[Scott Dorsey]

Bill Graham wrote:

I have made many such suggestions to manufacturers during my life. None of
them were taken. I have come to the conclusion that to adopt a user's
suggestion would be putting oneself in jepordy of being sued for some
percentage of the profits, so the manufacturers legal department advises
them to not adapt the suggestion. IOW, by simply sending them the
suggestion, you are guaranteeing that they will not change the design of
their equipment.

And that, in short, is the difference between Behringer and the pro audio
world.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[George's Pro Sound Co.]

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
Bill Graham wrote:

I have made many such suggestions to manufacturers during my life. None of
them were taken. I have come to the conclusion that to adopt a user's
suggestion would be putting oneself in jepordy of being sued for some
percentage of the profits, so the manufacturers legal department advises
them to not adapt the suggestion. IOW, by simply sending them the
suggestion, you are guaranteeing that they will not change the design of
their equipment.

And that, in short, is the difference between Behringer and the pro audio
world.

or establish a friendly relationship with the manufacturers key personel and
then they will solicit your input. this has happened with me
george

[Scott Dorsey]

In article estechnologygroup,
George's Pro Sound Co. wrote:

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
Bill Graham wrote:

I have made many such suggestions to manufacturers during my life. None of
them were taken. I have come to the conclusion that to adopt a user's
suggestion would be putting oneself in jepordy of being sued for some
percentage of the profits, so the manufacturers legal department advises
them to not adapt the suggestion. IOW, by simply sending them the
suggestion, you are guaranteeing that they will not change the design of
their equipment.

And that, in short, is the difference between Behringer and the pro audio
world.

or establish a friendly relationship with the manufacturers key personel and
then they will solicit your input. this has happened with me

Sadly, a lot of the MI-grade companies (and Behringer is actually an exception)
just buy whatever the factories in China want to make and they resell them in
the US... because the factory makes millions of things and the US importer only
buys thousands or tens of thousands, it's not even possible for the vendor to
really have much say in the products they are themselves selling.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Gareth Magennis]

"Kevin Aylward" wrote in message
...
"George's Pro Sound Co." wrote in message
rlakestechnologygroup...

afaik bent knob shafts signal serious abuse and if you can't figure out
how to open a powered mixer, then you have no business inside of it

Why would that be?

I am professional analogue design engineer, and have been so for 30 years.
I am not a mechanical tech, nor am I in the general business of repairing
audio equipment for employment. Sure, whilst at university I did have a
fair bit of on the side repair work for a music shop, a £20 repair was a
good percentage increase on my £45 weekly student grant money, but I no
even longer build what I design. Its a "would you expect an architect to
lay bricks"? Despite this, I have opened and repaired more bits of kit
that probably most in this NG.

So, non expertise in opening boxes, stuffed in china, that are not
designed for servicing, is hardly a good reason to avoid throwing money
away by not trying. If you have some suitable instructions for opening up
the PMP1280S I would welcome your obviously superior knowledge on this
matter.

Kevin Aylward B.Sc.
www.kevinaylward.co.uk
"Live Long And Prosper \V/"



Kevin,
hope you don't mind me saying, but your posting style is uncannily similar
to that of Graham Stevenson. Blimey.



Gareth.

[Arny Krueger]

"Gareth Magennis" wrote in
message

hope you don't mind me saying, but your posting style is
uncannily similar to that of Graham Stevenson. Blimey.

Asked and answered last week. They were both senior engineers for the same
company in a similar time frame.

[Gareth Magennis]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Gareth Magennis" wrote in
message

hope you don't mind me saying, but your posting style is
uncannily similar to that of Graham Stevenson. Blimey.

Asked and answered last week. They were both senior engineers for the same
company in a similar time frame.


Yes, I know. So how come they both sound the same?

[Arny Krueger]

"Gareth Magennis" wrote in
message
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Gareth Magennis" wrote in
message

hope you don't mind me saying, but your posting style is
uncannily similar to that of Graham Stevenson. Blimey.

Asked and answered last week. They were both senior
engineers for the same company in a similar time frame.


Yes, I know. So how come they both sound the same?

I've been interacting with them for a number of years. I agree that they
sound very similar at times, but I can separate them pretty easily. Kevin is
more theoretical, and Graham is more practical. Graham doesn't exactly
suffer fools, but Kevin has a shorter fuse.

