I recently helped my nephew install a $200 12" sub/amp/box combo in
the trunk of his car (Olds Cutlass ca '87). We put the subs facing
forward, and he gets substantial bass. They were cheap Profile subs
and a Profile amp with a Q-logic sealed box, a Circuit City package
deal. I don't know the size of the box, but it was a pretty big one,
probably big enough for porting.

Here's his setup:
Profile CA400M mono sub amp (class AB?)
200 watts RMS x 1 at 4 ohms
320 watts RMS x 1 at 2 ohms
I think the subs are Profile, but I don't recall which ones. Cheap
pair of 4-ohm subs wired in parallel for 2-ohm load.

He gets excellent bass; I was amazed at the results. We had to turn
down the gain on the amp.


I just installed a similar setup in my Corolla. I'm not happy with
the bass.

2 10" Polk GNX10 4 ohm subs wired parallel 2-ohm (I even measured the
resistance to make sure)

US Acoustics USB-600D mono sub amp (class D)
200 or 250 watts rms @ 4ohm
300 or 375 watts rms @ 2ohm
The Web site states the larger figure; the manual states the smaller
figure, same input level.

Two Roadmaster sealed sub boxes from Wal-Mart (I have lots of things
to spend my money on, so I try to be frugal where I can).
The sub boxes are 0.6 cu ft; the subs require .66 cu ft.

I wasn't happy with the bass, so I stuffed 8 oz of poly fill in each
box. ...helped some, but not much. The speakers face rear, but are
up against the back seat. I need my trunk space. I moved them all
the way back, which helped a bit, but not much, so they're back
against the seat now. ...haven't tried them facing the seats.

So, is it the boxes, the subs, the amp, the car? We used the same
install kit in each car (4 ga from batt to trunk; 8ga from block in
trunk to amp.) Mine aren't as loud or as low as my nephew's. Should
I get a better box or bigger subs or more amp???? I bought from
Crutchfield, so I can send any of it back within 30 days.

Polk says to break the subs in for 20 hours at moderate volume levels,
so I really haven't hit them with full power yet. ...up to about 12
hours so far.



I also have a partial setup I bought for my 91 Burban, but never
installed:

A pair of JL Audio 10W1 8 ohm subs, but they require a .75 enclosure,
and an ESX Q275 mono sub amp. I don't have a box.

The amp is rated:
275 W rms @ 4 ohm
450 W rms @ 2 ohm

The Polks are rated for 175W rms each; the JL's for 125.

I'm open to suggestions for any of you wizards who have stuck with me
this long.

I need small-box 10" subs for the Burban, can go bigger in the
Corolla.

Put the stuff from the Corolla in the Burban and the JL/ESX in the
Corolla?

Buy bigger subs or bigger box for Corolla?

What frequency do you and your nephew have the subs crossed over at?

Tony


--



What's more likely? That an all-powerful mysterious god created the
universe and then decided not to give any proof of his existence? Or, that
he simply doesn't exist at all? And that we created him so that we wouldn't
have to feel so small and alone. -Eleanor Arroway, Contact

"Doug" wrote in message
...
I recently helped my nephew install a $200 12" sub/amp/box combo in
the trunk of his car (Olds Cutlass ca '87). We put the subs facing
forward, and he gets substantial bass. They were cheap Profile subs
and a Profile amp with a Q-logic sealed box, a Circuit City package
deal. I don't know the size of the box, but it was a pretty big one,
probably big enough for porting.

Here's his setup:
Profile CA400M mono sub amp (class AB?)
200 watts RMS x 1 at 4 ohms
320 watts RMS x 1 at 2 ohms
I think the subs are Profile, but I don't recall which ones. Cheap
pair of 4-ohm subs wired in parallel for 2-ohm load.

He gets excellent bass; I was amazed at the results. We had to turn
down the gain on the amp.


I just installed a similar setup in my Corolla. I'm not happy with
the bass.

2 10" Polk GNX10 4 ohm subs wired parallel 2-ohm (I even measured the
resistance to make sure)

US Acoustics USB-600D mono sub amp (class D)
200 or 250 watts rms @ 4ohm
300 or 375 watts rms @ 2ohm
The Web site states the larger figure; the manual states the smaller
figure, same input level.

Two Roadmaster sealed sub boxes from Wal-Mart (I have lots of things
to spend my money on, so I try to be frugal where I can).
The sub boxes are 0.6 cu ft; the subs require .66 cu ft.

I wasn't happy with the bass, so I stuffed 8 oz of poly fill in each
box. ...helped some, but not much. The speakers face rear, but are
up against the back seat. I need my trunk space. I moved them all
the way back, which helped a bit, but not much, so they're back
against the seat now. ...haven't tried them facing the seats.

So, is it the boxes, the subs, the amp, the car? We used the same
install kit in each car (4 ga from batt to trunk; 8ga from block in
trunk to amp.) Mine aren't as loud or as low as my nephew's. Should
I get a better box or bigger subs or more amp???? I bought from
Crutchfield, so I can send any of it back within 30 days.

