I'm far from an audiophile and need help with some wiring. I have an
old pioneer receiver that has an A/B switch. I use B for satellite
speakers on my deck. Until recently, they worked fine having run about
30 feet of wire from where the receiver sits to the speakers.
Yesterday, I moved the receiver to a room farther away and had to
splice in about an extra 20 feet of wire. There are actually three
splices in each wire now due to obstacles and such. Now, when I turn
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops transmiting
the signal and starts clicking. I presume the extra wire I added is
the problem. The wire I have been using, with success in other parts
of the house, is using a load of telephone line that I came in to for
free. It has eight wires in each run so I split 4 positive and 4
negative. It adds up to roughly 14 gauge. I have checked, re-checked,
and re-checked again all the connections and they are correct so I
presume the runs are simply too long for the wire I am using. Maybe
upping to 12 gauge will help, but before spending the money I'm just
looking for ideas here. Thanks in advance.

Hi,
generally cable splicing causes a lot of problems, as I daily experience.To
troubleshoot the connection between the receiver, you have to be certain
that it's a whole length of speaker cable, not definitely $5/ft. oxygen free
cable.Probably in radio shack you can find some cheap speaker cable (30 cent
a meter would do).If it were mains wiring I would suggest you hired an
electrician, but here the worse could be the receiver relays clicking off
load.

--
Tzortzakakis Dimitrios
major in electrical engineering, freelance electrician
FH von Iraklion-Kreta, freiberuflicher Elektriker
dimtzort AT otenet DOT gr
? "glw82664" ?????? ??? ??????
ups.com...
I'm far from an audiophile and need help with some wiring. I have an
old pioneer receiver that has an A/B switch. I use B for satellite
speakers on my deck. Until recently, they worked fine having run about
30 feet of wire from where the receiver sits to the speakers.
Yesterday, I moved the receiver to a room farther away and had to
splice in about an extra 20 feet of wire. There are actually three
splices in each wire now due to obstacles and such. Now, when I turn
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops transmiting
the signal and starts clicking. I presume the extra wire I added is
the problem. The wire I have been using, with success in other parts
of the house, is using a load of telephone line that I came in to for
free. It has eight wires in each run so I split 4 positive and 4
negative. It adds up to roughly 14 gauge. I have checked, re-checked,
and re-checked again all the connections and they are correct so I
presume the runs are simply too long for the wire I am using. Maybe
upping to 12 gauge will help, but before spending the money I'm just
looking for ideas here. Thanks in advance.

On Mon, 06 Jun 2005 05:28:50 -0700, glw82664 wrote:

I'm far from an audiophile and need help with some wiring. I have an old
pioneer receiver that has an A/B switch. I use B for satellite speakers
on my deck. Until recently, they worked fine having run about 30 feet of
wire from where the receiver sits to the speakers. Yesterday, I moved the
receiver to a room farther away and had to splice in about an extra 20
feet of wire. There are actually three splices in each wire now due to
obstacles and such. Now, when I turn up the volume to even a moderate
level the receiver stops transmiting the signal and starts clicking. I
presume the extra wire I added is the problem. The wire I have been
using, with success in other parts of the house, is using a load of
telephone line that I came in to for free. It has eight wires in each run
so I split 4 positive and 4 negative. It adds up to roughly 14 gauge. I
have checked, re-checked, and re-checked again all the connections and
they are correct so I presume the runs are simply too long for the wire I
am using. Maybe upping to 12 gauge will help, but before spending the
money I'm just looking for ideas here. Thanks in advance.

I'd look for bad splices first. Beyond that, telephone wire
really isn't suitable for speaker connections. Each of your 4 wires is
(approximately) 22-24 AWG. When you bundle them together, they may be
close to 14 AWG in overall size, but they won't have the current carrying
capacity of a real 14 AWG wire made if many very tiny strands.

14 AWG should be fine for a 30' run with 8 ohm speakers. 12 AWG would be
better. Lamp cord is fine. Don't waste money on expensive crap like
Monster cable. BUT, if you run wires inside walls or in conduit, make sure
you use wire that is properly rated for that use.

There's a chart showing cable loss over distance at various wire gauge &
speaker impedance at the Yorkville site. Look about 1/3 of the way down
this page:
http://www.yorkville.com/default.asp?p1=6&p2=17&p_id=26

Check it with an ohmmeter. You may not actually have a good connection.

