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Default Amplitude, Power, Gain, Loudness, Volume

The question of is there a correct gain for playback has come up before, but
I don't think it has been answered conclusively. I bring it up again because
of an interesting experience today.

I was playing back one of my own recordings of our local concert band. It
was just a quick recording with the little Zoom H6 digital with its own
built-in XY capsule, and then equalized in editing to boost the bass a
little. A lot of starts and stops during rehearsal, with a lot of talking
from the director. It sounded OK but uninspiring. I'm saying to myself,
well, just wait until I get my real microphones out. This just sounds a
little "punky."

But I knew that I wasn't playing it at live levels, because I didn't expect
that much from the recorder's mikes, so I grabbed the remote and boosted it
up a little - then a little more... easy now, just a teense more, and
suddenly something "clicked" in, and the sound became very real and very
fabulous, to the point where I had to go back through all that I just heard
and hear it again, hear it right.

It was just enthralling - everything about the presentation just seemed more
right. The imaging improved, the balance among instruments, the frequency
response - this was now believable, I could "see" my band again.

So what gives here? I have heard that just the right volume "fills" the room
just right. Obviously there must be some level that compares to the live
levels of the instruments. You can have too low, and it sounds punky,
elevator music, not real yet. It can be too high, where no instruments on
the recording can be heard that loud in real life. Is it possible that
having been there, it "clicked" in because of my memory of the live sound?

Acoustically, what have we got here? Your speakers put out some direct sound
and some reflected and reverberant. But those ratios are the same at any
volume, right? So which of those fields is most responsible for the
impression of loudness? The direct field is probably most indicative of
nearness or closeness of the instruments. The reverberant field would
perhaps be most responsible for "how loud is this group here in my room
compared to its size vs how loud would the live sound fill a room?" That is
an awkward way of saying does the size of this sound match how big it would
be in real life? Like, in a movie theater, it always seems like the voices
are much louder than a person would be if he were talking live on stage.
Same for music - larger than life.

So that's my story so far. I'm thinking it has more to do with apparent size
of the group within the construct that suffices for the combination of
recorded vs actual reverberant field in your room. We well know how loud a
simple human voice or a piano would be if it were in our room. But the
question is more about a full symphony orchestra stuffed into your listening
room. If you were there live, the sound would attain a certain level
throughout the hall, except for the direct sound, which would diminish at a
greater ratio than the reverberant. So there must be some sweet spot in the
loudness of the reverberant field in your room that "clicks" in with your
subjective impression of hall size. Too low a volume, they seem too far
away, like you are on the outside of the hall listening through an open
doorway. Too loud and it seems bigger than life - no room I have listened in
is this loud for unamplified music. Just right, and most characteristics
"settle in" and seem to agree with the apparent size, the frequency balance,
the precision of imaging, and being able to hear the lowest sounds above the
noise floor.

Any other thoughts or theories on how loud it should be?

Gary Eickmeier

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Walt Walt is offline
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Default Amplitude, Power, Gain, Loudness, Volume

On 2/5/2014 12:40 PM, news wrote:


Any other thoughts or theories on how loud it should be?



Yeah. Just turn it up to eleven!

(c:

--
//Walt

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ST[_2_] ST[_2_] is offline
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Default Amplitude, Power, Gain, Loudness, Volume

On Thursday, 6 February 2014 01:40:01 UTC+8, news wrote:
.....
So what gives here? I have heard that just the right volume "fills" the r=

oom=20
=20
just right. Obviously there must be some level that compares to the live=

=20
=20
levels of the instruments. You can have too low, and it sounds punky,=20
=20
elevator music, not real yet. It can be too high, where no instruments on=

=20
=20
the recording can be heard that loud in real life. Is it possible that=20
=20
having been there, it "clicked" in because of my memory of the live sound=

?


Same here. The right volume is individual's preference. For an example, 3 o=
f you who were at the concert would prefer different volume setting when au=
ditioning the same recording. Why?


Acoustically, what have we got here? Your speakers put out some direct so=

und=20
=20
and some reflected and reverberant. But those ratios are the same at any=

=20
=20
volume, right? ....


I do occasionally listen music using the iPhone or a small transistor in a =
small fully tiled bathroom. There is a right volume THAT fills the room wit=
h enjoyable but far from real loudness level. There is still room to play a=
little louder (closer to live music) without compromising the quality but =
that doesn't sound best to my ears.

=20
=20
But the=20
=20
question is more about a full symphony orchestra stuffed into your listen=

ing=20
=20
room. If you were there live, the sound would attain a certain level=20
=20
throughout the hall, except for the direct sound,...
=20


It is something puzzles me for years when someone could visualize the origi=
nal venue just by listening to the playback. Somehow, my brain confine the =
sound within the four walls of my room. Friends describe the dog's barking =
in Amused to Death coming from my neighbor's house but for me I don't get t=
he sense of sound coming beyond the walls of my room.

