I was going to go out and buy an IPOD for playing music during long
drives, then caught up with how small and light notebook computers
have become and am considering using a notebook instead (need a new
computer anyway). For example, a new IBM is under 3 lbs. and has
various mechanisms to protect the hard drive from shock.

I was wondering if anyone had experience with this and how well the
unit might work over bumpy roads, etc?

thanks in advance, Jon

I have an IBM T40 laptop and use it all the time for MP3s and DVDs. Right
now Im using a wireless FM modulator and its OK... not great, but good
enough for non critical application. Best thing about it is I can just shut
the screen whenever I see a cop. I place it on the passenger seat, and
sometimes on the passenger floor. Only been doing it for a month and so far
have not had any HD crashes. I think the DVD player uses the video card as
a buffer, no problems skipping with mine. I have a Behringer field mic and
use it all the time as an RTA... pic here...

http://images.cardomain.com/member_i...401268_53_full
..jpg

Garrett

"Jon" wrote in message
m...
I was going to go out and buy an IPOD for playing music during long
drives, then caught up with how small and light notebook computers
have become and am considering using a notebook instead (need a new
computer anyway). For example, a new IBM is under 3 lbs. and has
various mechanisms to protect the hard drive from shock.

I was wondering if anyone had experience with this and how well the
unit might work over bumpy roads, etc?

thanks in advance, Jon

first of all IPODs are over priced you can do much better with a Creative
Nomad. Sounds better as well.....Then is a $2000 laptop really an
alternative to a $200 jukebox.....batteries on Laptops last what 4 hours at
most....jukeboxes 8-15. Plus the sound quality of laptops are crap...they
just don't put much into the device as that is not it's main purpose. The
sound quality of a jukebox is far and above that of a laptop. You would
likely have to purchase a separate sound card for the laptop...cost around
$200 for a good one. Then you have to take into account boot times and the
like. A jukebox boots and stats playing in about 8 seconds.....a laptop at
best is what 30-60??? Plus laptops are harder to hide if you run into a
store...and more of a target for theft. A jukebox fits in your pocket with
ease and in your glove box/arm rest even easier. Both systems will be
limited to the sound quality of the FM modulator...the wireless ones suck
for the most part...I use a wired one that sounds very good to me.

I can almost call myself an expert in the field because I have tried
both...3 different laptops as well....and the jukebox is FAR and AWAY easier
and more adaptable. Plus clipping a laptop to your hip and walking the mall
or trails or whatever is really awkward. The ONLY gain to using a laptop
over a jukebox is cross fading.

Now a dedicated CARPUTER under your seat running linix is another
solution....but then not portable outside of the car.






"Jon" wrote in message
m...
I was going to go out and buy an IPOD for playing music during long
drives, then caught up with how small and light notebook computers
have become and am considering using a notebook instead (need a new
computer anyway). For example, a new IBM is under 3 lbs. and has
various mechanisms to protect the hard drive from shock.

I was wondering if anyone had experience with this and how well the
unit might work over bumpy roads, etc?

thanks in advance, Jon

Nothin wrong with that I been usin a notebook computer in the
truck since about 96 or so... no HD problems ever.

As far as the cops go, most states have an exemption for screens
if they do navigation.... So get you some maps for the screen and
if a cop gives you **** flip it over tot he map and you should be good...



sanitarium wrote:

I have an IBM T40 laptop and use it all the time for MP3s and DVDs. Right
now Im using a wireless FM modulator and its OK... not great, but good
enough for non critical application. Best thing about it is I can just shut
the screen whenever I see a cop. I place it on the passenger seat, and
sometimes on the passenger floor. Only been doing it for a month and so far
have not had any HD crashes. I think the DVD player uses the video card as
a buffer, no problems skipping with mine. I have a Behringer field mic and
use it all the time as an RTA... pic here...

http://images.cardomain.com/member_i...401268_53_full
.jpg

Garrett

"Jon" wrote in message
m...
I was going to go out and buy an IPOD for playing music during long
drives, then caught up with how small and light notebook computers
have become and am considering using a notebook instead (need a new
computer anyway). For example, a new IBM is under 3 lbs. and has
various mechanisms to protect the hard drive from shock.

I was wondering if anyone had experience with this and how well the
unit might work over bumpy roads, etc?

thanks in advance, Jon

Nevermind the notebook. Grab a mini-ITX computer instead! They're the same
size, suck up similar power, don't get as hot, are cheaper, and allow PCI
expansion and full size desktop computer hard drives. Most of them also
have analog video outputs so you can run LCD displays with them, and
audio/video/usb/serial/etc.

I bought mine for under $200 new online. It's a 1 Ghz Celeron and runs off
12 volts. Just had to add memory and a hard drive. Do an ebay search for
"ITX" in the computer section.

Oh yeah, I'm running Windows 98 SE on it (better software/hardware
compatibility than Linux), winamp with the "album list" plugin for easy
navigation, Delorme GPS, a USB wireless adapter so I can transfer files to
it from my apartment, and USB FM radio. I also decided to spend the extra
money and get a 7" VGA touchscreen, but in my last car I just used a run of
the mill 5" LCD screen.

PS - I'm currently selling the LCD screen and a hard drive shock absorber if
you're interested. Shoot me an email if you want any advice.

--
Mark
remove "remove" and "spam" to reply

"Jon" wrote in message
m...
I was going to go out and buy an IPOD for playing music during long
drives, then caught up with how small and light notebook computers
have become and am considering using a notebook instead (need a new
computer anyway). For example, a new IBM is under 3 lbs. and has
various mechanisms to protect the hard drive from shock.

I was wondering if anyone had experience with this and how well the
unit might work over bumpy roads, etc?

thanks in advance, Jon

Didn't know that... I run my GPS through the laptop as well... So I'm
cover'd I guess.

Garrett


"Eddie Runner" wrote in message
...
Nothin wrong with that I been usin a notebook computer in the
truck since about 96 or so... no HD problems ever.

As far as the cops go, most states have an exemption for screens
if they do navigation.... So get you some maps for the screen and
if a cop gives you **** flip it over tot he map and you should be good...



sanitarium wrote:

I have an IBM T40 laptop and use it all the time for MP3s and DVDs.
Right
now Im using a wireless FM modulator and its OK... not great, but good
enough for non critical application. Best thing about it is I can just
shut
the screen whenever I see a cop. I place it on the passenger seat, and
sometimes on the passenger floor. Only been doing it for a month and so
far
have not had any HD crashes. I think the DVD player uses the video card
as
a buffer, no problems skipping with mine. I have a Behringer field mic
and
use it all the time as an RTA... pic here...


http://images.cardomain.com/member_i...401268_53_full
.jpg

Garrett

"Jon" wrote in message
m...
I was going to go out and buy an IPOD for playing music during long
drives, then caught up with how small and light notebook computers
have become and am considering using a notebook instead (need a new
computer anyway). For example, a new IBM is under 3 lbs. and has
various mechanisms to protect the hard drive from shock.

I was wondering if anyone had experience with this and how well the
unit might work over bumpy roads, etc?

thanks in advance, Jon

MZ wrote:

Oh yeah, I'm running Windows 98 SE on it (better software/hardware
compatibility than Linux), winamp with the "album list" plugin for easy

Some people just hate MS so they just have to run linux. Then when you want
to load some software you buy at best buy you're SOL. Since you have a 1ghz
proc I'd run XP but that's just personal pref.

The mini-itx is def. a way to go. Or you can pickup a decent laptop for
$500-$600 used, with a 14 or 15 inch screen, detach the screen and it costs
you about the same as buying pc and screen sep. but you got a bigass screen!
I have bought several T2x (T21, T22, T23) IBM thinkpads (which were top of
the line few years back) with 800 or 900mhz P3 chips and it fits under your
seat (like 2inch thick or less), you can buy a NATIVE car charger for it
that. They came with 20gb hard drives which is usually enough.

Oh not to mention the T series comes with a S-VIDEO out natively in case you
have s-video ready screen.

The mini-itx does not offer much expansion just like the laptop. Usually you
get one pci slot, so a laptop with two pcmcia slots can actually give you
more expansion and you can always upgrade the hard drive in a laptop as well
as go with an external usb 2.0 drive for cheap. Today with usb 2.0 you can
upgrade just about anything externally.