I'd look for bad splices first. Beyond that, telephone wire
really isn't suitable for speaker connections. Each of your 4 wires is
(approximately) 22-24 AWG. When you bundle them together, they may be
close to 14 AWG in overall size, but they won't have the current carrying
capacity of a real 14 AWG wire made if many very tiny strands.

My understanding is exactly the opposite -- that separate strands (of the
correct total cross sectional area) are better than a single wire. That's
because of "skin effect" (tendency of high frequencies to be carried at the
periphery of the wire, although that is probably negligible at audio
frequencies) and also because of better heat dissipation.

Can someone elucidate?

glw82664 wrote:

I'm far from an audiophile and need help with some wiring. I have an
old pioneer receiver that has an A/B switch. I use B for satellite
speakers on my deck. Until recently, they worked fine having run about
30 feet of wire from where the receiver sits to the speakers.
Yesterday, I moved the receiver to a room farther away and had to
splice in about an extra 20 feet of wire. There are actually three
splices in each wire now due to obstacles and such. Now, when I turn
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops transmiting
the signal and starts clicking.

Eek. Three splices and you expect it to work properly? Every
time you splice a wire you loose 2-4db per splice. Three, plus
the connectors on the end... That's going to add up to a noticeable
load increase on the receiver. Splicing bad.

I presume the extra wire I added is
the problem. The wire I have been using, with success in other parts
of the house, is using a load of telephone line that I came in to for
free. It has eight wires in each run so I split 4 positive and 4
negative. It adds up to roughly 14 gauge. I have checked, re-checked,
and re-checked again all the connections and they are correct so I
presume the runs are simply too long for the wire I am using.

I'd re-run it with two pieces of 12 gauge wire. Those 4 pieces of
telephone wire aren't 14 gauge, btw. The look like it, but in terms
of capacity, they are closer to 20 gauge at best. This is a common
problem people make, in fact, with cat-5 and simmilar wires. It takes
a lot of them together to equal what one (by then, with the insulation
factored in) decent wire will do. Not that it isn't possible, but
most people find it cumbersome compared to using plain 12 or 14 gauge
stranded electrical wire.

Another option might be to get some Romex and run it under the house.
Another option might be to go with self-powered speakers. Then you'd
just be sending a preamp signal which should be no problem.

(Or just get a small amp for the second room - the best solution of
all, IMO)

"glw82664" wrote:
I'm far from an audiophile and need help with some wiring. I have an
old pioneer receiver that has an A/B switch. I use B for satellite
speakers on my deck. Until recently, they worked fine having run
about 30 feet of wire from where the receiver sits to the speakers.
Yesterday, I moved the receiver to a room farther away and had to
splice in about an extra 20 feet of wire. There are actually three
splices in each wire now due to obstacles and such. Now, when I turn
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops transmiting
the signal and starts clicking. I presume the extra wire I added is
the problem. The wire I have been using, with success in other parts
of the house, is using a load of telephone line that I came in to for
free. It has eight wires in each run so I split 4 positive and 4
negative. It adds up to roughly 14 gauge. I have checked, re-
checked, and re-checked again all the connections and they are
correct so I presume the runs are simply too long for the wire I am
using. Maybe upping to 12 gauge will help, but before spending the
money I'm just looking for ideas here. Thanks in advance.



I don't know if you'll even see this reply since I removed all the
cross-posted groups except the one in which I participate, but just in
case...

It's unlikely that the guage of the wire is the issue. More likely a
problem with a splice somewhere. For a run that short you could use 24
guage and it would still work. Are you SURE there isn't a crossed
conductor where you made your 4/4 splits?

What else changed when you moved the receiver? You added twenty feet of
wire and ______________. Are the speakers all the same as they were
before?

What's happening is the protection relay on your receiver kicking in
(that's the clicking you're hearing). If there was a short in one of
the lines I would expect it to kick in immediately at ANY volume, so
this is a little confusing.

What you're describing sounds like a case of the amp seeing a lower
impedance than it would like. That's why I asked if any of the speakers
changed. If any of your speakers are less than eight ohms, combining A
and B outputs may drop the impedance below what the receiver can manage.
Does it work if you run B only and leave A switched off?

--
"It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!"
- Lorin David Schultz
in the control room
making even bad news sound good

(Remove spamblock to reply)

Every time you splice a wire you loose 2-4db per splice.

Did you forget a decimal point in front of those numbers?

