hi everyone, happy new year

i am seeking advice on the best turntable/arm/cartridge (mm)/phono amp to
maximise the
music and minimise all kinds of surface noise - i understand some
combinations of cartridge/arm/turntable show up noise less than others?

my max budget (less is better) is £1000 total either new or s/h

i am replacing a thorens td150mk2 sme 3009 ii (detachable headshell not
improved) and ortofon om20 plus cheap phono box phono amp

any help would be valued



thanks

david

david weale wrote:
hi everyone, happy new year

i am seeking advice on the best turntable/arm/cartridge (mm)/phono amp to
maximise the
music and minimise all kinds of surface noise - i understand some
combinations of cartridge/arm/turntable show up noise less than others?

The point of good vinyl playback equipment is to reveal what's
there. Unfortunately, this also includes surface noise. The
best way to attack your surface noise problem is with a combination
of a good record cleaning machine and a good surface treatment.
I have a VPI 16.5 record cleaning machine I like. As for
surface treatments, I've had good luck with LAST record preservative.
Point your web browser at:

http://www.lastfactory.com/

I absolutely guarantee you that using a record cleaning machine
with LAST will make an enormous improvement in your record
listening. Much more than changing turntables, though upgrading
is always fun.

Your current setup will give you some pretty good sound, though
it certainly can be improved upon. Buy the record cleaning
machine and LAST first, then consider upgrades to your record
playback equipment.

Russ

david weale wrote:

hi everyone, happy new year

i am seeking advice on the best turntable/arm/cartridge (mm)/phono amp
to maximise the
music and minimise all kinds of surface noise - i understand some
combinations of cartridge/arm/turntable show up noise less than others?

There are many variables. The key, IMO, is keeping the stylus firmly in
the groove with minimal extraneous oscillations. Very hard to do
cheaply. Isolation of the mechanism from external vibrations is one
goal; another related goal is to minimize vinyl/stylus/arm resonances
not related to the signal.

Also, listening room and listening habits must be decided upon. If you
listen to low level chamber music on headphones your isolation
requirements will be different than listening to hip-hop through PA
speakers.

I always appreciated the brute-force mass approach to taming resonances,
myself. Many years ago I once saw an industrial looking machine from a
Japanese company called Micro (strange name for this thing due to its
sheer presence). The device had a huge stainless steel platter that
must have weighed in at 40 or 50 pounds. The platter sucked down the
record using a vacuum device, and the motor was decoupled from the
platter assembly. I think the entire package was about 150 pounds.

I've always been skeptical of some of the flimsy budget decks sold, but
who knows? I know this is heresy amongst the high-end crowd, but if I
were to buy another turntable I think I'd consider a Technics SL-1200.
You can get one for under 500 dollars, and it appears much more
substantial than anything out there near the price. The only thing it
is missing is 78 rpm, but I recently came across an outfit that actually
supplies a mod for this.

I'd be interested in reading a review of this machine against some
others, but I think that a double blind test for turntables would pose
more difficulty than with electronics, since rapid switching might not
be easy to work out. The problem with turntable reviews (at least the
ones I remember since I no longer regularly read TAS or Stereophile) is
that they are conducted like cable reviews. Nothing is ever controlled
and no one is held to any standards of accountability. [If I am
incorrect in this I offer apologies in advance to cover my ignorance.]
The old Audio magazine used to sometimes have very good turntable
reviews using measurements of acoustic feedback, etc, along with
listening tests. I wish I could remember the reviewers name who
conducted them. Was it Bert White? Anyhow, the few remaining mags that
use controlled tests are probably not interested in vinyl, anymore.

michael

"Russ Button" wrote in message
...
david weale wrote:
hi everyone, happy new year

i am seeking advice on the best turntable/arm/cartridge (mm)/phono amp
to
maximise the
music and minimise all kinds of surface noise - i understand some
combinations of cartridge/arm/turntable show up noise less than others?

The point of good vinyl playback equipment is to reveal what's
there. Unfortunately, this also includes surface noise. The
best way to attack your surface noise problem is with a combination
of a good record cleaning machine and a good surface treatment.
I have a VPI 16.5 record cleaning machine I like. As for
surface treatments, I've had good luck with LAST record preservative.
Point your web browser at:

http://www.lastfactory.com/

I absolutely guarantee you that using a record cleaning machine
with LAST will make an enormous improvement in your record
listening. Much more than changing turntables, though upgrading
is always fun.

Your current setup will give you some pretty good sound, though
it certainly can be improved upon. Buy the record cleaning
machine and LAST first, then consider upgrades to your record
playback equipment.

Russ

I can only second this, loud and clear. I have been cleaning my records
since the beginning, and using Last record preservative since it came out.
The result is reduced noise and distortion, and a sound that much of the
time is indistinguishable at normal listening levels from CD as far as
silence is concerned. Moreover, LAST really does seem to help foreclose
wear; some of my records from the 60's and early 70's sound remarkably
"new", despite frequent use.

