying to work into at least a partial

short


What's a "partial short?" Is that like a partial virgin?


....that, or partially pregnant. ;-)




  #56   Report Post  
Richard Crowley
 
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"Eiron" wrote ...
Agent 86 wrote:

some 14 AWG zip cord (or speaker cable). If you look close, you'll

notice
that it's made up of lots (and lots) of teeney-tiny strands of wire that
fit really close together so there's not much air space between them.

The
air's not particularly important, but the implication is that if you use
enough strands so they fit together tightly, you have *almost* as much
metal in a stranded wire as in a solid wire of the same gauge.


This must be one of those schoolboy mathematics exercises:
Calculate the percentage of copper in a cable of n strands.

I make it 100% for 1 strand, 88% for 2 strands, 87% for 3 strands,
83% for 4 strands and 91% for many strands.
Of course my geometry isn't what it was forty years ago.


Fortunetely, we don't have to rely on high-school geometry.
Wire (both solid and stranded) is rated in terms of its cross-
sectional area of copper (or whatever metal). In fact the
larger sizes of wire are named after their cross-sectional
areas For example see this chart...
http://www.aseapower.com/technotes/tn_004.htm

Stranded wire is rated by the combined cross-sectional area
of all the strands added together. The airspace between them
is not part of the calculation.


  #57   Report Post  
William Sommerwerck
 
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"William Sommerwerck" wrote:

The receiver is trying to work into at least a partial short


What's a "partial short?" Is that like a partial virgin?


As opposed to a "dead short."

A partial short is one whose resistance is rather lower than what the source
is comfortable with. But it's not "zero." That's a dead short.


  #58   Report Post  
Ty Ford
 
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On Tue, 7 Jun 2005 10:34:52 -0400, Joe Sensor wrote
(in article ):

Ty Ford wrote:
On Mon, 6 Jun 2005 22:19:27 -0400, Agent 86 wrote
(in article ):

I use automotive jumper cables from Pep Boys. They come in pairs with
really
heavy duty clamps.

I had to tack weld them to my monitor terminals, but that was sort of fun.


But are you losing 3 db where through the weld.

A bit of overkill if you ask me. But I bet you are getting as good or
even better results over those $8000 speaker cables.


They made a bit of a bump under the rug, but once we put in the raised floor
and cut channels for the cables, everything was fine.

Ty

-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com

  #59   Report Post  
Chris Hornbeck
 
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On Tue, 7 Jun 2005 20:35:01 -0400, Ty Ford
wrote:

They made a bit of a bump under the rug, but once we put in the raised floor
and cut channels for the cables, everything was fine.


Arf! Well I *really* have made jumper cables from some paralleled
ancient greenish Monster cables that somebody gave me. Very limp.
Also very liquid, and boisterous. Insouciant, maybe.

My old Honda has a Monster cable wire from the battery neg to
block. Still idles a little off pitch; dunno...

Chris Hornbeck
"What, never?"
"No, never."
"What, never?"
"Well, hardly ever."
"HMS Pinafore"
  #60   Report Post  
Glenn Dowdy
 
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"Chris Hornbeck" wrote in message
...


My old Honda has a Monster cable wire from the battery neg to
block. Still idles a little off pitch; dunno...

It's unidirectional; you've got it running the wrong way.

Glenn D.




  #61   Report Post  
Chris Hornbeck
 
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On Tue, 7 Jun 2005 21:36:32 -0600, "Glenn Dowdy"
wrote:

My old Honda has a Monster cable wire from the battery neg to
block. Still idles a little off pitch; dunno...

It's unidirectional; you've got it running the wrong way.


Doh! That's! why I've been wearing out all these rear-view
mirrors. Thanks,

Chris Hornbeck
"What, never?"
"No, never."
"What, never?"
"Well, hardly ever."
"HMS Pinafore"
  #62   Report Post  
Steve Urbach
 
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On Tue, 07 Jun 2005 15:19:59 GMT, "Lorin David Schultz"
wrote:

What's a "partial short?" Is that like a partial virgin?

A single strand "cat wisker" bridged to the other wire in the pair.

, _
, | \ MKA: Steve Urbach
, | )erek No JUNK in my email please
, ____|_/ragonsclaw
, / / / Running United Devices "Cure For Cancer" Project 24/7 Have you helped?
http://www.grid.org
  #63   Report Post  
AZ Nomad
 
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On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 05:05:29 GMT, Steve Urbach wrote:


On Tue, 07 Jun 2005 15:19:59 GMT, "Lorin David Schultz"
wrote:


What's a "partial short?" Is that like a partial virgin?