-John O

"Joseph Oberlander" wrote:

Every time you splice a wire you loose 2-4db per splice.


I beg your pardon? How do you figure that?

--
"It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!"
- Lorin David Schultz
in the control room
making even bad news sound good

(Remove spamblock to reply)

Joseph Oberlander wrote:
Eek. Three splices and you expect it to work properly? Every
time you splice a wire you loose 2-4db per splice. Three, plus
the connectors on the end... That's going to add up to a noticeable
load increase on the receiver. Splicing bad.

Uh, well...

Just to prove my own remaining sanity, I just did an experiment
where I took three lengths of 24 gauge stranded wire (4 strands)
and "spliced it." I didn't solder it, I didn't use any crimped
connectors, I didn't use wire nuts or any other such contrivances.
I simply stripped about 3/4" of insulation and twisted it together
between by thumb and forefinger, then wrapped the result with about
1" of electrical tape.

My crude "splices" added approximately 0.005 ohms to the total
resistance of the wire.

Now, you're claiming 2-4 dB per splice, let's take the middle
and say 3 dB. That means half the power is lost in the splice.
That would ONLY be true if the load impedance were on the order
of 0.005 ohms, which I suspect is NOT the case.

Assuming a nominal 8-ohm load, the 0.005 ohms added would result
in 0.0054 dB TOTAL.

Either I'm REAL good at making splcies, or you're REAL bad at making
splices.

In any case, I have seen an untold number of people splice speaker
wire by simply stripping and twisting everything together, which
makes a very effective short circuit on the amplifier. I'd bet
a nickel that we'd find something not unlike this here.

"Lorin David Schultz" wrote in message
news:xI%oe.33206$wr.6267@clgrps12...
"Joseph Oberlander" wrote:

Every time you splice a wire you loose 2-4db per splice.


I beg your pardon? How do you figure that?

And even if that were true, that wouldn't explain the relays clicking in and
out, because the splices would be adding resistance which would presumably
reduce current draw.

Two possibilities. First, something is putting a very low-resistance load on
the line, possibly a strand of one of the wires shorting to the other
conductor. It's very thin, so it's not a dead short, but it's still enough
that when the volume goes up, it draws enough current to kick the amp into
protection mode.

Second, the added capacitance of the longer wire is causing the amp to go
unstable, and the protection circuits are kicking in because of that.

I'd rate the first idea as most probable, the second as improbable but not
impossible. Go get some 12 gauge wire, enough to do the run with no splices,
and when you strip it and connect it, keep an eye open for stray strands.

Peace,
Paul

RAO removed, I suspect that's where Oberlander with "2 dB per
splice" and "load increase on the receiver" is posting from, at least
that's where my bias about where such statements would come from.

In rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.pro,rec.audio.tech,rec.au dio.opinion, On 6
Jun 2005 05:28:50 -0700, "glw82664" wrote:

I'm far from an audiophile and need help with some wiring. I have an
old pioneer receiver that has an A/B switch. I use B for satellite
speakers on my deck. Until recently, they worked fine having run about
30 feet of wire from where the receiver sits to the speakers.
Yesterday, I moved the receiver to a room farther away and had to
splice in about an extra 20 feet of wire. There are actually three
splices in each wire now due to obstacles and such. Now, when I turn
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops transmiting
the signal and starts clicking. I presume the extra wire I added is
the problem.

I suspect one of your splices is shorted, this causes excessive
current from the amplifier, and the protection circuitry cuts in,
turning off the output.

The wire I have been using, with success in other parts
of the house, is using a load of telephone line that I came in to for
free. It has eight wires in each run so I split 4 positive and 4
negative. It adds up to roughly 14 gauge. I have checked, re-checked,
and re-checked again all the connections and they are correct so I
presume the runs are simply too long for the wire I am using.

Now that you mention that, this extra cable could give a
significant capacitive load to the amp, possibly causing it to
oscillate at ultrasonic frequencies, causing excess current, and the
protection circuitry cuts in.
Which speakers are playing? A, B, or both? Some receiver designs
put the speakers in series when both A and B are turned on, resulting
in a lower load to the amp, reducing the chance of damage.

Maybe
upping to 12 gauge will help, but before spending the money I'm just
looking for ideas here. Thanks in advance.

Home Depot has a 100ft roll of 12 gauge for twenty-something
dollars, just buy it and cut it in half to get two speaker runs of 50
feet. Or if the distance is actually more than 50 feet, buy two rolls,
or even the jumbo 500 feet roll and save more per foot!

