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#81
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Directed Amplifiers
This would explain why early PPI amplifiers looked like Orion GX knock offs,
as I have stated. Since these were the same people that created Orion to begin with, when they left Orion and started PPI, I highly doubt that they trashed every bit of knowledge they had and agreed on and started totally fresh at PPI. They were more then likely buying parts from the same suppliers along with their extrusion dies and applying knowledge that they already had from Orion. Bottom line is when you have Orion's people building amplifiers, you get Orion amplifiers with changes that both sides could not agree on as a single team, such as the fully regulated power supplies as stated by John Andreen. Just how wrong was I by saying that early PPI amplifiers looked like Orion GX knock offs? As it turns out early PPI amplifiers were more of an Orion knock off then I thought, which is totally fine now that I am aware of the fact that they were made by the same people. I have gone back as far as I can remember and things kind of go like this. A company called OHM TECH used to do contract board manufacturing for Rockford Fosgate. After a period of time, these individuals at OHM TECH saw an opportunity to make money by building their own product. This handful of people started ORION. Time went by and several of the original people had a falling out. They left and started Precision Power Inc. The biggest differences were over topologies. Orion preferred fixed duty cycle quasi-regulated power supplies. PPI preferred fully regulated PWM regulation schemes, hence the name Precision Power. At this juncture, I am pretty sure that only a handful of companies were using PWM. There was a gigantic rift between ORION and PPI that only ended when PPI and ORION were both under ADST roof. A little known factoid is that all ORION amplifiers made up until the "Spock's Coffin" line had vestigial elements left over in the Power supply section that are of little or no use in a MOSFET power supply. In fact, these elements often have a substantial deleterious effect on the amplifier. In short they can blow up just "because". |
#82
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Directed Amplifiers
It seems at this point that I should be setting my calendar in Outloo
for a reminder in December 2004 to reply to a post "2004 Directed amp look like Brand X" from Howdy Doody. Jua - OldOneEy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- CarAudioForum.com - Usenet Gateway w/over one million posts online View this thread: http://www.caraudioforum.com/showthr...threadid=16757 |
#83
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Directed Amplifiers
What is your point other then being a noob?
In article m, OldOneEye wrote: It seems at this point that I should be setting my calendar in Outlook for a reminder in December 2004 to reply to a post "2004 Directed amps look like Brand X" from Howdy Doody. Juan |
#84
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Directed Amplifiers
What is your point other then being a noob?
Psssst. Captain, its the other way around. |
#85
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Directed Amplifiers
And this is coming from a noob that uses AOL, poor child.
In article , othanks (Soundfreak03) wrote: What is your point other then being a noob? Psssst. Captain, its the other way around. |
#86
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Directed Amplifiers
I'd be looking for a discussion on what the new Precision Power amps
look like, myself ... JD OldOneEye wrote: It seems at this point that I should be setting my calendar in Outlook for a reminder in December 2004 to reply to a post "2004 Directed amps look like Brand X" from Howdy Doody. Juan -- OldOneEye ------------------------------------------------------------------------ CarAudioForum.com - Usenet Gateway w/over one million posts online! View this thread: http://www.caraudioforum.com/showthr...hreadid=167571 |
#87
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Directed Amplifiers
You are making assumptions that are in fact not in evidence. I know, I was
there at just about the beginning. Or, I have long friendships with those who were there at the beginning of PPI. Those very same people that you say became PPI from ORION also were from OHM TECH that did Rockford-Fosgate shop work. By your way of thinking, PPI should also look like RF amplifiers. Or failing that you must also believe that ORION "knocked-off" RF amplifiers of that era. And they did. Square with Fins. You should check your dimensions more carefully and read what I said. The Internals of a PPI amplifier were nothing like that of an ORION...NOTHING AT ALL! They did start completely fresh. In fact, the Mechanical Engineer at Orion stayed at ORION and PPI hired a new person as their ME. I believe that only one Audio Engineer that was Originally at OHM TECH left ORION to work at PPI. I know him very, very well and he would tell you that the amplifiers were quite dissimilar. Different Power Supply, different output section, etc. Yeah, the outsides "looked" similar, square with fins. You somehow seem to believe that all that were at ORION were cleft in two and became 2 exact copies. One to stay behind at ORION and one to leave to form PPI. That is not the case. It took some time for PPI to make new contacts, and to find sources of raw materials, recruit employees, etc. On another note, had PPI stolen from ORION any intellectual property, then they would have been sued into oblivion by ORION. Remember, ORION had about a 2 year head start. They had capital and profits. Why did they not get sued by ORION? It was because they were completely different. GET IT! PPI was in business for 17 years before going into decline. That says something. John Andreen Captain Howdy wrote: This would explain why early PPI amplifiers looked like Orion GX knock offs, as I have stated. Since these were the same people that created Orion to begin with, when they left Orion and started PPI, I highly doubt that they trashed every bit of knowledge they had and agreed on and started totally fresh at PPI. They were more then likely buying parts from the same suppliers along with their extrusion dies and applying knowledge that they already had from Orion. Bottom line is when you have Orion's people building amplifiers, you get Orion amplifiers with changes that both sides could not agree on as a single team, such as the fully regulated power supplies as stated by John Andreen. Just how wrong was I by saying that early PPI amplifiers looked like Orion GX knock offs? As it turns out early PPI amplifiers were more of an Orion knock off then I thought, which is totally fine now that I am aware of the fact that they were made by the same people. |
#88
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Directed Amplifiers
Thanks! I have met a few of the characters that were part of that