Polk says to break the subs in for 20 hours at moderate volume levels,
so I really haven't hit them with full power yet. ...up to about 12
hours so far.



I also have a partial setup I bought for my 91 Burban, but never
installed:

A pair of JL Audio 10W1 8 ohm subs, but they require a .75 enclosure,
and an ESX Q275 mono sub amp. I don't have a box.

The amp is rated:
275 W rms @ 4 ohm
450 W rms @ 2 ohm

The Polks are rated for 175W rms each; the JL's for 125.

I'm open to suggestions for any of you wizards who have stuck with me
this long.

I need small-box 10" subs for the Burban, can go bigger in the
Corolla.

Put the stuff from the Corolla in the Burban and the JL/ESX in the
Corolla?

Buy bigger subs or bigger box for Corolla?

Tony,

A bit off topic but you wrote:

"What's more likely? That an all-powerful mysterious god created the
universe and then decided not to give any proof of his existence? Or, that
he simply doesn't exist at all? And that we created him so that we wouldn't
have to feel so small and alone. -Eleanor Arroway, Contact"

I would say the fact you are operating within a giant perfectly timed machine called
the Universe ought to be clue #1 that there is a Creator, don't you?
--
Todd

I set mine just low enough that I couldn't tell that the sound was
coming from the trunk. It's fairly low. I don't remember where we
set his, but you couldn't tell the sound was coming from the trunk.
Even when I turned the crossover up so that I could definitely tell
where the sound was coming from, it's still not really what I was
expecting. It is a bit louder, however.

I'm going to try to visit my nephew and do some comparisons and try
his subs in my trunk and vice versa. ...but I think his family is
outta town. I'm also gonna try the JL subs and see what they sound
like with both amps.

Is there that much difference between 10's and 12's? The Crutchfield
tech advisor seemed to think that was the main difference. He didn't
think the box size was an issue, which was what I was concerned about.

Should I maybe get a pair of 12's and run them offa the ESX amp
instead? ...use what I have now in the Burban.

On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 14:58:07 -0700, "Tony Fernandes"
wrote:

What frequency do you and your nephew have the subs crossed over at?

Tony

Maybe it's a frequency issue? I'm looking for that "feel" of bass
shaking my head, making my nose tickle and my head swim. Bass you
feel in your body more than your ears. Nephew's does a good job of
that; mine doesn't.

I don't listen to techno or rap music. I got the subs for when I feel
like being pounded by music.

Pink Floyd
Pantera
Metallica
AC/DC
George Thurgood

....and I like country too, and even Crash Test Dummies.

The bassiest thing I have is a Frogstomp CD I bought years ago and
rarely listen to. ...maybe the Wife's Enya CD's are kinda bassy; I
haven't tried them.

On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 14:58:07 -0700, "Tony Fernandes"
wrote:

What frequency do you and your nephew have the subs crossed over at?

Tony

And you wrote: "I would say the fact you are operating within a giant
perfectly timed machine called the Universe ought to be clue #1 that there
is a Creator, don't you? "

No. ;-)



--



What's more likely? That an all-powerful mysterious god created the
universe and then decided not to give any proof of his existence? Or, that
he simply doesn't exist at all? And that we created him so that we wouldn't
have to feel so small and alone. -Eleanor Arroway, Contact

"Todd" wrote in message
news:Xfqzc.719098$Pk3.710803@pd7tw1no...
Tony,

A bit off topic but you wrote:

"What's more likely? That an all-powerful mysterious god created the
universe and then decided not to give any proof of his existence? Or,
that
he simply doesn't exist at all? And that we created him so that we
wouldn't
have to feel so small and alone. -Eleanor Arroway, Contact"

I would say the fact you are operating within a giant perfectly timed
machine called
the Universe ought to be clue #1 that there is a Creator, don't you?
--
Todd

Well, if a person ignores the evidence ...
--
Todd

"Todd" wrote in message news:8_zzc.758735$oR5.318449@pd7tw3no...
Well, if a person ignores the evidence ...

Right on Todd. If someone believes that all this happened by chance
they have a whole lot more faith than I do. And I believe in a God
that most people (including myself) have never seen. Just the evidence
of Him that is all around us. =)

Dan

Dan,

I can tell you are a gentleman and a scholar

Actually, I really enjoyed "Contact"--a pretty gripping story!
--
Todd

Yes, try and switch boxes with your nephew and see what happens.

I'm not sure how much difference you're seeing, but there will be a
difference between the two 10s and the two 12s. I would tend to think it
has more to do with box placement and the size of the trunks. I'm assuming
the trunk in the Cutlass is WAY bigger than Corolla. Switching boxes should
answer some questions.

