Subwoofers! Etc.

In article >, Trevor > wrote:
>On 11/02/2021 11:57 pm, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>> For music, I'd rather have restricted bass
>> than lumpy out of control bass. Your mileage may differ.
>
>And a real sub for music should, and can provide extended bass that is
>NOT lumpy or out of control. Whether it does or not simply depends on
>your choice of sub/s and X-over.

And mains. And the room. The room is the hard part.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 11/02/2021 9:05 pm, geoff wrote:
> On 12/02/2021 2:13 pm, gray_wolf wrote:
>> On 11/02/2021 3:43 pm, polymod wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> "geoff"Â* wrote in message ...
>>>
>>> On 12/02/2021 1:57 am, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>>> Ty FordÂ* > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Not a huge difference on CDs so far, but movies with 5.1 or more...Wow. We =
>>>>> watched "Hook" a few nights ago and John Williams' score was HUGE.=20
>>>>>
>>>>> So, how do we feel about subs?
>>>>
>>>> Subs are necessary for movies these days, because just about all the
>>>> soundtracks made since the nineties have used the LFE channel for something.
>>>> Maybe not for very much in the case of a typical romantic comedy, but
>>>> something.
>>>
>>> Bed-head thumping against the wall ?
>>>
>>> ROTFLMAO!!!
>>> Good one.
>>>
>>> Poly
>>>
>>
>> And what kind of FX when the bed breaks and crashes?
>>
>
> Crunch.... squelch...pop .
>
> geoff

It was Bang!! Crash!! Then she whispers "I'll bet this woke Evelyn up."

On 13/02/2021 1:44 am, Don Pearce wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Feb 2021 21:08:52 +1100, Trevor > wrote:
>
>> On 11/02/2021 11:57 pm, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>> For music, I'd rather have restricted bass
>>> than lumpy out of control bass. Your mileage may differ.
>>
>> And a real sub for music should, and can provide extended bass that is
>> NOT lumpy or out of control. Whether it does or not simply depends on
>> your choice of sub/s and X-over.
>>
>
> If the sub is good (not just a cinema boom box) and properly
> integrated, you won't be aware that it is there - until you turn it
> off and something goes missing.


Yep, hate the use of "sub" for almost any speaker that is not strictly a
tweeter these days! :-(

On Friday, February 12, 2021 at 8:53:03 AM UTC-8, John Williamson wrote:
> On 12/02/2021 14:44, Don Pearce wrote:
>
> > If the sub is good (not just a cinema boom box) and properly
> > integrated, you won't be aware that it is there - until you turn it
> > off and something goes missing.
> >
> This. As someone on here has in their .sig file. "If you notice the
> sound, it's wrong."

Thanks, John, for the acknowledgement. My simple maxim sometimes speaks to the sales world's "Look at this!" methods. Another place where "until you turn it off" works is for evaluating sound reinforcement in smaller environs.

~ Roy W. Rising "If you notice the *sound* it's wrong."
>
> The tricky bit is matching the whole system and the room so you don't
> notice it.
> --
> Tciao for Now!
>
> John.

On 2/12/2021 5:41 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> In article >, Trevor > wrote:
>> On 11/02/2021 11:57 pm, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>> For music, I'd rather have restricted bass
>>> than lumpy out of control bass. Your mileage may differ.
>>
>> And a real sub for music should, and can provide extended bass that is
>> NOT lumpy or out of control. Whether it does or not simply depends on
>> your choice of sub/s and X-over.
>
> And mains. And the room. The room is the hard part.
> --scott
>
And the EQ of the recording. And the LF roll-off characteristics of the
pre-amp and amplifier.

IMO, those interested in subwoofers are looking for a visceral
experience rather than an accurate reproduction, so to that end, none of
the variables really matter.

--
best regards,

Neil

On Sun, 14 Feb 2021 17:31:59 -0800 (PST), "Roy W. Rising" > wrote:

>On Friday, February 12, 2021 at 8:53:03 AM UTC-8, John Williamson wrote:
>> On 12/02/2021 14:44, Don Pearce wrote:
>>
>> > If the sub is good (not just a cinema boom box) and properly
>> > integrated, you won't be aware that it is there - until you turn it
>> > off and something goes missing.
>> >
>> This. As someone on here has in their .sig file. "If you notice the
>> sound, it's wrong."
>
>Thanks, John, for the acknowledgement. My simple maxim sometimes speaks to the sales world's "Look at this!" methods. Another place where "until you turn it off" works is for evaluating sound reinforcement in smaller environs.
>
>~ Roy W. Rising "If you notice the *sound* it's wrong."
>>
>> The tricky bit is matching the whole system and the room so you don't
>> notice it.

What do you use you blend it in so the sound is seamless? An equaliaer? The sub controls?

Has anyone eveer used the built-in Denon receiver room acousticss software adjustments feature? If so, how effective is it, and at what upgrade level
do you need?

I have a Yamaha YST-SW315, which seems adequate, but I've always been intriqued by the Denon claims. My old Pioneer VSX-31 has room adjustment to some
degree, but I was never quite satisfied that their version worked well.

