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Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit



 
 
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  #21  
Old December 24th 20, 06:08 PM posted to rec.audio.pro
Paul Dorman
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Default Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit

On 12/24/2020 8:13 AM, Ty Ford wrote:
>> You'd want to have a controlled test, where everything else is the
>> same: pre-amp, room, etc.
>>
>> Would I trust anyone who claims they picked out the 1 clone,
>> and the 1 real? Definitely Not!

>
> But with mics, you also need to consider the preamps. We were using Flite Three's API preamps. I use GML and Millennia Media and a Pre-production model of a pre designed by Jim Mikles. Expect the mics to sound different in other preamps.
>


See if you can guess which one is the
Real U87, WITHOUT LOOKING AT THE
ANSWER IN THE DESCRIPTION!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HbjYaBV0Fc

Again, I'd bet very, very few could pick out 1 real
out of 4 clones!
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  #22  
Old December 25th 20, 04:04 PM posted to rec.audio.pro
Scott Dorsey
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Default Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit

Paul Dorman > wrote:
>
> I'm willing to bet very, very few people could correctly pick
>out the 1 Clone, and the 1 Real, in two blind audio tests. Especially
>since there are variations even between the real U87s!


U87s are pretty consistent. There have been production changes over the
years, but even comparing the old style with the battery to the new style,
I don't hear big differences.

Very much unlike the U47, where no two of them sound anything like one
another.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
  #23  
Old December 26th 20, 11:53 PM posted to rec.audio.pro
Paul Dorman
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Posts: 56
Default Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit

On 12/25/2020 8:04 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> Paul Dorman > wrote:
>>
>> I'm willing to bet very, very few people could correctly pick
>> out the 1 Clone, and the 1 Real, in two blind audio tests. Especially
>> since there are variations even between the real U87s!

>
> U87s are pretty consistent. There have been production changes over the
> years, but even comparing the old style with the battery to the new style,
> I don't hear big differences.
>
> Very much unlike the U47, where no two of them sound anything like one
> another.
> --scott
>


Again, I'm willing to bet very, very few people could correctly pick
out the 1 Clone, and the 1 Real, in two blind audio tests.

Close your eyes, and see if you can tell when the real U87 is
used:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouB66R4QrXQ
  #24  
Old December 27th 20, 10:27 AM posted to rec.audio.pro
John Williamson
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Posts: 1,742
Default Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit

On 26/12/2020 22:53, Paul Dorman wrote:
> On 12/25/2020 8:04 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:


> Again, I'm willing to bet very, very few people could correctly pick
> out the 1 Clone, and the 1 Real, in two blind audio tests.
>
> Close your eyes, and see if you can tell when the real U87 is
> used:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouB66R4QrXQ


Between my currently poor monitoring setup and Youtube's mangling of the
audio, I couldn't tell any difference.

Mainly, I suspect the problem may have been with Youtube's audio
compression or the choice of subject matter. I will happily use Youtbe
to assess a performance, but having done the experiment, no way will I
use it to check audio or video quality on a recording.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.
  #25  
Old December 28th 20, 04:03 AM posted to rec.audio.pro
Paul Dorman
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Posts: 56
Default Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit

On 12/27/2020 2:27 AM, John Williamson wrote:
> On 26/12/2020 22:53, Paul Dorman wrote:
>> On 12/25/2020 8:04 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:

>
>> ¬*¬* Again, I'm willing to bet very, very few people could correctly pick
>> out the 1 Clone, and the 1 Real, in two blind audio tests.
>>
>> ¬*¬* Close your eyes, and see if you can tell when the real U87 is
>> used:
>>
>> ¬*¬*¬*¬* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouB66R4QrXQ

>
> Between my currently poor monitoring setup and Youtube's mangling of the
> audio, I couldn't tell any difference.
>


YouTube's audio is good enough. I have studio monitors on my
home computer, and I can easily tell if a live concert YouTube
video's audio was recorded with tape, or digital. It's like night
and day. It appears the transition from tape to digital, happened
roughly in the later 90's, or early 2000s.