A single strand "cat wisker" bridged to the other wire in the pair.


Interesting concept. I've been working with audio for 35 years and never seen
a single example of a "cat wisker" crossing through the insulation. Is this
something that's really been a problem for you?
  #64   Report Post  
ric
 
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AZ Nomad wrote:

What's a "partial short?" Is that like a partial virgin?

A single strand "cat wisker" bridged to the other wire in the pair.


Interesting concept. I've been working with audio for 35 years and never seen
a single example of a "cat wisker" crossing through the insulation. Is this
something that's really been a problem for you?


Read the thread as to what the OP was doing.
  #65   Report Post  
Richard Crowley
 
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"AZ Nomad" wrote ...
Interesting concept. I've been working with audio for
35 years and never seen a single example of a "cat wisker"
crossing through the insulation. Is this something that's
really been a problem for you?


It is always a concern when terminating stranded wire,
especially in close quarters like inside connector shells.
And especially with really fine wire where the individual
strands are nearly invisible.


  #66   Report Post  
jakdedert
 
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William Sommerwerck wrote:
"William Sommerwerck" wrote:


The receiver is trying to work into at least a partial short


What's a "partial short?" Is that like a partial virgin?


As opposed to a "dead short."

Opposed to a 'dead short'...wouldn't that be a 'live short'? IOW, not so
shorted as to completely kill whatever it was connected to, but....

Actually, that started out as a tongue in cheek answer, but there's actually
some logic to it.

A partial short is one whose resistance is rather lower than what the
source is comfortable with. But it's not "zero." That's a dead short.


Also, could be a short which only occurs when the voltage gets high enough
to overcome the dielectric quality of whatever is keeping the conductors
apart; be it air, paper, dirt or whatever...also could be a short which only
shows up when the insulator becomes moist, as in corrosion or paper or
dirt....

jak



  #67   Report Post  
Lorin David Schultz
 
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"Lorin David Schultz" wrote:

What's a "partial short?" Is that like a partial virgin?



"Steve Urbach" wrote:

A single strand "cat wisker" bridged to the other wire in the pair.




That's a short, period. It's not "partial." You don't have to have the
entire bundle making contact to have a short.

William suggested that his interpretation of the difference between a
"partial" short and a "dead" short is resistance -- a partial short has
some, a dead short doesn't. So what's the threshold for the difference
between partial and dead? I guess it would depend on the circuit it's
in. Is any case of insufficient load resistance a "partial short?"

--
"It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!"
- Lorin David Schultz
in the control room
making even bad news sound good

(Remove spamblock to reply)


  #68   Report Post  
ric
 
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Richard Crowley wrote:

Interesting concept. I've been working with audio for
35 years and never seen a single example of a "cat wisker"
crossing through the insulation. Is this something that's
really been a problem for you?


It is always a concern when terminating stranded wire,
especially in close quarters like inside connector shells.
And especially with really fine wire where the individual
strands are nearly invisible.


Is quite a problem when terminating stranded wire at a PCB hole,
especially if the hole is a tad too small.
  #69   Report Post  
Arny Krueger
 
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"mc" wrote in message
...
My understanding is exactly the opposite -- that

separate strands (of the
correct total cross sectional area) are better than a

single wire.
That's
because of "skin effect" (tendency of high frequencies

to be carried at
the
periphery of the wire, although that is probably

negligible at audio
frequencies) and also because of better heat

dissipation.

Can someone elucidate?


Skin effect is really really important if you have any

real program
content
you care about in the upper radio end of the spectrum


Like I said, "negligible at audio frequencies"...

I mentioned it because it's not a reason to *avoid* using

multiple strands.

Skin effect is also not a reason to choose multiple strands.


  #70   Report Post  
Chris Hornbeck
 
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On Wed, 8 Jun 2005 21:33:56 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

Skin effect is also not a reason to choose multiple strands.


Yeah, regular plain old audio wire is *not* Litz wire. There
was a theory, IIRC, that the various strands of multi-strand
wire might have enough voltage differences along their
entire summed length that the diode-y-ish junctions might
become significant.

Nowadays, I'd just have to say, well yeah, maybe so, and
move on. Some, actually *most*, stuff that we know about is
below our perceptual noise floor.

And as I get older, more of the marginal stuff begins to
fall below my interest floor.

Leaving microphones, placement, musicians, in reverse order.