Another cool thing about either option is wi-fi. Put a wi-fi card in either
pc or laptop and pull into your garage. THen download/upload songs to/from
your pc inside. Geez it's cool. Never have to take it out! You can keep
your music, your finances, your RAC cached newsgroups and all that good
stuff w/ you.

Oh and add a sprint merlin pcs wireless card and for $99 (pricey) get
unlimited downloads/uploads. Then you can really be wireless on the
Internet wherever you go. Speed is a bit better than dialup though not much.
But you can download stuff while driving!!!! Or get your e-mail, etc.

Oh yeah, I'm running Windows 98 SE on it (better software/hardware
compatibility than Linux), winamp with the "album list" plugin for easy

Some people just hate MS so they just have to run linux. Then when you
want
to load some software you buy at best buy you're SOL. Since you have a
1ghz
proc I'd run XP but that's just personal pref.

I use Linux for other things, but I felt 98 was the best option here. XP
isn't a good option mostly because it takes longer to load and shut down.

"Z. Gluhak" wrote in message
...
MZ wrote:

Oh yeah, I'm running Windows 98 SE on it (better software/hardware
compatibility than Linux), winamp with the "album list" plugin for easy

Some people just hate MS so they just have to run linux. Then when you
want
to load some software you buy at best buy you're SOL. Since you have a
1ghz
proc I'd run XP but that's just personal pref.


Since you want to appoint yourself guru and tell us why MS rocks our socks,
Please expound on this. Mark probably could find drivers if he looked hard
enough, since people are writing drivers for Linux on a daily basis, It's
damn near impossible to find something that doesn't have a driver for it and
isn't an ms product.

And about stuff you buy at "some software you buy at best buy", you can find
something for linux to do the exact same thing, most times even better,
oddly enough, for free.



narcolept
----
putting people in there place on RAC since the mid 90s. and people remember
me. Before this ninny gets all uppity, I actually typed this message from
one of 3 windows boxes I own.

The mini-itx is def. a way to go. Or you can pickup a decent laptop for
$500-$600 used, with a 14 or 15 inch screen, detach the screen and it
costs
you about the same as buying pc and screen sep. but you got a bigass
screen!
I have bought several T2x (T21, T22, T23) IBM thinkpads (which were top of
the line few years back) with 800 or 900mhz P3 chips and it fits under
your
seat (like 2inch thick or less), you can buy a NATIVE car charger for it
that. They came with 20gb hard drives which is usually enough.

Oh not to mention the T series comes with a S-VIDEO out natively in case
you
have s-video ready screen.

The mini-itx does not offer much expansion just like the laptop. Usually
you
get one pci slot, so a laptop with two pcmcia slots can actually give you
more expansion and you can always upgrade the hard drive in a laptop as
well
as go with an external usb 2.0 drive for cheap. Today with usb 2.0 you
can
upgrade just about anything externally.

Another cool thing about either option is wi-fi. Put a wi-fi card in
either
pc or laptop and pull into your garage. THen download/upload songs to/from
your pc inside. Geez it's cool. Never have to take it out! You can keep
your music, your finances, your RAC cached newsgroups and all that good
stuff w/ you.

Oh and add a sprint merlin pcs wireless card and for $99 (pricey) get
unlimited downloads/uploads. Then you can really be wireless on the
Internet wherever you go. Speed is a bit better than dialup though not
much.
But you can download stuff while driving!!!! Or get your e-mail, etc.

Actually XP loads up much faster on the same machine.


"MZ" wrote in message
...
Oh yeah, I'm running Windows 98 SE on it (better software/hardware
compatibility than Linux), winamp with the "album list" plugin for
easy

Some people just hate MS so they just have to run linux. Then when you
want
to load some software you buy at best buy you're SOL. Since you have a
1ghz
proc I'd run XP but that's just personal pref.

I use Linux for other things, but I felt 98 was the best option here. XP
isn't a good option mostly because it takes longer to load and shut down.

Since you want to appoint yourself guru and tell us why MS rocks our
socks,
Please expound on this. Mark probably could find drivers if he looked hard
enough, since people are writing drivers for Linux on a daily basis,

It's
damn near impossible to find something that doesn't have a driver for it
and
isn't an ms product.

I am not saying MS rocks your socks. You just happen to be one of the MS
haters out there who think that Linux can save the world. You have some
bitter hate with MS and can't understand why people don't like Linux. I want
to see you put your ass on the line in a corporate environment over a bunch
of no name brand products. People buy name brand because it covers their
ass. Who do you call when your linux box takes a dump at 3am?

Drivers for what? If you buy a piece of hardware it comes with an MS
driver. Hardly ever Linux driver. End of discussion.

I have no problems with Linux, I use it for certain things. I am not bashing
Linux. You are bashing MS. I don't really care to bash MS as their products
help keep me employed.

Linux has it's place. But I don't like it in my car. You don't like
Windoze. So what. I wasn't even trying to get into this discussion, I was
just giving the guy some options.

But now that we are having this discussion, Linux has been replacing Unix
for the most part and not Windows.

Does that **** you off or what? I bet it does.

And about stuff you buy at "some software you buy at best buy", you can
find
something for linux to do the exact same thing, most times even better,
oddly enough, for free.

Sure. Sometimes you can. Why don't you send me your resume in star office
or some other freebie and see how quickly you get hired for a job. MS is
the standard, and isn't changing anytime soon.

Oh and I guess they make really good games for Linux too?

So explain to me why all you Linux people ALWAYS have at least one windoze
box? Because Linux does everything?

Do you still use Betamax because it's better than VHS?

You can "put me in my place" all you want but you have no point.

"Z. Gluhak" wrote in message
...

Since you want to appoint yourself guru and tell us why MS rocks our
socks,
Please expound on this. Mark probably could find drivers if he looked
hard
enough, since people are writing drivers for Linux on a daily basis,

It's
damn near impossible to find something that doesn't have a driver for it
and
isn't an ms product.

I am not saying MS rocks your socks. You just happen to be one of the MS
haters out there who think that Linux can save the world. You have some
bitter hate with MS and can't understand why people don't like Linux. I
want
to see you put your ass on the line in a corporate environment over a
bunch
of no name brand products. People buy name brand because it covers their
ass. Who do you call when your linux box takes a dump at 3am?

I do it. So do the 18% of corporations that Dell and HP sold servers running
it to. It works very nicely and your windows bias shows that you expect a
box to "take a dump" at 3am. and the answer to your question is, on the rare
occasions it has happened, I have gotten called and had it fixed within
minutes.. I don't get where you inferred from my comments that I hated
windows. I'm the one saying that linux is a wonderful alternative, you are
saying that linux is crap and MS rules the world. They both have a place,
but your statement that linux is not used in a corporate environment is
completely unfounded.



Drivers for what? If you buy a piece of hardware it comes with an MS
driver. Hardly ever Linux driver. End of discussion.


But the linux driver is one google search away. If that's hard for you, you
got other problems than PC hardware.


I have no problems with Linux, I use it for certain things. I am not
bashing
Linux. You are bashing MS. I don't really care to bash MS as their
products
help keep me employed.


Didn't bash MS. I'm gathering you wasted some cash on an MS certification.
I need to wipe my ass, can I borrow that?


Linux has it's place. But I don't like it in my car. You don't like
Windoze. So what. I wasn't even trying to get into this discussion, I
was
just giving the guy some options.


Never said I didn't like windows, and you spelling it as "Windoze" makes it
seem like you should be getting some good rest before school tommorow. 8th
grade is tough.

But now that we are having this discussion, Linux has been replacing Unix
for the most part and not Windows.


Actually, it's been replacing both.


Does that **** you off or what? I bet it does.


Not really. I get paid to run it. It works for me.


And about stuff you buy at "some software you buy at best buy", you can
find
something for linux to do the exact same thing, most times even better,
oddly enough, for free.

Sure. Sometimes you can. Why don't you send me your resume in star office
or some other freebie and see how quickly you get hired for a job. MS is
the standard, and isn't changing anytime soon.


Why not just use open office and save as .doc or plain text?


Oh and I guess they make really good games for Linux too?


Actually, with a few minutes of work, just about any game made for windows
can be played in linux, and OpenGL games pass right through.


So explain to me why all you Linux people ALWAYS have at least one windoze
box? Because Linux does everything?


There's "windoze" again. Quit that. An intelligent argument can not be had
with someone who spells like an 8th grader.


Do you still use Betamax because it's better than VHS?