> Mainly, I suspect the problem may have been with Youtube's audio
> compression or the choice of subject matter. I will happily use Youtbe
> to assess a performance, but having done the experiment, no way will I
> use it to check audio or video quality on a recording.
>


Go ahead and use the best equipment you can, at a 192kHz sample
rate, and I'll bet you still won't be able to tell Real versus a
good Clone.

There's no real good reason to be a microphone snob, especially
with MP3s into Apple earbuds!



  #26  
Old December 29th 20, 02:54 PM posted to rec.audio.pro
Paul Dorman
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Posts: 56
Default Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit

On 12/20/2020 8:26 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> Roy W. Rising > wrote:
>> On Monday, December 14, 2020 at 6:37:25 AM UTC-8, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>> In article >,
>>> Paul Dorman > wrote:
>>>> What do you folks think about this?
>>>>
>>>> https://dachmanaudio.com/da-87i-vint...er-microphone/
>>>>
>>>> It comes in both kit form, and fully assembled.
>>>>
>>>> I'd certainly love to save thousands!
>>> Everyone and his brother makes a U87 clone. Some are better than others.

>>
>> If everything else in the kit is true to the original, get a Neumann K87 capsule for less than $1K and put the Dachman capsule in inventory. Then do the blindfold test.

>
> Unfortunately there are two critical things that cannot be true to the
> original.
>
> First is the shape of the grille, which actually makes quite a difference in
> the sound. You can copy the material, but you can't copy the shape because it
> is trademarked and Neumann is very aggressive about legal action. So all the
> clones have slightly different grille shapes. The degree to which this changes
> the sound is something that nobody has systematically tested.
>
> The second is the diaphragm tensioning... the method Neumann uses today is
> a secret. The method all the people copying Neumann capsules use is one
> that Neumann abandoned some time in the sixties... and it can work well
> only if very skilled people are doing the work very carefully. The KM53
> was finally discontinued when the woman who could hand-tension those
> capsules retired and they couldn't do it properly anymore. Today, Neumann
> uses automated tensioning methods which among other things means a
> consistently good null in figure-8 mode. Nobody outside Neumann has seen
> it in operation and it has not yet been copied. (Most of the other big
> companies also use automated systems but the Neumann method, whatever it is,
> is clearly different than the ones Shure, A-T, and AKG are using.)
>
> It's easy to make U87-style microphones, but it's hard to make them well
> and I am not sure it's possible to make them exactly like Neumann.


If Neumann is so secretive, then why did they agree to do a
"How It's Made" video on the U87? This video is WAY too clean to be
from the 60's!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTZy-ThRXeY

And I don't see anything too special here, really. Assuming
they use torque wrenches for the ring that mounts the plastic
membrane, it looks like any assembler could do it.

  #27  
Old December 29th 20, 04:16 PM posted to rec.audio.pro
John Williamson
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Posts: 1,742
Default Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit

On 29/12/2020 13:54, Paul Dorman wrote:

> If Neumann is so secretive, then why did they agree to do a
> "How It's Made" video on the U87? This video is WAY too clean to be
> from the 60's!
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTZy-ThRXeY
>
> And I don't see anything too special here, really. Assuming
> they use torque wrenches for the ring that mounts the plastic
> membrane, it looks like any assembler could do it.
>

The "secret ingredients" are not even hinted at in the video. How thick
and how tense is the plastic sheet as delivered to the assembler, and
how thick is the gold plating? What type of plastic is used?

Just a couple of the variables I can see that will make a massive
difference to the end result.

The torque on the screws we saw being fastened, by the way, won't make a
massive difference to the consistency of the microphone performance as
long as they are tight enough, that is set by the consistency between
samples of the tension given to it by the ring it is mounted on during
the plating process, which in turn is governed by the heat treatment at
the initial mounting and plating stages. All the mounting ring you see
being fastened does is to lock that initial tension in place.

All the stuff you see is of minor importance compared to what they do
not show you.

