Just got an e-mail that AudioKits is going out of business.

Although they feature solid state stuff, it seems that there isn't much of a
market for DIY kits.

I've often pondered if there would be a market for a Heathkit style tube amp
kit. My guess is that the market is very small; the people who are
interested are typically frugal, and the liability issues are important.

Sound Valves used to have an ST-70 '"clone" of sorts, and they couldn't
sustain it.

Is this market simply dead???

Jon

Jon Yaeger wrote:

Just got an e-mail that AudioKits is going out of business.

Although they feature solid state stuff, it seems that there isn't much of a
market for DIY kits.

I've often pondered if there would be a market for a Heathkit style tube amp
kit. My guess is that the market is very small; the people who are
interested are typically frugal, and the liability issues are important.

There are no liabilities if you provide a kit of parts.
Its one way to avoid liabilities, by supplying kits.



Sound Valves used to have an ST-70 '"clone" of sorts, and they couldn't
sustain it.

Is this market simply dead???

By the time one puts together a kit with every single
nut an bolt and instructions and with all the finishes applied and
holes in the chgassis in the right places, the remaining assembly time
for an average amp is quite low, a minor part of the amps man hours.

The chinese imports make kit making unsustainable.

People will spend to buy a house, then a car, then spend
20 grand a year keeping the wife happy, and then grumble about the cost
of a tube amp.

What love and passion have they got?

Let us not worry about the demise of tube amp kits.

Patrick Turner.



Jon

"Jon Yaeger" wrote in message
...

I've often pondered if there would be a market for a Heathkit style tube
amp
kit. My guess is that the market is very small; the people who are
interested are typically frugal, and the liability issues are important.

People seem to want "plug and play" these days, and don't seem
interested in spending time to build something. Many hifi and video
shops offer a service whereby they deliver and connect up the system,
so all the user has to do is to work out how to use the remote control.

People have told me: "I like the sound of vinyl" but CD is *so*
convenient!"

Is this market simply dead???

Changing times. Equipment is now relatively cheap. In the golden
age of valve audio the majority of enthusiasts seem to have built something
and many amps were offered in kit form. Because there was a greater
interest, probably the level of knowledge regarding construction was higher.

As I understand it, there are no liability issues, in supplying a kit,
providing that the maker makes clear the potential dangers of high
voltage within the equipment, and also that the kit, when built
correctly, meets safety standards.

There seem to be several valve amp kits offered in magazines. To
decrease the risk of wiring errors and potential accidents, they seem
to use PCBs.

But there will always be a nucleus, like those on RAT who want to
tinker and build their own.

Iain

"François Yves Le Gal" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 18 May 2005 04:07:28 GMT, Patrick Turner
wrote:

There are no liabilities if you provide a kit of parts.

Don't underestimate the stupidity of US juries.

Exactly -- you won't find anyone supplying PCB's for a switching power
supply kit for this reason.

Here is my view on this subject:

Kit building slowly faded away.

I believe that no amount of nostalgia can ever make
that niche market return. People evolved along
a different path.

Learning today is 80% visual. Manual dexterity
is at an all time low. TV, Movies and the Internet
have replaced Solder, Wire and Flux.

Yet as time goes by, our old Tube amps will pass
their '60 and '70 year birthdays and acquire value
for those wanting to own such old things that play
music in ways the new stuff cannot.

A new market for old tube things will probably emerge
as the Pepsi and Generation X may lust after that which
is un-obtainable at reasonable prices.

I wonder what a NOS 7355 will cost in 2030?

Jon Yaeger wrote:
Is this market simply dead???

Jon


http://www.audiokits.com/products.asp?prodid=757

Well with prices like that its no wonder.


Adam

Finally someone mentioned prices re AudioKits demise. I build my own
stuff but would buy any cool kit that offered value for money.

I always checked out the Audiokits flyer and was quite interested in
their products but they all seemed to offer $30 worth of parts for over
$120.

I know that there is an overhead for documentation etc but you have to
value your input competitively.

Audiokits stuff seemed to be aimed at non technical "audiophiles" who
were used to paying exhorbitant prices for gear and who wanted to try
their hand at building. Any real DIYer would instantly see that the
AudioKits stuff was way overpriced.

If anyone offered competitive kits, I think that they would sell quite
well.


Adam Stouffer wrote:
Jon Yaeger wrote:
Is this market simply dead???

Jon


http://www.audiokits.com/products.asp?prodid=757

Well with prices like that its no wonder.


Adam

Adam Stouffer wrote:

Jon Yaeger wrote:
Is this market simply dead???

Jon


http://www.audiokits.com/products.asp?prodid=757

Well with prices like that its no wonder.

So you think you could source the parts and boards
and whatever else is included, ( which don't seem more than just a board

and the board bits ) for less than what they are charging?

Good luck, and good luck making your design work better than theirs.

Patrick Turner.



Adam

"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...


