[mike]

I guess unless someone is willing to spend the money to try one of the
"more" expensive higher end products out there, one really can not
judge if over time a low cost product can perform at the level of the
"more" expensive product. Be it real or imagined.

Based on the above observation I decided to try expensive mains/power cords.

My amps are 9 feet away from my power conditioner so 6 foot stock IEC
power cords are too short. Using an extension cord always induced hum
into the speaker system and I would have to snake the cords around the
speakers and away from other power sources to cut back hum. It was
always there however. So I purchased generic 25 foot IEC shielded
power cords from my local Pro MusicAudio supply and cut them down to
10 feet . I terminated them with good quality 110 volt 15 amp straight
blade connectors. This only worsened the problem. More hum in the
speakers and even harder to snake to find the least hum producing path.
I ended up lifting the ground too remove the 60hz hum. Works great but
sure is unsafe with ungrounded tube amps.

I decided to try the expensive route. I purchased from Parts Express two
WattGate 320I IEC connectors, two Marinco Hospital Grade Plugs and
20 feet of Belden 12 gauge Teflon coated,etc,100% beldfoil and 85%
tinned copper braid shield..(very expensive wire). I also picked up some
1 1/2" and 1" shrink tube to give the finished product that store
bought look. So I spent $220.00 on power cord stuff.

I spent an hour un-braiding and soldering shield and assembling my
expensive power cords. I followed all the DIY suggestions with only
terminating the shield on the plugs ground and floating it at the IEC
side. I did NOT add Ferrite Cores to the lines as some suggested to be
done. I may still as an experiment.

I hooked them up, snaked them around like the other cords and flipped on
the amps. 1 minute after warm up the amps kicked in. DEAD SILENCE. With
my ear up against the tweeter I could hear a slight hiss. So now it was
time to make sure I was just not routing them differently and removed
them and reinstalled the 10 foot generic set. HUM from 6 feet away could
be heard. Disconnected these and hooked up the new cords. Again dead
silence at 2 inches from the speakers.

So you tell me. Am I imagining that these $220 cords are better than
than the $25.00 generic power cords? I don't think so.

We all know technology has caught up with everything electronic. Yes,
$100.00 CD players sound similar to $1000.00 players. But for how long.
I know how music should sound. I played in orchestra's for 14 years. I
have spent years at a friends recording studio listening to live music.
I was in tears one day when a studio clarinetist played so magically.
I had never heard that instrument played that smoothly before. So the
question is, how do they sound if you sit there for 3 hours listening to
them. Can any one really say them have sat and listened to music for
hours on a low end system and found it really engaging and life-like
after 3 hours?
I have tried. And after a while it begins to grate on you.One begins to
notice instruments sounding off. Voices just not real. Loud passages
a little muddy.
I have had many non-audiophles stop and listen to my system and just say
wow. It sounds so real.

Isn't that the purpose of "HI END AUDIO"? To try and reproduce music
that sounds real not recorded? It will never be real and we know it,
but at least we try.
Thank you
Mike Mueller

[Adam Sampson]

mike writes:

So I purchased generic 25 foot IEC shielded power cords from my
local Pro MusicAudio supply
[...]
20 feet of Belden 12 gauge Teflon coated,etc,100% beldfoil and 85%
tinned copper braid shield..(very expensive wire).

Sounds like the shielding's making a significant difference -- if you
cut open a bit of the cheap cable, what does it look like in
comparison to the expensive stuff? (I don't think I've ever seen
generic mains cable with anything but a single earth wire here in the
UK, but there are loads of different shielding approaches used for
coax cable, and I'd be interested to know what strategy your cables
use!)

--
Adam Sampson http://offog.org/

[Peter Wieck]

mike wrote:

So you tell me. Am I imagining that these $220 cords are better than
than the $25.00 generic power cords? I don't think so.

Mike:

You are not hardly imagining anything. However, I am guessing that you
are falling into the fallacy of leaping to conclusions.

Here is what I think is going on: Somewhere you have a component that
is very prone to picking up induced AC hum. Using well-shielded
power-cords, you have eliminated the primary source of that AC, thereby
solving the problem.

But what you have done is the functional equivalent of draining the
pond so the boat does not sink, not fixing the hole in the boat. If
there is some component within the amp that has failed or is failing as
the first-cause, your solution may be temporary. As long as it works
however don't fight it, just be prepared for something else.

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA

[MC]

"mike" wrote in message
...

I decided to try the expensive route. I purchased from Parts Express two
WattGate 320I IEC connectors, two Marinco Hospital Grade Plugs and 20 feet
of Belden 12 gauge Teflon coated,etc,100% beldfoil and 85% tinned copper
braid shield..(very expensive wire). I also picked up some 1 1/2" and 1"
shrink tube to give the finished product that store bought look. So I
spent $220.00 on power cord stuff.
....
I hooked them up, snaked them around like the other cords and flipped on
the amps. 1 minute after warm up the amps kicked in. DEAD SILENCE. With
my ear up against the tweeter I could hear a slight hiss. So now it was
time to make sure I was just not routing them differently and removed
them and reinstalled the 10 foot generic set. HUM from 6 feet away could
be heard. Disconnected these and hooked up the new cords. Again dead
silence at 2 inches from the speakers.