hsitory, and had heard some pieces of those details over the years, but not in a cohesive way. Only thing I saw there that I am still curious about is the full PWM going that far back with PPI - seems to me they made loosely regulated amps early on, and on other occasions throughout the history of the brand. For example, when I was an Orion dealer back in 87/88, we also dabbled in PPI amps and processors, around the period when they had models like the 2075, and I seem to recall an asymmetric 4 channel model called the 4030 or something like that. I don't recall those pieces having the extra transformer you'd expect from a fully regulated design. In the PCX family, only the larger models are fully regulated - the smaller ones are loosely regulated, i.e. "adaptive PWM power supply" as Marketing calls it :-) JD John Andreen wrote: John Durbin wrote: I never said ay of those guys were engineers, but they damn sure know they don't have to hide from dealers that want to return entire shipments of defective amplifiers any more ... I think perhaps you are extrapolating a little further than my remarks actually warranted. You clearly know the inside story from the pre-ADST days far better than I do, but if you go back and read what I wrote it was clearly referencing the conditions at ADST when we acquired them. As to the heat sink commonality, you tell me: did one of the companies produce for the other or not? Did one of the two steal an extrusion design from the other? The two examples Captain Howdy was harping about were clearly not what he claimed. Feel free to provide more specifics if you ware arguing in his favor on that point. JD Mr Durbin, I have gone back as far as I can remember and things kind of go like this. A company called OHM TECH used to do contract board manufacturing for Rockford Fosgate. After a period of time, these individuals at OHM TECH saw an opportunity to make money by building their own product. This handful of people started ORION. Time went by and several of the original people had a falling out. They left and started Precision Power Inc. The biggest differences were over topologies. Orion preferred fixed duty cycle quasi-regulated power supplies. PPI preferred fully regulated PWM regulation schemes, hence the name Precision Power. At this juncture, I am pretty sure that only a handful of companies were using PWM. There was a gigantic rift between ORION and PPI that only ended when PPI and ORION were both under ADST roof. A little known factoid is that all ORION amplifiers made up until the "Spock's Coffin" line had vestigial elements left over in the Power supply section that are of little or no use in a MOSFET power supply. In fact, these elements often have a substantial deleterious effect on the amplifier. In short they can blow up just "because". PPI was not without its share of internal strife either. An inside power play between the 2 top shareholders resulted in a split that created EXTANT amplifiers. EXTANT even used PPI's first building as their base of operations. This was largely due in fact to Mr Scoon still owning the building. PPI produced amplifiers for Crutchfield, Jensen, Sansui, MTX and your speaker guy's (Doctor Dave) ex-employer. Not once did they produce products for ORION. Nor did they ever conspire with them and use their heatsinks. PPI extrusions have always been "their own" and the extrusion dies were always purchased outright. Does this help? John Andreen |
#89
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Directed Amplifiers
that's the guy...
JD John Andreen wrote: John, Could that be a one Carlos C who might have worked at Rockford Fosgate. If so, He is quite the Audio Engineer. John Andreen |
#90
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Directed Amplifiers
It's always been amazing to me how much variety, creativity, and
ingenuity is scattered through the history of car audio by the people that started in that one "little" part of the country. Quite a cauldron of invention... JD John Andreen wrote: You are making assumptions that are in fact not in evidence. I know, I was there at just about the beginning. Or, I have long friendships with those who were there at the beginning of PPI. Those very same people that you say became PPI from ORION also were from OHM TECH that did Rockford-Fosgate shop work. By your way of thinking, PPI should also look like RF amplifiers. Or failing that you must also believe that ORION "knocked-off" RF amplifiers of that era. And they did. Square with Fins. You should check your dimensions more carefully and read what I said. The Internals of a PPI amplifier were nothing like that of an ORION...NOTHING AT ALL! They did start completely fresh. In fact, the Mechanical Engineer at Orion stayed at ORION and PPI hired a new person as their ME. I believe that only one Audio Engineer that was Originally at OHM TECH left ORION to work at PPI. I know him very, very well and he would tell you that the amplifiers were quite dissimilar. Different Power Supply, different output section, etc. Yeah, the outsides "looked" similar, square with fins. You somehow seem to believe that all that were at ORION were cleft in two and became 2 exact copies. One to stay behind at ORION and one to leave to form PPI. That is not the case. It took some time for PPI to make new contacts, and to find sources of raw materials, recruit employees, etc. On another note, had PPI stolen from ORION any intellectual property, then they would have been sued into oblivion by ORION. Remember, ORION had about a 2 year head start. They had capital and profits. Why did they not get sued by ORION? It was because they were completely different. GET IT! PPI was in business for 17 years before going into decline. That says something. John Andreen Captain Howdy wrote: This would explain why early PPI amplifiers looked like Orion GX knock offs, as I have stated. Since these were the same people that created Orion to begin with, when they left Orion and started PPI, I highly doubt that they trashed every bit of knowledge they had and agreed on and started totally fresh at PPI. They were more then likely buying parts from the same suppliers along with their extrusion dies and applying knowledge that they already had from Orion. Bottom line is when you have Orion's people building amplifiers, you get Orion amplifiers with changes that both sides could not agree on as a single team, such as the fully regulated power supplies as stated by John Andreen. Just how wrong was I by saying that early PPI amplifiers looked like Orion GX knock offs? As it turns out early PPI amplifiers were more of an Orion knock off then I thought, which is totally fine now that I am aware of the fact that they were made by the same people. |
#91
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Directed Amplifiers
Tell me he didn't just post that............
This guy's even dumber than I thought. Paul Vina "Captain Howdy" wrote in message ... What is your point other then being a noob? In article m, OldOneEye wrote: It seems at this point that I should be setting my calendar in Outlook for a reminder in December 2004 to reply to a post "2004 Directed amps look like Brand X" from Howdy Doody. Juan |
#92
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Directed Amplifiers
And tell me I didn't just read this................