Tony


--



What's more likely? That an all-powerful mysterious god created the
universe and then decided not to give any proof of his existence? Or, that
he simply doesn't exist at all? And that we created him so that we wouldn't
have to feel so small and alone. -Eleanor Arroway, Contact

"Doug" wrote in message
...
I set mine just low enough that I couldn't tell that the sound was
coming from the trunk. It's fairly low. I don't remember where we
set his, but you couldn't tell the sound was coming from the trunk.
Even when I turned the crossover up so that I could definitely tell
where the sound was coming from, it's still not really what I was
expecting. It is a bit louder, however.

I'm going to try to visit my nephew and do some comparisons and try
his subs in my trunk and vice versa. ...but I think his family is
outta town. I'm also gonna try the JL subs and see what they sound
like with both amps.

Is there that much difference between 10's and 12's? The Crutchfield
tech advisor seemed to think that was the main difference. He didn't
think the box size was an issue, which was what I was concerned about.

Should I maybe get a pair of 12's and run them offa the ESX amp
instead? ...use what I have now in the Burban.

On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 14:58:07 -0700, "Tony Fernandes"
wrote:

What frequency do you and your nephew have the subs crossed over at?

Tony

I think the truth about a "creator" or the nature of the universe or what
happens after we die transcends conscious thought. It's not even something
you and I can discuss becuase of our finite ability to comprehend. I'll
stipulate their MAY be a creator if you can stipulate that there may NOT be
one. Becuase really, neither of us really knows for sure. ;-)

Tony


--



What's more likely? That an all-powerful mysterious god created the
universe and then decided not to give any proof of his existence? Or, that
he simply doesn't exist at all? And that we created him so that we wouldn't
have to feel so small and alone. -Eleanor Arroway, Contact

"Todd" wrote in message
news:8_zzc.758735$oR5.318449@pd7tw3no...
Well, if a person ignores the evidence ...
--
Todd

Tony,

Thanks for letting me pick your brain. His trunk is quite a bit
bigger than mine. I also remembered what subs he had; they are
Profile Baja subs, made for slightly larger box than the Polks I
bought. If I remember correctly, the box he got had a port hole
covered with an insert, so it is probably a rather large box.

I'll know more later this week when I get a chance to go see him.

Doug

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 12:57:32 -0700, "Tony Fernandes"
wrote:

Yes, try and switch boxes with your nephew and see what happens.

I'm not sure how much difference you're seeing, but there will be a
difference between the two 10s and the two 12s. I would tend to think it
has more to do with box placement and the size of the trunks. I'm assuming
the trunk in the Cutlass is WAY bigger than Corolla. Switching boxes should
answer some questions.

Tony

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 13:01:17 -0700, "Tony Fernandes"
wrote:

I think the truth about a "creator" or the nature of the universe or what
happens after we die transcends conscious thought. It's not even something
you and I can discuss becuase of our finite ability to comprehend. I'll
stipulate their MAY be a creator if you can stipulate that there may NOT be
one. Becuase really, neither of us really knows for sure. ;-)

Tony


Exactly. Both are a matter of faith. One is a faith in an unproven
scientific explanation thought up by a guy in the 19th century; the
other is a faith in an ancient book proven historically accurate in
many regards (at least for Judeo-Christian faith systems). There is
evidence to support both sides, but not evidence to prove either.

Agnostics are much more honest with themselves and the world than are
atheists. Atheists refuse to admit that they subscribe to a
faith-based system. That's dishonest.

Now, about those pesky subs...

Right on Todd. If someone believes that all this happened by chance
they have a whole lot more faith than I do. And I believe in a God
that most people (including myself) have never seen. Just the evidence
of Him that is all around us. =)

Everything happens "by chance". Or, more accurately, is dictated perhaps by
the second law of thermodynamics. It's not exactly magic, folks...

Exactly. Both are a matter of faith. One is a faith in an unproven
scientific explanation thought up by a guy in the 19th century;

There is much more evidence supporting what that guy said than there is
supporting what that book said. Scientists encounter this evidence on a
daily basis.

the
other is a faith in an ancient book proven historically accurate in
many regards (at least for Judeo-Christian faith systems).

It has been proven inaccurate in many more regards...

There is
evidence to support both sides, but not evidence to prove either.

Right. So, in order to determine which is more plausible, you need to weigh
the evidence supporting both sides. However, I should point out that the
two theories are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

Agnostics are much more honest with themselves and the world than are
atheists. Atheists refuse to admit that they subscribe to a
faith-based system. That's dishonest.

The line between the two can be hard to pinpoint sometimes. Many people
consider themselves atheists because they find that the creationism story
highly unlikely, rather than subscribing to a single explanation.

Everything happens "by chance". Or, more accurately, is dictated perhaps by
the second law of thermodynamics. It's not exactly magic, folks...

Oh really?

What about the law of thermodynamics that states everything is in a constant state of
decay?

Your guy Darwin insisted that life became more complex as time went by. A direct
contradiction of this IRREFUTABLE law. (Not theory ...