Could it be we are just imaging certain things to recreate the reality in o=
ur head?

IMHO, the right volume and the recreation of the recording venue with playb=
ack do not correlate. But then, we listen differently by emphasizing differ=
ent aspect of the music.

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[email protected] dpierce.cartchunk.org@gmail.com is offline
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Posts: 334
Default Amplitude, Power, Gain, Loudness, Volume

On Wednesday, February 5, 2014 10:40:01 AM UTC-7, news wrote:
The question of is there a correct gain for playback has come up before, but
I don't think it has been answered conclusively. I bring it up again because
of an interesting experience today.

I was playing back one of my own recordings of our local concert band.
...
It sounded OK but uninspiring. I'm saying to myself,

But I knew that I wasn't playing it at live levels, because I didn't expect
that much from the recorder's mikes, so I grabbed the remote and boosted it
up a little - then a little more... easy now, just a teense more, and
suddenly something "clicked" in, and the sound became very real and very
fabulous, to the point where I had to go back through all that I just heard
and hear it again, hear it right.

It was just enthralling - everything about the presentation just seemed more
right. The imaging improved, the balance among instruments, the frequency
response - this was now believable, I could "see" my band again.

So what gives here? I have heard that just the right volume "fills" the room
just right.


I will simply repeat the story an experiment I did some years ago,
one that I have posted here time and again.

I had done a recording of a local moderate sized classical
orchestral performance. In addition to the recording equipment,
I also had precision sound level metering equipment and was
able to make take some good samples of sound levels at
several places during the performance.

At the gathering after the concert, we had available a good
playback system in a room apart from where the party was, so
I set up the equipment and was playing it back for people.

I asked people, individually and in small groups, to adjust the
volume on the playback until it matched their memory of how loud
it was in the performance venue. Every single person, except one,
adjusted the volume so the playback SPLs were measurably louder
than the original performance, some by a substantial amount. And,
now that you mention it, some had a similar "aha" moment where it
could be said that it "clicked" in for them as well. And, my memory
at this point may be fuzzy on this detail because I didn't note it
explicitly at the time, those most cock-sure of the level were the
farthest off, in general.

Not a single person adjusted the volume control so it was lower than
the original playback level.

And the one person who consistently nailed it dead-nuts on was the
conductor.

Is it possible that having been there, it "clicked" in
because of my memory of the live sound?


It has been said, and the research is there to back it
up, that acoustical memory is notoriously unreliable.

I will further suggest that there is NO purely acoustical
memory in situations like the one your are relating. The
entire experience contributes to the memory, the sight,
the surroundings, the woman sitting next to you who's
about to ralph her liquid lunch in your lap during a
performance of the Back St. Matthew Passion (as happened
to me one time), all mix together as the "memory". And each
element colors the other.

If you are going to tell me that you got the actual
acoustic levels matched to within a fair-the-well by
ears and memory, I'm going to tell you that the probability
is very high that, on an objective basis, you're wrong.

If what you're saying is that by adjusting the playback
volume, you found a point where you achieved the same visceral
feelings you experienced during the live performance then
I say, good for you, and have no counter to your claim.

Just don't get yourself upset by bringing out and properly
deploying an SPL meter.

Dick Pierce

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Default Amplitude, Power, Gain, Loudness, Volume

Well hello Mr. Pierce! I was wondering if you were still out there.

Thanks for the anecdote. I keep forgetting to bring the sound meter to the
recording session. Maybe next week. But your story surprises me. I would
have expected the opposite - that the people would have set the level lower
than actual. I would think we can tolerate higher levels in the larger
concert hall.

I continue to investigate.

Gary Eickmeier



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Default Amplitude, Power, Gain, Loudness, Volume

I hit "the pocket" again today on this volume thing. Recording is a big band
in a decent rehearsal room. Played too low, it seems too brash, noisy,
screechy, however you want to describe it. Bring it up to "just right" live
levels and all of the mid and lower freqs seem to fill in, like turning up
the color control on a black & white image. The individual instruemnts sound
more like themselves - horns especially - and the ensemble is no longer
harsh but very realistic. I just want to hear more and more.

If you have experienced those days when your system just wasn't "making it"
for you, you didn't want to hear more, just turn it off and get the wine,
then this may be a clue. We are all reticent to turn it up because of
neighbors or wives and family sensitivity, but this may be a lot more than a
social matter. It may be a fidelity matter in a more important way than
previously thought.