OMG it just keeps going. Paul Vina "Captain Howdy" wrote in message ... And this is coming from a noob that uses AOL, poor child. In article , othanks (Soundfreak03) wrote: What is your point other then being a noob? Psssst. Captain, its the other way around. |
#93
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Directed Amplifiers
John it doesn't matter what the new Precision Power amps look like, I was just trying to point out that the early Precision Power amps looked too much like the Orion GX line. Now we both know the real reason why. Done, end of story. In article , John Durbin wrote: I'd be looking for a discussion on what the new Precision Power amps look like, myself ... JD |
#94
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Directed Amplifiers
Dumb, why because I pointed out something that none of you were able to see ?
In article 1c6Fb.608975$Tr4.1584825@attbi_s03, "Paul Vina" wrote: Tell me he didn't just post that............ This guy's even dumber than I thought. Paul Vina "Captain Howdy" wrote in message . .. What is your point other then being a noob? In article m, OldOneEye wrote: It seems at this point that I should be setting my calendar in Outlook for a reminder in December 2004 to reply to a post "2004 Directed amps look like Brand X" from Howdy Doody. Juan |
#95
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Directed Amplifiers
And this is coming from a noob that uses AOL, poor child.
SO? Who cares. The aol newsgroup browser is easy to use and strings messages how I LIKE them. And I am no noob. How long have you been posting here? A few weeks? So go back to McDonalds your shift should be starting soon, and be sure you take your latest subscription to the car audio rag so you can learn even more than you already know. Oh and be sure you tell us how Rockford copied Kicker and how PPI copied Pyle or whatever irrelevent BS you like to spew. Les |
#96
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Directed Amplifiers
Oh. OK then.
Thought ya meant something that made em sound better. :-) I always liked MTX as a great bang for the buck brand. I even had a system with MTX amps for a while. The old Thunder 2300 and a Thunder 2175. -- John Spagnolo - teamROCS #016 Multi Media Xpress Car Audio www.mmxpress.com "It's about the music stupid!" John "Batvette" Lucier 98' R.A.C. FAQ: http://www.mobileaudio.com/rac-faq/ JL Audio Tech Section: http://www.jlaudio.com/tutorials MMXpress Tech Section: http://www.mmxpress.com/technical/ "Captain Howdy" wrote in message ... Surface mount technology. Isolated mainboard, isolating the power supply, amp channels, crossover, gains and inputs to it's own cells reducing the size of the mainboard resulting in a smaller amplifier foot over poke through technology. Also producing a much cleaner look eliminating jumper wires and power rails. Have you looked inside a PPI amplifier lately? Lets not forget about my favorite MTX amplifier advance in their class D line, The compression circuit, protecting the subwoofer during amplifier clipping at high volume levels compressing peak spikes. The only thing that I would add is a adjustable compression ratio. Advances like what? |
#97
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Directed Amplifiers
I agree with the "done" part, but my comments below were directed not to
you but to that "n00b", Old One Eye ... JD Captain Howdy wrote: John it doesn't matter what the new Precision Power amps look like, I was just trying to point out that the early Precision Power amps looked too much like the Orion GX line. Now we both know the real reason why. Done, end of story. In article , John Durbin wrote: I'd be looking for a discussion on what the new Precision Power amps look like, myself ... JD |
#98
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Directed Amplifiers
What, that Freaks a noob? You ARE on crack. He's been here as long as I
can remember and I've been here on and off for at least 4 or 5 years. Paul Vina "Captain Howdy" wrote in message ... Dumb, why because I pointed out something that none of you were able to see ? In article 1c6Fb.608975$Tr4.1584825@attbi_s03, "Paul Vina" wrote: Tell me he didn't just post that............ This guy's even dumber than I thought. Paul Vina "Captain Howdy" wrote in message . .. What is your point other then being a noob? In article m, OldOneEye wrote: It seems at this point that I should be setting my calendar in Outlook for a reminder in December 2004 to reply to a post "2004 Directed amps look like Brand X" from Howdy Doody. Juan |
#99
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Directed Amplifiers
but to that "n00b", Old One Eye ...
