Once upon a midnight clear....

On Jan 7, 4:55*pm, Jenn > wrote:
> In article
> >,

> Here's a clue, Howard: *Most people who like listening to their audio
> systems and to music haven't, never will, and don't care to.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Good point, at least as it relates to people like you. This is one
reason (not the only one, but at least one of the reasons) the hobby
has declined into the muddle it is today. There are two kinds of
primary embracers of the hobby as it now exists.

(1) The kind who go to Best Buy with a small budget, buy some packaged
gear, take it home and enjoy it in blissful ignorance. I actually
admire people like that.

(2) The kind who go to an audio salon with big bucks in hand and
purchase items that look good, sound maybe decent, and which were
possibly praised in some lunatic-fringe magazine report. For people
like this, audio is almost a religious experience that demands as
little rational behavior as possible.

Neither (1) nor (2) has any interest in understanding just why the
gear they have is good (or possibly not so good), with the underlying
motivation based upon blissful ignorance.The first group has many
other things on their minds than audio, and their lack of interest in
the details is actually quite normal. Sometimes blissful ignorance is
a good thing.

On the other hand, the second group continues to baffle me, because so
many of them spend large percentages of their respective net worths on
audio gear, and yet do not take the time to analyze whether or not
their cash outlays (or credit charges) are paying off in absolute
terms. No doubt, they are paying off in terms related to wishful
thinking and speculation, of course, but is that something that is
healthy for anyone? Is it normal for a person who is seriously
interested in a hobby to willfully be ignorant of some of the more
basic concepts around that hobby, or be lacking in any kind of
interest that involves knowing instead of believing? Audio is the only
hobby I know of where many of those supposedly interested in it are
not interested in digging any deeper into the details than what
speculation offers. If that is not the very definition of religion, I
do not know what else is. It is the only hobby I know of where so many
enthusiasts are utterly uninterested in basic epistemology.

Today, most so-called audio enthusiasts are paradigm know-nothings.
Perhaps 20 percent of them are on the ball and aware of the issues and
how to resolve them. The remaining 80 percent are jerks.

And for now I leave you jerks to your various tempests in teapots. I
may drop back in one of these days to again marvel that the same
people continue to rant, rave, and carp by banging on their keyboards.

Howard Ferstler

In article
>,
Ferstler > wrote:

> On Jan 7, 4:55*pm, Jenn > wrote:
> > In article
> >
> > Here's a clue, Howard: *Most people who like listening to their audio
> > systems and to music haven't, never will, and don't care to.
>
> Good point, at least as it relates to people like you.

I think that it's true for the large set of people who listen to music
through their home audio systems. I would even say that it's true for
the smaller set of people who listen "seriously" at home through systems
in which they have a fairly substantial investment.

> This is one
> reason (not the only one, but at least one of the reasons) the hobby
> has declined into the muddle it is today.

Possibly. There are obviously several reasons that the hobby "ain't
what it used to be". The economy, expanded opportunities for home
entertainment, some stupid voodoo products that are a waste of money,
and of course, the iPod generation demanding instant music on the go,
very often stolen by illegal downloading.


> And for now I leave you jerks

For this third time this morning..

On Jan 7, 4:47*pm, Ferstler > wrote:
> On Jan 7, 4:11*pm, MiNe 109 * > wrote:
>
>
>
> > In article
> > >,
>
> > *Ferstler > wrote:
> > > On Dec 24 2009, 5:35*pm, MiNe 109 * >
> > > wrote:
> > > > In article
> > > > >,
> > > > *John Atkinson > wrote:
>
> > > > > On Dec 24, 1:28*pm, George M. Middius >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > 'Twas the night before Kroodown, and all 'round Goose Puke...
>
> > > > > An oldie but goldie, George. But the foe seems long gone,
> > > > > if not into that dark night, at least somewhere else.
>
> > > > > But Harold Ferstler has reemerged, writing equipment
> > > > > reports for AudioXpress under the title "Reliable Reviews."
>
> > > > He's beating the same old drum, with ossified thoughts about level
> > > > matching, pink noise and even that Villchur live-vs-recorded string
> > > > quartet demo.
>
> > > > "Reliable." Gotta give him that!
>
> > > > Stephen
>
> > > Yo, Stephen. Interesting to see that after me being away for months
> > > and months you still have not found anything better to do with your
> > > life than make smart-assed remarks about me on RAO. Yeah, I am
> > > reliable, and I am also correct.
>
> > I made a bunch of other comments that hardly mentioned you at all.
>
> > > It is interesting that you found a relatively straightforward article
> > > on setting up speaker levels for intelligent comparison work so "old
> > > drum" in concept. How do you compare speakers, bucko? Do you bother to
> > > level match at all, or do you just guesstimate and then revel in your
> > > conclusions?
>
> > > As for the Villchur demos, well, you have not a clue what you are
> > > talking about.
>
> > That would be a failure of your powers of description if you really
> > think so.
>
> > Stephen- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> You are a paradigm of the modern audio expert and enthusiast. I'll bet
> you have never done a refined comparison between speakers or between
> amps in your life.
>
> Howard Ferstler