Talk about having faith in the impossible.
--
Todd

Tony,

No one can force anyone to believe there is a Creator. He simply offers you
incontrovertible evidence that he exists and tells you to sit up and honestly pay
attention after that. This road, faithfully followed, leads to eternal life where YOU can
actually travel anywhere in the universe and understand all that "transcends conscious
thought." You and I will then be able to discuss it because we will have infinite ability
to comprehend.

And that in a nutshell is what the Gospel speaks of
--
Todd

Doug,

You wrote:

"Agnostics are much more honest with themselves and the world than are
atheists. Atheists refuse to admit that they subscribe to a
faith-based system. That's dishonest."

My view of agnostics is that they are less honest than atheists. Atheists at least
take a stand. Agnostics, by definition, offer no conslusion on the matter of whether God
exists or not. I suspect God has an easier time stomaching out and out disbelief than he
does those so dishonest you won't even make a stand.
--
Todd

"Tony Fernandes" wrote in message ...
I think the truth about a "creator" or the nature of the universe or what
happens after we die transcends conscious thought. It's not even something
you and I can discuss becuase of our finite ability to comprehend. I'll
stipulate their MAY be a creator if you can stipulate that there may NOT be
one. Becuase really, neither of us really knows for sure. ;-)

Tony

Well Tony, I'm not going to go into all the ways that God has shown me
that He is indeed real. It's not something I could prove to you, but I
could never deny Him.

But, for arguments sake let's stipulate that there may not be a god.

If I'm right, then I get eternal life in Heaven. And unbelievers are
punished forever.
If you're right, then we die that's it. The End. And I have just
"wasted" my life loving others as myself.

Who's got more to lose? Are you comfortable with the fact that you
just may be wrong? I know that our finite ability to comprehend can
not fathom how terrible eternity in Hell would be. But if you're wrong
that would be the biggest mistake of your life =(

Dan

MZ,

You wrote:

"It has been proven inaccurate in many more regards..."

I would direct you to what the great scientist Gallileo had to say on this. I
paraphase: "The Bible and true science do not contradict each other. Where there is a
perceived contradiction the answer is that we do not yet understand exactly how it is that
they work together."
--
Todd

"Tony Fernandes" wrote in message ...
I think the truth about a "creator" or the nature of the universe or what
happens after we die transcends conscious thought. It's not even something
you and I can discuss becuase of our finite ability to comprehend. I'll
stipulate their MAY be a creator if you can stipulate that there may NOT be
one. Becuase really, neither of us really knows for sure. ;-)

Tony


Well Tony, I'm not going to go into all the ways that God has shown me
that He is indeed real. It's not something I could prove to you, but I
could never deny Him.

But, for arguments sake let's stipulate that there may not be a god.

If I'm right, then I get eternal life in Heaven. And unbelievers are
punished forever.
If you're right, then we die that's it. The End. And I have just
"wasted" my life loving others as myself.

Who's got more to lose? Are you comfortable with the fact that you
just may be wrong? I know that our finite ability to comprehend can
not fathom how terrible eternity in Hell would be. But if you're wrong
that would be the biggest mistake of your life =(

Dan

"Tony Fernandes" wrote in message ...
I think the truth about a "creator" or the nature of the universe or what
happens after we die transcends conscious thought. It's not even something
you and I can discuss becuase of our finite ability to comprehend. I'll
stipulate their MAY be a creator if you can stipulate that there may NOT be
one. Becuase really, neither of us really knows for sure. ;-)

Tony

Well Tony, I'm not going to go into all the ways that God has shown me
that He is indeed real. It's not something I could prove to you, but I
could never deny Him.

But, for arguments sake let's stipulate that there may not be a god.

If I'm right, then I get eternal life in Heaven. And unbelievers are
punished forever.
If you're right, then we die that's it. The End. And I have just
"wasted" my life loving others as myself.

Who's got more to lose? Are you comfortable with the fact that you
just may be wrong? I know that our finite ability to comprehend can
not fathom how terrible eternity in Hell would be. But if you're wrong
that would be the biggest mistake of your life =(

Dan

Everything happens "by chance". Or, more accurately, is dictated perhaps
by
the second law of thermodynamics. It's not exactly magic, folks...

Oh really?

What about the law of thermodynamics that states everything is in a
constant state of
decay?

Which law is that?

Your guy Darwin insisted that life became more complex as time went by. A
direct
contradiction of this IRREFUTABLE law. (Not theory ...

I believe you're confused. There's no such "irrefutable law". Doesn't such
a law seem counterintuitive? What's decaying? Are you confusing the term
"entropy" with "disorder" (as some introductory textbooks like to draw
parallels to), and then misinterpreting "disorder" to mean "decay"?

Anyway, if what you're referring to is evolution, then it's obviously the
way of the world, so to speak. This is plain as day to anyone in the
biology professions. It should be worth noting, however, that many folks
who firmly acknowledge evolution are also religious. They just don't
generally take the book of genesis as gospel (pardon the pun). Evolution
jives with the existence of a god or gods.