Yeah, where the heck did THAT guy come from? People just be poppin out the woodwork. -- John Spagnolo - teamROCS #016 Multi Media Xpress Car Audio www.mmxpress.com "It's about the music stupid!" John "Batvette" Lucier 98' R.A.C. FAQ: http://www.mobileaudio.com/rac-faq/ JL Audio Tech Section: http://www.jlaudio.com/tutorials MMXpress Tech Section: http://www.mmxpress.com/technical/ "John Durbin" wrote in message ... I agree with the "done" part, but my comments below were directed not to you but to that "n00b", Old One Eye ... JD Captain Howdy wrote: John it doesn't matter what the new Precision Power amps look like, I was just trying to point out that the early Precision Power amps looked too much like the Orion GX line. Now we both know the real reason why. Done, end of story. In article , John Durbin wrote: I'd be looking for a discussion on what the new Precision Power amps look like, myself ... JD |
#100
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Directed Amplifiers
Their very, very first units were self-oscillators, in reality there was no
PWM chips yet made or were cost prohibitive. Can't remember when the decision was made to go regulated with a controller. You are right though, the really small amps (below 100 Watts) were "loosely regulated" (hate the phrasology). Mostly due to PCB real estate for the secondary storage device (large Inductor). PPI even produced a unit called internally as the "Peanut". Might have been 10-12 Watts/ channel whose heatsink was only about 3-4" long. But very early on, there was a push internally for for PWM P/S as there was the issue of excessive heat caused by high idle currents on the larger amplifiers when using fixed duty cycle Pulse width power supplies. There was also the issue of the protection afforded a regulated design. In general, I try not to use the term "loosely regulated" when describing a power supply as there can be loosely regulated PWM supplies and there can be tightly regulated fixed duty cycle power supplies. A better way is to always describe the topology. PWM Fixed frequency forward converter, Flyback converter, etc. PPI PWM power supplies are mostly of the Fixed frequency forward converter type. The PPI2350 is the exception as it is a PWM full H-bridge converter. This spreads the "electrical stress" on the MOSFET devices but also can fail spectacularly when cross conduction occurs. JA John Durbin wrote: Thanks! I have met a few of the characters that were part of that hsitory, and had heard some pieces of those details over the years, but not in a cohesive way. Only thing I saw there that I am still curious about is the full PWM going that far back with PPI - seems to me they made loosely regulated amps early on, and on other occasions throughout the history of the brand. For example, when I was an Orion dealer back in 87/88, we also dabbled in PPI amps and processors, around the period when they had models like the 2075, and I seem to recall an asymmetric 4 channel model called the 4030 or something like that. I don't recall those pieces having the extra transformer you'd expect from a fully regulated design. In the PCX family, only the larger models are fully regulated - the smaller ones are loosely regulated, i.e. "adaptive PWM power supply" as Marketing calls it :-) JD John Andreen wrote: John Durbin wrote: I never said ay of those guys were engineers, but they damn sure know they don't have to hide from dealers that want to return entire shipments of defective amplifiers any more ... I think perhaps you are extrapolating a little further than my remarks actually warranted. You clearly know the inside story from the pre-ADST days far better than I do, but if you go back and read what I wrote it was clearly referencing the conditions at ADST when we acquired them. As to the heat sink commonality, you tell me: did one of the companies produce for the other or not? Did one of the two steal an extrusion design from the other? The two examples Captain Howdy was harping about were clearly not what he claimed. Feel free to provide more specifics if you ware arguing in his favor on that point. JD Mr Durbin, I have gone back as far as I can remember and things kind of go like this. A company called OHM TECH used to do contract board manufacturing for Rockford Fosgate. After a period of time, these individuals at OHM TECH saw an opportunity to make money by building their own product. This handful of people started ORION. Time went by and several of the original people had a falling out. They left and started Precision Power Inc. The biggest differences were over topologies. Orion preferred fixed duty cycle quasi-regulated power supplies. PPI preferred fully regulated PWM regulation schemes, hence the name Precision Power. At this juncture, I am pretty sure that only a handful of companies were using PWM. There was a gigantic rift between ORION and PPI that only ended when PPI and ORION were both under ADST roof. A little known factoid is that all ORION amplifiers made up until the "Spock's Coffin" line had vestigial elements left over in the Power supply section that are of little or no use in a MOSFET power supply. In fact, these elements often have a substantial deleterious effect on the amplifier. In short they can blow up just "because". PPI was not without its share of internal strife either. An inside power play between the 2 top shareholders resulted in a split that created EXTANT amplifiers. EXTANT even used PPI's first building as their base of operations. This was largely due in fact to Mr Scoon still owning the building. PPI produced amplifiers for Crutchfield, Jensen, Sansui, MTX and your speaker guy's (Doctor Dave) ex-employer. Not once did they produce products for ORION. Nor did they ever conspire with them and use their heatsinks. PPI extrusions have always been "their own" and the extrusion dies were always purchased outright. Does this help? John Andreen |
#101
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Directed Amplifiers
He was always quiet at RF so we didn't converse much. But I do
remember that he did good work. JA John Durbin wrote: that's the guy... JD John Andreen wrote: John, Could that be a one Carlos C who might have worked at Rockford Fosgate. If so, He is quite the Audio Engineer. John Andreen |
#102
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Directed Amplifiers
Here's another guy popping out of the woodwork.
