The word "penultimate" means "second-to-last." I guess the death
penalty could be the penultimate judgement, if you believe in a
vengeful god. But I don't think that's what you meant.

ulysses

No, I said what I meant. In our sphere of influence, the death penalty is
the last thing that can be done, but in the truer meaning of spirituality,
people don't hold the final judgement. That's for a higher authority to
dispense.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
RAP FAQ and Purchase your copy of the Fifth of RAP CD set at
www.recaudiopro.net.
See how far $20 really goes.





"Justin Ulysses Morse" wrote in message
m...
Roger W. Norman wrote:

No, Will, I am arguing that the death penalty, undoubtedly the
penultimate
judgement

On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 06:12:52 -0500, "Roger W. Norman"
wrote:

The word "penultimate" means "second-to-last." I guess the death
penalty could be the penultimate judgement, if you believe in a
vengeful god. But I don't think that's what you meant.

ulysses

No, I said what I meant. In our sphere of influence, the death penalty is
the last thing that can be done, but in the truer meaning of spirituality,
people don't hold the final judgement. That's for a higher authority to
dispense.


The murderer passed final judgement onto his victim , would
not death for the murderer also be an eye for an eye?

Randall

In article ,
ospam (WillStG) wrote:

S O'Neill
But if it doesn't REDUCE the violent crime rate, what's the point?

The point is to serve Justice,

That makes no sense; killing one doesn't bring their victim back to
life. Two wrongs don't make a right, Will. Therefore "justice" (like
any right-winger would sincerely recognize that concept) isn't the point.


The Victims of a crime have suffered wrong and until the perpetrator is
brought to account they cannot find emotional balance, closure nor
substantially even forgive the perpetrator. The wrong needs to be
acknowledged
and taken responsibility for so that the burden can be removed from the
victim's heart of fear and/or pain/suffering.

In other words you're admitting it really is just all about revenge.
You're grasping at straws. You're just promoting senseless escalation
of killing--not surprising for a Fox News, Bill O'Reilly, and George W.
Bush promoter.

I miss the days of the Clinton admin spreading global peace, prosperity,
dishonesty about sex, and general decadence. These days are far darker.

Craig

On Sun, Dec 21, 2003 7:22 AM, Roger W. Norman
wrote:
Actually, that was William Casey, who was rewarded with the
CIA Directorship
after Reagan's election. It's called the October Surprise.

--

Because the previous director became Vice President.

On Sun, Dec 21, 2003 12:11 AM, RB wrote:
Clutch Cargo is in Pontiac, not Detroit.

RB

Sorry i was thinking of St Andrew's Hall.. Didn't that used to get called
"Clutch Cargo" before they opened the one in Pontiac?

Craig

That makes no sense; killing one doesn't bring their victim back to
life. Two wrongs don't make a right, Will. Therefore "justice" (like
any right-winger would sincerely recognize that concept) isn't the point.

It's not about bringing anyone back or two wrongs making a right, it's about
paying for your crime with a penalty of equal measure. If you took a life,
you pay for that crime with your life. That's "Just", but it doesn't mean
that there aren't circumstances where Justice can't be served by other means.
It just means that a payment of equal measure is one form that Justice can take
(and has historically).

In other words you're admitting it really is just all about revenge.
You're grasping at straws. You're just promoting senseless escalation of
killing--not surprising for a Fox News, Bill O'Reilly, and George W. Bush
promoter.

I have said the counter arguments to the Death penalty I was hearing were
weak, and that there are better ones. As for you, I guess you know better
what is Justice than the accumulated experience of all of human History, huh
Craig?

I think it entirely reasonable to say Justice serves Society, the Victims,
and the Criminal, and that sometimes the Death Penalty is a fair form for
Justice to take.

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

"Roger W. Norman"
However, I don't have a problem with being judge, jury and executioner if
someone has broken into my house and is threatening the lives of my family
members.

Some argue national Security confronting terrorism requires such an
attitude.

But that's a personal situation one has to come to grips with
and
live with for the rest of their lives. As a society we barely even take
notice that people are being put to death by the state almost every day,
and
a percentage of those we don't notice are innocent.

It may be possible to require something greater than the "guilt beyond a
reasonable doubt" standard in Death penalty cases, perhaps a "There isn't even
an unreasonable doubt he's Guilty" standard.

Human justice will always be imperfect. Throwing an innocent in the hell
of the prison environment where he often has to become a criminal himself to
merely survive is as unjust as anything else Roger. But we cannot abandon
criminal justice totally because it is imperfect either, and watering down
penalties does little in *reality* to change the problems with the system. The
real problems lie elsewhere I think.


Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

Peter Larsen wrote:

Do be aware that the mechanism above also appear to make some kind of
religion a simple prerequisite for mental sanity, even if il-logical or
a-logical. Such a religion can be anything from a Belief in a Supreme
Being to simple trust in society. God doesn't need believers, but man
needs to believe and if no god is available then one will be invented.

I read recently that brain imaging techniques have in fact
produced evidence of a "spiritual locus" in the brain which
is much like the locus for language and other abstractions
that have been located. It appears that we have been
equipped by evolution for a spiritual capacity. Speculation
is that it serves a social function which has been important
for community and thus for enhanced survival of the
individual (but ya never know.)

To quote someone who I can't remember, "The only evidence
for the existence of God is the universal human longing for
it to be true." :-)


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

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On 2003-12-19 said:
Just because a lot of people believe in Astrology doesn't make it
science. Why does America lead the world in violent crime? Because
it's an Industry.

true. why do you think the music industry is selling some of the
violence through music, if that's what you call fifty cent et al.
tElevision sell it to a good degree as well. OUrs is the culture most
tuned into television and for the longest period of time.
Look at the way the cops in the inner city near where I live treat the
people that live here.

I'll shut up now.




Richard Webb
Electric Spider Productions
REplace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real email

--



No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However
a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.

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On 2003-12-19 said:
science. Why does America lead the world in violent
crime? Because
it's an Industry.
true. why do you think the music industry is selling some
of the
violence through music, if that's what you call fifty cent
et al.
Television sell it to a good degree as well.
YEAH! The new Public Enemy didn't get any play.. but all the rap
that glorifies materialism, and guns is played to death.
"Any political Youth movement is negated by creating a culture of
narcisism"- Chomsky
YEs, they become narcisistic, immune to the cultural violence they
see. IN fact they can help perpetuate it into tomorrow. IT's sold to
them on the idiot box and glamorized. THugs and lowlife are to be
praised and emulated.

THen we can point the finger and say, "see what happens when you give
those people freedom ... "

Draw y our own conclusions, because I've already drawn mine.

Look at the way the cops in the inner city near where I
live treat the
people that live here.
I'll shut up now.
Look at the way the Cops in Chicago treted Fred Hampton, and his
son. Look at Cointelpro, and how it would now be legal for the
CIA/FBI to violate rights the way they did with that project. All
the Cointelpro cases got thrown out because of rights violations
Glorification of Violence, Culture of Fear.. Sale of home security
devices... Divisions of society.
YEs sir, it's scary.

Last week my lady and I went to court. A young man who often helps me
unload my pa system after a gig went to court. WE didn't know him by
anything but his street name. HOWever we get to court where we've
been ordered to appera to find out what's going down. WE're supposed
to testify that this kid was "trespassing' because he was leaning
against the wall next to our front stoop at about 10:30 a.m. on a
SUnday morning while we were no doubt at church. IF they can't make
it that easy they'll shake down the kid whom they suspect of dealing.
SOmetimes they'll take his money though he's got no drugs on him, then
give him a ride to the far side of town and dump him out, no money and
no cell phone to call home. THey've confiscated it.

wHile middle america is giving up its rights many of these folks in
the cities never really got theirs. NOW we're selling them their own
disempowerment if that's a word. THe bigtime TV moguls and others
don't care that tehy're selling these kids' future down the crapper
with this stuff. AS long as the thing goes cha ching when t hey pull
the lever they don't give a rat's ass.

Maybe we in this country need ot reintroduce the draft and almost
another Vietnam type situation so that our young people can have
something to wake them up and make them really quesetion whether or
not the bull**** they're being sold is what we should be spoon feeding
younger people. Violent crime is up because the violence we see
around us is far more prevalent. IF you make glass pipes you can
subject to all sorts of indignities. YOu can be searched detained and
otherwise ****ed with for no good reason at all. YOur trip to the
grocery store for staples can become the nightmare from hell as you're
rolled in the parking lot. AFter y ou've returned to your home if
you're not careful you can see plenty of it on the tube. THese
gangstas are cool man!!!

TJhe only thing most of these gangsta lowlifes have to say to me is
"do you want fries with that."

Yet somehow in my brain when I think this way I consider that the mass
media has helped sell these folks on who they are. tHey've created
the image these folks cultivate. Isn't it sad? NO it isn't sad, it
makes me angry when they do this just for a lousy buck!




Richard Webb
Electric Spider Productions
REplace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real email

--