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#1
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Sabine feedback exterminator 1802 vs 2020
What's the difference between these two units?
Also, does the 1020 allow a stereo output? I've looked around & it seems like the 1802 is an older unit. Not sure what's better with newer ones. Any advice is appreciated! Cheers, MM |
#2
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Sabine feedback exterminator 1802 vs 2020
In article ,
megalomando wrote: What's the difference between these two units? Also, does the 1020 allow a stereo output? I've looked around & it seems like the 1802 is an older unit. Not sure what's better with newer ones. Any advice is appreciated! Cheers, MM I have used MANY of the sabines , from the very first ones through the current newest models they all are very application specific they are not general cure alls for feedback could you tell us a bit about what you hope the unit will do for you? I can then guide you as to if the unit is able to do what your thinking it will do George |
#3
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Sabine feedback exterminator 1802 vs 2020
On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 03:04:29 GMT, George
wrote: In article , megalomando wrote: What's the difference between these two units? Also, does the 1020 allow a stereo output? I've looked around & it seems like the 1802 is an older unit. Not sure what's better with newer ones. Any advice is appreciated! Cheers, MM I have used MANY of the sabines , from the very first ones through the current newest models they all are very application specific they are not general cure alls for feedback could you tell us a bit about what you hope the unit will do for you? I can then guide you as to if the unit is able to do what your thinking it will do George Hi, My mics are a KM84 Moded selected & modified by Klaus Heyne for smaller stringed instruments and I have a TLM-103 for vocals. Amplification is via the internal amplifiers in the the Mackie 450's (300W to bass & 100W to tweeter; 400W in each x 2 = 800W in all). I currently have a Sabine SM820 (have two SM820s & two SL820s) Solo which I use for vocal. Mostly I have been using a transducer on the instruments and there is no feedback to deal with. Now I need to use the vocal mic and since I will be having my feedback problems again, I may as well use the KM84 again for the instrument. That means two lines with mics instead of just the one. Without the sabineI find that I get marvelous feedback at almost all settings when it's loud enough to be heard adequately in the listening area. With the Sabine I use currently I can say the sound is excellent in fact it's stellar. I have no compressor as I really have developed no appreciation for artificial sounds. I have no parametric EQ. I do have an Alesis nanoverb for a small amount of reverb but I use it very little as it's a lousy reverb. As far as emphasizing bass or treble, I leave things pretty much neutral as the mics I'm using don't ask for much balance & I & my peers in the audience like the way they sound. I find that using these mics seems to generate a lot of feedback & the solo does a great job of knocking those frequencies out and saves me a lot of spinning wheels trying to deal with a ringing or wolf when I'm in the middle of a quiet passage. Using my pick-up-the-world transducer eliminates my need for dealing with feedback. Going back to the microphones shows me why I bought the Sabines in the first place. Since I don't have a soundman to deal with reality, I have to deal with it before it starts. As to better amplification, I'm sure there's a lot better than the Mackies but after looking at every available option to me they sounded far better than anything else I found anywhere remotely near their price range. I won't be exchanging them for anything else so I will have to be satisfied with them. It will be easier for me to have a rack mounted unit than to have two of the solos & the wall warts. My goal is to not have feedback problems and to have the fastest assembly/dis-assembly possible when I gig. I'd like to have a stereo separation when desired so a single in & out isn't my ideal. I have a 1402 VLZ Pro & no graphic or parametric. Since I play where people are moving freely in front of the stage, I can't set it for a room & let it go as in a concert hall. Hope this helps. SO the 1802 vs 2020 vs the 1020 vs two SM820s? Thanks Gary |
#4
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Sabine feedback exterminator 1802 vs 2020
Hope this helps. SO the 1802 vs 2020 vs the 1020 vs two SM820s? Thanks Gary Looking at your signal chain I would "Guess" you should have no trouble getting all the volume you need without a feedback problem, using the mics But you clearly say you do have feedback issues use the 2020 as the most bang for the buck, though my Sabine rep claims to have the same logic in all these but only set about 3 or 4 filters then lock it down NO roaming filters once you have about 4 filters in place you have achieve the best you can do with one of these, beyond this , the audible effect of too much eq will start to gouge your sound Roaming filters depend on feedback(or long musically sustained notes/or harmonics) to happen the device can not distinguish one from the other and once 3 or 4 filters are set you systems is pretty much maxed up any more gain will cause several frequiecs to all start ringing at about the same time, the sabine will kill feedback when set up properly It will not maintain stability in a too loud rig George |
#6
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Sabine feedback exterminator 1802 vs 2020
hello Mike,