-----
http://mindspring.com/~benbradley

"Joseph Oberlander" wrote in message
.net...


glw82664 wrote:

I'm far from an audiophile and need help with some wiring. I have an
old pioneer receiver that has an A/B switch. I use B for satellite
speakers on my deck. Until recently, they worked fine having run about
30 feet of wire from where the receiver sits to the speakers.
Yesterday, I moved the receiver to a room farther away and had to
splice in about an extra 20 feet of wire. There are actually three
splices in each wire now due to obstacles and such. Now, when I turn
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops transmiting
the signal and starts clicking.

Eek. Three splices and you expect it to work properly? Every
time you splice a wire you loose 2-4db per splice. Three, plus
the connectors on the end... That's going to add up to a noticeable
load increase on the receiver. Splicing bad.


S-T-U-P-I-D.


Cheers,

Margaret

On Mon, 06 Jun 2005 16:58:07 GMT, Joseph Oberlander
wrote:

Eek. Three splices and you expect it to work properly? Every
time you splice a wire you loose 2-4db per splice. Three, plus
the connectors on the end...
3 dbm per RF connector PAIR at microwave frequencies was a *rule of
thumb* I was taught in the US Navy. We were always supposed to
'calibrate' the cable before taking a critical power level measurment.
I can't believe that rule would apply to audio frequencies in any way.

Sounds like the OP has a bad splice (or 2) or has mixed up the
pairing.

, _
, | \ MKA: Steve Urbach
, | )erek No JUNK in my email please
, ____|_/ragonsclaw
, / / / Running United Devices "Cure For Cancer" Project 24/7 Have you helped? http://www.grid.org

glw82664 wrote:
I'm far from an audiophile and need help with some wiring.
I have an
old pioneer receiver that has an A/B switch. I use B for
satellite
speakers on my deck. Until recently, they worked fine
having run
about 30 feet of wire from where the receiver sits to the
speakers.

Shouldn't be a problem.

Yesterday, I moved the receiver to a room farther away and
had to
splice in about an extra 20 feet of wire. There are
actually three
splices in each wire now due to obstacles and such. Now,
when I turn
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops
transmiting
the signal and starts clicking.

Odds are good that one or more of the splices is shorting
out.

I presume the extra wire I added is
the problem.

More likely - one of the the splices is shorting.

The wire I have been using, with success in other parts
of the house, is using a load of telephone line that I
came in to for
free. It has eight wires in each run so I split 4
positive and 4
negative. It adds up to roughly 14 gauge.

However, it might not be all copper.

I have checked,
re-checked, and re-checked again all the connections and
they are
correct so I presume the runs are simply too long for the
wire I am
using.

Frankly, a longer cable run should make the receiver less
sensitive to the speaker load.

Maybe upping to 12 gauge will help, but before spending
the
money I'm just looking for ideas here.

Well, 12 guage cable is pretty cheap - under $0.50 a foot at
one of the home improvement centers for fine-stranded 12
gauge 2 conductor low voltage wire. I paid about $50 for 250
feet, list time I needed some.

Joseph Oberlander wrote:

I'd re-run it with two pieces of 12 gauge wire.

Good advice.

Those 4 pieces of telephone wire aren't 14 gauge, btw.
The look like it, but in terms
of capacity, they are closer to 20 gauge at best.

I believe that doubling the amount of copper per foot drops
you 3 wire gauges. The basic wire is 24 gauge so paralleling
two strands gets you 21 gauge, paralleling 4 gets you 18
gauge, and if you went for broke, paralleing all 8 gets you
to 15 gauge.

Joseph Oberlander wrote:

Eek. Three splices and you expect it to work properly?

If they were well-made splices, there would be no loss at
all. By well-made I mean soldered and taped. Or nicely done
with wirenuts or other proper solderless connector.

Every time you splice a wire you loose 2-4db per splice.

Not in this life. If you do the splice well the loss is
absolutely positively negligable. If you do it badly enough
to have appreciable loss, then the splice will probably fall
the rest of the way apart by itself, pretty quickly.

Joseph Oberlander wrote:
glw82664 wrote:

I'm far from an audiophile and need help with some wiring. I have an
old pioneer receiver that has an A/B switch. I use B for satellite
speakers on my deck. Until recently, they worked fine having run about
30 feet of wire from where the receiver sits to the speakers.
Yesterday, I moved the receiver to a room farther away and had to
splice in about an extra 20 feet of wire. There are actually three
splices in each wire now due to obstacles and such. Now, when I turn
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops transmiting
the signal and starts clicking.