You can "put me in my place" all you want but you have no point.



You conveniently snipped -

putting people in there place on RAC since the mid 90s. and people remember
me. Before this ninny gets all uppity, I actually typed this message from
one of 3 windows boxes I own.

You just brushed over it, and ignored the fact that I said I was typing this
from an MS box. I don't hate MS. I hate people who bash other alternatives
because a) They can't use it, b) They spent way too much money on an MS cert
c) They are looking for a "cause" and have chosen to uphold all that is
Gates.



narcolept
-----
This is gonna be a good one....

Geez dude.

ass. Who do you call when your linux box takes a dump at 3am?

I do it. So do the 18% of corporations that Dell and HP sold servers
running
it to. It works very nicely and your windows bias shows that you expect a
box to "take a dump" at 3am. and the answer to your question is, on the
rare
occasions it has happened, I have gotten called and had it fixed within
minutes.. I don't get where you inferred from my comments that I hated
windows. I'm the one saying that linux is a wonderful alternative, you are
saying that linux is crap and MS rules the world. They both have a place,
but your statement that linux is not used in a corporate environment is
completely unfounded.

ok dude. So I overeacted. You didn't? All I said was it's easier to run
Windows for this application. Then your responded with MS bashing.

All I said in the original post was that I prefer XP over 98 and recommended
what I thought was an alternative to the hardware. Mark said it had better
software/hardware compatibility. Then you got a boner. But you're too
chicken to get into it with Mark, so you pick me. That's cool.

And yes its a great alternative. It keeps MS honest and working harder.
Competition is a good thing. I wish there were more heavier alternatives.
Not sure about the 18% but yes it's definitely sold to the corporate world.
Replacing UNIX that is. Not Windows. Maybe on some levels but not for the
most part.

Again I don't love windows and hate Linux. I think we're mostly on the same
page so I don't get all the attitiude.

You said it and I said it. They each have their place and both work well.



Drivers for what? If you buy a piece of hardware it comes with an MS
driver. Hardly ever Linux driver. End of discussion.


But the linux driver is one google search away. If that's hard for you,
you
got other problems than PC hardware.


What's your point? So is a Windows driver. There is not a lack of Windows
drivers, I don't get your point.
Google works great until you need a NIC driver.

I have no problems with Linux, I use it for certain things. I am not
bashing
Linux. You are bashing MS. I don't really care to bash MS as their
products
help keep me employed.


Didn't bash MS. I'm gathering you wasted some cash on an MS certification.
I need to wipe my ass, can I borrow that?

No I didn't waste cash on MS certs. I've been in the biz lot longer than
that whole thing started. I am not MS certified and unemployed like some.
I just understand that you must know MS if you want to stay in the corporate
IT business. Huge majority of computers run MS so it's "jump aboard" or
"get left behind".



Linux has it's place. But I don't like it in my car. You don't like
Windoze. So what. I wasn't even trying to get into this discussion, I
was
just giving the guy some options.


Never said I didn't like windows, and you spelling it as "Windoze" makes
it
seem like you should be getting some good rest before school tommorow. 8th
grade is tough.


Geez dude it's a common way to say Microsoft Windows. Windoze. what the
hell is up your ass man? Should I get on your ass about not Capitalizing it?
you know like SLANG? Like wassup instead of what's up? Get iT?


But now that we are having this discussion, Linux has been replacing
Unix
for the most part and not Windows.


Actually, it's been replacing both.

Right. Whatever you say.



Does that **** you off or what? I bet it does.


Not really. I get paid to run it. It works for me.

So run it and leave me alone. I was trying to help someone and not tear
someone a new ass.
I don't get all this bull**** in this newsgroup with all this attitude and
opinionated assholes.

It's like people arguing over whether brand A is better than brand B. Who
gives a ****. You run your linux and I run my Windows (notice I spelled it
correctly). Can't we coexist peacefully?

Should we get into an argument now because you have a different HU than me?
I have an Alpine, maybe you have something else so we could get into a
****ing contest over it!

I don't even care to respond to the rest, I don't want to argue with you for
a week.

Do your thing and keep your opinion and leave me alone. If I say something
that's incorrect, correct me, but I was trying to help someone and didn't
say anything incorrectly.

Why didn't you get all over Mark's ass for running 98? Isnt' Linux more
efficient? Free? Faster? Better? Prettier? Nicer?

Actually XP loads up much faster on the same machine.

I've got one that dual boots 98SE and XP and, although they boot up in
approximately the same amount of time (after I took all the junk out), XP
takes MUCH longer to shut down. Hell, if my software worked for 95, I'd
probably use that instead.

Since you want to appoint yourself guru and tell us why MS rocks our
socks,
Please expound on this. Mark probably could find drivers if he looked hard
enough, since people are writing drivers for Linux on a daily basis, It's
damn near impossible to find something that doesn't have a driver for it
and
isn't an ms product.

And about stuff you buy at "some software you buy at best buy", you can
find
something for linux to do the exact same thing, most times even better,
oddly enough, for free.

I didn't buy any software, so that's not an issue. My compatibility issues
we

1) winamp and the necessary winamp plugins
2) drivers for a relatively obscure vga touchscreen
3) one-touch software loadup next to the start menu, including shutdown, and
big icons that can be docked on the side of the screen
4) fast startup and faster shutdown

I'm not entirely sure that those four things can easily be achieved under
linux. Any ideas?

"Z. Gluhak" wrote in message
...
Geez dude.

ass. Who do you call when your linux box takes a dump at 3am?

I do it. So do the 18% of corporations that Dell and HP sold servers
running
it to. It works very nicely and your windows bias shows that you expect
a
box to "take a dump" at 3am. and the answer to your question is, on the
rare
occasions it has happened, I have gotten called and had it fixed within
minutes.. I don't get where you inferred from my comments that I hated
windows. I'm the one saying that linux is a wonderful alternative, you
are
saying that linux is crap and MS rules the world. They both have a
place,
but your statement that linux is not used in a corporate environment is
completely unfounded.

ok dude. So I overeacted. You didn't? All I said was it's easier to run
Windows for this application. Then your responded with MS bashing.


actually, your original test went something like "Some people just hate MS
so they just have to run linux." that was your first sentence? I was setting
you straight from the begininng.


All I said in the original post was that I prefer XP over 98 and
recommended
what I thought was an alternative to the hardware. Mark said it had
better
software/hardware compatibility. Then you got a boner. But you're too
chicken to get into it with Mark, so you pick me. That's cool.


**** you I'm too chicken to get into it with Mark. I've done it before and
it will probably happen again. I have no reason to get into it with him now,
so don't try to pawn your battle off on Mark.



And yes its a great alternative. It keeps MS honest and working harder.
Competition is a good thing. I wish there were more heavier alternatives.
Not sure about the 18% but yes it's definitely sold to the corporate
world.
Replacing UNIX that is. Not Windows. Maybe on some levels but not for
the
most part.


There you go with the replacing unix. It's replacing both of them,
especially quick now that that MS source is out. What kind of sysadmin has
their head in their ass to the point where they want to run an OS on a
system full of generally stupid users when there's going to be exploits
hitting it from every which way in the next few months, because, even though
you're going to say it was the 2kNT4 source, news for you, there's about a
zillion networks out there that MS hasn't been able to bully into upgrading
to XP yet.


Again I don't love windows and hate Linux. I think we're mostly on the
same
page so I don't get all the attitiude.

You said it and I said it. They each have their place and both work well.



Drivers for what? If you buy a piece of hardware it comes with an MS
driver. Hardly ever Linux driver. End of discussion.


But the linux driver is one google search away. If that's hard for you,
you
got other problems than PC hardware.


What's your point? So is a Windows driver. There is not a lack of
Windows
drivers, I don't get your point.
Google works great until you need a NIC driver.


The only NIC around that NEEDS it's own driver to work with Linux is the one
I'm running on this box, an onboard nic on an nForce2 based board. I had a
disc with drivers handy when I installed, because I knew I was going to need
them. Quick and painless.


I have no problems with Linux, I use it for certain things. I am not
bashing
Linux. You are bashing MS. I don't really care to bash MS as their
products
help keep me employed.


Didn't bash MS. I'm gathering you wasted some cash on an MS
certification.
I need to wipe my ass, can I borrow that?