[Gareth Magennis]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Gareth Magennis" wrote in
message
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Gareth Magennis" wrote in
message

hope you don't mind me saying, but your posting style is
uncannily similar to that of Graham Stevenson. Blimey.

Asked and answered last week. They were both senior
engineers for the same company in a similar time frame.


Yes, I know. So how come they both sound the same?

I've been interacting with them for a number of years. I agree that they
sound very similar at times, but I can separate them pretty easily. Kevin
is more theoretical, and Graham is more practical. Graham doesn't exactly
suffer fools, but Kevin has a shorter fuse.



Hmm, this is starting to look like some kind of Oliver Sack's precis. I
wish you luck.

Gareth.

[Trevor]

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
Bill Graham wrote:

I have made many such suggestions to manufacturers during my life. None of
them were taken. I have come to the conclusion that to adopt a user's
suggestion would be putting oneself in jepordy of being sued for some
percentage of the profits, so the manufacturers legal department advises
them to not adapt the suggestion. IOW, by simply sending them the
suggestion, you are guaranteeing that they will not change the design of
their equipment.

And that, in short, is the difference between Behringer and the pro audio
world.

Nope, Behrenger aren't the only ones who do it. And many of the smaller
companies have even less inclination to change anything that isn't high
priority on their list since they have less staff and money to devote to it.

Trevor.

[Trevor]

"George's Pro Sound Co." wrote in message
rlakestechnologygroup...
or establish a friendly relationship with the manufacturers key personel
and then they will solicit your input. this has happened with me

Yep, that is usually the only way to get listened to. I do think if enough
people bombard them with the same complaint or suggestion, most companies
might at least take a look. Unfortunately most of us think "how stupid",
"bad design" etc. but don't actually complain to the manufacturer. And when
we do I wonder how much gets passed to the right people.

Trevor.

[George's Pro Sound Co.]

"Trevor" wrote in message
u...

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
Bill Graham wrote:

I have made many such suggestions to manufacturers during my life. None
of
them were taken. I have come to the conclusion that to adopt a user's
suggestion would be putting oneself in jepordy of being sued for some
percentage of the profits, so the manufacturers legal department advises
them to not adapt the suggestion. IOW, by simply sending them the
suggestion, you are guaranteeing that they will not change the design of
their equipment.

And that, in short, is the difference between Behringer and the pro audio
world.

Nope, Behrenger aren't the only ones who do it. And many of the smaller
companies have even less inclination to change anything that isn't high
priority on their list since they have less staff and money to devote to
it.

Trevor.

Behringer activly solicits end user input before final production units are
put in the pipe line

[Scott Dorsey]

Trevor wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
Bill Graham wrote:

I have made many such suggestions to manufacturers during my life. None of
them were taken. I have come to the conclusion that to adopt a user's
suggestion would be putting oneself in jepordy of being sued for some
percentage of the profits, so the manufacturers legal department advises
them to not adapt the suggestion. IOW, by simply sending them the
suggestion, you are guaranteeing that they will not change the design of
their equipment.

And that, in short, is the difference between Behringer and the pro audio
world.

Nope, Behrenger aren't the only ones who do it. And many of the smaller
companies have even less inclination to change anything that isn't high
priority on their list since they have less staff and money to devote to it.

No, they certainly aren't the only ones who do it, but it's typical of the
MI store folks.

Call up Great River or Manley, tell them you want their electronics with
some changes or in a funny form factor box, they'll quote you. They might
quote you a lot more than you want to pay, but they'll do it because that is
where much of their market is.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[George's Pro Sound Co.]

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
Trevor wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
Bill Graham wrote:

I have made many such suggestions to manufacturers during my life. None
of
them were taken. I have come to the conclusion that to adopt a user's
suggestion would be putting oneself in jepordy of being sued for some
percentage of the profits, so the manufacturers legal department advises
them to not adapt the suggestion. IOW, by simply sending them the
suggestion, you are guaranteeing that they will not change the design of
their equipment.

And that, in short, is the difference between Behringer and the pro
audio
world.

Nope, Behrenger aren't the only ones who do it. And many of the smaller
companies have even less inclination to change anything that isn't high
priority on their list since they have less staff and money to devote to
it.

No, they certainly aren't the only ones who do it, but it's typical of the
MI store folks.