Eek. Three splices and you expect it to work properly? Every
time you splice a wire you loose 2-4db per splice.

Huh??!?!?

Are you assuming he spliced it with Elmer's glue?

-jc

Three, plus
the connectors on the end... That's going to add up to a noticeable
load increase on the receiver. Splicing bad.

I presume the extra wire I added is
the problem. The wire I have been using, with success in other parts
of the house, is using a load of telephone line that I came in to for
free. It has eight wires in each run so I split 4 positive and 4
negative. It adds up to roughly 14 gauge. I have checked, re-checked,
and re-checked again all the connections and they are correct so I
presume the runs are simply too long for the wire I am using.

I'd re-run it with two pieces of 12 gauge wire. Those 4 pieces of
telephone wire aren't 14 gauge, btw. The look like it, but in terms
of capacity, they are closer to 20 gauge at best. This is a common
problem people make, in fact, with cat-5 and simmilar wires. It takes
a lot of them together to equal what one (by then, with the insulation
factored in) decent wire will do. Not that it isn't possible, but
most people find it cumbersome compared to using plain 12 or 14 gauge
stranded electrical wire.

Another option might be to get some Romex and run it under the house.
Another option might be to go with self-powered speakers. Then you'd
just be sending a preamp signal which should be no problem.

(Or just get a small amp for the second room - the best solution of
all, IMO)

In article . com writes:

speakers on my deck. Until recently, they worked fine having run about
30 feet of wire from where the receiver sits to the speakers.
Yesterday, I moved the receiver to a room farther away and had to
splice in about an extra 20 feet of wire. There are actually three
splices in each wire now due to obstacles and such. Now, when I turn
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops transmiting
the signal and starts clicking.

Adding an extra 20 feet of wire wouldn't cause that, but a short or
open at a splice might. Check your splices first. For a 50 foot run at
normal household volume, #16 or even #18 wire will work fine. Go to
Home Depot, buy 100 feet of #16 "zip" cord, cut it in half, and you'll
have decent speaker cables. Make sure you know which is right and
which is left, and identify the polarity so you'll hook + on the
amplifier to + on the speaker.




--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

glw82664 wrote:
I'm far from an audiophile and need help with some wiring. I have an
old pioneer receiver that has an A/B switch. I use B for satellite
speakers on my deck. Until recently, they worked fine having run about
30 feet of wire from where the receiver sits to the speakers.
Yesterday, I moved the receiver to a room farther away and had to
splice in about an extra 20 feet of wire. There are actually three
splices in each wire now due to obstacles and such. Now, when I turn
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops transmiting
the signal and starts clicking. I presume the extra wire I added is
the problem. The wire I have been using, with success in other parts
of the house, is using a load of telephone line that I came in to for
free. It has eight wires in each run so I split 4 positive and 4
negative. It adds up to roughly 14 gauge.

This doesn't sound right. I suspect you're comparing diameters
rather than area. Depending on the speaker power, even four
phone wires might be marginal. Check the current ratings
he
http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm
Add the current ratings of the wire you're using, and you'll see
it's nowhere near 14 gauge.

I have checked, re-checked,
and re-checked again all the connections and they are correct so I
presume the runs are simply too long for the wire I am using. Maybe
upping to 12 gauge will help, but before spending the money I'm just
looking for ideas here. Thanks in advance.

As I said, your total wire gauge is probably marginal, but that
wouldn't
cause the effect you're seeing. As others have said, it's probably
a bad splice or a short, although you seem to imply that it's both
speakers
and that would be a really weird coincidence. Did you check with an
ohmmeter to see if there was any short between the wires.

Of course, don't discount the fact that you may have damaged something
else in the process. Try:
- switching which outputs go to your external speakers
- moving the speakers back inside and see if they still work
when they're close.

The only other thing I can think of is that you might have introduced
a left/right channel short somewhere in the wiring. This might
cause odd behavior as you increase the volume.

-jc

glw82664 wrote:

I'm far from an audiophile and need help with some wiring. I have an
old pioneer receiver that has an A/B switch. I use B for satellite
speakers on my deck. Until recently, they worked fine having run about
30 feet of wire from where the receiver sits to the speakers.
Yesterday, I moved the receiver to a room farther away and had to
splice in about an extra 20 feet of wire. There are actually three
splices in each wire now due to obstacles and such. Now, when I turn
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops transmiting
the signal and starts clicking.