No I didn't waste cash on MS certs. I've been in the biz lot longer than
that whole thing started. I am not MS certified and unemployed like some.
I just understand that you must know MS if you want to stay in the
corporate
IT business. Huge majority of computers run MS so it's "jump aboard" or
"get left behind".



Linux has it's place. But I don't like it in my car. You don't like
Windoze. So what. I wasn't even trying to get into this discussion,
I
was
just giving the guy some options.


Never said I didn't like windows, and you spelling it as "Windoze" makes
it
seem like you should be getting some good rest before school tommorow.
8th
grade is tough.


Geez dude it's a common way to say Microsoft Windows. Windoze. what the
hell is up your ass man? Should I get on your ass about not Capitalizing
it?
you know like SLANG? Like wassup instead of what's up? Get iT?


But now that we are having this discussion, Linux has been replacing
Unix
for the most part and not Windows.


Actually, it's been replacing both.

Right. Whatever you say.

Bald faced denial is some funny ****.




Does that **** you off or what? I bet it does.


Not really. I get paid to run it. It works for me.

So run it and leave me alone. I was trying to help someone and not tear
someone a new ass.
I don't get all this bull**** in this newsgroup with all this attitude and
opinionated assholes.

It's like people arguing over whether brand A is better than brand B. Who
gives a ****. You run your linux and I run my Windows (notice I spelled
it
correctly). Can't we coexist peacefully?

Should we get into an argument now because you have a different HU than
me?
I have an Alpine, maybe you have something else so we could get into a
****ing contest over it!

I don't even care to respond to the rest, I don't want to argue with you
for
a week.

Do your thing and keep your opinion and leave me alone. If I say something
that's incorrect, correct me, but I was trying to help someone and didn't
say anything incorrectly.


Your opinion is what started the whole thing. You started by lashing out at
people who run linux and think it's better for certain stuff, specifically
mp3 systems in a car.


Why didn't you get all over Mark's ass for running 98? Isnt' Linux more
efficient? Free? Faster? Better? Prettier? Nicer?




Mark can run what he wants. He chose to give a valid reason for not running
linux in his car. you started off making an attack on an OS for no reason
other than you felt like it.


narcolept
------
.....

Z. Gluhak wrote:

Some people just hate MS so they just have to run linux. Then when you want
to load some software you buy at best buy you're SOL.

When am I SOL? I run Photoshop under WINE, as well as WinMX. I use GRIP
to make my MP3s, K3b to make CDs, DVDs, and VCDs. I use DVD::Rip to copy
my DVD library into compact DiVX avi files so I can serve them all over
my house (you can't even do that with Windows). I use XMMS to play my
mp3 and ogg audio files, or my CDs. I use OpenOffice to do my word
processing, databases, spreadsheets, contact lists, and with OO I can
also do professional looking formulas for my math projects. Microsoft
Match can't handle many calculus functions, and its output is ugly.

I can watch tv with TVTime, listen to the radio with KRadio, use Mozilla
for web browsing with e-mail and newsgroup access. I can play America's
Army, Unreal Tournament 3000, UT GOTY, Quake III Arena, and with WineX I
can also play Battlefield 1942.

I can download images from my digital camera, edit and create
professional home movies with Cinerella, watch my DVDs with Xine.

So, I'm wondering...what can't I do with Linux? Well, I haven't crashed
a whole lot lately. I've never gotten a virus. So I guess Linux is kind
of limited, in that it doesn't come with a Blue Screen of Death.


--
thelizman

teamROCS Car Audio Forums http://www.teamrocs.com/caraudio/
teamROCS Car Audio News http://www.teamrocs.com/news/
"It's about the music, stupid"

This post is Copyright (C) 2004. Reproduction of its content anywhere
other than usenet without the express written permission of the author
is forbidden.

narcolept wrote:

Mark probably could find drivers if he looked hard
enough, since people are writing drivers for Linux on a daily basis, It's
damn near impossible to find something that doesn't have a driver for it and
isn't an ms product.

Well, it does happen. That's why a number of companies make
compatability later drivers for linux to use the windows native drivers.
www.linuxant.com is one example.


--
thelizman

teamROCS Car Audio Forums http://www.teamrocs.com/caraudio/
teamROCS Car Audio News http://www.teamrocs.com/news/
"It's about the music, stupid"

This post is Copyright (C) 2004. Reproduction of its content anywhere
other than usenet without the express written permission of the author
is forbidden.

**** you I'm too chicken to get into it with Mark. I've done it before and
it will probably happen again. I have no reason to get into it with him
now,
so don't try to pawn your battle off on Mark.

Ain't trying to pawn my battle of on anyone. I don't have a battle. Battle
ends if I just don't respond. Isn't that easier that wasting time with a
jerkoff like you?

You could have argued his reason for not running Linux same way you could
have argued what I have said. You just didn't.

especially quick now that that MS source is out. What kind of sysadmin has
their head in their ass to the point where they want to run an OS on a
system full of generally stupid users when there's going to be exploits
hitting it from every which way in the next few months, because, even
though


True. Users are stupid. Linux isn't for idiots who can't find the start
button in Windows. And I don't have my head up my ass, I will be patching
like a banshee pretty soon. It sucks but what can I do? Convince the
company to run our payroll software or accounting software or data warehouse
or whatever else on something the software vendors don't support? Tell
everyone they can't use Outlook anymore? Be a ****ing mutiny on my hands my
friend. Corporate environments aren't just about homemade unix apps and dns
and web servers. Once a Company invests millions in software that runs on
Windows, you kind of don't have a choice.

In my environment Linux wouldn't work. In yours it obviously does.
And no, I won't deny the source leaked and that there will be this or that
but I am sure either patches will be out and it's just a matter of
deployment, or the whole damn world will be down in which case my ass is
covered. Nobody gets fired for choosing the name brand.

The only NIC around that NEEDS it's own driver to work with Linux is the
one
I'm running on this box, an onboard nic on an nForce2 based board. I had a
disc with drivers handy when I installed, because I knew I was going to
need
them. Quick and painless.

What's your point?


Right. Whatever you say.

Bald faced denial is some funny ****.


Right. Whatever you say.

Your opinion is what started the whole thing. You started by lashing out
at
people who run linux and think it's better for certain stuff, specifically
mp3 systems in a car.

I didn't "lash out". I simply said "Some people just hate MS
so they just have to run linux."

I guess you could take that the wrong way but that was not my intent. I was
not trying to imply that Linux is bad nor that all people who run Linux hate
MS. It came out wrong. **** me I am sorry. My intent was that you don't
have to run Linux, that windows works fine. Note the spelling of Windows!

And Windows is easier for newbs, you can't deny that. I was trying to tell
the guy he don't have to do Linux that Windows would work just fine. And it
comes with most hardware so why mess with it if you aren't a computer
person?

You took it and ran with it.
Just from experience, now you can call this stereotyping, a lot of people
who are hard up on Linux like you don't like MS. Now I shouldn't make
comments like that, yes. Did I mean anything by it, no.


Mark can run what he wants. He chose to give a valid reason for not
running
linux in his car. you started off making an attack on an OS for no reason
other than you felt like it.

If you really want to take my comments litteraly, I made an attack on people
who run Linux and/or hate MS. Not Linux itself. That was made up by you.

I gave a valid reason for not running it too. It's a pain in the ass for
most people. So is car stereo but we all put up with it because it gives
something in return. It doesn't make it bad.

Again I wasn't trying to start **** but it started so here we are.......set
me straight some more.

So, I'm wondering...what can't I do with Linux? Well, I haven't crashed
a whole lot lately. I've never gotten a virus. So I guess Linux is kind
of limited, in that it doesn't come with a Blue Screen of Death.

BSOD problems aren't that common. Viruses are awful these days because
everyone is after MS. If everyone used Linux there would be many viruses
against Linux.

Look I am not denying the power of Linux. I LIKE LINUX.

Straight from the WINE HQ site:
"Myth 4: "You need Windows anyway"
No. The goal of Wine is a full reimplementation of the Windows API which
will make Windows unnecessary.
You can already run a lot of applications without having Windows installed.
But you have to realize that because Wine is still far from completion many
applications will indeed require Windows for some functionality that Wine
does not yet provide itself."



MY point is that there is a lot of software you CAN'T run on Linux. Most you
can. But some you can't. At least not yet.

There are many apps that are very anal and picky and won't run.



That's all.