But that's not really the point I was making. The point I was making was
that, contrary to what the original poster implied, "chance" isn't quite as
random as we may think...

"It has been proven inaccurate in many more regards..."

I would direct you to what the great scientist Gallileo had to say on
this. I
paraphase: "The Bible and true science do not contradict each other. Where
there is a
perceived contradiction the answer is that we do not yet understand
exactly how it is that
they work together."

I agree with this. On the other hand, you bring up historical accuracies
(even Dickens was historically accurate) as evidence, but dismiss stories of
people being turned into pillars of salt as merely something that we "do not
yet understand".

My view of agnostics is that they are less honest than atheists.
Atheists at least
take a stand. Agnostics, by definition, offer no conslusion on the matter
of whether God
exists or not.

What makes you so sure YOU know the answer? Are you smarter than thousands
of years worth of philosophers who have been endlessly debating the issue?

I suggest you take a gander at your Webster's dictionary and look up the
word "faith".

If I'm right, then I get eternal life in Heaven. And unbelievers are
punished forever.

Sounds like a sadistic fellow, no?

MZ,

This is not a perfect forum for discussing all the intracies of whether or not God
exists. I direct you to this site: http://str.org/free/commentaries/evolution/index.htm
which does a far more comprehensive job of explaining the intricasies of this subject than
I can here.

Bon appetite
--
Todd

I don't dismiss stories of people being turned into pillars of salt. Any being great
enough to have created life, the universe and everything in it would have no problem
turning a human into a pillar of salt.
--
Todd

I guess what I don't understand is this: how did evolution get brought
into this? What makes evolution and the existence of a supreme being
inconsistent with each other? Most Christians that I know don't espouse a
literalist interpretation of the bible. A supreme being can indeed exist
and "create" a physical framework whereby evolution can occur. IMO, the
religious community is in for a rough ride if they keep insisting that the
theory of evolution threatens their religion and must therefore be wrong.

--
Mark
remove "remove" and "spam" to reply


"Todd" wrote in message
news:E84Ac.733751$Pk3.236054@pd7tw1no...
MZ,

This is not a perfect forum for discussing all the intracies of
whether or not God
exists. I direct you to this site:
http://str.org/free/commentaries/evolution/index.htm
which does a far more comprehensive job of explaining the intricasies of
this subject than
I can here.

Bon appetite
--
Todd

I don't dismiss stories of people being turned into pillars of salt. Any
being great
enough to have created life, the universe and everything in it would have
no problem
turning a human into a pillar of salt.

How do you reconcile this belief with the laws of physics? Or did the laws
of physics somehow momentarily cease to be so that this trick could be
pulled off?

And, perhaps more importantly, what evidence do you have that it actually
happened?

MZ,

You wrote:

"What makes you so sure YOU know the answer? Are you smarter than thousands
of years worth of philosophers who have been endlessly debating the issue?

I suggest you take a gander at your Webster's dictionary and look up the
word "faith"."

The way Websters defines faith is meaningless. The way the Bible defines it is as
follows.

(Heb 11:1 NIV) Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not
see.

Thus faith is simply defined as believing. Are we to simply believe anything at all?
No.

(Heb 3:1 NIV) Therefore, holy brothers, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your
thoughts on Jesus, the apostle and high priest whom we confess.

(Heb 3:2 NIV) He was faithful to the one who appointed him, just as Moses was faithful in
all God's house.

(Heb 3:3 NIV) Jesus has been found worthy of greater honor than Moses, just as the
builder of a house has greater honor than the house itself.

(Heb 3:4 NIV) For every house is built by someone, but God is the builder of everything.

(Heb 3:5 NIV) Moses was faithful as a servant in all God's house, testifying to what
would be said in the future.

(Heb 3:6 NIV) But Christ is faithful as a son over God's house. And we are his house, if
we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast.

(Heb 3:7 NIV) So, as the Holy Spirit says: "Today, if you hear his voice,

(Heb 3:8 NIV) do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion, during the time of
testing in the desert,

(Heb 3:9 NIV) where your fathers tested and tried me and for forty years saw what I did.

(Heb 3:10 NIV) That is why I was angry with that generation, and I said, 'Their hearts
are always going astray, and they have not known my ways.'

(Heb 3:11 NIV) So I declared on oath in my anger, 'They shall never enter my rest.'"

(Heb 3:12 NIV) See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that
turns away from the living God.

(Heb 3:13 NIV) But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that
none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness.

(Heb 3:14 NIV) We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the
confidence we had at first.

(Heb 3:15 NIV) As has just been said: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your
hearts as you did in the rebellion."

(Heb 3:16 NIV) Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led
out of Egypt?

(Heb 3:17 NIV) And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who
sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert?

(Heb 3:18 NIV) And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to
those who disobeyed ?

(Heb 3:19 NIV) So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

(Heb 4:1 NIV) Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be
careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it.

(Heb 4:2 NIV) For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the
message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it
with faith.