Call up Great River or Manley, tell them you want their electronics with
some changes or in a funny form factor box, they'll quote you. They might
quote you a lot more than you want to pay, but they'll do it because that
is
where much of their market is.
--scott

long before Omnidrives and Driveracks a friend had ashley custom build his
design of a parametric crossover
stereo fully adjustable band pass filters
5 filters per channel
george

[Trevor]

"Dec [Cluskey]" wrote in message
...
When we first started using a Behringer Xen 24 channel our sound
jockey really had a hissy fit and proclaimed that in our position we
should be using the Allen and Heath comparable unit .... far better
built.
We were almost convinced until shortly after a support band was using
the Allen and Heath version ...
I got my brother to join me in a chat with that sound guy.... "how do
you find the Allen and Heath?" .... "Don't go anywhere near them ....
bin' back to the shop six times, still not right".
Case proven?

Pretty bad service department anyway it seems.


In my opinion it is the compactness that creates the lack of complete
reliability, not the price. Something the X32 should not suffer from.

Well there's no such thing as "complete reliability" at any price! I do not
find the Behrengers to be any less reliable than others in their class
(usually the reverse) However they are certainly not as rugged as some
higher priced equipment, and things like the faders will certainly not last
as long in a less than pristine environment. And repairs are usually
uneconomic, but if buying a new cheap mixer is cheaper than what it costs to
repair a more expensively built one, I'd say that's not a big issue for me
either. How the X32 will stack up I have no idea though. I bet it will
probably provide some real bang for your buck regardless.

Trevor.

[Bill Graham]

Trevor wrote:
"George's Pro Sound Co." wrote in message
rlakestechnologygroup...
or establish a friendly relationship with the manufacturers key
personel and then they will solicit your input. this has happened
with me

Yep, that is usually the only way to get listened to. I do think if
enough people bombard them with the same complaint or suggestion,
most companies might at least take a look. Unfortunately most of us
think "how stupid", "bad design" etc. but don't actually complain to
the manufacturer. And when we do I wonder how much gets passed to the
right people.
Trevor.

Yes, but you'd think that when you change a design to make it better, and
then send the schematic to the manufacturer together with the information as
to why it is better, that they would at least acknowledge your letter. I
have won cases in court where the design of the equipment causes it to catch
on fire and destroy a building, so its not like I don't know something about
poorly designed equipment....Especially power supplies. - I was a specialist
in those.

[PStamler]

On Jan 7, 8:50*pm, "Bill Graham" wrote:
Trevor wrote:
"George's Pro Sound Co." wrote in message
erlakestechnologygroup....
or establish a friendly relationship with the manufacturers key
personel and then they will solicit your input. this has happened
with me

Yep, that is usually the only way to get listened to. I do think if
enough people bombard them with the same complaint or suggestion,
most companies might at least take a look. Unfortunately most of us
think "how stupid", "bad design" etc. but don't actually complain to
the manufacturer. And when we do I wonder how much gets passed to the
right people.
Trevor.

Yes, but you'd think that when you change a design to make it better, and
then send the schematic to the manufacturer together with the information as
to why it is better, that they would at least acknowledge your letter. I
have won cases in court where the design of the equipment causes it to catch
on fire and destroy a building, so its not like I don't know something about
poorly designed equipment....Especially power supplies. - I was a specialist
in those.

Really? I thought you worked on broken effects pedals.

Peace,
Paul

[Bill Graham]

PStamler wrote:
On Jan 7, 8:50 pm, "Bill Graham" wrote:
Trevor wrote:
"George's Pro Sound Co." wrote in message
rlakestechnologygroup...
or establish a friendly relationship with the manufacturers key
personel and then they will solicit your input. this has happened
with me

Yep, that is usually the only way to get listened to. I do think if
enough people bombard them with the same complaint or suggestion,
most companies might at least take a look. Unfortunately most of us
think "how stupid", "bad design" etc. but don't actually complain to
the manufacturer. And when we do I wonder how much gets passed to
the right people.
Trevor.

Yes, but you'd think that when you change a design to make it
better, and then send the schematic to the manufacturer together
with the information as to why it is better, that they would at
least acknowledge your letter. I have won cases in court where the
design of the equipment causes it to catch on fire and destroy a
building, so its not like I don't know something about poorly
designed equipment....Especially power supplies. - I was a
specialist in those.

Really? I thought you worked on broken effects pedals.

Peace,
Paul

Yeah, that too. I have had a long and varied life, sonny. One of these days,
after your ear wetness drys out a bit, you may be able to say the same
thing. Of course, since you are unable to learn from my mistakes, you will
have to make your own.