On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 07:26:03 -0500, wrote:

>On Sun, 14 Feb 2021 17:31:59 -0800 (PST), "Roy W. Rising" > wrote:
>
>>On Friday, February 12, 2021 at 8:53:03 AM UTC-8, John Williamson wrote:
>>> On 12/02/2021 14:44, Don Pearce wrote:
>>>
>>> > If the sub is good (not just a cinema boom box) and properly
>>> > integrated, you won't be aware that it is there - until you turn it
>>> > off and something goes missing.
>>> >
>>> This. As someone on here has in their .sig file. "If you notice the
>>> sound, it's wrong."
>>
>>Thanks, John, for the acknowledgement. My simple maxim sometimes speaks to the sales world's "Look at this!" methods. Another place where "until you turn it off" works is for evaluating sound reinforcement in smaller environs.
>>
>>~ Roy W. Rising "If you notice the *sound* it's wrong."
>>>
>>> The tricky bit is matching the whole system and the room so you don't
>>> notice it.
>
>What do you use you blend it in so the sound is seamless? An equaliaer? The sub controls?
>
>Has anyone eveer used the built-in Denon receiver room acousticss software adjustments feature? If so, how effective is it, and at what upgrade level
>do you need?
>
>I have a Yamaha YST-SW315, which seems adequate, but I've always been intriqued by the Denon claims. My old Pioneer VSX-31 has room adjustment to some
>degree, but I was never quite satisfied that their version worked well.

You can't correct a room. When rooms are bad it is because they have
resonant modes. these result in huge drops in level at various spots
in the room where waves out of phase cancel. If you try to correct
that, the result is far too much level at other spots. So if you have
a bad room, you have to correct the room.

For integrating the sub and correcting speaker lumpiness I use
Sonarworks. And it works.

d

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 07:26:03 -0500, wrote:

>On Sun, 14 Feb 2021 17:31:59 -0800 (PST), "Roy W. Rising" > wrote:
>
>>On Friday, February 12, 2021 at 8:53:03 AM UTC-8, John Williamson wrote:
>>> On 12/02/2021 14:44, Don Pearce wrote:
>>>
>>> > If the sub is good (not just a cinema boom box) and properly
>>> > integrated, you won't be aware that it is there - until you turn it
>>> > off and something goes missing.
>>> >
>>> This. As someone on here has in their .sig file. "If you notice the
>>> sound, it's wrong."
>>
>>Thanks, John, for the acknowledgement. My simple maxim sometimes speaks to the sales world's "Look at this!" methods. Another place where "until you turn it off" works is for evaluating sound reinforcement in smaller environs.
>>
>>~ Roy W. Rising "If you notice the *sound* it's wrong."
>>>
>>> The tricky bit is matching the whole system and the room so you don't
>>> notice it.
>
>What do you use you blend it in so the sound is seamless? An equaliaer? The sub controls?
>
>Has anyone eveer used the built-in Denon receiver room acousticss software adjustments feature? If so, how effective is it, and at what upgrade level
>do you need?
>
>I have a Yamaha YST-SW315, which seems adequate, but I've always been intriqued by the Denon claims. My old Pioneer VSX-31 has room adjustment to some
>degree, but I was never quite satisfied that their version worked well.
I used the Denon room auto-eq system setting up a NHT 7.1 system with
a HSU subwoofer. If one places the microphone correctly for your
normal sitting position, the result was quite good.

On 15/02/2021 12:26, wrote:

> What do you use you blend it in so the sound is seamless? An equaliaer? The sub controls?
>
Level controls in the main speaker amps and the sub, parametric
equalisation, room treatment such as acoustic foam at the reflection
points and bass traps. Enough soft furnishings. As I said, it's not
straightforward. Placing the sub on the mix engineer's chair and
crawling round the room until I got the best balance on the bass, then
putting the sub where my head had been was part of it. The tricky bit is
controlling room reverb while avoiding standing waves, and concepts such
as live end/ dead end come into play.

Still, once it was done, that was it. It was a pain, but it was worth
the effort.

I am about to build a control and mixing room for a recording space, and
the space available is a bit too small to be ideal, so I am using tricks
like a sloping ceiling and non-parallel walls.

The sweet spot in the last one I set up was reasonably large, but if you
were in exactly the right position, it sounded like the world's biggest
pair of headphones, but with bass you could feel.

> I have a Yamaha YST-SW315, which seems adequate, but I've always been intriqued by the Denon claims. My old Pioneer VSX-31 has room adjustment to some
> degree, but I was never quite satisfied that their version worked well.
>
The problem with all such adjustments is that they can only adjust what
leaves the speaker, not what happens to it afterwards, and getting that
right is the tricky bit.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

Most rooms have nodes that peak or dip at certain frequencies. That's normal. I happened to show up at a motel in LA once where there was an AES meeting. They put a big bin speaker on wheels and moved it around the room. They'd put it in one place and play a low tone, then either change the frequency or change the position of the speaker. You could walk around in the room and hear the nodes and that they'd moved after frequency or position had been changed.

I have a spot in my studio that I use to check low end, If the bass is woofy or pillowy there, I know I need to EQ or process the low end differently.