Hi everyone,
I'm an amateur sound engineer in my mid-twenties and can barely hear
anything above, say, a bit over 19 kHz. I recently ran a sine wave test to a
60-year old man, his hearing was limited to 8 kHz. This led to me thinking
about how my own hearing would deteriorate in future!

Anyway, I thought I'd ran a little survey he How far up can you hear?

My second question:
The thing I'm a bit worried about is that my ears are far away from a
"symmetrical frequency response" in other words my right ear is more attuned
to the speech area, whereas the left one is better at hearing the stuff over
16 kHz. For example when I'm pondering whether to pan a cymbal track far
left or far right, it sounds a bit different on both sides(especially with
haedphones of course). Obviously, no one has a perfectly symmetrical ear
response but I don't have anything to relate to, so I don't know how
different my ears actually are. Anyway, is this something I should be
considering as an obstacle for my beginning engineering career, do engineers
usually have to have an especially symmetrical ear response, or is this
perfectly normal?

Thanks for the help!

In article , Tommi wrote:
I'm an amateur sound engineer in my mid-twenties and can barely hear
anything above, say, a bit over 19 kHz. I recently ran a sine wave test to a
60-year old man, his hearing was limited to 8 kHz. This led to me thinking
about how my own hearing would deteriorate in future!

Protect your hearing! If you are careful and you carry earplugs wherever
you go, and you don't subject yourself to excessive noise levels, you can
expect to keep that response for most of the rest of your life.

Anyway, I thought I'd ran a little survey he How far up can you hear?

My hearing is okay up to 16 KC, then it drops down a bit. I can hear 18 KC
tones, but they have to be fairly loud. When I was a kid, I could hear
22 KC tones, but that wasa long time ago.

My second question:
The thing I'm a bit worried about is that my ears are far away from a
"symmetrical frequency response" in other words my right ear is more attuned
to the speech area, whereas the left one is better at hearing the stuff over
16 kHz. For example when I'm pondering whether to pan a cymbal track far
left or far right, it sounds a bit different on both sides(especially with
haedphones of course). Obviously, no one has a perfectly symmetrical ear
response but I don't have anything to relate to, so I don't know how
different my ears actually are. Anyway, is this something I should be
considering as an obstacle for my beginning engineering career, do engineers
usually have to have an especially symmetrical ear response, or is this
perfectly normal?

This is usually caused by environmental factors, most notably driving
with the window down a lot.

I have a minor example of it, and it has definitely affected the way I
perceive imaging a bit, but it hasn't done too much harm.

Wear earplugs when driving with the windows down to prevent it from
getting worse.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

"Tommi" wrote in message
...
Hi everyone,
I'm an amateur sound engineer in my mid-twenties and can barely hear
anything above, say, a bit over 19 kHz. I recently ran a sine wave test to
a
60-year old man, his hearing was limited to 8 kHz. This led to me thinking
about how my own hearing would deteriorate in future!

Anyway, I thought I'd ran a little survey he How far up can you hear?

My second question:
The thing I'm a bit worried about is that my ears are far away from a
"symmetrical frequency response" in other words my right ear is more
attuned
to the speech area, whereas the left one is better at hearing the stuff
over
16 kHz. For example when I'm pondering whether to pan a cymbal track far
left or far right, it sounds a bit different on both sides(especially with
haedphones of course). Obviously, no one has a perfectly symmetrical ear
response but I don't have anything to relate to, so I don't know how
different my ears actually are. Anyway, is this something I should be
considering as an obstacle for my beginning engineering career, do
engineers
usually have to have an especially symmetrical ear response, or is this
perfectly normal?

Thanks for the help!

Yup, your hearing will deteriorate with age. When I was 19, I could hear up
to about 18KHz both ears. Now I'm 41, I can hear 16K one ear, 14.5 in the
other.

Don't stress about any assymmetry, or even your ceiling coming down. The
software in your brain does an AMAZING job of compensating for all sorts of
deficiencies.