Bad splice? One strand shorting somewhere?

Two suggestions:

1) Rewire with a run of 12-14 gauge wire. No splices.
2) If your deck does *not* require audiophile quality audio, consider
wireless transmission to your speakers. More $$, but less hassle.

In article xI%oe.33206$wr.6267@clgrps12 writes:

"Joseph Oberlander" wrote:
Every time you splice a wire you loose 2-4db per splice.

I beg your pardon? How do you figure that?

Maybe he doesn't strip the insultation off the wires when he splices.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

ric wrote:

glw82664 wrote:

I'm far from an audiophile and need help with some wiring. I have an
old pioneer receiver that has an A/B switch. I use B for satellite
speakers on my deck. Until recently, they worked fine having run about
30 feet of wire from where the receiver sits to the speakers.
Yesterday, I moved the receiver to a room farther away and had to
splice in about an extra 20 feet of wire. There are actually three
splices in each wire now due to obstacles and such. Now, when I turn
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops transmiting
the signal and starts clicking.

Bad splice? One strand shorting somewhere?

Two suggestions:

1) Rewire with a run of 12-14 gauge wire. No splices.
2) If your deck does *not* require audiophile quality audio, consider
wireless transmission to your speakers. More $$, but less hassle.

Good points.

This man is probably clipping the signal as the receiver
tries to supply enough voltage to get the amplifier gain you
require.

I suggest going for heavier wire, without all of those
splices. Places like Home Depot and Lowe's have 12 AWG
low-voltage wire for use with outdoor lighting systems that
is ideal for making long cable runs to speakers located as
yours are. The wire is fairly cheap and is available in 100
and 50 foot lengths.

Another option, since a good receiver should not behave as
he indicated (assuming that the splices are good), is to get
a more robust receiver, but still change to that
continuous-length wire.

Howard Ferstler

Joseph Oberlander wrote:

glw82664 wrote:

I'm far from an audiophile and need help with some wiring. I have an
old pioneer receiver that has an A/B switch. I use B for satellite
speakers on my deck. Until recently, they worked fine having run about
30 feet of wire from where the receiver sits to the speakers.
Yesterday, I moved the receiver to a room farther away and had to
splice in about an extra 20 feet of wire. There are actually three
splices in each wire now due to obstacles and such. Now, when I turn
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops transmiting
the signal and starts clicking.

Eek. Three splices and you expect it to work properly? Every
time you splice a wire you loose 2-4db per splice.

Yoiks. I have done a lot of wire connecting over the years
and have never seen that kind of power cut due to splicing.

Howard Ferstler

glw82664 wrote:

I'm far from an audiophile and need help with some wiring. I have an
old pioneer receiver that has an A/B switch. I use B for satellite
speakers on my deck. Until recently, they worked fine having run about
30 feet of wire from where the receiver sits to the speakers.
Yesterday, I moved the receiver to a room farther away and had to
splice in about an extra 20 feet of wire. There are actually three
splices in each wire now due to obstacles and such. Now, when I turn
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops transmiting
the signal and starts clicking. I presume the extra wire I added is
the problem. The wire I have been using, with success in other parts
of the house, is using a load of telephone line that I came in to for
free. It has eight wires in each run so I split 4 positive and 4
negative. It adds up to roughly 14 gauge. I have checked, re-checked,
and re-checked again all the connections and they are correct so I
presume the runs are simply too long for the wire I am using. Maybe
upping to 12 gauge will help, but before spending the money I'm just
looking for ideas here. Thanks in advance.

You are possibly clipping the signal as the receiver tries
to supply enough voltage to get the amplifier gain you
require. It is also possible that the configuration of the
wire is causing some capacitive artifacts. A splice may also
be shorting together, although if that were happening you
would not be getting sound even at low levels, let alone at
moderate levels.

I suggest going for heavier wire, without all of those
potentially problem causing splices. Places like Home Depot
and Lowe's have 12 AWG low-voltage wire for use with outdoor
lighting systems that is ideal for making long cable runs to
speakers located as yours are, especially outdoors. The wire
is fairly cheap and is available in 100 and 50 foot lengths.