Russ Button wrote:

david weale wrote:
hi everyone, happy new year

i am seeking advice on the best turntable/arm/cartridge (mm)/phono amp to
maximise the
music and minimise all kinds of surface noise - i understand some
combinations of cartridge/arm/turntable show up noise less than others?

The point of good vinyl playback equipment is to reveal what's
there. Unfortunately, this also includes surface noise. The
best way to attack your surface noise problem is with a combination
of a good record cleaning machine and a good surface treatment.
I have a VPI 16.5 record cleaning machine I like. As for
surface treatments, I've had good luck with LAST record preservative.
Point your web browser at:

http://www.lastfactory.com/

I absolutely guarantee you that using a record cleaning machine
with LAST will make an enormous improvement in your record
listening. Much more than changing turntables, though upgrading
is always fun.

Your current setup will give you some pretty good sound, though
it certainly can be improved upon. Buy the record cleaning
machine and LAST first, then consider upgrades to your record
playback equipment.

Russ



I would concur with the recommendation of investing in a record cleaning
machine. I've had my VPI 16.5 for over 10 years, and it does an excellent job,
with no maintenance needs other than an occasional replacement of the suction
wand supplied with the machine.

However, the LAST record preservative, while not harmuful in my experience, is
not IMHO, the last word in cleaning. For that I'd recommend using the Disc
Doctor brushes and cleaning fluid, in combination with a RCM like the 16.5.
You can learn about the Disc Doctor products, which are really excellent (and
I've tried other brushes and fluids with the 16.5, inclujding LAST's own record
cleaning liquids) at the following URL:

www.discdoc.com

While the post to which I'm responding doesn';t specify what
turntable/arm/cartridge you're using, I would recommend you seriously consider
either getting a turntable with a clamp, or if the brand you have does not come
with one, you purchase an aftermarket clamp. Clamping can also help to reduce
surface noise.

Depending on your budget, I'd recommend one of the excellent VPI models, with
one of their tonearms, and perhaps a Grado cartridge. All three items come in
a broad range of prices, and all represent excellent value for the money. If
possible, I'd try and include one of the wooden-bodied Grado cartridges from
their Refernce or Statement series.

Good luck.

Bruce J. Richman

"Bruce J. Richman" wrote in message
...
) at the following URL:

www.discdoc.com


A *miracle* record cleaner; enough said should you believe in miracles, I'd
be more interested into looking for a miracle to restore my hearing to what
it was like 50 years ago. It would be worthwhile to get that record cleaner
into an analytical chemistry lab and transform that miracle into ordinary
everyday household words in order to purchase it from CVS.

The reviewer who you are probably thinking of is Edward E. Long.

Klaus

michael wrote:
The old Audio magazine used to sometimes have very good turntable
reviews using measurements of acoustic feedback, etc, along with
listening tests. I wish I could remember the reviewers name who
conducted them. Was it Bert White? Anyhow, the few remaining mags
that
use controlled tests are probably not interested in vinyl, anymore.

Here's whay I found on surface noise :

Factors responsible for surface noise are

1. Surface roughness : filler (tends further to chip off. leaving holes
in the groove wall)
2. Welding and shearing of asperities (roughness, harshness)
3. The associated plastic deformation : microscale intermittency of
plastic flow : volumetric version of stick slip behaviour, slipping of
molecular aggregates from one position of equilibrium with their
neighbours to another, discontinuous motion on microscale.
4. Thermal agitation of cutting stylus
5. Lead screw vibration transmitted to cutting head
6. Vibration of stylus induced by frictional drag, stick slip motion
during sliding friction : each asperity (roughness) will first stick,
then progressively experience elastic deformation in shear produced by
the gross sliding motion, until finally the
shear stress becomes high enough to produce a slip either by rupturing
the asperity or by causing the adhering surfaces to separate.

Surface noise sources as mentioned under 1. 5. are physically present
in the groove, 4 and 5 are cut into the groove during cutting the
master lacquer. The cartridge makes no difference between audio and
such noise signals. The slip stick motion as described under 6.,
however, should not be transduced into output voltage. This depends on
the quality of cartridge
design.


[1] Barlow : Limiting factors in gramophone reproduction, Wireless
World, 1957, vol.63, p.228
[2] Hunt : On stylus wear and surface noise in phonograph playback
systems, JAES, 1955, Jan., p.2

To add : In general, the tape used during recording in studio or
concert hall is not used as source for cutting the master lacquer. The
reason is that the length of tape and what can be put on a record's
side have to be the same. Therefore, copies of 1st, 2nd or even 3rd
generation are used for the cutting process. Each analog tape copy adds
some 3 5 dB noise which, of
course, can be found back on the record.

LP wear of course can cause noise : In a study performed by Discwasher
in 1980 it has been found that the quality of the vinyl plays an
important role as far as sound quality is
concerned. In particular the filler material used is of great
importance, it seems that it has tendency to split off. Dust in the
groove is pushed and pounded into the groove wall, scouring and gouging
the wall.



Klaus