Thanks, as always,

Chris Hornbeck
"Been out haunting the neighborhood,
And everybody can see I'm no good.
When I'm walking out between parked cars,
With my head full of stars." -Elliott Smith


  #71   Report Post  
Richard Crowley
 
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Last time I asked about "skin effect" at audio frequencies, I was talking
to an RF engineer at Cascade Microtech where they KNOW what
skin effect is. He was drinking from a can of Pepsi at the time and he
laughed to hard that soda came out of his nose.


  #72   Report Post  
Arny Krueger
 
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"Chris Hornbeck" wrote in
message ...
On Wed, 8 Jun 2005 21:33:56 -0400, "Arny Krueger"


wrote:

Skin effect is also not a reason to choose multiple

strands.

Yeah, regular plain old audio wire is *not* Litz wire.


And, when skin effect actually is an issue, Litz wire is not
commonly used.

There was a theory, IIRC, that the various strands of

multi-strand
wire might have enough voltage differences along their
entire summed length that the diode-y-ish junctions might
become significant.


The current densities required for that to *actually* happen
would probably melt the wire.

Nowadays, I'd just have to say, well yeah, maybe so, and
move on. Some, actually *most*, stuff that we know about

is
below our perceptual noise floor.


Or, is just plain bad physics or electrical engineering.

And as I get older, more of the marginal stuff begins to
fall below my interest floor.


Audio systems that fail to satisfy generally fail in terms
of the basics.


Leaving microphones, placement, musicians, in reverse

order.

Something like it. It is amazing how relatively easy it is
to get nice-sounding recordings with good musicians in a
good room, as compared to working with mediocre or poor
musicians in a mediocre or poor room.


  #73   Report Post  
Arny Krueger
 
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"Richard Crowley" wrote in
message ...

Last time I asked about "skin effect" at audio

frequencies, I was talking
to an RF engineer at Cascade Microtech where they KNOW

what
skin effect is. He was drinking from a can of Pepsi at the

time and he
laughed to hard that soda came out of his nose.


Which reminds me of that saying about amateur soldiers
studying tactics, while professionals study logistics.

Transmission lines that carefully consider skin effect are
as close as the nearst cable system trunk line. Of course
its coax. The center conductor is usually a relatively
large-diameter solid sliver-plated aluminum wire.

No tiny strands, no separate insulation, none of that crap.
The signal is in the silver plating on the large-diameter
aluminum carrier structure.



  #74   Report Post  
Howard Ferstler
 
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Trevor Wilson wrote:

"Howard Ferstler" wrote in message
...
glw82664 wrote:

You are possibly clipping the signal as the receiver tries
to supply enough voltage to get the amplifier gain you
require.


**Nonsense. Utter, banal nonsense. Read what the poster typed. He said:
---
"There are actually three
splices in each wire now due to obstacles and such. Now, when I turn
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops transmiting
the signal and starts clicking."
---

What is happening is now obvious. The key words a "moderate" and
"splices".


Generally, if there is a direct short between the leads the
ENTIRE signal will pass through that short, even at the very
lowest levels. Consequently, he would have problems at all
levels, even low ones, and the speakers would remain silent,
period.

But you have a point. If he were cranking things all the way
up he might clip things, but a moderate turn should not clip
the amp. My guess is that he has some weird shorts possibly
between channels.

It is also possible that the configuration of the
wire is causing some capacitive artifacts.


**Possible, but extremely unlikely.


Check all possibilities, I say.

A splice may also
be shorting together, although if that were happening you
would not be getting sound even at low levels, let alone at
moderate levels.


**Wrong! The protection systems in many amps rely on the current flow
through the output devices. At low levels, little current will flow and the
amp will not shut down.


Baloney. While the amp might not shut down, he certainly
would not be getting sound from his speakers, even at low
levels. A short would shunt virtually all the juice through
the shorted sections, and the speakers would make no sound
at all, because no current would be flowing through them.

I suggest going for heavier wire, without all of those
potentially problem causing splices. Places like Home Depot
and Lowe's have 12 AWG low-voltage wire for use with outdoor
lighting systems that is ideal for making long cable runs to
speakers located as yours are, especially outdoors. The wire
is fairly cheap and is available in 100 and 50 foot lengths.


**On that we agree. CONTIGUOUS lengths of cable will probably solve the
problem.


Yep.

Howard Ferstler
  #75   Report Post  
Trevor Wilson
 
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"Howard Ferstler" wrote in message
...
Trevor Wilson wrote:

"Howard Ferstler" wrote in message
...
glw82664 wrote:

You are possibly clipping the signal as the receiver tries
to supply enough voltage to get the amplifier gain you
require.