I've found it hugely helpful to:
1) Set a reference for your ears by listening to a known standard recording
for 10-15 mins at very moderate levels
2) Learn to recognize when your ears are getting tired. It's helpful to
take a short break, and then re-reference at this point.
--
John Cafarella
End Of the Road Studio
Melbourne, Australia

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
In article , Tommi
wrote:
I'm an amateur sound engineer in my mid-twenties and can barely hear
anything above, say, a bit over 19 kHz. I recently ran a sine wave test
to a
60-year old man, his hearing was limited to 8 kHz. This led to me
thinking
about how my own hearing would deteriorate in future!

Protect your hearing! If you are careful and you carry earplugs wherever
you go, and you don't subject yourself to excessive noise levels, you can
expect to keep that response for most of the rest of your life.

Anyway, I thought I'd ran a little survey he How far up can you hear?

My hearing is okay up to 16 KC, then it drops down a bit. I can hear 18
KC
tones, but they have to be fairly loud. When I was a kid, I could hear
22 KC tones, but that wasa long time ago.



Are there specific earplugs that you'd recommend? That don't cost and arm
and a leg? Because I couldn't stomach a big price tag.
(And this isn't just lip service.)

--
Steve Holt
INNER MUSIC
Music Creation & Production
http://www.inner-music.com
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/steveholt

Tommi wrote:

Anyway, I thought I'd ran a little survey he How far up can you hear?


41 years old, hearing still works to 19 kHz. As a kid I could hear
22.5-24 kHz ultrasonic alarms really well (they caused pain.) I wear
earplugs whenever I listen to amplified music, when I drive over 30
minutes in my truck, when I use a Skillsaw, etc.

Depends how quiet it is outside. Some time I can hear a mile away

Tommi wrote:
Hi everyone,
I'm an amateur sound engineer in my mid-twenties and can barely hear

So, the asymmetry is nothing I should worry about too much? It's just kinda
depressing when I put a full spectrum sweep from 30 Hz to 20kHz at a very
low volume where I can just about hear the whole sweep and suddenly the
"stereo image" jumps from the middle to far left at 16 kHz for a while. Of
course, if I just create a single 16kHz wave and put it much louder than the
sweep then my right ear 's back in action. So the hair cell isn't dead, i
suppose..just less sensitive.


Scott wrote:
"I have a minor example of it, and it has definitely affected the way I
perceive imaging a bit, but it hasn't done too much harm."

John wrote:
"Don't stress about any assymmetry, or even your ceiling coming down. The
software in your brain does an AMAZING job of compensating for all sorts of
deficiencies."

"Tommi" wrote in message
...
So, the asymmetry is nothing I should worry about too much? It's just
kinda
depressing when I put a full spectrum sweep from 30 Hz to 20kHz at a very
low volume where I can just about hear the whole sweep and suddenly the
"stereo image" jumps from the middle to far left at 16 kHz for a while. Of
course, if I just create a single 16kHz wave and put it much louder than
the
sweep then my right ear 's back in action. So the hair cell isn't dead, i
suppose..just less sensitive.

Three names: Brian Wilson, Stevie Wonder, Beethoven.

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
Steve Holt wrote:

Are there specific earplugs that you'd recommend? That don't cost and arm
and a leg? Because I couldn't stomach a big price tag.
(And this isn't just lip service.)

You can spend a lot of money for earplugs that actually have accurate high
end response. If you mix at high levels or do a lot of PA work where you
need to make accurate decisions at high levels, this is a good idea.
I know Etymotic makes them, probably other folks do, and an audiologist
can set you up.

If you want cheap earplugs, there are lots of companies making good ones.
The foam kind don't affect the high end and the midrange the same way,
which is a problem for mixing but not a problem at all for driving or
operating machinery. We normally get the lowest bid ones. Last time
we got a box it was from Cabot Safety Products and they were something
like $50 for 200 pairs. I always keep a pair or two around in every
jacket and more in the glove compartment of the car.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

The horizontal oscillator frequency of TV sets used to drive me nuts years
ago, but I don't hear it anymore now. When I was recently setting the bias
on my Otari I could just barely make out the 10kc tone using phones and I
couldn't hear the 16kc tone at all, although the meters showed it was there
at 0db. Old age has caught up to me I suspect.

Geoley

In article , says...
41 years old, hearing still works to 19 kHz. As a kid I could hear
22.5-24 kHz ultrasonic alarms really well (they caused pain.)