Z. Gluhak wrote:

I am not saying MS rocks your socks. You just happen to be one of the MS
haters out there who think that Linux can save the world.

It can. Linux is low-cost to 0-cost, and can be used to deploy software
solutions to the third world. Linux software like Freenet allows
dissident political groups in places like Cambodia or Iran to coordinate
efforts to reform their government without fear of jack-booted black
turbans kicking the door in and beheading them.

You have some
bitter hate with MS and can't understand why people don't like Linux. I want
to see you put your ass on the line in a corporate environment

Been there, done that.

over a bunch of no name brand products.

No-name brand products like IBM, Dell, Intel, Oracle, HP/Compaq, Sun
Microsystems, Apple Computer, Netscape, ID Games...you know...I can't
even list it all.

People buy name brand because it covers their
ass.

It covers their ass because when something goes wrong they can blame
Microsoft instead of their own incompetance. But then, Microsoft has
plenty of their own. The average time to patch a vulnerability with OSS
Linux software is 32 hours. The average for Microsoft products is 2
weeks. Thats if you exclude the Win32 vulnerabilities in Windows
95/98/ME/2000 that Microsoft refuses to fix, or if you ignore the three
month waiting time to repair the IE "url spoofing" bug.

Who do you call when your linux box takes a dump at 3am?

Honestly, I've never had a linux box take a dump. I've heard of it
happenning to a friend though - and the server rebooted itself
automatically. Fault tolerant state-aware kernal - something not offered
in WindowsNT/XP/2K/3K servers.

Drivers for what? If you buy a piece of hardware it comes with an MS
driver. Hardly ever Linux driver. End of discussion.

That's because linux comes with the drivers.

Linux has it's place.

Yes it does. In the server, on the desktop, in the labs, on the laptops,
in embedded devices, in PDAs, in consumer electronics, and even in car
stereo headunits (ever hear of EMPEG?).

But now that we are having this discussion, Linux has been replacing Unix
for the most part and not Windows.

Lemme guess, you're an MCSE who gets the MSDN news letters from
Microsoft and Unisys. Well, newsflash - Linux has a 30% combined market
share, with 70% of servers running linux, and 20% of desktops running
Linux.

Does that **** you off or what? I bet it does.

I find it amusing. You say Microsoft keeps you in business. It'll soon
put you out of business. Microsoft stopped innovating years ago, but
they never stopped charging for it.

Sure. Sometimes you can. Why don't you send me your resume in star office
or some other freebie and see how quickly you get hired for a job. MS is
the standard, and isn't changing anytime soon.

That's why OpenOffice and Star office can read and write to Microsoft
Word documents.

Oh and I guess they make really good games for Linux too?

Unreal Tournament 3000 rocks harder than any FPS I've seen lately.
America's Army looks really nice too, and I can play it for hours. I
still have Quake III Arena, but I hardly play it anymore. I tried Dark
Ages of Camelot, but MMORPGs bore me. I usually play Unreal Tournament
Game of the Year edition. Just for ****s and giggles, I've been playing
Postal 2.

So explain to me why all you Linux people ALWAYS have at least one windoze
box? Because Linux does everything?

Gotta test my Windows software that I wrote under Linux somehow.

Do you still use Betamax because it's better than VHS?

Well, since I have access to professional production studioes, I have to
say yes, I still use Beta because its better than VHS. But for the most
part, DV cameras are replacing that. Oddly enough, my JVC DV camera uses
a firmware port of linux. Don't see Windows CE running any camcorders.

You can "put me in my place" all you want but you have no point.

He's wasting his time allright. You're completely ignorant about linux,
and hopelessly dependant upon Microsofts shoddy products. But thats okay
for now, because just about everyone else is.

--
thelizman

teamROCS Car Audio Forums http://www.teamrocs.com/caraudio/
teamROCS Car Audio News http://www.teamrocs.com/news/
"It's about the music, stupid"

This post is Copyright (C) 2004. Reproduction of its content anywhere
other than usenet without the express written permission of the author
is forbidden.

MZ wrote:
Actually XP loads up much faster on the same machine.


I've got one that dual boots 98SE and XP and, although they boot up in
approximately the same amount of time (after I took all the junk out), XP
takes MUCH longer to shut down. Hell, if my software worked for 95, I'd
probably use that instead.

I've found that XP boots way faster than 98, but shuts down at the same
speed. Blame it on XPs superior 32 bit driver architecture (or, the lack
of 16 bit driver interfaces). It still takes the same amount of time to
clean up the memory either way, but unlike 98 XP does always shut down.
i'm used to 98 hanging up, or rebooting when it should turn off because
of buggy ACPI drivers.

Linux takes forever to boot, but all you need to do to fix that is
compile your drivers into a kernel, and parallelize loading of kernel
modules for drivers you don't want to compile in. I hardly even use
Windows anymore, except to play BF1942 with the Desert Combat mod (hooah).

--
thelizman

teamROCS Car Audio Forums http://www.teamrocs.com/caraudio/
teamROCS Car Audio News http://www.teamrocs.com/news/
"It's about the music, stupid"

This post is Copyright (C) 2004. Reproduction of its content anywhere
other than usenet without the express written permission of the author
is forbidden.

"Z. Gluhak" wrote in message
...

**** you I'm too chicken to get into it with Mark. I've done it before
and
it will probably happen again. I have no reason to get into it with him
now,
so don't try to pawn your battle off on Mark.

Ain't trying to pawn my battle of on anyone. I don't have a battle.
Battle
ends if I just don't respond. Isn't that easier that wasting time with a
jerkoff like you?

You could have argued his reason for not running Linux same way you could
have argued what I have said. You just didn't.

especially quick now that that MS source is out. What kind of sysadmin
has
their head in their ass to the point where they want to run an OS on a
system full of generally stupid users when there's going to be exploits
hitting it from every which way in the next few months, because, even
though


True. Users are stupid. Linux isn't for idiots who can't find the start
button in Windows. And I don't have my head up my ass, I will be patching
like a banshee pretty soon. It sucks but what can I do? Convince the
company to run our payroll software or accounting software or data
warehouse
or whatever else on something the software vendors don't support? Tell
everyone they can't use Outlook anymore? Be a ****ing mutiny on my hands
my
friend. Corporate environments aren't just about homemade unix apps and
dns
and web servers. Once a Company invests millions in software that runs on
Windows, you kind of don't have a choice.

In my environment Linux wouldn't work. In yours it obviously does.
And no, I won't deny the source leaked and that there will be this or that
but I am sure either patches will be out and it's just a matter of
deployment, or the whole damn world will be down in which case my ass is
covered. Nobody gets fired for choosing the name brand.

The only NIC around that NEEDS it's own driver to work with Linux is the
one
I'm running on this box, an onboard nic on an nForce2 based board. I had
a
disc with drivers handy when I installed, because I knew I was going to
need
them. Quick and painless.

What's your point?


That you were implying that needing a NIC to download a nic driver is a
common thing in linux. it isn't. support for 99.9% of all nics is built in,
and those that aren't, it's well know that you're going to need to supply
drivers.



Right. Whatever you say.

Bald faced denial is some funny ****.


Right. Whatever you say.

Your opinion is what started the whole thing. You started by lashing out
at
people who run linux and think it's better for certain stuff,
specifically
mp3 systems in a car.

I didn't "lash out". I simply said "Some people just hate MS
so they just have to run linux."

I guess you could take that the wrong way but that was not my intent. I
was
not trying to imply that Linux is bad nor that all people who run Linux
hate
MS. It came out wrong. **** me I am sorry. My intent was that you don't
have to run Linux, that windows works fine. Note the spelling of Windows!

And Windows is easier for newbs, you can't deny that. I was trying to
tell
the guy he don't have to do Linux that Windows would work just fine. And
it
comes with most hardware so why mess with it if you aren't a computer
person?


If you weren't replying blindly, you'd know that Mark isn't a newb, and
knows his way around linux. He chose MS out of personal choice, not because
he hates linux. That's why I didn't say anything to him. If he wants to run
linux, he can let me know what hardware he's trying to support, etc, and
I'll link him to everything he needs.



You took it and ran with it.
Just from experience, now you can call this stereotyping, a lot of people
who are hard up on Linux like you don't like MS. Now I shouldn't make
comments like that, yes. Did I mean anything by it, no.