I did one, that is one more than you did

On Jan 24, 2:30*am, olgeezer > wrote:
> On Jan 7, 1:55*pm, Jenn > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > In article
> > >,
>
> > *Ferstler > wrote:
> > > On Jan 7, 4:11*pm, MiNe 109 * > wrote:
> > > > In article
> > > > >,
>
> > > > *Ferstler > wrote:
> > > > > On Dec 24 2009, 5:35*pm, MiNe 109 * >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > In article
> > > > > > >,
> > > > > > *John Atkinson > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > On Dec 24, 1:28*pm, George M. Middius >
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > 'Twas the night before Kroodown, and all 'round Goose Puke....
>
> > > > > > > An oldie but goldie, George. But the foe seems long gone,
> > > > > > > if not into that dark night, at least somewhere else.
>
> > > > > > > But Harold Ferstler has reemerged, writing equipment
> > > > > > > reports for AudioXpress under the title "Reliable Reviews."
>
> > > > > > He's beating the same old drum, with ossified thoughts about level
> > > > > > matching, pink noise and even that Villchur live-vs-recorded string
> > > > > > quartet demo.
>
> > > > > > "Reliable." Gotta give him that!
>
> > > > > > Stephen
>
> > > > > Yo, Stephen. Interesting to see that after me being away for months
> > > > > and months you still have not found anything better to do with your
> > > > > life than make smart-assed remarks about me on RAO. Yeah, I am
> > > > > reliable, and I am also correct.
>
> > > > I made a bunch of other comments that hardly mentioned you at all.
>
> > > > > It is interesting that you found a relatively straightforward article
> > > > > on setting up speaker levels for intelligent comparison work so "old
> > > > > drum" in concept. How do you compare speakers, bucko? Do you bother to
> > > > > level match at all, or do you just guesstimate and then revel in your
> > > > > conclusions?
>
> > > > > As for the Villchur demos, well, you have not a clue what you are
> > > > > talking about.
>
> > > > That would be a failure of your powers of description if you really
> > > > think so.
>
> > > > Stephen- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > You are a paradigm of the modern audio expert and enthusiast. I'll bet
> > > you have never done a refined comparison between speakers or between
> > > amps in your life.
>
> > Here's a clue, Howard: *Most people who like listening to their audio
> > systems and to music haven't, never will, and don't care to.
>
> It is fortunate that the state of audio electronics is such that it
> hardly matters which amp one buys. *Loudspeakers are another subject
> altogether and in most instances differences are obvious. *They are
> and will continue to be the biggest flaw in any audio system.

The "audio system" I see in most people's homes these days consists of
an iPod and a docking station. Most people also do not listen to music
on their home theaters. They watch movies.

The majority of those who actually do have and enjoy audio systems get
ridiculed by those who can't afford them for not running scientific
tests to prove that they really like what they like.

Isn't that a stupid situation?

In article
>,
"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!" > wrote:

> The "audio system" I see in most people's homes these days consists of
> an iPod and a docking station.

One of our contributors recently said (on another forum) that his mp3
player and Sony MDR-EX85 earbuds "provides sound competetive with any
hi-end system the industry can offer." That's an interesting statement,
I think.

In article
>,
ScottW > wrote:

> On Jan 24, 11:03*am, Jenn > wrote:
> > In article
> > >,
> > *"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!" > wrote:
> >
> > > The "audio system" I see in most people's homes these days consists of
> > > an iPod and a docking station.
> >
> > One of our contributors recently said (on another forum) that his mp3
> > player and Sony MDR-EX85 earbuds "provides sound competetive with any
> > hi-end system the industry can offer." *That's an interesting statement,
> > I think.
>
> The cost of a soundstage between your ears and one recreated in a
> room
> has always been orders of magnitude different in cost.
> Most the current technical challenges of high end sound in a listening
> room become
> moot with earbuds/headphones.

Unless, of course:
1. You don't want to listen with headphones
2. You are concerned with other aspects of home audio than just
soundstage.