Really - are all ultrasonic alarms that high?! I can only hear a little
past 18K, but I still can't walk into some shoe stores without pain -
DSW comes to mind. (What is it about shoe stores and ultrasonic alarms,
anyway?) When I was a child, my mom used to have to ask the staff to
turn off the alarms whenever we went shopping for shoes.

I'm surprised that things I can't hear can still cause pain. (Insert
appropriate ex-girlfriend joke here.)

--
Jay Levitt |
Wellesley, MA | Hi!
Faster: jay at jay dot eff-em | Where are we going?
http://www.jay.fm | Why am I in this handbasket?

In article , steve@inner-
musicNOSPAM.com says...
I wouldn't wear earplugs for mixing, as I tend to mix at low or modest
levels, and crank it for short period only. Actually, I was thinking more
for live performance work as a performer. On the bandstand it can get pretty
loud.

If you get the Etymotic custom earmolds, they come with one set of
filters (you choose 9 dB, 15 dB or 25 dB), and you can pop in and out
other filter sets as the situation dictates. I tend to use 15 dB when
performing near a drummer, and 25 dB at Cirque du Soleil... you can also
use the same earmolds with the Etymotic ER-6 earphones, which will give
you about 20 dB isolation. The nice thing about the Etymotics - or any
other deep earmold - is that not only do you avoid the muffled sound
that comes from an overly attenuated high end, but you also don't get
the "occlusion effect", where things sound echo-y and hollow.

A good audiologist will also check the earplugs once the molds come
back, and make sure that you truly are getting a flat response from
them. My last audiologist didn't do that, and I only recently realized
that I was getting no protection in one ear because one plug didn't fit.
When they're properly adjusted, it's like an Aphex Compellor or an RNC
in super-nice - you think they're not working, but everything is softer.

FWIW, I had wondered if it was really such a good idea to keep swapping
filters - would I eventually wear down the edges of the earmold and
reduce isolation? My new audiologist assures me that the molds are
durable, and in fact she pops her filters in and out several dozen times
a day just fiddling, with no ill effects.

The whole shebang costs about USD 150 - less than the piece of gear you
bought. How much is your hearing worth?

--
Jay Levitt |
Wellesley, MA | Hi!
Faster: jay at jay dot eff-em | Where are we going?
http://www.jay.fm | Why am I in this handbasket?

Three names: Brian Wilson, Stevie Wonder, Beethoven.

I know Brian is deaf in one ear and IIRC Beethoven went completely deaf, but
Stevie? I worked with him a bit in the 70's and wasn't aware that he had any
significant hearing loss. Where does he fit into the list?
Ted Spencer, NYC

"No amount of classical training will ever teach you what's so cool about
"Tighten Up" by Archie Bell And The Drells" -author unknown

So, the asymmetry is nothing I should worry about too much?

The brain compensates pretty well. Even if your ears become extremely
unmatched, the brain appears to recreate the actual spectrum by comparing left
& right & doing some extrapolation.

Scott Fraser

In article writes:

Heck,when the Space Shuttle flies over at 2 am, it is not very loud
considering it is at 30 miles, but the bass tone of the sonic boom
sure sounds kewl.
Maybe I can sample it next time it flies over, and create an impulse
response for wicked bass tracks.

Bob Katz got a press pass to get close in (relatively speaking) and
recorded a launch at Cape Canaveral a couple of years back. He used a
Masterlink powered by a UPS. I don't recall what mics and preamps he
used. He said it was LOUD!



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )

Ricky W. Hunt wrote:



sweep then my right ear 's back in action. So the hair cell isn't dead, i
suppose..just less sensitive.


Three names: Brian Wilson, Stevie Wonder, Beethoven.

And Pete Townsend, and Sting, and...

Jay wrote:

The whole shebang costs about USD 150 - less than the piece of gear you
bought. How much is your hearing worth?


And let me add that they last really long. I got new ones after five
years, only because I figured that the shape of your ear changes a bit
over time. So that's 8 cents a day. For this, I get better sound at
concerts (because you don't have to cringe), I don't mind being next to
the crash cymbal anymore (the designated spot for a keyboard player in a
small rehearsal room), after a night out dancing my ears don't hum. I
wear them in the car too, especially when driving with the window open.
They are great on planes - not only do they reduce the noise, but also
the effects of pressure changes.