Howard Ferstler

I suspect one of your splices is shorted, this causes excessive
current from the amplifier, and the protection circuitry cuts in,
turning off the output.

Given the reported symptom, that's what I'd expect.

Home Depot has a 100ft roll of 12 gauge for twenty-something
dollars, just buy it and cut it in half to get two speaker runs of 50
feet. Or if the distance is actually more than 50 feet, buy two rolls,
or even the jumbo 500 feet roll and save more per foot!

Or just buy however many feet you do need off their big roll.

There's nothing inherently wrong with a properly done splice. But wire's
so darned cheap that there's rarely any good reason to splice for
anything but the most temporary solutions.

mc wrote:
I'd look for bad splices first. Beyond that, telephone
wire
really isn't suitable for speaker connections. Each of
your 4 wires
is (approximately) 22-24 AWG. When you bundle them
together, they
may be close to 14 AWG in overall size, but they won't
have the
current carrying capacity of a real 14 AWG wire made if
many very
tiny strands.

My understanding is exactly the opposite -- that separate
strands (of
the correct total cross sectional area) are better than a
single
wire.

Unfortunately, yetther old wife's tale.

(1) Speaker cables aren't generally large enough to have
appreciable losses in the audio band due to skin effect.

(2) Stranding the wire doesn't reduce the diameter of the
conductive part of the wire. Even insulating them makes no
difference, because skin effect is based on magnetic
coupling, not conductivity.

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
news:znr1118087922k@trad...

In article xI%oe.33206$wr.6267@clgrps12 writes:

"Joseph Oberlander" wrote:
Every time you splice a wire you loose 2-4db per splice.

I beg your pardon? How do you figure that?

Maybe he doesn't strip the insultation off the wires when he splices.

LOL! Literally! :-))

On 6/6/05 10:32 AM, in article , "mc"
wrote:


I'd look for bad splices first. Beyond that, telephone wire
really isn't suitable for speaker connections. Each of your 4 wires is
(approximately) 22-24 AWG. When you bundle them together, they may be
close to 14 AWG in overall size, but they won't have the current carrying
capacity of a real 14 AWG wire made if many very tiny strands.

My understanding is exactly the opposite -- that separate strands (of the
correct total cross sectional area) are better than a single wire. That's
because of "skin effect" (tendency of high frequencies to be carried at the
periphery of the wire, although that is probably negligible at audio
frequencies) and also because of better heat dissipation.

Can someone elucidate?

Skin effect is really really important if you have any real program content
you care about in the upper radio end of the spectrum

Methinks legs are being pulled here??
Bg

In article writes:

Bad splice? One strand shorting somewhere?

Since he said he's paralleling conductors in a multi-pair cable to get
a lower resistance, I kind of like the suggestion someone made that he
got them mixed up. He may have a short between the leads going to a
channel, or have the hot side of one channel connected to the hot side
of the other channel.

You don't need to be an audiophile to work this one out, but it helps
if you have some basic electrician skills.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

On Mon, 06 Jun 2005 10:32:23 -0400, mc wrote:


I'd look for bad splices first. Beyond that, telephone wire really isn't
suitable for speaker connections. Each of your 4 wires is
(approximately) 22-24 AWG. When you bundle them together, they may be
close to 14 AWG in overall size, but they won't have the current
carrying capacity of a real 14 AWG wire made if many very tiny strands.

My understanding is exactly the opposite -- that separate strands (of the
correct total cross sectional area) are better than a single wire. That's
because of "skin effect" (tendency of high frequencies to be carried at
the periphery of the wire, although that is probably negligible at audio
frequencies) and also because of better heat dissipation.

Skin effect isn't an issue.

But I wouldn't consider 4 strands to be a *real* stranded cable. When
you've only got 4 strands bundled together, you've got a pretty high
percentage of air to copper. And air's not a particularly good conductor.

"Howard Ferstler" wrote in message
...
glw82664 wrote:

You are possibly clipping the signal as the receiver tries
to supply enough voltage to get the amplifier gain you
require.

**Nonsense. Utter, banal nonsense. Read what the poster typed. He said:
---
"There are actually three
splices in each wire now due to obstacles and such. Now, when I turn
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops transmiting
the signal and starts clicking."
---

What is happening is now obvious. The key words a "moderate" and
"splices".

It is also possible that the configuration of the
wire is causing some capacitive artifacts.

**Possible, but extremely unlikely.

A splice may also
be shorting together, although if that were happening you
would not be getting sound even at low levels, let alone at
moderate levels.