My mics are a KM84 Moded selected & modified by Klaus Heyne for smaller stringed instruments and I have a TLM-103 for vocals. Amplification is via the internal amplifiers in the the Mackie 450's Mostly I have been using a transducer on the instruments and there is no feedback to deal with. Now I need to use the vocal mic and since I will be having my feedback problems again, I may as well use the KM84 again for the instrument. That means two lines with mics instead of just the one. Without the sabineI find that I get marvelous feedback at almost all settings when it's loud enough to be heard adequately in the listening area. I know this isn't what you want to hear, but there are other things that you should be doing to reduce the potential for feedback before you throw filters at it. The Sabine units work well, but they will only make the best of a bad situation. It's better to make the system better - and by "system" I don't just mean the microphones, micer, and speakers, but the room and the source too. The room I have no control over. I get hired, I show up, they tell me where to play and the best I can do is select the best speaker placement I can find. I have a gut feeling that the next thing you're going to say is that you have no choice but to place the speakers BEHIND you. That's a perfect setup for feedback - speakers pointing toward microphones. It's also absurd that you have no choice in this matter. If this is the situation, first fix it. No, that's thankfully never happened yet. Sometimes the speakers are to the side but never behind me. Are you using monitors? That's another feedback generator, but equalization of the monitors plus proper placement will go a long way toward reducing feedback potential. Perhaps the place for your Sabine gadget is in the monitor path rather than the house signal path if your speakers are actually in a reasonable place. No monitors. As I play solo what I can hear isn't overshadowed by something else. Fortunately for me I don't have the luxury of house speakers. When those times come that there are house monitors I let the house sound man do the gut work. All I do is diddle & get paid for it. Finally, mic technique is really important. The more direct signal from the source that goes into the mic, the more volume you can get before there's enough gain so that signal from other than the source (which can cause feedback) gets amplified sufficiently. It's easy to learn to sing very close to a vocal mic, but it's not so easy (nor does it usually sound very good) to get an acoustic instrument really close to a mic. Not only that, but you're going to move, and turning a guitar a few degrees can change reflections so that sound from the speakers that was blocked by the guitar or reflected away from the mics is not reflected toward the mics. Yes, so true. I used the transducer for a long time because I had 100% control over the amplification. Since I'm now using guitar again & vocals, all recent bets are off & I'm back to feedback experiences as the mics are coming back into play. Lastly, just how loud are you running things? Feedback is a result of too much gain, which is usually what's required to get loud enough. Perhaps a quieter venue would solve all your problems. I'm an acoustic freak, I don't thrive on volume. I'd love to be playing in a small chamber room with attentive listeners. I keep the volums low. I don't recall having the Mackies at 60% of their analog volume control maximum, ever. The strangest thing was when I was outside, with a wall 30 feet in front of me & me facing the wall. There was a very high wall 100 feet behind me. The speakers were six feet in front of me facing tangental to the walls and there were no walls for 300 feet on either side & I was getting feedback like crazy at very low volumes. I could hear normal conversations from people 10 feet from the speakers & directly in the speakers path yet I was getting wolfs & ringings like crazy. When I turned off the Sabine Solo I sounded like Hendrix. Without the solo I couldn't get loud enough to be appreciated 50 feet away. It's maddening. I had the problem with EV condensers, a RE-10 I brought in for grins and the Neumann's seem to pick up fly farts at 20 feet and are even worse for feedback. The 103's are tougher to tame than the KM84. Hope this offers another bit of helpful info for you to help me out. Thanks for the interest. P.S. I'm asking another question about mic pre's & I'd appreciate your input in this too if you wouldn't mind. Cheers, MM |
#7
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Sabine feedback exterminator 1802 vs 2020
"megalomando" wrote in message ... hello Mike, Feedback is not a mysterious demon that appears for no reason feedback occurs when the amplified sound hits its source transducer at equal to or greater than the target sound, there are (about)8ways to deal with feedback less gain on the mic move the mic closer to the source move(point) the speakers farther away from the source use a (more) directional mic use(more) directional speakers turn down the speakers selectivly reduce hot points with eq at the mic selectivly reduce hot points with eq at the speakers but they all resolve down to LESS amplified sound at the mic accomplish this and you will not have feedback you will not cheat the laws of physics and there is a point where it will feedback regardless of what you do(short of turning it off) for info on feedback control and suppresion check out the tutorials at www.rane.com (rane notes) and www.prosoundweb.com george --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.551 / Virus Database: 343 - Release Date: 12/11/2003 |
#8
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Sabine feedback exterminator 1802 vs 2020
megalomando wrote:
It's maddening. I had the problem with EV condensers, a RE-10 I brought in for grins and the Neumann's seem to pick up fly farts at 20 feet and are even worse for feedback. The 103's are tougher to tame than the KM84. None of these mikes are really designed for PA work. The 103 is very weird off-axis, and anything that is peaky off-axis is going to have feedback trouble. You want to be using mikes that are as tight as possible, and have as narrow a pattern as possible. The RE-10s probably are the closest you've got out of that list. Try a Sennhesier 441 just for grins. You'll find the difference is like night and day. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#9
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Sabine feedback exterminator 1802 vs 2020
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