**Nonsense. Utter, banal nonsense. Read what the poster typed. He said:
---
"There are actually three
splices in each wire now due to obstacles and such. Now, when I turn
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops transmiting
the signal and starts clicking."
---

What is happening is now obvious. The key words a "moderate" and
"splices".


Generally, if there is a direct short between the leads the
ENTIRE signal will pass through that short, even at the very
lowest levels. Consequently, he would have problems at all
levels, even low ones, and the speakers would remain silent,
period.


**Wrong! You have neglected to allow for cable resistance. ALL wire has some
resistance. Long wires have more resistance.


But you have a point. If he were cranking things all the way
up he might clip things, but a moderate turn should not clip
the amp. My guess is that he has some weird shorts possibly
between channels.


**That is what I and other posters have suggested.


It is also possible that the configuration of the
wire is causing some capacitive artifacts.


**Possible, but extremely unlikely.


Check all possibilities, I say.


**And how is the average user going to check capacitance?


A splice may also
be shorting together, although if that were happening you
would not be getting sound even at low levels, let alone at
moderate levels.


**Wrong! The protection systems in many amps rely on the current flow
through the output devices. At low levels, little current will flow and
the
amp will not shut down.


Baloney.


**After you spend several years studying electronics and after you spend
most of your lifetime servicing domestic audio equipment, you will be
qualified to argue with me. At this point you are speaking from a position
of extreme ignorance. What I wrote is 100% on the money. I have seen
it/analysed it/measured it many times.


While the amp might not shut down, he certainly
would not be getting sound from his speakers, even at low
levels.


**That would depend on the type of short. A short on one channel only, would
allow the other channel/s to work.

A short would shunt virtually all the juice through
the shorted sections, and the speakers would make no sound
at all, because no current would be flowing through them.


**Yep. Unless it was a high resistnace short. Say 0.5 Ohms. And yes, I've
seen that happen many times.



I suggest going for heavier wire, without all of those
potentially problem causing splices. Places like Home Depot
and Lowe's have 12 AWG low-voltage wire for use with outdoor
lighting systems that is ideal for making long cable runs to
speakers located as yours are, especially outdoors. The wire
is fairly cheap and is available in 100 and 50 foot lengths.


**On that we agree. CONTIGUOUS lengths of cable will probably solve the
problem.


Yep.



--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au




  #76   Report Post  
dizzy
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Tue, 07 Jun 2005 00:17:48 GMT, SSJVCmag
wrote:

Skin effect is really really important if you have any real program content
you care about in the upper radio end of the spectrum


Idiot.

  #77   Report Post  
dizzy
 
Posts: n/a
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On 6 Jun 2005 13:18:57 -0700, "cirejcon" wrote:

This doesn't sound right. I suspect you're comparing diameters
rather than area. Depending on the speaker power, even four
phone wires might be marginal. Check the current ratings
he
http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm
Add the current ratings of the wire you're using, and you'll see
it's nowhere near 14 gauge.


Right. A jump in 3 gauge sizes is approximately a doubling (a
halving) of the wire cross-sectional area, so four 20-gauge wires is
the same as one 14-gauge wire. However, the phone-wire that the OP is
using is probably 26 gauge, so he'd need sixteen in parallel to equal
a 14 gauge.

  #78   Report Post  
dizzy
 
Posts: n/a
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On 6 Jun 2005 05:28:50 -0700, "glw82664" wrote:

Now, when I turn
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops transmiting
the signal and starts clicking. I presume the extra wire I added is
the problem.


You must have a short or an "almost short" that arcs-over at higher
voltages. Your receiver will never complain about having too much
resistance to drive, only too little. The only drawback to having
excessive resistance in the cable is inefficiency (wasting power in
the wire).

  #79   Report Post  
Richard Crowley
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"dizzy" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 07 Jun 2005 00:17:48 GMT, SSJVCmag
wrote:

Skin effect is really really important if you have any real program
content
you care about in the upper radio end of the spectrum


Idiot.


Thank you for your thoughtful and informative contribution to
the discussion.

Plonk.

  #80   Report Post  
Richard Crowley
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"dizzy" wrote in message
...
On 6 Jun 2005 05:28:50 -0700, "glw82664" wrote:

Now, when I turn
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops transmiting
the signal and starts clicking. I presume the extra wire I added is
the problem.


You must have a short or an "almost short" that arcs-over at higher
voltages.


Where do you live that typical speaker voltages can "arc-over"
in an atmosphere that supports human life?

If you are posting from an alternative universe, my apologies.
We have had a rash of cross-postings from other worlds lately.

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