Don't forget that video was passed by the legal department as not
disclosing any commercially sensitive information.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.
  #28  
Old December 29th 20, 06:25 PM posted to rec.audio.pro
Paul Dorman
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Posts: 56
Default Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit

On 12/29/2020 8:16 AM, John Williamson wrote:
> On 29/12/2020 13:54, Paul Dorman wrote:
>
>> ¬*¬*¬*¬* If Neumann is so secretive, then why did they agree to do a
>> "How It's Made" video on the U87?¬* This video is WAY too clean to be
>> from the 60's!
>>
>> ¬*¬*¬*¬*¬*¬*¬*¬*¬*¬*¬* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTZy-ThRXeY
>>
>> ¬*¬*¬*¬* And I don't see anything too special here, really.¬* Assuming
>> they use torque wrenches for the ring that mounts the plastic
>> membrane, it looks like any assembler could do it.
>>

> The "secret ingredients" are not even hinted at in the video. How thick
> and how tense is the plastic sheet as delivered to the assembler, and
> how thick is the gold plating? What type of plastic is used?
>
> Just a couple of the variables I can see that will make a massive
> difference to the end result.
>
> The torque on the screws we saw being fastened, by the way, won't make a
> massive difference to the consistency of the microphone performance as
> long as they are tight enough, that is set by the consistency between
> samples of the tension given to it by the ring it is mounted on during
> the plating process, which in turn is governed¬* by the heat treatment at
> the initial mounting and plating stages. All the mounting ring you see
> being fastened does is to lock that initial tension in place.
>
> All the stuff you see is of minor importance compared to what they do
> not show you.
>
> Don't forget that video was passed by the legal department as not
> disclosing any commercially sensitive information.
>


High quality capsule are readily available
from many suppliers:

http://www.pelusomicrophonelab.com/parts/Capsules.html

https://microphone-parts.com/product...ophone-capsule

I'd say the "secret ingredient" is marketing hype, and mic-snobbery!

Very similar to what Steinway did in the piano world!
  #29  
Old December 29th 20, 06:45 PM posted to rec.audio.pro
John Williamson
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Posts: 1,742
Default Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit

On 29/12/2020 17:25, Paul Dorman wrote:
> High quality capsule are readily available
> from many suppliers:
>
> http://www.pelusomicrophonelab.com/parts/Capsules.html
>
> https://microphone-parts.com/product...ophone-capsule
>
> I'd say the "secret ingredient" is marketing hype, and mic-snobbery!


I do not say that high quality capsules are not available elsewhere,
but, while there is undoubtedly an element of snobbery, if there are
measurable differences in either quality or consistency between brands,
then there is, by definition, a "secret ingredient".

> Very similar to what Steinway did in the piano world!


As Steinway hold 139 patents in the field of piano making, they have
many "secret ingredients".

--
Tciao for Now!

John.
  #30  
Old December 29th 20, 07:24 PM posted to rec.audio.pro
Paul Dorman
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Posts: 56
Default Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit

On 12/29/2020 10:45 AM, John Williamson wrote:
> On 29/12/2020 17:25, Paul Dorman wrote:
>> ¬*¬* High quality capsule are readily available
>> from many suppliers:
>>
>> ¬*¬*¬*¬*¬* http://www.pelusomicrophonelab.com/parts/Capsules.html
>>
>> ¬*¬*¬*¬*¬* https://microphone-parts.com/product...ophone-capsule
>>
>> ¬*¬* I'd say the "secret ingredient" is marketing hype, and mic-snobbery!

>
> I do not say that high quality capsules are not available elsewhere,
> but, while there is undoubtedly an element of snobbery, if there are
> measurable differences in either quality or consistency between brands,
> then there is, by definition, a "secret ingredient".
>


I don't believe they are noticeable by maybe 97% of people,
which means those differences don't matter.


> >¬*¬*¬* Very similar to what Steinway did in the piano world!

>
> As Steinway hold 139 patents in the field of piano making, they have
> many "secret ingredients".
>


Not really. Piano technology is well known. There are no secrets.

And I like Yamahas better!


 




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