A lot of people that run linux on a network or system they admin, or run it
exclusively, aren't anti MS. Most of them, not myself, are anti non open
source. Say one of them fancy new pieces of hardware you got came with non
working windows drivers. Could you write up your own drivers for windows?
Not bloody likely, because there isn't a source to build from. You can code
to work WITH windows, but you can't code FOR windows, get it? These people
are just overly happy to point out that anything you can do with windows can
be done easier and cheaper with linux.


Mark can run what he wants. He chose to give a valid reason for not
running
linux in his car. you started off making an attack on an OS for no
reason
other than you felt like it.

If you really want to take my comments litteraly, I made an attack on
people
who run Linux and/or hate MS. Not Linux itself. That was made up by you.

I gave a valid reason for not running it too. It's a pain in the ass for
most people. So is car stereo but we all put up with it because it gives
something in return. It doesn't make it bad.


It's a pain in the ass for most people because most people have their heads
15 inches into their lower intestines. Anyone with half a brain and one
working eye can read for 1/2 hour and install a perfectly good linux box.
Hell, people with one eye and without the brain can run fedora, as long as
they can pound their head on the enter key twice and bust out a root
password twice, then pound enter a bit more and set up a username/pass.
Sounds a lot like an install we all know quite well, from a company in
redmond, minus the root password bit.


Again I wasn't trying to start **** but it started so here we
are.......set
me straight some more.

"thelizman" wrote in message
...
Z. Gluhak wrote:

I am not saying MS rocks your socks. You just happen to be one of the MS
haters out there who think that Linux can save the world.

It can. Linux is low-cost to 0-cost, and can be used to deploy software
solutions to the third world. Linux software like Freenet allows
dissident political groups in places like Cambodia or Iran to coordinate
efforts to reform their government without fear of jack-booted black
turbans kicking the door in and beheading them.

You have some
bitter hate with MS and can't understand why people don't like Linux. I
want
to see you put your ass on the line in a corporate environment

Been there, done that.

over a bunch of no name brand products.

No-name brand products like IBM, Dell, Intel, Oracle, HP/Compaq, Sun
Microsystems, Apple Computer, Netscape, ID Games...you know...I can't
even list it all.

People buy name brand because it covers their
ass.

It covers their ass because when something goes wrong they can blame
Microsoft instead of their own incompetance. But then, Microsoft has
plenty of their own. The average time to patch a vulnerability with OSS
Linux software is 32 hours. The average for Microsoft products is 2
weeks. Thats if you exclude the Win32 vulnerabilities in Windows
95/98/ME/2000 that Microsoft refuses to fix, or if you ignore the three
month waiting time to repair the IE "url spoofing" bug.

Who do you call when your linux box takes a dump at 3am?

Honestly, I've never had a linux box take a dump. I've heard of it
happenning to a friend though - and the server rebooted itself
automatically. Fault tolerant state-aware kernal - something not offered
in WindowsNT/XP/2K/3K servers.

Liz - The proper answer is "Go in and replace the dead power supply" ....

narcolept
----
providing humor to rac since the mid 90s, and NOT stealing the faq, either.



Drivers for what? If you buy a piece of hardware it comes with an MS
driver. Hardly ever Linux driver. End of discussion.

That's because linux comes with the drivers.

Linux has it's place.

Yes it does. In the server, on the desktop, in the labs, on the laptops,
in embedded devices, in PDAs, in consumer electronics, and even in car
stereo headunits (ever hear of EMPEG?).

But now that we are having this discussion, Linux has been replacing
Unix
for the most part and not Windows.

Lemme guess, you're an MCSE who gets the MSDN news letters from
Microsoft and Unisys. Well, newsflash - Linux has a 30% combined market
share, with 70% of servers running linux, and 20% of desktops running
Linux.

Does that **** you off or what? I bet it does.

I find it amusing. You say Microsoft keeps you in business. It'll soon
put you out of business. Microsoft stopped innovating years ago, but
they never stopped charging for it.

Sure. Sometimes you can. Why don't you send me your resume in star
office
or some other freebie and see how quickly you get hired for a job. MS
is
the standard, and isn't changing anytime soon.

That's why OpenOffice and Star office can read and write to Microsoft
Word documents.

Oh and I guess they make really good games for Linux too?

Unreal Tournament 3000 rocks harder than any FPS I've seen lately.
America's Army looks really nice too, and I can play it for hours. I
still have Quake III Arena, but I hardly play it anymore. I tried Dark
Ages of Camelot, but MMORPGs bore me. I usually play Unreal Tournament
Game of the Year edition. Just for ****s and giggles, I've been playing
Postal 2.

So explain to me why all you Linux people ALWAYS have at least one
windoze
box? Because Linux does everything?

Gotta test my Windows software that I wrote under Linux somehow.

Do you still use Betamax because it's better than VHS?

Well, since I have access to professional production studioes, I have to
say yes, I still use Beta because its better than VHS. But for the most
part, DV cameras are replacing that. Oddly enough, my JVC DV camera uses
a firmware port of linux. Don't see Windows CE running any camcorders.

You can "put me in my place" all you want but you have no point.

He's wasting his time allright. You're completely ignorant about linux,
and hopelessly dependant upon Microsofts shoddy products. But thats okay
for now, because just about everyone else is.

--
thelizman

teamROCS Car Audio Forums http://www.teamrocs.com/caraudio/
teamROCS Car Audio News http://www.teamrocs.com/news/
"It's about the music, stupid"

This post is Copyright (C) 2004. Reproduction of its content anywhere
other than usenet without the express written permission of the author
is forbidden.

MZ wrote:

I didn't buy any software, so that's not an issue. My compatibility issues
we

1) winamp and the necessary winamp plugins
2) drivers for a relatively obscure vga touchscreen
3) one-touch software loadup next to the start menu, including shutdown, and
big icons that can be docked on the side of the screen
4) fast startup and faster shutdown

I'm not entirely sure that those four things can easily be achieved under
linux. Any ideas?

We're so busy fighting our zealot wars, we forgot about you.

If GUI is the way to go, then you can use XMMS to replace winamp
perfectly. I believe XMMS even takes winamp plugins.

You wont need special drivers for your VGA touchscreen. You just have to
tweak the /etc/X11/XF86Config file to support it. If I knew more about
your machine, I could probably generate the file for you.

One touch software loadup - that depends. If you want to just touch an
icon and have it launch, that's easy enough, you just change the mouse
behavior under KDE or GNOME to launch on single clicking an icon. If you
want to map a software launch to a keystroke - like "F2" - you can do
it, but I forgot how.

Docking on the side of the screen is accomplished the same way as in
windows - you just drag the taskbar there and resize. You can even
supersize your icons. Faster startup is easy, you just minimize the
number of drivers. You can also gain an edge from compiling your kernel,
and parallelizing driver startup. Chances are a lean linux install will
boot in about 15 seconds. But with linux, you could run the laptop 24/7
without killing your car battery.

Let me tell you want else you can do - set up password protected samba
shares so you can drag and drop files onto your car computer from in the
house, or access your house from the driveway. You can run a wardriving
program to log open access points while you're driving around. If you're
ever in a jam, you can drive up to a business or house and check your
e-mail / look for directions. It's stealing, but you know...in a pinch.
There are also interfaces with OBD/II so you can monitor your engine
while you drive. Theres a guy who wrote a XMMS plug in that adjust his
volume based on the speed, and input from a GPS unit (which turns it
down in neighborhoods, near graveyards and churches, and other places).

If you're into tweaking, linux affords you many opportunities to
customize your setup. It also lets you do more than Windows because
there are no barriers to system access - beyond standard security
barriers (which only require a root password to get past).




--
thelizman

teamROCS Car Audio Forums http://www.teamrocs.com/caraudio/
teamROCS Car Audio News http://www.teamrocs.com/news/
"It's about the music, stupid"

This post is Copyright (C) 2004. Reproduction of its content anywhere
other than usenet without the express written permission of the author
is forbidden.

"thelizman" wrote in message
...
Z. Gluhak wrote:

I am not saying MS rocks your socks. You just happen to be one of the MS
haters out there who think that Linux can save the world.

It can. Linux is low-cost to 0-cost, and can be used to deploy software
solutions to the third world. Linux software like Freenet allows
dissident political groups in places like Cambodia or Iran to coordinate
efforts to reform their government without fear of jack-booted black
turbans kicking the door in and beheading them.


Fine. Freenet does that. Great. Good for the dissidents. As I said, Linux
has it's place. It's good for everyone that competition exists.