Adam Stouffer wrote:

Jon Yaeger wrote:
Is this market simply dead???

Jon


http://www.audiokits.com/products.asp?prodid=757

Well with prices like that its no wonder.

So you think you could source the parts and boards
and whatever else is included, ( which don't seem more than just a board

and the board bits ) for less than what they are charging?

Good luck, and good luck making your design work better than theirs.

Patrick Turner.


I agree. One is not paying for just the PCB and the parts,
but for the design. Surely that has much greater value
than the costs of the components:-)

Also, there is the question of economics and quantities.
I would think that kit vendors order and hold smallish
stocks of boards and parts. This greatly increases the
price.

I recently got a PCB quote from a company which
subcontracts for Nokia. I was amazed at the low cost,
until I noticed that the minimum quantity was
10.000 pcs. 100pcs increased the unit price 50 fold.


Iain

Iain M Churches wrote:

"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...


Adam Stouffer wrote:

Jon Yaeger wrote:
Is this market simply dead???

Jon


http://www.audiokits.com/products.asp?prodid=757

Well with prices like that its no wonder.

So you think you could source the parts and boards
and whatever else is included, ( which don't seem more than just a board

and the board bits ) for less than what they are charging?

Good luck, and good luck making your design work better than theirs.

Patrick Turner.


I agree. One is not paying for just the PCB and the parts,
but for the design. Surely that has much greater value
than the costs of the components:-)

Also, there is the question of economics and quantities.
I would think that kit vendors order and hold smallish
stocks of boards and parts. This greatly increases the
price.

I recently got a PCB quote from a company which
subcontracts for Nokia. I was amazed at the low cost,
until I noticed that the minimum quantity was
10.000 pcs. 100pcs increased the unit price 50 fold.

Iain

There will always be those who complain about
the cost of kits when they could not buy the parts for the kit price.

BTW Iain, I tried replying to your private emails re the 27 W triode amp
but for some reason I keep getting error messages and my replies
may not be getting to you.

Patrick Turner.

My 2 cents :

I think that two main reasons why you may buy a kit are :
- learn
- save money

The problem is that the finished product from china on ebay for example
is under the price of any kit. So the second reason is dead.

And who wants to learn ?
People with electrical/manual/scientific background will try to design
it from scratch. Those are guys on RAT.
They usually don't buy Kits, they carefully selects the parts from many
suppliers.
And if they want a kit they buy second hand amps to restore.

Maybe there are niches for Kits, but so small.

Luc D.

wrote in message
ups.com...

The problem is that the finished product from china on ebay for example
is under the price of any kit.

Luc D.


So is the quality. Transformers the size of matchboxes:-))

Iain

"Iain M Churches" wrote in message
...

"Jon Yaeger" wrote in message
...

I've often pondered if there would be a market for a Heathkit style tube
amp
kit. My guess is that the market is very small; the people who are
interested are typically frugal, and the liability issues are important.

People seem to want "plug and play" these days, and don't seem
interested in spending time to build something. Many hifi and video
shops offer a service whereby they deliver and connect up the system,
so all the user has to do is to work out how to use the remote control.

People have told me: "I like the sound of vinyl" but CD is *so*
convenient!"

Is this market simply dead???

Changing times. Equipment is now relatively cheap. In the golden
age of valve audio the majority of enthusiasts seem to have built
something
and many amps were offered in kit form. Because there was a greater
interest, probably the level of knowledge regarding construction was
higher.

As I understand it, there are no liability issues, in supplying a kit,
providing that the maker makes clear the potential dangers of high
voltage within the equipment, and also that the kit, when built
correctly, meets safety standards.

There seem to be several valve amp kits offered in magazines. To
decrease the risk of wiring errors and potential accidents, they seem
to use PCBs.

But there will always be a nucleus, like those on RAT who want to
tinker and build their own.

Iain

Iain,
Actually I heard that the opposite may be true. Many audiophiles like vinyl
because of the touch, interaction, feeling of self and equipment integrating
and that sort of psychological considerations.

west

"west" wrote in message
.. .

"Iain M Churches" wrote in message
...

"Jon Yaeger" wrote in message
...

I've often pondered if there would be a market for a Heathkit style
tube
amp
kit. My guess is that the market is very small; the people who are
interested are typically frugal, and the liability issues are
important.

People seem to want "plug and play" these days, and don't seem
interested in spending time to build something. Many hifi and video
shops offer a service whereby they deliver and connect up the system,
so all the user has to do is to work out how to use the remote control.

People have told me: "I like the sound of vinyl" but CD is *so*
convenient!"

Is this market simply dead???

Changing times. Equipment is now relatively cheap. In the golden
age of valve audio the majority of enthusiasts seem to have built
something
and many amps were offered in kit form. Because there was a greater
interest, probably the level of knowledge regarding construction was
higher.

As I understand it, there are no liability issues, in supplying a kit,
providing that the maker makes clear the potential dangers of high
voltage within the equipment, and also that the kit, when built
correctly, meets safety standards.