I've been reparing Orion PPI and A/D/S/ amplifiers for over 10 years as a hobby. It is not a conicidence that these amplifiers are almost exactly designed the same from a circuitry standpoint. All 3 use the same output fets which are Motorola Semiconductor (2N6488 and 2N6491) (M) and either Fairchild or International Semiconductor on the power supplies. (F) (I~R). All cream of the crop as far as High Tolerance Mosfets, Fets, or Jfets. If I had to pick out the best amplifier that was ever made by the ADST family of companies, it would be the GX line from Orion by far. Ultra simplistic and fuctionallity that some of you may not realize. The top dog GX line, the 2350gx and 4100gx, are actually 2 amplifiers in 1 chassis. The 2350gx actually has the 400BDG module right inside. In this case its called the Input BD, which takes a single input channel (R+L) and splits into 2 channels, and inverting (180 degree phase) 1 side to each of the two amplifiers in the chassis. "John Spagnolo MMXpress.com" wrote in message ... but to that "n00b", Old One Eye ... Yeah, where the heck did THAT guy come from? People just be poppin out the woodwork. -- John Spagnolo - teamROCS #016 Multi Media Xpress Car Audio www.mmxpress.com "It's about the music stupid!" John "Batvette" Lucier 98' R.A.C. FAQ: http://www.mobileaudio.com/rac-faq/ JL Audio Tech Section: http://www.jlaudio.com/tutorials MMXpress Tech Section: http://www.mmxpress.com/technical/ "John Durbin" wrote in message ... I agree with the "done" part, but my comments below were directed not to you but to that "n00b", Old One Eye ... JD Captain Howdy wrote: John it doesn't matter what the new Precision Power amps look like, I was just trying to point out that the early Precision Power amps looked too much like the Orion GX line. Now we both know the real reason why. Done, end of story. In article , John Durbin wrote: I'd be looking for a discussion on what the new Precision Power amps look like, myself ... JD |
#103
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Directed Amplifiers
??? 2N6488 and 2N6491 are complementary bipolar transistors, not MOSFET's:
http://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/2N6487-D.PDF Orion used them in the early days for switching power supplies, even after many companies had started making the change to FET's. I suspect design elements relating to that are what John was referring to when he mentioned "vestiges" that persisted in Orion supplies up until the current product line. And I think you must not have followed the discussion about design philosophy or lineage, relative to these brands borrowing designs from each other. This comment: "these amplifiers are almost exactly designed the same from a circuitry standpoint" is just not accurate. You need to look beyond the shared brands for some internal parts - which is hardly surprising, there are only so many semiconductor brands to choose from - and consider the very different power supply or output stage configurations, not to mention different front end topology. JD golds wrote: Here's another guy popping out of the woodwork. I've been reparing Orion PPI and A/D/S/ amplifiers for over 10 years as a hobby. It is not a conicidence that these amplifiers are almost exactly designed the same from a circuitry standpoint. All 3 use the same output fets which are Motorola Semiconductor (2N6488 and 2N6491) (M) and either Fairchild or International Semiconductor on the power supplies. (F) (I~R). All cream of the crop as far as High Tolerance Mosfets, Fets, or Jfets. If I had to pick out the best amplifier that was ever made by the ADST family of companies, it would be the GX line from Orion by far. Ultra simplistic and fuctionallity that some of you may not realize. The top dog GX line, the 2350gx and 4100gx, are actually 2 amplifiers in 1 chassis. The 2350gx actually has the 400BDG module right inside. In this case its called the Input BD, which takes a single input channel (R+L) and splits into 2 channels, and inverting (180 degree phase) 1 side to each of the two amplifiers in the chassis. "John Spagnolo MMXpress.com" wrote in message ... but to that "n00b", Old One Eye ... Yeah, where the heck did THAT guy come from? People just be poppin out the woodwork. -- John Spagnolo - teamROCS #016 Multi Media Xpress Car Audio www.mmxpress.com "It's about the music stupid!" John "Batvette" Lucier 98' R.A.C. FAQ: http://www.mobileaudio.com/rac-faq/ JL Audio Tech Section: http://www.jlaudio.com/tutorials MMXpress Tech Section: http://www.mmxpress.com/technical/ "John Durbin" wrote in message .. . I agree with the "done" part, but my comments below were directed not to you but to that "n00b", Old One Eye ... JD Captain Howdy wrote: John it doesn't matter what the new Precision Power amps look like, I was just trying to point out that the early Precision Power amps looked too much like the Orion GX line. Now we both know the real reason why. Done, end of story. In article , John Durbin wrote: I'd be looking for a discussion on what the new Precision Power amps look like, myself ... JD |
#104
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Directed Amplifiers
Back in the day, I had an Orion 280Gx and 2150GX they were both rock sold
amps. Even now days I would still take 2250SX or 2100HCCA, even more so a 500GS over most of the new stuff out there today. Orion also had a purple NT line which I like very much. Back in the day those amps were real pro gear without any crossovers, fuses, speaker protection and polarity protection just to name some. If I had to pick out the best amplifier that was ever made by the ADST family of companies, it would be the GX line from Orion by far. Ultra simplistic and fuctionallity that some of you may not realize. The top dog GX line, the 2350gx and 4100gx, are actually 2 amplifiers in 1 chassis. The 2350gx actually has the 400BDG module right inside. In this case its called the Input BD, which takes a single input channel (R+L) and splits into 2 channels, and inverting (180 degree phase) 1 side to each of the two amplifiers in the chassis. |
#105
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Directed Amplifiers
I just like the fact that MTX is doing their own thing in regards to building
amplifiers. Sort of like Blaupunkt and their new class T amplifiers. In article , "John Spagnolo MMXpress.com" wrote: Oh. OK then. Thought ya meant something that made em sound better. :-) I always liked MTX as a great bang for the buck brand. I even had a system with MTX amps for a while. The old Thunder 2300 and a Thunder 2175. |
#106
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Directed Amplifiers
Are you really this dense? Forgive me if someone has already said that