(Heb 4:3 NIV) Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said, "So I
declared on oath in my anger, 'They shall never enter my rest.'" And yet his work has been
finished since the creation of the world.

(Heb 4:4 NIV) For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: "And on
the seventh day God rested from all his work."

(Heb 4:5 NIV) And again in the passage above he says, "They shall never enter my rest."

(Heb 4:6 NIV) It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had
the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience.

(Heb 4:7 NIV) Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time
later he spoke through David, as was said befo "Today, if you hear his voice, do not
harden your hearts."

(Heb 4:8 NIV) For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about
another day.

(Heb 4:9 NIV) There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God;

(Heb 4:10 NIV) for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God
did from his.

(Heb 4:11 NIV) Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one
will fall by following their example of disobedience.

(Heb 4:12 NIV) For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged
sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the
thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

(Heb 4:13 NIV) Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is
uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

These were people that were brought out of slavery in Egypt by many irrefutable proofs
of God's existence, yet they refused to believe that he could provide for them.

So I claim no greater wisdom than ages of philosophers have. That is vanity. I take
God at his word and examine honestly the evidence he provides. That which troubles me or
seems impossible, for whatever reason, I take on the good and trustworthy word of my
Creator because he has never failed me in the past with regard to his promises.
--
Todd

Well, since God created the laws of physics and upholds them to this day, why couldn't he
operate outside of the laws he himself created?

"what evidence do you have that it actually happened?

I wasn't there so I must take that statement of Lot's wife on faith. But God wouldn't lie
to any of us. It is impossible for him to sin. So, we believe what he says in scripture
because we have examined the evidence he provides and found it to be true. Thus we accept
as true those things which he states have happened.
--
Todd

This is the wrong place to discuss this, so I'll just say that you are
correct in evolution threatens my faith. When evolution is proven,
the Bible is disproven, and I become an atheist. Explaining away
Genesis undermines the entire Bible. No creation, no god.

Right now, evidence does not fully support evolution. If evolution
were fact, we'd see a gradual change of species from one to another,
with increasing diversity as time passes. Instead, the fossil record
is replete with zillions of instances of different species, with less
and less diversity as time passes. There are a very few instances
(Archeopteryx, platypus) that seem to show evolution, but the vast
majority shows distinct speciation, not gradual change. ...and don't
forget speciation is a classification thought up by humans to explain
what they see. Many different species (I'm referring mostly to
invertebrates here) are in fact the same creatures, or "kind" if you
will.

Now I'm done (I hope), as this is really the wrong place. ...just
wanted to point out that the science does not fully support either
side, and creation makes more sense to many than the "magic" of
evolution.

I'm still not happy with my subs. :-(



On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 19:00:30 -0400, "MZ"
wrote:

I guess what I don't understand is this: how did evolution get brought
into this? What makes evolution and the existence of a supreme being
inconsistent with each other? Most Christians that I know don't espouse a
literalist interpretation of the bible. A supreme being can indeed exist
and "create" a physical framework whereby evolution can occur. IMO, the
religious community is in for a rough ride if they keep insisting that the
theory of evolution threatens their religion and must therefore be wrong.

I really wasn't going to continue this discussion here, but oh well.

When you look objectively at geology, biology, and the fossil record,
there are inconsistencies with either view. Evolution is not proven
nor fully supported by observation.

Since neither extreme can be (so far) scientifically proven, both
extremes require faith. Agnostics and religious people are the truely
honest ones. Religious people admit to faith; agnostics lack faith
either way, so rely only on observation. To be an atheist also
requires faith. It's just that all atheists I've run across refuse to
admit it. That's dishonest.

On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 21:22:55 GMT, "Todd" wrote:

Doug,

You wrote:

"Agnostics are much more honest with themselves and the world than are
atheists. Atheists refuse to admit that they subscribe to a
faith-based system. That's dishonest."

My view of agnostics is that they are less honest than atheists. Atheists at least
take a stand. Agnostics, by definition, offer no conslusion on the matter of whether God
exists or not. I suspect God has an easier time stomaching out and out disbelief than he
does those so dishonest you won't even make a stand.

"what evidence do you have that it actually happened?

I wasn't there so I must take that statement of Lot's wife on faith.

Why? Did you talk to her?

But God wouldn't lie
to any of us. It is impossible for him to sin. So, we believe what he says
in scripture

How do you know he said it?

because we have examined the evidence he provides and found it to be true.

What evidence is that?

This is the wrong place to discuss this, so I'll just say that you are
correct in evolution threatens my faith. When evolution is proven,
the Bible is disproven, and I become an atheist. Explaining away
Genesis undermines the entire Bible. No creation, no god.

Millions of christians would disagree with you on that point. So is
creation of the human (which we know didn't come first) a necessary tenet
for the existence of a god? Hardly. At the very worst, maybe it would mean
that your religion isn't the right one after all.


Right now, evidence does not fully support evolution. If evolution
were fact, we'd see a gradual change of species from one to another,
with increasing diversity as time passes.