You have some
bitter hate with MS and can't understand why people don't like Linux. I
want
to see you put your ass on the line in a corporate environment

Been there, done that.

Whatever. I don't know of your background other than in car audio so I can't
comment.


over a bunch of no name brand products.

No-name brand products like IBM, Dell, Intel, Oracle, HP/Compaq, Sun
Microsystems, Apple Computer, Netscape, ID Games...you know...I can't
even list it all.


I was talking about software not hardware. HW manufacturers load Linux
because people are buying it. They would sell DOS if people bought it. At
the same time UNIX sales are down. But the OS is a SMALL cost of total
software in a corporate environment.


People buy name brand because it covers their
ass.

It covers their ass because when something goes wrong they can blame
Microsoft instead of their own incompetance.

Or they can call microsoft to get help? Not everything is about blame, some
things are "insurance policies".

But then, Microsoft has
plenty of their own. The average time to patch a vulnerability with OSS
Linux software is 32 hours. The average for Microsoft products is 2
weeks.

Maybe. But is it because MS is slow or they test it more or what? Besides
it's not the vulnerabilities that have been causing all the mayhem. It's the
people who aren't patching their systems. If MS came out with patches in 15
minutes it wouldn't change that.

Thats if you exclude the Win32 vulnerabilities in Windows
95/98/ME/2000 that Microsoft refuses to fix, or if you ignore the three
month waiting time to repair the IE "url spoofing" bug.

Look there is no doubt that MS code sucks in a lot of respects. They are a
big weight throwing giant. But the whole argument was it's still easier for
most people to put on a pc and play mp3s with! And it's still easier to
support users and servers with!


Who do you call when your linux box takes a dump at 3am?

Honestly, I've never had a linux box take a dump. I've heard of it
happenning to a friend though - and the server rebooted itself
automatically. Fault tolerant state-aware kernal - something not offered
in WindowsNT/XP/2K/3K servers.

All good servers come with auto reboot drivers. Even my 5 yr old Compaq's
reboot if the kernel dies.


Drivers for what? If you buy a piece of hardware it comes with an MS
driver. Hardly ever Linux driver. End of discussion.

That's because linux comes with the drivers.

For most stuff it does. Again not for everything.


Linux has it's place.

Yes it does. In the server, on the desktop, in the labs, on the laptops,
in embedded devices, in PDAs, in consumer electronics, and even in car
stereo headunits (ever hear of EMPEG?).

Agreed. But not on every server, desktop, lab, or laptop.


But now that we are having this discussion, Linux has been replacing
Unix
for the most part and not Windows.

Lemme guess, you're an MCSE who gets the MSDN news letters from
Microsoft and Unisys. Well, newsflash - Linux has a 30% combined market
share, with 70% of servers running linux, and 20% of desktops running
Linux.

70% of what servers are running Linux?
No I am not an MCSE.


Does that **** you off or what? I bet it does.

I find it amusing. You say Microsoft keeps you in business. It'll soon
put you out of business. Microsoft stopped innovating years ago, but
they never stopped charging for it.

Yeah they charge an arm and a leg. And maybe they haven't innovated all that
much lately. But I don't see them going away anytime soon.


Sure. Sometimes you can. Why don't you send me your resume in star
office
or some other freebie and see how quickly you get hired for a job. MS
is
the standard, and isn't changing anytime soon.

That's why OpenOffice and Star office can read and write to Microsoft
Word documents.

Sure but MS is the standard. So why mess with open office or star office
except cost? And cost isn't everything always. There is much more to TCO
than software cost.


Oh and I guess they make really good games for Linux too?

Unreal Tournament 3000 rocks harder than any FPS I've seen lately.
America's Army looks really nice too, and I can play it for hours. I
still have Quake III Arena, but I hardly play it anymore. I tried Dark
Ages of Camelot, but MMORPGs bore me. I usually play Unreal Tournament
Game of the Year edition. Just for ****s and giggles, I've been playing
Postal 2.

On Wine?


So explain to me why all you Linux people ALWAYS have at least one
windoze
box? Because Linux does everything?

Gotta test my Windows software that I wrote under Linux somehow

Yeah that's the only reason.

Do you still use Betamax because it's better than VHS?

Well, since I have access to professional production studioes, I have to
say yes, I still use Beta because its better than VHS. But for the most
part, DV cameras are replacing that. Oddly enough, my JVC DV camera uses
a firmware port of linux. Don't see Windows CE running any camcorders.

You can "put me in my place" all you want but you have no point.

He's wasting his time allright. You're completely ignorant about linux,
and hopelessly dependant upon Microsofts shoddy products. But thats okay
for now, because just about everyone else is.

Maybe so. But I still bet you MS isn't going anywhere as you claim. It's
cost the economy way too much.

Again, I wasn't bashing Linux with my original post, I was trying to help
someone.

-Z

Linux has it's place.


Yes it does. In the server, on the desktop, in the labs, on the laptops,
in embedded devices, in PDAs, in consumer electronics, and even in car
stereo headunits (ever hear of EMPEG?).


ooh ooh

i have

my empeg (a linux box) is great

that sucker boots in about 7 seconds, saves state and shuts down in
almost no time...

and being open source, there is a community of competent owners
constantly developing new onboard applications, kernel updates,
interfaces, etc. etc. etc.

imagine that happening with a product running proprietary software...
--
sancho

If you weren't replying blindly, you'd know that Mark isn't a newb, and
knows his way around linux. He chose MS out of personal choice, not
because
he hates linux. That's why I didn't say anything to him. If he wants to
run
linux, he can let me know what hardware he's trying to support, etc, and
I'll link him to everything he needs.

I am a newb and I know Mark isn't.

I wasn't replying to him but rather the original poster. I guess I ****ed
up the order. Sorry.

Chances are a lean linux install will
boot in about 15 seconds. But with linux, you could run the laptop 24/7
without killing your car battery.

I'm using a mini ITX, not a laptop.

Let me tell you want else you can do - set up password protected samba
shares so you can drag and drop files onto your car computer from in the
house, or access your house from the driveway.

I do that anyway.

I find it amusing. You say Microsoft keeps you in business. It'll soon
put you out of business. Microsoft stopped innovating years ago, but
they never stopped charging for it.

You know, on a lighter note, one of my best friends is a security expert.
He hates MS and all their products, and uses all open source software
exclusively.

The funny thing is MS keeps him employed as he is helping companies identify
their vulnerabilities. Of course, most of them are MS vulnerabilities.

Same way it keeps me employed, patching like a banshee!!!

-Z

Z. Gluhak wrote:

People buy name brand because it covers their
ass. Who do you call when your linux box takes a dump at 3am?

if they don't have an in-house tech? cygnus? one of the other countless
companies that offers linux support?

not to mention the fact that the support will be GOOD because those
companies exist only to provide support... that is the product they sell
and they cannot skimp...

ever tried to get actual help from microsoft?

http://www.netscrap.com/netscrap_det...m?scrap_id=704
--
sancho

narcolept wrote:

Liz - The proper answer is "Go in and replace the dead power supply" ....

narcolept
----
providing humor to rac since the mid 90s, and NOT stealing the faq, either.

ROFLMAO! I'm stealing that one...

--
thelizman

teamROCS Car Audio Forums http://www.teamrocs.com/caraudio/
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"It's about the music, stupid"

This post is Copyright (C) 2004. Reproduction of its content anywhere
other than usenet without the express written permission of the author
is forbidden.

Z. Gluhak wrote:

I was talking about software not hardware. HW manufacturers load Linux
because people are buying it.

No no no, you're missing the real situation. These companies are
actively contributing to Linux, particularly IBM which has invested
billions in Linux development through block grants to OSS production
groups. Intel themselves have pledged to release driver updates for
Linux concurrently windows, and Centrino is now supported with Linux
software from Intel. And have you been to an Intel fab, or Microchip
fab? Linux is powering all their fab processes now.

Or they can call microsoft to get help? Not everything is about blame, some
things are "insurance policies".

Yeah...Uhm...Microsoft told me to call the vendor who makes my server.
Lots of help they were, which is the same day I migrated to Linux.


Maybe. But is it because MS is slow or they test it more or what? Besides
it's not the vulnerabilities that have been causing all the mayhem. It's the
people who aren't patching their systems. If MS came out with patches in 15
minutes it wouldn't change that.