Gary Eickmeier

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Posts: 1
Default Amplitude, Power, Gain, Loudness, Volume

On the subject of loudness vs "rightness" maybe we're talking about not much
more than Fletcher Munsen?

Gary Eickmeier

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Kele Kele is offline
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Posts: 24
Default Amplitude, Power, Gain, Loudness, Volume

The question of is there a correct gain for playback...

There is and I believe the reason there is has to do with the listening env=
ironement. The proper level is when the sound level is enough to pressuriz=
e or excite the room. A point when a stereo signal fills the room and soun=
ds like the rear speakers are also on (via sweet spot). At the same time, =
too loud is when the actual sound would be louder than it would be in real =
life. Hard with amplified instruments, but setting loudness to "as if you =
were there" level usually works for the upper level. It is amazing when th=
e sound snaps correct when the level is set right for the track. Important=
topic.

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Scott[_6_] Scott[_6_] is offline
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Posts: 642
Default Amplitude, Power, Gain, Loudness, Volume

On Friday, February 7, 2014 9:38:01 AM UTC-8, wrote=
:
On Wednesday, February 5, 2014 10:40:01 AM UTC-7, news wrote:
=20
The question of is there a correct gain for playback has come up before=

, but=20
=20
I don't think it has been answered conclusively. I bring it up again be=

cause=20
=20
of an interesting experience today.

=20
=20

=20
I was playing back one of my own recordings of our local concert band.=

=20
=20
...

=20
It sounded OK but uninspiring. I'm saying to myself,=20

=20
=20

=20
But I knew that I wasn't playing it at live levels, because I didn't ex=

pect=20
=20
that much from the recorder's mikes, so I grabbed the remote and booste=

d it=20
=20
up a little - then a little more... easy now, just a teense more, and=

=20
=20
suddenly something "clicked" in, and the sound became very real and ver=

y=20
=20
fabulous, to the point where I had to go back through all that I just h=

eard=20
=20
and hear it again, hear it right.

=20
=20

=20
It was just enthralling - everything about the presentation just seemed=

more=20
=20
right. The imaging improved, the balance among instruments, the frequen=

cy=20
=20
response - this was now believable, I could "see" my band again.

=20
=20

=20
So what gives here? I have heard that just the right volume "fills" the=

room=20
=20
just right.=20

=20
=20
=20
I will simply repeat the story an experiment I did some years ago,
=20
one that I have posted here time and again.
=20
=20
=20
I had done a recording of a local moderate sized classical
=20
orchestral performance. In addition to the recording equipment,
=20
I also had precision sound level metering equipment and was
=20
able to make take some good samples of sound levels at
=20
several places during the performance.
=20
=20
=20
At the gathering after the concert, we had available a good=20
=20
playback system in a room apart from where the party was, so=20
=20
I set up the equipment and was playing it back for people.
=20
=20
=20
I asked people, individually and in small groups, to adjust the
=20
volume on the playback until it matched their memory of how loud
=20
it was in the performance venue. Every single person, except one,
=20
adjusted the volume so the playback SPLs were measurably louder=20
=20
than the original performance, some by a substantial amount. And,
=20
now that you mention it, some had a similar "aha" moment where it
=20
could be said that it "clicked" in for them as well. And, my memory
=20
at this point may be fuzzy on this detail because I didn't note it
=20
explicitly at the time, those most cock-sure of the level were the
=20
farthest off, in general.
=20
=20
=20
Not a single person adjusted the volume control so it was lower than
=20
the original playback level.
=20
=20
=20
And the one person who consistently nailed it dead-nuts on was the=20
=20
conductor.
=20
=20
=20
Is it possible that having been there, it "clicked" in=20

=20
because of my memory of the live sound?=20

=20
=20
=20
It has been said, and the research is there to back it
=20
up, that acoustical memory is notoriously unreliable.
=20
=20
=20
I will further suggest that there is NO purely acoustical
=20
memory in situations like the one your are relating. The
=20
entire experience contributes to the memory, the sight,
=20
the surroundings, the woman sitting next to you who's=20
=20
about to ralph her liquid lunch in your lap during a=20
=20
performance of the Back St. Matthew Passion (as happened=20
=20
to me one time), all mix together as the "memory". And each
=20
element colors the other.
=20
=20
=20
If you are going to tell me that you got the actual
=20
acoustic levels matched to within a fair-the-well by
=20
ears and memory, I'm going to tell you that the probability
=20
is very high that, on an objective basis, you're wrong.
=20
=20
=20
If what you're saying is that by adjusting the playback
=20
volume, you found a point where you achieved the same visceral
=20
feelings you experienced during the live performance then
=20
I say, good for you, and have no counter to your claim.
=20
=20
=20
Just don't get yourself upset by bringing out and properly
=20
deploying an SPL meter.
=20
=20
=20
Dick Pierce