Why?

Instead, the fossil record
is replete with zillions of instances of different species, with less
and less diversity as time passes. There are a very few instances
(Archeopteryx, platypus) that seem to show evolution, but the vast
majority shows distinct speciation, not gradual change. ...and don't
forget speciation is a classification thought up by humans to explain
what they see. Many different species (I'm referring mostly to
invertebrates here) are in fact the same creatures, or "kind" if you
will.

Now I'm done (I hope), as this is really the wrong place. ...just
wanted to point out that the science does not fully support either
side, and creation makes more sense to many than the "magic" of
evolution.

I'm still not happy with my subs. :-(

Science is much more supportive of one side than the other. Ask some other
scientists and they'll tell you.

Why? Did you talk to her?

Well, what do you think? Don't be stupid.

How do you know he said it?

It is in the scriptures, so it is true. You don't have to believe and are wise not to
until you prove it for yourself.

What evidence is that?

This, for a starter:

(Rom 1:16 NIV) I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the
salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

(Rom 1:17 NIV) For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness
that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by
faith."

(Rom 1:18 NIV) The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness
and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness,

(Rom 1:19 NIV) since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made
it plain to them.

(Rom 1:20 NIV) For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal
power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made,
so that men are without excuse.

(Rom 1:21 NIV) For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave
thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

(Rom 1:22 NIV) Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools

(Rom 1:23 NIV) and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like
mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

(Rom 1:24 NIV) Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to
sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.

(Rom 1:25 NIV) They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served
created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.

(Rom 1:26 NIV) Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women
exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.

(Rom 1:27 NIV) In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and
were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and
received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

(Rom 1:28 NIV) Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the
knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.

(Rom 1:29 NIV) They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and
depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips,

(Rom 1:30 NIV) slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways
of doing evil; they disobey their parents;

(Rom 1:31 NIV) they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless.

(Rom 1:32 NIV) Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things
deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those
who practice them.

(Rom 2:1 NIV) You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for
at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass
judgment do the same things.

(Rom 2:2 NIV) Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based
on truth.

(Rom 2:3 NIV) So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things,
do you think you will escape God's judgment?

(Rom 2:4 NIV) Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and
patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?

(Rom 2:5 NIV) But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are
storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment
will be revealed.

(Rom 2:6 NIV) God "will give to each person according to what he has done."

(Rom 2:7 NIV) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and
immortality, he will give eternal life.

(Rom 2:8 NIV) But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow
evil, there will be wrath and anger.

(Rom 2:9 NIV) There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil:
first for the Jew, then for the Gentile;

(Rom 2:10 NIV) but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew,
then for the Gentile.

(Rom 2:11 NIV) For God does not show favoritism.

(Rom 2:12 NIV) All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and
all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.

(Rom 2:13 NIV) For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but
it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

(Rom 2:14 NIV) (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things
required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law,

(Rom 2:15 NIV) since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their
hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even
defending them.)

(Rom 2:16 NIV) This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through
Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

(Rom 2:17 NIV) Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and brag about
your relationship to God;

(Rom 2:18 NIV) if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are
instructed by the law;

(Rom 2:19 NIV) if you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those
who are in the dark,

(Rom 2:20 NIV) an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of infants, because you have in
the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth--

(Rom 2:21 NIV) you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach
against stealing, do you steal?

(Rom 2:22 NIV) You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit
adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples?

(Rom 2:23 NIV) You who brag about the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law?

(Rom 2:24 NIV) As it is written: "God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of
you."

(Rom 2:25 NIV) Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law,
you have become as though you had not been circumcised.

(Rom 2:26 NIV) If those who are not circumcised keep the law's requirements, will they
not be regarded as though they were circumcised?

(Rom 2:27 NIV) The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will
condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker.

(Rom 2:28 NIV) A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely
outward and physical.

(Rom 2:29 NIV) No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision
of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men,
but from God.

Clearly, God states that the evidence he exists is the fact you live in a creation.
You can accept this or dismiss it. It is up to you. It is called free will.

The Stand To Reason website has a great deal of info regarding this. Please read it
before asking more questions that you could answer for yourself.
--
Todd

"MZ" wrote in message ...
If I'm right, then I get eternal life in Heaven. And unbelievers are
punished forever.

Sounds like a sadistic fellow, no?

No, sounds like a just fellow to me.

Break the rules pay the price. Or wait, no God must be wrong, I'm sure
YOU are worthy of judging Him.

Dan

P.S. Sorry for the double post ;p

Todd wrote: " No one can force anyone to believe there is a Creator. He
simply offers you incontrovertible evidence that he exists and tells you to
sit up and honestly pay attention after that."

I can honestly say that in the 32 years I've been alive, I have not once
seen any incontrovertible evidence that a god exists. And believe me, if
for one second I did, if I felt that a god existed, I would believe in it.