There seem to be several valve amp kits offered in magazines. To
decrease the risk of wiring errors and potential accidents, they seem
to use PCBs.

But there will always be a nucleus, like those on RAT who want to
tinker and build their own.

Iain

Iain,
Actually I heard that the opposite may be true. Many audiophiles like
vinyl
because of the touch, interaction, feeling of self and equipment
integrating
and that sort of psychological considerations.

west


Hello West,

Yes I am one of those - but I think we are in a minority. I especially like
the
booklets that go with vinyl classical boxed sets, which often include
photos
of small snippets from the original score etc. Try reading those from a
CD booklet!!

Iain

Patrick Turner wrote:


So you think you could source the parts and boards
and whatever else is included, ( which don't seem more than just a board

and the board bits ) for less than what they are charging?

Good luck, and good luck making your design work better than theirs.

Patrick Turner.

In low quantities that board can't cost more than $100 to etch. I'll be
liberal and estimate the parts at $150. Leaves $861 profit. Sounds good
to me but apparently people aren't willing to spend $1111 for a
barebones kit. You can get new finished tube preamps for less than that.


Adam

Hi,
Believe it or not, the tube market is growing. ]
NOS tubes, though, are on their way out as prices skyrocket and
availability dries up. So, modern tube manufacturers are beginning to
pick up the ball and run. Tubes like the 7591A are once again being made
as are classics like the 811 and 845. The 7199, 6U8, and 6BL8 can be
found in current production Russian guise.
Although few make kits, there is a growing number of people
building tube audio from scratch. Also, I know a couple people who are
building reproductions of classic amps and they are also looking into
offering these amps in kit form. Many still like to work with their
hands. I know I do. That is why I hand build guitar amps and hi-fi amps
for myself and for sale. My current project is a single ended 2A3
amplifier for hi-fi and a dual channel overdrive version of my
single ended EL34 guitar amplifier.
I think a basic tube amp kit would be an excellent way to
indoctrinate people into electronics. Point to point wiring is
a fantastic way to learn about the interactions of electronic components
and the rudiments of design and trouble shooting.
Bill B.

Tube amp design, building and repair at:
http://home.alltel.net/wbittle1

Rich Sherman wrote:

Here is my view on this subject:

Kit building slowly faded away.

I believe that no amount of nostalgia can ever make
that niche market return. People evolved along
a different path.

Learning today is 80% visual. Manual dexterity
is at an all time low. TV, Movies and the Internet
have replaced Solder, Wire and Flux.

Yet as time goes by, our old Tube amps will pass
their '60 and '70 year birthdays and acquire value
for those wanting to own such old things that play
music in ways the new stuff cannot.

A new market for old tube things will probably emerge
as the Pepsi and Generation X may lust after that which
is un-obtainable at reasonable prices.

I wonder what a NOS 7355 will cost in 2030?

On 2005-05-31 17:23:03 -0400, Wbittle said:

Hi,
Believe it or not, the tube market is growing. ]
NOS tubes, though, are on their way out as prices skyrocket and
availability dries up. So, modern tube manufacturers are beginning to
pick up the ball and run. Tubes like the 7591A are once again being
made as are classics like the 811 and 845. The 7199, 6U8, and 6BL8 can
be found in current production Russian guise.
Although few make kits, there is a growing number of people
building tube audio from scratch. Also, I know a couple people who are
building reproductions of classic amps and they are also looking into
offering these amps in kit form. Many still like to work with their
hands. I know I do. That is why I hand build guitar amps and hi-fi amps
for myself and for sale. My current project is a single ended 2A3
amplifier for hi-fi and a dual channel overdrive version of my
single ended EL34 guitar amplifier.
I think a basic tube amp kit would be an excellent way to
indoctrinate people into electronics. Point to point wiring is
a fantastic way to learn about the interactions of electronic
components and the rudiments of design and trouble shooting.
Bill B.

Tube amp design, building and repair at:
http://home.alltel.net/wbittle1

I'm glad that the tube market is growing, but I wonder if the modern
tube manufacturers can substain the growth by producing the quality
that they are, which, in my limited experience, is poor. Take the
example of the 7591A. You can either buy the Sovtek, too large to fit
most gear, version or the JJ version with the smaller diameter pins -
either way, you have to modify your set in some way.

Tubes are really the ultimate plug and play device. In their heyday you
knew that if you bought a certain tube type, that tube, no matter where
it was made, was going to work in any socket that it was meant for. To
me the attraction of tube audio is not only the superior sound, but
it's also the fact that you are able to swap out tubes for different
ones to see how they affect the sound. It's all about the
experimentation. But if modern tube manufactures aren't going to make a
wholehearted effort to make a old tube number to its original specs,
eithier by by making it too big or by making it's pins wrong (isn't a
tube's pins the "low-tech" part?), then they're taking away part of the
instant gratitude of tubes. To me, that's the fun part.