[hank alrich]

PStamler wrote:

On Jan 7, 8:50 pm, "Bill Graham" wrote:
Trevor wrote:
"George's Pro Sound Co." wrote in message
erlakestechnologygroup...
or establish a friendly relationship with the manufacturers key
personel and then they will solicit your input. this has happened
with me

Yep, that is usually the only way to get listened to. I do think if
enough people bombard them with the same complaint or suggestion,
most companies might at least take a look. Unfortunately most of us
think "how stupid", "bad design" etc. but don't actually complain to
the manufacturer. And when we do I wonder how much gets passed to the
right people.
Trevor.

Yes, but you'd think that when you change a design to make it better, and
then send the schematic to the manufacturer together with the information as
to why it is better, that they would at least acknowledge your letter. I
have won cases in court where the design of the equipment causes it to catch
on fire and destroy a building, so its not like I don't know something about
poorly designed equipment....Especially power supplies. - I was a specialist
in those.

Really? I thought you worked on broken effects pedals.

Peace,
Paul

I've seen some of those with accelerator pedals that I guess make the
sound particles go faster.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://armadillomusicproductions.com/who'slistening.html
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShai...withDougHarman

[Trevor]

"Bill Graham" wrote in message
...
Trevor wrote:
Yep, that is usually the only way to get listened to. I do think if
enough people bombard them with the same complaint or suggestion,
most companies might at least take a look. Unfortunately most of us
think "how stupid", "bad design" etc. but don't actually complain to
the manufacturer. And when we do I wonder how much gets passed to the
right people.

Yes, but you'd think that when you change a design to make it better, and
then send the schematic to the manufacturer together with the information
as to why it is better, that they would at least acknowledge your letter.

You'd hope, but unfortunately as you found, in vain with some manufacturers
:-(

I have won cases in court where the design of the equipment causes it to
catch on fire and destroy a building,

I'm willing to bet they take more notice of you in those cases! :-)

Trevor.

[Sean Conolly]

"George's Pro Sound Co." wrote in message
news

"Trevor" wrote in message
u...

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
Bill Graham wrote:

I have made many such suggestions to manufacturers during my life. None
of
them were taken. I have come to the conclusion that to adopt a user's
suggestion would be putting oneself in jepordy of being sued for some
percentage of the profits, so the manufacturers legal department advises
them to not adapt the suggestion. IOW, by simply sending them the
suggestion, you are guaranteeing that they will not change the design of
their equipment.

And that, in short, is the difference between Behringer and the pro
audio
world.

Nope, Behrenger aren't the only ones who do it. And many of the smaller
companies have even less inclination to change anything that isn't high
priority on their list since they have less staff and money to devote to
it.

Trevor.

Behringer activly solicits end user input before final production units
are put in the pipe line

The important part is that it's *before* the product is in production. It's
surprising how expensive the smallest change can be after production starts.

Sean

[Bill Graham]

Trevor wrote:
"Bill Graham" wrote in message
...
Trevor wrote:
Yep, that is usually the only way to get listened to. I do think if
enough people bombard them with the same complaint or suggestion,
most companies might at least take a look. Unfortunately most of us
think "how stupid", "bad design" etc. but don't actually complain to
the manufacturer. And when we do I wonder how much gets passed to
the right people.

Yes, but you'd think that when you change a design to make it
better, and then send the schematic to the manufacturer together
with the information as to why it is better, that they would at
least acknowledge your letter.

You'd hope, but unfortunately as you found, in vain with some
manufacturers :-(

I have won cases in court where the design of the equipment causes
it to catch on fire and destroy a building,

I'm willing to bet they take more notice of you in those cases! :-)

Trevor.

Yes. Unfortunately, they were few and far between. I worked for an Engineer
in the Bay area for a while who specialized in investigating fires and other
industrial accidents... That was a fun job. There were some real weird
cases. I remember one where the transformer that knocks the 12.7 KV on the
telephone pole shorted out primary to secondary, and put 12 KV on this
lady's house circuits while she was ironing in her kitchem. The iron got so
hot she couldn't hold it. Then smoke started pouring out of the walls in her
house. She ran for the door, and just after she cleared it, her whole house
burst into flames and burned to the ground before the fire department could
even get there. Folrtunately, there was no one else in the house, so no one
was hurt.