a few times (hey, I use the CarAudioForum gateway for RAC so it might be a bit old). So far, this has come out. PPI and Orion use different heatsinks, made from different dies. Ok, so that part goes out the window. They used different topologies. Changing from Orion's topology to PPI's topology would probably require starting from scratch I would imagine. Like trying to make a front wheel drive car rear wheel drive or an automatic car into a stick. Better off starting from scratch than modifying I would think. They DON'T look the same. Look at the pictures. I have owned and sold several of both series of amps and trust me they are not the same. If you put a GX280 back to back with a PPI 2075AM or 2075M they would not even be close when it comes to most of the measurements. They have different connectors for power. Also, the PPI amps didn't need a bridging adaptor like the Orion amps. They use a different heatsink, with a different footprint (so it wasn't like the Sansui and PPI models that were similar sizes with a different look, but similar foot prints). I still don't see why you fail to see what to all of us is so obvious. Some employees at Orion left because they didn't like the way things were being made. Do you think they would start a company to make things exactly like Orion did before them? No, to ensure they didn't get called Orion knock-offs, they used different heatsinks (back then, everyone had a black heatsink with few exceptions) so claiming that because both PPI amps and Orion amps were black so they must be similar is a plain wrong. Juan Captain Howdy wrote: *This would explain why early PPI amplifiers looked like Orion GX knock offs, as I have stated. Since these were the same people that created Orion to begin with, when they left Orion and started PPI, I highly doubt that they trashed every bit of knowledge they had and agreed on and started totally fresh at PPI. They were more then likely buying parts from the same suppliers along with their extrusion dies and applying knowledge that they already had from Orion. Bottom line is when you have Orion's people building amplifiers, you get Orion amplifiers with changes that both sides could not agree on as a single team, such as the fully regulated power supplies as stated by John Andreen. Just how wrong was I by saying that early PPI amplifiers looked like Orion GX knock offs? As it turns out early PPI amplifiers were more of an Orion knock off then I thought, which is totally fine now that I am aware of the fact that they were made by the same people. I have gone back as far as I can remember and things kind of go like this. A company called OHM TECH used to do contract board manufacturing for Rockford Fosgate. After a period of time, these individuals at OHM TECH saw an opportunity to make money by building their own product. This handful of people started ORION. Time went by and several of the original people had a falling out. They left and started Precision Power Inc. The biggest differences were over topologies. Orion preferred fixed duty cycle quasi-regulated power supplies. PPI preferred fully regulated PWM regulation schemes, hence the name Precision Power. At this juncture, I am pretty sure that only a handful of companies were using PWM. There was a gigantic rift between ORION and PPI that only ended when PPI and ORION were both under ADST roof. A little known factoid is that all ORION amplifiers made up until the "Spock's Coffin" line had vestigial elements left over in the Power supply section that are of little or no use in a MOSFET power supply. In fact, these elements often have a substantial deleterious effect on the amplifier. In short they can blow up just "because". * -- OldOneEye ------------------------------------------------------------------------ CarAudioForum.com - Usenet Gateway w/over one million posts online! View this thread: http://www.caraudioforum.com/showthr...hreadid=167571 |
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Directed Amplifiers
Cuz no one else has done class T. Can you say Alpine? I know you can, you
think everyone rips them off for all their designs. I guess Blaupunkt ripped them off too! Dork. Paul Vina "Captain Howdy" wrote in message ... I just like the fact that MTX is doing their own thing in regards to building amplifiers. Sort of like Blaupunkt and their new class T amplifiers. In article , "John Spagnolo MMXpress.com" wrote: Oh. OK then. Thought ya meant something that made em sound better. :-) I always liked MTX as a great bang for the buck brand. I even had a system with MTX amps for a while. The old Thunder 2300 and a Thunder 2175. |
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Directed Amplifiers
Class T technology is owned by TriPath Technologies, Inc and
is leased/licensed to companies such as Alpine and Blaupunkt. While most TriPath licensees use single TriPath devices for each channel, Blaupunkt uses two per channel. You have spent way too many years with your head under a dashboard. The lack of blood flow to your brain isn't doing you any justice. Dork In article e%JFb.625110$Tr4.1618099@attbi_s03, "Paul Vina" wrote: Cuz no one else has done class T. Can you say Alpine? I know you can, you think everyone rips them off for all their designs. I guess Blaupunkt ripped them off too! Dork. Paul Vina "Captain Howdy" wrote in message ... I just like the fact that MTX is doing their own thing in regards to building amplifiers. Sort of like Blaupunkt and their new class T amplifiers. In article , "John Spagnolo MMXpress.com" wrote: Oh. OK then. Thought ya meant something that made em sound better. :-) I always liked MTX as a great bang for the buck brand. I even had a system with MTX amps for a while. The old Thunder 2300 and a Thunder 2175. |
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Directed Amplifiers
I guess that you missed gold's post.
I've been reparing Orion PPI and A/D/S/ amplifiers for over 10 years as a hobby. It is not a conicidence that these amplifiers are almost exactly designed the same from a circuitry standpoint. All 3 use the same output fets which are Motorola Semiconductor (2N6488 and 2N6491) (M) and either Fairchild or International Semiconductor on the power supplies. (F) (I~R). All cream of the crop as far as High Tolerance Mosfets, Fets, or Jfets. I still don't see why you fail to see what to all of us is so obvious. Some employees at Orion left because they didn't like the way things were being made. Do you think they would start a company to make things exactly like Orion did before them? No, to ensure they didn't get called Orion knock-offs, they used different heatsinks (back then, everyone had a black heatsink with few exceptions) so claiming that because both PPI amps and Orion amps were black so they must be similar is a plain wrong. Juan |
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Directed Amplifiers
I guess that you missed gold's post.
I've been reparing Orion PPI and A/D/S/ amplifiers for over 10 years as a hobby. It is not a conicidence that these amplifiers are almost exactly designed the same from a circuitry standpoint. From a circuitry standpoint? You mean a parts standpoint I think. So that takes care of about 2% of the process. What about the other 98%? |
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Directed Amplifiers
I already know all this. Dork.