They take some getting used to at first. You may feel disoriented. The
trick is to put them in *before* you get exposed to offending sound, or
your ears will already have compensated for it.


Chris

In article ,
says...
My cat can hear a can opener several states away.

Funny - mine can't hear me call his name from three feet, especially if
he's on the counter. Maybe he's wearing my Etymotics.

--
Jay Levitt |
Wellesley, MA | Hi!
Faster: jay at jay dot eff-em | Where are we going?
http://www.jay.fm | Why am I in this handbasket?

Jay Levitt wrote:
In article ,
says...
My cat can hear a can opener several states away.

Funny - mine can't hear me call his name from three feet, especially if
he's on the counter. Maybe he's wearing my Etymotics.

It's because of the way cat brains are wired. Just like the way frogs
can't see objects that aren't either moving like prey or like threats,
the same is true of the cat hearing.

In the wild, the cat food can is the natural prey of the housecat. Likewise,
the wild vacuum cleaner is the primary predator.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 12 Aug 2003 16:46:40 -0400, (Mike Rivers)
wrote:


In article writes:

Heck,when the Space Shuttle flies over at 2 am, it is not very loud
considering it is at 30 miles, but the bass tone of the sonic boom
sure sounds kewl.
Maybe I can sample it next time it flies over, and create an impulse
response for wicked bass tracks.

Bob Katz got a press pass to get close in (relatively speaking) and
recorded a launch at Cape Canaveral a couple of years back. He used a
Masterlink powered by a UPS. I don't recall what mics and preamps he
used. He said it was LOUD!

I viewed 1 shuttle launch many years ago,and it was so loud the voices
I hear in my head on occasion were drowned out.

I wonder how many decibals it puts out at close range.

I hear the speaker at Indianapolis speedway puts out 200 decibals.

I also heard 200 decibals at close range will kill a person.

Makes me feel sorry for the speaker tech at Indy.

Randall

"Ted Spencer" wrote in message
...
Three names: Brian Wilson, Stevie Wonder, Beethoven.

I know Brian is deaf in one ear and IIRC Beethoven went completely deaf,
but
Stevie? I worked with him a bit in the 70's and wasn't aware that he had
any
significant hearing loss. Where does he fit into the list?
Ted Spencer, NYC

I thought he had significant hearing damage too. I just checked and the car
wreck robbed him of his sense of smell. Maybe that's what I was thinking.

I thought he had significant hearing damage too. I just checked and the car
wreck robbed him of his sense of smell. Maybe that's what I was thinking.

Well, if you have a good ear, you can hear if something stinks; so maybe
they're associated, after all.

NeilH

Scott Dorsey wrote:

It's because of the way cat brains are wired. Just like the way frogs
can't see objects that aren't either moving like prey or like threats,
the same is true of the cat hearing.

In the wild, the cat food can is the natural prey of the housecat. Likewise,
the wild vacuum cleaner is the primary predator.

You mean the cat sucking dragon? Amazing how word of those things seems
to have gotten around...

(Scott Dorsey) wrote in message ...
In article , Tommi wrote:

The thing I'm a bit worried about is that my ears are far away from a
"symmetrical frequency response" in other words my right ear is more attuned
to the speech area, whereas the left one is better at hearing the stuff over
16 kHz. For example when I'm pondering whether to pan a cymbal track far
left or far right, it sounds a bit different on both sides(especially with
haedphones of course). Obviously, no one has a perfectly symmetrical ear
response but I don't have anything to relate to, so I don't know how
different my ears actually are. Anyway, is this something I should be
considering as an obstacle for my beginning engineering career, do engineers
usually have to have an especially symmetrical ear response, or is this
perfectly normal?

This is usually caused by environmental factors, most notably driving
with the window down a lot.

When I roll the front windows down in the 4Runner, I feel a pressure
in my ears until I roll down the rear windows too. Is this just a
perceived relief, or is rolling down the back windows helping my
eardrums. And what about that pressure I always feel when driving my
'69 Bug (that I've driven since '75, when I was 16)?
I've noticed a difference between my ears (alright, let's hear the
jokes) for a long time now, but have been afraid to take a test
(besides, what would it accomplish?).