**Wrong! The protection systems in many amps rely on the current flow
through the output devices. At low levels, little current will flow and the
amp will not shut down.


I suggest going for heavier wire, without all of those
potentially problem causing splices. Places like Home Depot
and Lowe's have 12 AWG low-voltage wire for use with outdoor
lighting systems that is ideal for making long cable runs to
speakers located as yours are, especially outdoors. The wire
is fairly cheap and is available in 100 and 50 foot lengths.

**On that we agree. CONTIGUOUS lengths of cable will probably solve the
problem.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

Eek. Three splices and you expect it to work properly? Every
time you splice a wire you loose 2-4db per splice.

Huh? If every splice in a wire had a resistance of a few ohms, our houses
would burn down. Think about the number of splices between you and the
power generating plant.

A soldered splice has no more resistance than an unbroken wire. A good
tight solderless splice can also be very good.

If you are losing 2 to 4 dB per splice, adopt a different splicing
technique! Or are you thinking of VHF cables where there is an unavoidable
impedance mismatch? That doesn't apply at audio frequencies.

Agent 86 wrote:

Skin effect isn't an issue.

But I wouldn't consider 4 strands to be a *real* stranded cable. When
you've only got 4 strands bundled together, you've got a pretty high
percentage of air to copper. And air's not a particularly good conductor.

Pretty high percentage of air to copper? What does this mean? And there
would be nothing wrong with 1 strand!

My understanding is exactly the opposite -- that separate strands (of the
correct total cross sectional area) are better than a single wire.
That's
because of "skin effect" (tendency of high frequencies to be carried at
the
periphery of the wire, although that is probably negligible at audio
frequencies) and also because of better heat dissipation.

Can someone elucidate?

Skin effect is really really important if you have any real program
content
you care about in the upper radio end of the spectrum

Like I said, "negligible at audio frequencies"...

I mentioned it because it's not a reason to *avoid* using multiple strands.

Trevor Wilson wrote:


**On that we agree. CONTIGUOUS lengths of cable will probably solve the
problem.

I would tend to agree. But the problem isn't with splices, in general.
The problem here is likely how the "splices" were made. I have never had
a problem with splices. A speaker cable with 50 "proper" splices would
make no difference.

Joseph Oberlander wrote:


Eek. Three splices and you expect it to work properly?

Why not?


Every time you splice a wire you loose 2-4db per splice. Three, plus
the connectors on the end... That's going to add up to a noticeable
load increase on the receiver. Splicing bad.

BULL!

On Mon, 06 Jun 2005 20:18:15 -0500, Joe Sensor wrote:

Pretty high percentage of air to copper? What does this mean? And there
would be nothing wrong with 1 strand!

Maybe not the best way to say it? Try this...

Agreed, there's nothing wrong with 1 strand (solid wire). The OP
mentioned 14 AWG, so we'll go with that. A solid piece of 14 AWG wire will
have a certain current carrying capacity, and also a certain resistance
and impedance for a given length. If you're going to permanently install
it from your house to your deck, It'll do fine.

If you need to move it around from time to time (get your speakers out of
the snow, for instance), you probably want something a bit less stiff. So
you run down to Home Depot (or Radio Shack, or Best Buy, or Tweeter) & get
some 14 AWG zip cord (or speaker cable). If you look close, you'll notice
that it's made up of lots (and lots) of teeney-tiny strands of wire that
fit really close together so there's not much air space between them. The
air's not particularly important, but the implication is that if you use
enough strands so they fit together tightly, you have *almost* as much
metal in a stranded wire as in a solid wire of the same gauge.

But the OP made his *approximately* 14 gauge wire from only 4 strands of
telephone wire. Since circles don't fit together very well, there's gonna
be a lot of air space in the middle. Again, it's not the air that's
important, it's the metal that's *not* in there, because it's the metal
that carries the juice (lightning notwithstanding).

Mike Rivers wrote:
In article writes:

Bad splice? One strand shorting somewhere?

Since he said he's paralleling conductors in a multi-pair cable to get
a lower resistance, I kind of like the suggestion someone made that he
got them mixed up. He may have a short between the leads going to a
channel, or have the hot side of one channel connected to the hot side
of the other channel.

You don't need to be an audiophile to work this one out, but it helps
if you have some basic electrician skills.

I simply would not use the cable he describes...too much margin for error,
and too little money saved.

jak