Paul Vina "Captain Howdy" wrote in message ... Class T technology is owned by TriPath Technologies, Inc and is leased/licensed to companies such as Alpine and Blaupunkt. While most TriPath licensees use single TriPath devices for each channel, Blaupunkt uses two per channel. You have spent way too many years with your head under a dashboard. The lack of blood flow to your brain isn't doing you any justice. Dork In article e%JFb.625110$Tr4.1618099@attbi_s03, "Paul Vina" wrote: Cuz no one else has done class T. Can you say Alpine? I know you can, you think everyone rips them off for all their designs. I guess Blaupunkt ripped them off too! Dork. Paul Vina "Captain Howdy" wrote in message ... I just like the fact that MTX is doing their own thing in regards to building amplifiers. Sort of like Blaupunkt and their new class T amplifiers. In article , "John Spagnolo MMXpress.com" wrote: Oh. OK then. Thought ya meant something that made em sound better. :-) I always liked MTX as a great bang for the buck brand. I even had a system with MTX amps for a while. The old Thunder 2300 and a Thunder 2175. |
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Directed Amplifiers
Just to let you know
2N6488 and 2N6491 devices are not FETS or MOSFETS they are BJT's. MOSFETS are used in power supplies as they are easier to control for high current switching and BJT's are used in output sections mostly due to PNP/NPN complementary pair parameter symmetry. It is also said that BJT's make for "smoother" sound than MOSFET's. Both PPI and Orion used these devices early on and possibly currently. They are good devices. Rated at 80V@15A ( not continuous ). They were once equally well at home in the power supply section as well as output sections as long as the rail voltages of the outputs were less than +/-40V. Fairchild makes good stuff, but the internal die size of many of their devices is smaller than their counterparts. Means, they are not as good at handling overstress. JA golds wrote: Here's another guy popping out of the woodwork. I've been reparing Orion PPI and A/D/S/ amplifiers for over 10 years as a hobby. It is not a conicidence that these amplifiers are almost exactly designed the same from a circuitry standpoint. All 3 use the same output fets which are Motorola Semiconductor (2N6488 and 2N6491) (M) and either Fairchild or International Semiconductor on the power supplies. (F) (I~R). All cream of the crop as far as High Tolerance Mosfets, Fets, or Jfets. If I had to pick out the best amplifier that was ever made by the ADST family of companies, it would be the GX line from Orion by far. Ultra simplistic and fuctionallity that some of you may not realize. The top dog GX line, the 2350gx and 4100gx, are actually 2 amplifiers in 1 chassis. The 2350gx actually has the 400BDG module right inside. In this case its called the Input BD, which takes a single input channel (R+L) and splits into 2 channels, and inverting (180 degree phase) 1 side to each of the two amplifiers in the chassis. "John Spagnolo MMXpress.com" wrote in message ... but to that "n00b", Old One Eye ... Yeah, where the heck did THAT guy come from? People just be poppin out the woodwork. -- John Spagnolo - teamROCS #016 Multi Media Xpress Car Audio www.mmxpress.com "It's about the music stupid!" John "Batvette" Lucier 98' R.A.C. FAQ: http://www.mobileaudio.com/rac-faq/ JL Audio Tech Section: http://www.jlaudio.com/tutorials MMXpress Tech Section: http://www.mmxpress.com/technical/ "John Durbin" wrote in message ... I agree with the "done" part, but my comments below were directed not to you but to that "n00b", Old One Eye ... JD Captain Howdy wrote: John it doesn't matter what the new Precision Power amps look like, I was just trying to point out that the early Precision Power amps looked too much like the Orion GX line. Now we both know the real reason why. Done, end of story. In article , John Durbin wrote: I'd be looking for a discussion on what the new Precision Power amps look like, myself ... JD |
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Directed Amplifiers
Yeah, but much of that was wrong... you need to pick better role models
grasshopper. JD Captain Howdy wrote: I guess that you missed gold's post. I've been reparing Orion PPI and A/D/S/ amplifiers for over 10 years as a hobby. It is not a conicidence that these amplifiers are almost exactly designed the same from a circuitry standpoint. All 3 use the same output fets which are Motorola Semiconductor (2N6488 and 2N6491) (M) and either Fairchild or International Semiconductor on the power supplies. (F) (I~R). All cream of the crop as far as High Tolerance Mosfets, Fets, or Jfets. I still don't see why you fail to see what to all of us is so obvious. Some employees at Orion left because they didn't like the way things were being made. Do you think they would start a company to make things exactly like Orion did before them? No, to ensure they didn't get called Orion knock-offs, they used different heatsinks (back then, everyone had a black heatsink with few exceptions) so claiming that because both PPI amps and Orion amps were black so they must be similar is a plain wrong. Juan |
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Directed Amplifiers
I suppose if I showed you that same design, available for purchase by
pretty much any company with a checkbook, in a catalog from the factory, with a generic heat sink design wrapped around it, you would still think it was "doing their own thing", eh? Also, the licensing is covered by buying the chips ... there's no separate "technology" agreement. If there is one, it's with the factory, not the brand owner - like Blaupunkt. Given a couple of other larger companies offer similar chip-based solutions, Tripath wouldn't have gotten very far with a licensing requirement. JD Captain Howdy wrote: Class T technology is owned by TriPath Technologies, Inc and is leased/licensed to companies such as Alpine and Blaupunkt. While most TriPath licensees use single TriPath devices for each channel, Blaupunkt uses two per channel. You have spent way too many years with your head under a dashboard. The lack of blood flow to your brain isn't doing you any justice. Dork In article e%JFb.625110$Tr4.1618099@attbi_s03, "Paul Vina" wrote: Cuz no one else has done class T. Can you say Alpine? I know you can, you think everyone rips them off for all their designs. I guess Blaupunkt ripped them off too! Dork. Paul Vina "Captain Howdy" wrote in message .. . I just like the fact that MTX is doing their own thing in regards to building amplifiers. Sort of like Blaupunkt and their new class T amplifiers. In article , "John Spagnolo MMXpress.com" wrote: Oh. OK then. Thought ya meant something that made em sound better. :-) I always liked MTX as a great bang for the buck brand. I even had a system with MTX amps for a while. The old Thunder 2300 and a Thunder 2175. |
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Directed Amplifiers
Haven't been used in either brand for some time - the newer high