And again: "This road, faithfully followed, leads to eternal life where YOU
can
actually travel anywhere in the universe and understand all that "transcends
conscious thought."

If I thought for one second that the Bible was the word of God, I would
believe it. I don't believe everything I read. No one that I know or who
I've talked to can offer me proof that the God exists and that following His
road will lead to eternal life. Who knows, maybe it does...but I seriously
doubt it. When I die it'll be interesting to see what happens.

Tony

--



What's more likely? That an all-powerful mysterious god created the
universe and then decided not to give any proof of his existence? Or, that
he simply doesn't exist at all? And that we created him so that we wouldn't
have to feel so small and alone. -Eleanor Arroway, Contact

"Todd" wrote in message
news:mP2Ac.768768$oR5.549461@pd7tw3no...
Tony,

No one can force anyone to believe there is a Creator. He simply
offers you
incontrovertible evidence that he exists and tells you to sit up and
honestly pay
attention after that. This road, faithfully followed, leads to eternal
life where YOU can
actually travel anywhere in the universe and understand all that
"transcends conscious
thought." You and I will then be able to discuss it because we will have
infinite ability
to comprehend.

And that in a nutshell is what the Gospel speaks of
--
Todd

Dan wrote: "Well Tony, I'm not going to go into all the ways that God has
shown me that He is indeed real. It's not something I could prove to you,
but I
could never deny Him."

I'm happy that you have such a good relationship with God. In fact, I'm
downright jealous. You have a faith that a god created you and loves you.
If you are true to him and live your life like he wants you to, you are
promised eternal life with him in heaven. Me? Well, I don't know what the
heck created all this stuff around me and quite frankly just the fact that I
can question such a thing astounds me even more. Worse, I have absolutely
no idea what will happen when I die. Pretty scary! Now you may be a
happier person becuase of your beliefs. Because you have a sense of
belonging and purpose in life as where I will always question such things.
But I think it's normal for any being to question their exsistence and place
in the universe. Which takes me back to my signatu "And that we created
him so that we wouldn't have to feel so small and alone." Now I really
don't now if "something" created the universe or not. But if something did,
I hardly think the Bible is the authority on such events. I'm also one of
those people that believes there is probably other intelligent life in
space. And if there is, I doubt they worship the same creator we do. Once
again, if a creator exisits then maybe he created other intelligent life
too. But certainly such life would have their own "Bible" and their owns
sets of beliefs.

Dan wrote again: "If I'm right, then I get eternal life in Heaven. And
unbelievers are punished forever. If you're right, then we die that's it.
The End. And I have just "wasted" my life loving others as myself.

No. That's not what I said. What I'm saying is that I have no idea what
happens when we die. It might not be the end and it may be the end. And if
there's no god you most certainly haven't wasted your life loving others!!
Wouldn't you love others because YOU think it's the right thing to do? Not
just becuase God said so.

And Dan also wrote: "Who's got more to lose? Are you comfortable with the
fact that you just may be wrong? I know that our finite ability to
comprehend can not fathom how terrible eternity in Hell would be. But if
you're wrong
that would be the biggest mistake of your life =("

I'm not going to believe in God just so I can be happier knowing what will
happen to me if I do. If I believed in God it would have to be so becuase I
actually believed in him...which I don't. And if I'm not mistaken,
according to gospel, won't all the non-believers just burn in a lake of fire
and cease to exist? But you're absolutley right, Dan. If I'm wrong and
there is a God as per the Bible, then I am making the biggest mistake of my
life. And God can say whatever he wants about me when I die. He could
fault me for not believing in him, but he won't be able to say I was a bad
person in terms of my getting along with my fellow man.

Wow. That was a mouthful, wasn't it? Any more news on your subs, Doug?

Tony



What's more likely? That an all-powerful mysterious god created the
universe and then decided not to give any proof of his existence? Or, that
he simply doesn't exist at all? And that we created him so that we wouldn't
have to feel so small and alone. -Eleanor Arroway, Contact

"Dan Erick" wrote in message
om...
"Tony Fernandes" wrote in message
...
I think the truth about a "creator" or the nature of the universe or
what
happens after we die transcends conscious thought. It's not even
something
you and I can discuss becuase of our finite ability to comprehend. I'll
stipulate their MAY be a creator if you can stipulate that there may NOT
be
one. Becuase really, neither of us really knows for sure. ;-)

Tony

Well Tony, I'm not going to go into all the ways that God has shown me
that He is indeed real. It's not something I could prove to you, but I
could never deny Him.

But, for arguments sake let's stipulate that there may not be a god.

If I'm right, then I get eternal life in Heaven. And unbelievers are
punished forever.
If you're right, then we die that's it. The End. And I have just
"wasted" my life loving others as myself.

Who's got more to lose? Are you comfortable with the fact that you
just may be wrong? I know that our finite ability to comprehend can
not fathom how terrible eternity in Hell would be. But if you're wrong
that would be the biggest mistake of your life =(

Dan