Is this a function of failed memory or perhaps some other psychoacoustic ph=
enomenon that involves other reliable differences between the live experien=
ce and the playback? I would think that if it were purely a memory issue th=
en the effect would be somewhat evenly distributed between memories that we=
re above and below the actual levels of the live performance. I think that =
for such a consistent deviation in one direction that this would suggest so=
mething other than audio memory is in play. It seems unlikely that everyone=
would have the same flavor of memory failure. I would also be curious as t=
o what differences in sound levels were present in the live performance fro=
m the various seats in the venue and how that correlated to the perceptions=
of the playback. The differences in sound vary pretty widely depending on =
where one is seated. And not just in levels.

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Oregonian Haruspex Oregonian Haruspex is offline
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Default Amplitude, Power, Gain, Loudness, Volume

On 2014-02-10 11:30:05 +0000, news said:

I hit "the pocket" again today on this volume thing. Recording is a big band
in a decent rehearsal room. Played too low, it seems too brash, noisy,
screechy, however you want to describe it. Bring it up to "just right" live
levels and all of the mid and lower freqs seem to fill in, like turning up
the color control on a black & white image. The individual instruemnts sound
more like themselves - horns especially - and the ensemble is no longer
harsh but very realistic. I just want to hear more and more.

If you have experienced those days when your system just wasn't "making it"
for you, you didn't want to hear more, just turn it off and get the wine,
then this may be a clue. We are all reticent to turn it up because of
neighbors or wives and family sensitivity, but this may be a lot more than a
social matter. It may be a fidelity matter in a more important way than
previously thought.

Gary Eickmeier


It may be that playback volume alone is not the only contributing
factor here. It could be that in the presence of increased signal
levels all components in the system are not simply increasing in volume
at the same rate. There are lots of non-linearities to consider here.

It might be possible that one EQ setting might make you happy at low
volume levels, and yet sound funny at higher levels, and so forth.
Perhaps the reflection and dampening of the sound waves in your room
contribute to this as well.



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Default Amplitude, Power, Gain, Loudness, Volume

"Oregonian Haruspex" wrote in message
...


It may be that playback volume alone is not the only contributing factor
here. It could be that in the presence of increased signal levels all
components in the system are not simply increasing in volume at the same
rate. There are lots of non-linearities to consider here.

It might be possible that one EQ setting might make you happy at low
volume levels, and yet sound funny at higher levels, and so forth.
Perhaps the reflection and dampening of the sound waves in your room
contribute to this as well.


I know that the ears can compress the sound to a certain extent, so that a
very loud sound can be subjectively equivalent to a just loud sound. I also
know about the Fletcher-Munson curve, which tells us that "it sounds
different at different volume levels." The curve has us more sensitive to
treble than bass frequencies as the gain goes down. So they inject a little
more bass as you turn it down more so that it is subjectively equivalent to
normal levels.

So perhaps that's it - Turned too low, it just doesn't have the beef on its
bones to sound like when you were there.Turned too high, it bloomphs out to
sound obnoxious or at least to fat to be real. Something about how all the
frequencies get treated by the room.

Gary Eickmeier

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Kele Kele is offline
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Default Amplitude, Power, Gain, Loudness, Volume

My speakers don't start to "party" until about 10 watts. Below that and the sound is lacking presence. Another pair of speakers I've had in the same room are much more refined and delicate and could be more believable at lower volumes.

I don't think a mic is going to interpret the actual volume received by everyone. Interesting that the Conductor chose the most like recorded volume... the person in the spot where mics are usually placed.

My sub can be made louder with proximity reinforcement from walls, floor, etc. Maybe the sound reflection convergence (like ripples on water ;p ) multiplies the sound hence most test subjects "erred" louder... from their perspective.

My stereo is incapable of rock-concert playback levels, nor can it reproduce the intensity of a real explosion (movies) and so these I must insert imagination vs the right volume.

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Kele wrote:
My speakers don't start to "party" until about 10 watts. Below that
and the sound is lacking presence. Another pair of speakers I've had
in the same room are much more refined and delicate and could be more
believable at lower volumes.


I'm beginning to wonder how radiation pattern changes with volume. Maybe
that "just right" volume has less to do with loudness than how the
frequencies fill the room. The test would be doing the above live vs volume
adjusting exercise with speakers with various radiation schemes. I have
heard one engineer friend say that you can turn the Maggies up a lot more
without that annoying harshness that most speakers have.

Gary Eickmeier

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