current, low rds FET's just work better in switching supplies. JD John Andreen wrote: Just to let you know 2N6488 and 2N6491 devices are not FETS or MOSFETS they are BJT's. MOSFETS are used in power supplies as they are easier to control for high current switching and BJT's are used in output sections mostly due to PNP/NPN complementary pair parameter symmetry. It is also said that BJT's make for "smoother" sound than MOSFET's. Both PPI and Orion used these devices early on and possibly currently. They are good devices. Rated at 80V@15A ( not continuous ). They were once equally well at home in the power supply section as well as output sections as long as the rail voltages of the outputs were less than +/-40V. Fairchild makes good stuff, but the internal die size of many of their devices is smaller than their counterparts. Means, they are not as good at handling overstress. JA golds wrote: Here's another guy popping out of the woodwork. I've been reparing Orion PPI and A/D/S/ amplifiers for over 10 years as a hobby. It is not a conicidence that these amplifiers are almost exactly designed the same from a circuitry standpoint. All 3 use the same output fets which are Motorola Semiconductor (2N6488 and 2N6491) (M) and either Fairchild or International Semiconductor on the power supplies. (F) (I~R). All cream of the crop as far as High Tolerance Mosfets, Fets, or Jfets. If I had to pick out the best amplifier that was ever made by the ADST family of companies, it would be the GX line from Orion by far. Ultra simplistic and fuctionallity that some of you may not realize. The top dog GX line, the 2350gx and 4100gx, are actually 2 amplifiers in 1 chassis. The 2350gx actually has the 400BDG module right inside. In this case its called the Input BD, which takes a single input channel (R+L) and splits into 2 channels, and inverting (180 degree phase) 1 side to each of the two amplifiers in the chassis. "John Spagnolo MMXpress.com" wrote in message . .. but to that "n00b", Old One Eye ... Yeah, where the heck did THAT guy come from? People just be poppin out the woodwork. -- John Spagnolo - teamROCS #016 Multi Media Xpress Car Audio www.mmxpress.com "It's about the music stupid!" John "Batvette" Lucier 98' R.A.C. FAQ: http://www.mobileaudio.com/rac-faq/ JL Audio Tech Section: http://www.jlaudio.com/tutorials MMXpress Tech Section: http://www.mmxpress.com/technical/ "John Durbin" wrote in message . .. I agree with the "done" part, but my comments below were directed not to you but to that "n00b", Old One Eye ... JD Captain Howdy wrote: John it doesn't matter what the new Precision Power amps look like, I was just trying to point out that the early Precision Power amps looked too much like the Orion GX line. Now we both know the real reason why. Done, end of story. In article , John Durbin wrote: I'd be looking for a discussion on what the new Precision Power amps look like, myself ... JD |
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Directed Amplifiers
Care to explain how you came up with that number? Parts and engineering, after
all PPI was made by Orion ex-employees In article , "Mark Zarella" wrote: I guess that you missed gold's post. I've been reparing Orion PPI and A/D/S/ amplifiers for over 10 years as a hobby. It is not a conicidence that these amplifiers are almost exactly designed the same from a circuitry standpoint. From a circuitry standpoint? You mean a parts standpoint I think. So that takes care of about 2% of the process. What about the other 98%? |
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Directed Amplifiers
Care to point out just how much of it was wrong, you're not really telling me
much. I thought you made it clear in your posts that you don't know jack about their products of the yesteryears. I'm not saying that PPI gear is bad, well other then their new junk compared to their old gear. PPI gear is cloned in more ways then one, but that has been pointed out already in the above posts. That's my opinion along with DEI alarms being overpriced in features and in quality,comparing the my 300+ Viper to my $100 Audiovox alarm and I'm sticking to my opinion. Checkout Ebay and you'll see what people are paying for old Orion and PPI amps compared to the new ones. That should make things clear enough for you. Oh, and DEI warranty support sucks ass in Canada, in Ontario to be exact, replacement parts are hard to get, and your products have too high of a markup (not sure what that means). These are some of the reasons I was given when I asked two local dealers why they dropped DEI and related products such as Orion and PPI from their lineup. Sounds like poor marketing in this area, What do you think JD? In article , John Durbin wrote: Yeah, but much of that was wrong... you need to pick better role models grasshopper. JD |
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Directed Amplifiers
Well then, try to spend a little less time under the dashboard and restore
the blood flow to your brain. In the long run you'll be a much happier person with a lot less anger. In article UZLFb.631821$Fm2.567625@attbi_s04, "Paul Vina" wrote: I already know all this. Dork. Paul Vina "Captain Howdy" wrote in message .. . Class T technology is owned by TriPath Technologies, Inc and is leased/licensed to companies such as Alpine and Blaupunkt. While most TriPath licensees use single TriPath devices for each channel, Blaupunkt uses two per channel. You have spent way too many years with your head under a dashboard. The lack of blood flow to your brain isn't doing you any justice. Dork In article e%JFb.625110$Tr4.1618099@attbi_s03, "Paul Vina" wrote: Cuz no one else has done class T. Can you say Alpine? I know you can, you think everyone rips them off for all their designs. I guess Blaupunkt ripped them off too! Dork. Paul Vina "Captain Howdy" wrote in message ... I just like the fact that MTX is doing their own thing in regards to building amplifiers. Sort of like Blaupunkt and their new class T amplifiers. In article , "John Spagnolo MMXpress.com" wrote: Oh. OK then. Thought ya meant something that made em sound better. :-) I always liked MTX as a great bang for the buck brand. I even had a system with MTX amps for a while. The old Thunder 2300 and a Thunder 2175. |
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Directed Amplifiers
Checkout Ebay and you'll see what people are paying for old
Orion and PPI amps compared to the new ones. Ah yes, ebay. Where Audiobahn is the biggest seller. |
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Directed Amplifiers
Maybe Audiobahn is a little better then you think, i don't know I have never
used any of their gear. No one is foced to bid on amps that they don't want on Ebay. If Audiobahn is the biggest seller on Ebay, then their is a reason for it. What is your point? In article , "Mark Zarella" wrote: Checkout Ebay and you'll see what people are paying for old Orion and PPI amps compared to the new ones. Ah yes, ebay. Where Audiobahn is the biggest seller. |
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