>
> Power requirements for live SPL levels are a small fraction of those
> required
> for a room. Room interactions are eliminated.
> Multi-driver crossovers....gone.
> Full range low distortion drivers from subsonic to supersonic
> frequencies, no problem.

Really? You can get true bass with earbuds?

>
> Only drawback is the discomfort of headphones/earbuds and the sound
> field between the ears.
> Every other objective measure of performance can be relatively cheaply
> exceeded (unless you really want to feel the bass as well as hear it)
> with
> a personal listening system over the typical high end system.
>
> Nothing really new here. The "high-end" doesn't offer performance
> improvement to many youngsters who grow up accustomed to the drawbacks
> of personal listening devices.
> From their perspective a typical box speaker system can't give them
> the sound quality they already have at a fraction of the cost.

I would agree with that, given what their experience is of a "typical
box speaker."

On Jan 24, 1:52*pm, ScottW > wrote:

> Only drawback is the discomfort of headphones/earbuds and the sound
> field between the ears.
> Every other objective measure of performance can be relatively cheaply
> exceeded (unless you really want to feel the bass as well as hear it)
> with
> a personal listening system over the typical high end system.

Do you feel anything when you see a live performance? I know I do.

On Jan 25, 3:15*pm, ScottW > wrote:
> On Jan 24, 10:38*pm, Jenn > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > In article
> > >,
>
> > *ScottW > wrote:
> > > On Jan 24, 11:03*am, Jenn > wrote:
> > > > In article
> > > > >,
> > > > *"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!" > wrote:
>
> > > > > The "audio system" I see in most people's homes these days consists of
> > > > > an iPod and a docking station.
>
> > > > One of our contributors recently said (on another forum) that his mp3
> > > > player and Sony MDR-EX85 earbuds "provides sound competetive with any
> > > > hi-end system the industry can offer." *That's an interesting statement,
> > > > I think.
>
> > > *The cost of a soundstage between your ears and one recreated in a
> > > room
> > > has always been orders of magnitude different in cost.
> > > Most the current technical challenges of high end sound in a listening
> > > room become
> > > moot with earbuds/headphones.
>
> > Unless, of course:
> > 1. *You don't want to listen with headphones
>
> * Then you'll have to pay lots more.
>
> > 2. *You are concerned with other aspects of home audio than just
> > soundstage.
>
> *You misinterpret. *Every audio reproduction (re)creates a soundstage..
> The quality aspects of that soundstage in personal listening systems
> typically exceed in almost any measure you can provide the quality of
> sound measured from speakers.
> FR (both flatness and range), distortion, dynamic range, peak SPL,
> phase errors etc etc.
>
>
>
> > > Power requirements for live SPL levels are a small fraction of those
> > > required
> > > for a room. Room interactions are eliminated.
> > > Multi-driver crossovers....gone.
> > > Full range low distortion drivers from subsonic to supersonic
> > > frequencies, no problem.
>
> > Really? *You can get true bass with earbuds?
>
> *I dont' know what "true" bass means to you. *My earbuds provide clear
> solid output below my low hearing limit. *They won't shake my gut if
> that's "true bass" (which more often than not is a room mode rather
> than reproduction of a musical event) but they will reproduce clearly
> and effortlessly the organ on Rutter's Requiem.
> I've read some of those notes are sub 20 hz.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > > Only drawback is the discomfort of headphones/earbuds and the sound
> > > field between the ears.
> > > Every other objective measure of performance can be relatively cheaply
> > > exceeded (unless you really want to feel the bass as well as hear it)
> > > with
> > > a personal listening system over the typical high end system.
>
> > > Nothing really new here. The "high-end" doesn't offer performance
> > > improvement to many youngsters who grow up accustomed to the drawbacks
> > > of personal listening devices.
> > > From their perspective a typical box speaker system can't give them
> > > the sound quality they already have at a fraction of the cost.
>
> > I would agree with that, given what their experience is of a "typical
> > box speaker."
>
> * Go buy the Sansa clip or any other non-defective player (some
> earlier Sansa efforts were defective in design) and some decent
> earbuds. You might be surprised how exceptionally good the sound
> really is and you don't have to spend a lot to get it. *As I said...
> $100 will do.
>
> My only real point is that claiming that kids today aren't exposed to
> hi-fidelity reproduction of music because they haven't been exposed to
> "high-end" equipment
> is BS. * Most are experiencing music reproduction of far higher
> fidelity than you seem to be aware of and is perhaps higher fidelity
> than what you have experienced.

LoL.

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