Why was it that at every concert in my youth (From Airplane, Doors,
Dead, Iron Butterfly, Blue Cheer, in '68, to Deep Purple in '74) I was
always front row center and loved how loud it was (and I remember
wondering why my dad always plugged his ears), but now I don't like it
very loud? I can't tell if it's because it actually hurts more now, or
that I'm just more conscientious, responsible, and careful about my
hearing.
At any rate, my kids wear earplugs when they come see me play or go to
any live shows (I've got to remember to bring plugs to some of these
****ing movies too!).





I have a minor example of it, and it has definitely affected the way I
perceive imaging a bit, but it hasn't done too much harm.

Wear earplugs when driving with the windows down to prevent it from
getting worse.
--scott

"Bryson" wrote in message
om...

When I roll the front windows down in the 4Runner, I feel a pressure
in my ears until I roll down the rear windows too. Is this just a
perceived relief, or is rolling down the back windows helping my
eardrums.

That's a common problem with SUVs. The large volume of space in the rear
tends to give you a buffeting effect when you roll down just the front
window. Some now have rear side glass that will pivot open remotely from a
switch at the front, allowing the air to exit and eliminating the problem.
I doubt that this is having any effect on your ears but it can be
uncomfortable.

Bill Balmer

Abyssmal wrote:

I viewed 1 shuttle launch many years ago,and it was so loud the voices
I hear in my head on occasion were drowned out.

I wonder how many decibals it puts out at close range.

Not as much as the Saturn V by a long shot, apparently. Only around 150 dB
at close range. Saturn V made almost 160 dB.

I hear the speaker at Indianapolis speedway puts out 200 decibals.

I also heard 200 decibals at close range will kill a person.

Is this possible? I thought compressibility of air prevented it from being
possible to create sounds that loud.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message

Abyssmal wrote:

I viewed 1 shuttle launch many years ago,and it was so loud the
voices I hear in my head on occasion were drowned out.

I wonder how many decibals it puts out at close range.

Not as much as the Saturn V by a long shot, apparently. Only around
150 dB at close range. Saturn V made almost 160 dB.

Probably louder than that if you got close enough.

http://www.cmr.gov/srs/srs2000/papers7/07-09.pdf

"Near-range infrasound observations of static firings of individual Saturn-V
"F1" engines (1,500 Klbs
thrust) are consistent with an equivalent far-field source of 75,000
microbars at 1m peaked near 8 Hz
during continuous runs (171 DB). During startup and shutdown, the source was
more broadband and
showed peaks at 4 and 16 Hz."

http://www.marineconnection.org/late...ne_low_frequen
cy_sonar.htm

"The amount of noise at 230 db (decibels) is also equivalent to standing 20
feet away from a Saturn rocket at take off."

http://www.ssc.nasa.gov/environmenta...0Kea%20DOC.pdf

" A level of 129 decibels (dB) or 120 adjusted sound pressure scale decibels
(dBA) at a distance of 925 feet from the motor nozzle exit is expected. The
test duration will be less than 30 seconds. Hearing protection will be
required for personnel in the area of the E-1 Test Stand during testing."


I hear the speaker at Indianapolis speedway puts out 200 decibals.

I also heard 200 decibals at close range will kill a person.

Probably. Some place around 140 dB people can be injured by loud sounds,
even with very effective ear protection. This is an issue on aircraft
carriers.

Is this possible? I thought compressibility of air prevented it from
being possible to create sounds that loud.

Umm, that limit would be for undistorted sounds. Negative-going pressures
are limited to a perfect vacuum someplace around 180 dB, but positive-going
pressures can go up much higher. Therefore, if you're willing to accept some
distortion...

Jay - atldigi wrote:


As others have mentioned, the brain will compensate quite well until the
difference becomes quite great. In normal situations, a minor difference
between ears won't impact your work.

This could also apply to the analog versus digital debate. It could be
that the deficiencies always brought up about analog could be more
easily compensated for by the brain then some of the related digital
problems.

-Rob