Or maybe its the shoddy security of the Win32 platform. Windows
routinely leaves ports open and services running that users aren't even
using. Linux only runs those services the user specifies to run, and
even then there are rigid priveledges in place.


Look there is no doubt that MS code sucks in a lot of respects. They are a
big weight throwing giant. But the whole argument was it's still easier for
most people to put on a pc and play mp3s with! And it's still easier to
support users and servers with!

Easier says whom? If someone can't install linux, they can't install
windows either. In fact, Linux tells you what it's installing and why.
You have to guess with Microsoft software.

For most stuff it does. Again not for everything.

The same goes for Windows.



Sure but MS is the standard. So why mess with open office or star office
except cost? And cost isn't everything always. There is much more to TCO
than software cost.

TCO for Linux is still lower than Microsoft software.


Unreal Tournament 3000 rocks harder than any FPS I've seen lately.
America's Army looks really nice too, and I can play it for hours. I
still have Quake III Arena, but I hardly play it anymore. I tried Dark
Ages of Camelot, but MMORPGs bore me. I usually play Unreal Tournament
Game of the Year edition. Just for ****s and giggles, I've been playing
Postal 2.


On Wine?

No, every one of these games is available for Linux natively.

Again, I wasn't bashing Linux with my original post, I was trying to help
someone.

You're not helping them if you're not offering the best solution. You
have not made the case that the best solution in Windows over Linux.
You've done a lot of Linux bashing whether you intended to or not.

--
thelizman "I didn't steal the FAQ either"

teamROCS Car Audio Forums http://www.teamrocs.com/caraudio/
teamROCS Car Audio News http://www.teamrocs.com/news/
"It's about the music, stupid"

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other than usenet without the express written permission of the author
is forbidden.

the major hardware company I work for supplies A TON of drivers for Linux
support...
I have a feeling you're very mis-informed.

BTW... seen the new IBM server ads TOUTING linux servers????

fhlh



"Z. Gluhak" wrote in message
...

Since you want to appoint yourself guru and tell us why MS rocks our
socks,
Please expound on this. Mark probably could find drivers if he looked
hard
enough, since people are writing drivers for Linux on a daily basis,

It's
damn near impossible to find something that doesn't have a driver for it
and
isn't an ms product.

I am not saying MS rocks your socks. You just happen to be one of the MS
haters out there who think that Linux can save the world. You have some
bitter hate with MS and can't understand why people don't like Linux. I
want
to see you put your ass on the line in a corporate environment over a
bunch
of no name brand products. People buy name brand because it covers their
ass. Who do you call when your linux box takes a dump at 3am?

Drivers for what? If you buy a piece of hardware it comes with an MS
driver. Hardly ever Linux driver. End of discussion.

I have no problems with Linux, I use it for certain things. I am not
bashing
Linux. You are bashing MS. I don't really care to bash MS as their
products
help keep me employed.

Linux has it's place. But I don't like it in my car. You don't like
Windoze. So what. I wasn't even trying to get into this discussion, I
was
just giving the guy some options.

But now that we are having this discussion, Linux has been replacing Unix
for the most part and not Windows.

Does that **** you off or what? I bet it does.

And about stuff you buy at "some software you buy at best buy", you can
find
something for linux to do the exact same thing, most times even better,
oddly enough, for free.

Sure. Sometimes you can. Why don't you send me your resume in star office
or some other freebie and see how quickly you get hired for a job. MS is
the standard, and isn't changing anytime soon.

Oh and I guess they make really good games for Linux too?

So explain to me why all you Linux people ALWAYS have at least one windoze
box? Because Linux does everything?

Do you still use Betamax because it's better than VHS?

You can "put me in my place" all you want but you have no point.

fhlh002 wrote:
the major hardware company I work for supplies A TON of drivers for Linux
support...
I have a feeling you're very mis-informed.

BTW... seen the new IBM server ads TOUTING linux servers????

fhlh


FOGGY! WASSUP MAN!

Jesus, alot of old-schoolers are coming back. Now only Alma would pop up
here somewhere.

--
thelizman "I didn't steal the FAQ either"

teamROCS Car Audio Forums http://www.teamrocs.com/caraudio/
teamROCS Car Audio News http://www.teamrocs.com/news/
"It's about the music, stupid"

This post is Copyright (C) 2004. Reproduction of its content anywhere
other than usenet without the express written permission of the author
is forbidden.

FOGGY! WASSUP MAN!

Jesus, alot of old-schoolers are coming back. Now only Alma would pop up
here somewhere.

For what it's worth, I saw altersys playing shuffleboard with his old gear.
Sad really...

I'm hoping Ian Macoomb and Doug Leno find their way back here. Even though
they're not old-timers (2000 vintage I think), they knew their stuff, which
served to decrease the amount of crapola spewed around in here (partly by
yours truly, no doubt).

"fhlh002" wrote in message ...
the major hardware company I work for supplies A TON of drivers for Linux
support...
I have a feeling you're very mis-informed.

BTW... seen the new IBM server ads TOUTING linux servers????

fhlh

Yeah, smart move. It makes no diff to IBM who they sell the hardware
to. A whole new market has opened up - power of Unix on cheap Intel
based hardware. It's great for the hardware vendors and users.

I don't deny all the greatness of Linux. But an argument can be made
for open source and against it.

I still have 2 wi-fi NICs that I can't get working on Mandrake 9.2. I
got them working in 3 minutes in XP.

It's also amuzing how much sh*t the whole MS software leak has stirred
up. Isn't linux open source making it available to anyone? So if 10%
of code being known to the world presents a problem what does 100% do?

"Z Gluhak" wrote in message
om...
"fhlh002" wrote in message
...
the major hardware company I work for supplies A TON of drivers for
Linux
support...
I have a feeling you're very mis-informed.

BTW... seen the new IBM server ads TOUTING linux servers????

fhlh

Yeah, smart move. It makes no diff to IBM who they sell the hardware
to. A whole new market has opened up - power of Unix on cheap Intel
based hardware. It's great for the hardware vendors and users.

I don't deny all the greatness of Linux. But an argument can be made
for open source and against it.

I still have 2 wi-fi NICs that I can't get working on Mandrake 9.2. I
got them working in 3 minutes in XP.

It's also amuzing how much sh*t the whole MS software leak has stirred
up. Isn't linux open source making it available to anyone? So if 10%
of code being known to the world presents a problem what does 100% do?

not even trying to get into another argument, but I wanted to point out that
this was a big issue in the antitrust case, microsoft's refusal to reveal
source code. Also, the reason SCO hasn't backed down yet is the fact that
they're heavily backed by microsoft, which presses them to use their
"patents" to attempt to dissuade business from using linux. Which is why
IBM is really sticking it to them by open sourcing several different parts
of AIX that they also have patents on that are somewhat identical to SCO's
"patents". Just wanted to ramble.


narcolept
-----
and then there was me.

not even trying to get into another argument, but I wanted to point out
that
this was a big issue in the antitrust case, microsoft's refusal to reveal
source code. Also, the reason SCO hasn't backed down yet is the fact that
they're heavily backed by microsoft, which presses them to use their
"patents" to attempt to dissuade business from using linux. Which is why
IBM is really sticking it to them by open sourcing several different parts
of AIX that they also have patents on that are somewhat identical to SCO's
"patents". Just wanted to ramble.


narcolept
-----
and then there was me.



yeah this is true. when someone is suing you for $1 Billion you gotta stick
it to them! Wonder where SCO will be down the road after the dust settles.
Seems like they are just chasing after "intellectual property" rather than
expanding their customer base and bettering the product.

Z

Z Gluhak wrote:
"fhlh002" wrote in message ...

It's also amuzing how much sh*t the whole MS software leak has stirred
up. Isn't linux open source making it available to anyone? So if 10%
of code being known to the world presents a problem what does 100% do?

It forces the developers to be very careful in their coding. Since OSS
is developed in "communities" of volunteers, you have more than one or
two sets of eyes on the source at a time looking for these holes. Also,
the great advantage of OSS is that there's an incentive to code securely
that doesn't exist in CSS. Microsoft doesn't fix vulnerabilities until
they become an issue, even though they may be known about at the time of
MS's inception. Microsoft practices what is known as "security through
obscurity", reasoning that "if they can't find it, it doesn't exist".

--
thelizman "I didn't steal the FAQ either"

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