So you tell me. Am I imagining that these $220 cords are better than than
the $25.00 generic power cords? I don't think so.

Now the question is, of course, *why*. I would have liked to be there with
an oscilloscope to trace your hum to its source and figure out exactly why
there was such a difference.

My thoughts immediately turn to grounding (not shielding) and to the outlet.
Also to other appliances in the house that may have been putting noise on
the line at one time and not at another. Also to the power conditioner...

In short: You've observed something real. Let's figure out what caused it.

[MC]

"Adam Sampson" wrote in message
...
mike writes:

So I purchased generic 25 foot IEC shielded power cords from my
local Pro MusicAudio supply
[...]
20 feet of Belden 12 gauge Teflon coated,etc,100% beldfoil and 85%
tinned copper braid shield..(very expensive wire).

Sounds like the shielding's making a significant difference -- if you
cut open a bit of the cheap cable, what does it look like in
comparison to the expensive stuff? (I don't think I've ever seen
generic mains cable with anything but a single earth wire here in the
UK, but there are loads of different shielding approaches used for
coax cable, and I'd be interested to know what strategy your cables
use!)

The other question is why shielding the power cord made such a difference,
given that the wires in the wall are not shielded. I wonder if there is a
very localized source of noise. I also wonder if something is wrong with
the power supply of the amplifier; normally, power line noise should simply
not get into the amplifier.

[mike]

60hz ground hum is a nuisence that is tough to figure out. In a home
wiring system, it could come from something in another room at the far
end of ones house. Who knows.
Studios deal with it by lifting grounds or by isolating each piece of
equipment on their own dedicated line from power box to equipment with
it's own ground. And yes one must plug each piece in one at a time until
one finds the offending piece.

My situation is not a problem with the amps per say but from
interference that longer run of cable was picking up.

The whole point of what I had to say was in response from posters
constantly putting down those of us who believe High End Audio is more
than just a cheap $100.00 piece of equipment.

Seven years ago I could not afford the more expensive gear out there.
So I bought Dynaco's and fisher's and eico's to rebuild and upgrade like
everyone likes to do. Did it actually save me money? Not really. New
caps, new resistors, new this ,new that. After a while I was spending
more money and time on upgrades on old equipment than what I could have
bought newer stuff for.

Since this group is called High End, why constantly put down high end
equipment. For those who prefer older equipment from the 60's and 50's
great. For those who believe a $100.00 CD player is as good as a
$1000.00 player great. Don't buy the more expensive pieces. Talk about
those cheaper pieces. But why constantly discourage people asking
advice on newer more expensive pieces. Believe it or not there is a
section of the market that can hear(real or imagined) the difference
without having so called golden ears. I've been a cabinetmaker for 34
years and I know my hearing is from 20 to 12.5k. I'm no golden ear. But
I can still hear differences in how equipment sounds. How speakers are
placed in rooms and how diffent drivers sound. And that goes for amps,
pre-amps, record palyers and CD players.

Interestingly, over that past year I have posted on information about
good higer end products that I have found that fit the more budget
concious people out there. Not once has any one acknowleged that.
Enough of a rant. I'm done
Thank you
Mike Mueller

[bob]

mike wrote:

Since this group is called High End, why constantly put down high end
equipment.

First he tells us about a couple of tube amps that may be susceptible
to AC hum, and then he asks why others "constantly put down high end
equipment." Can we connect the dots?

Seriously, there's been very little "putting down" of high end gear
around here lately. Rather, some posters have been trying to help
people budget their (always limited) funds wisely, and steering them
away from the antiquated notion that you must spend large amounts of
money on every link of the audio chain in order to achieve great sound
reproduction.

bob

[Peter Wieck]

mike wrote:
After a while I was spending more money and time on upgrades on old equipment than what I could have bought newer stuff for.

Since this group is called High End, why constantly put down high end
equipment.

Mike:

With due respect. No one here "puts down" anything that gives actual
value-for-effort. However, there is a segment amongst us to which I
subscribe that is suspicious of sizzle without steak, so to speak. From
here, however, I am writing for myself.

So, Keep a couple-three,four, five things in mind:

a) "New" does not equal "better".
b) "Expensive" does not equal "effective".
c) "Inexpensive" does not equal "cheap".
d) "Expensive" does not equal "good".
e) "Inexpensive" does not equal "bad".

Most anyone here using anything from Acrosound to Krell and behind or
beyond would define "High End" as that which best reproduces sound to
the peculiar (in the sense of specific) taste of the chooser of the
equipment. Sometimes, those with the resources, make choices that
require large amounts of time and/or treasure. Others make other
choices. And most of us are responsible for them either way with
neither apologies nor boasting.

If $220 removed the hum problems with your system, and you are happy,
it was cheap at the price. Again, writing for myself, I would have
investigated shielding, hum-loops, extraneous sources and simple
solutions up to and including ferrite blocks before I jumped to
expensive cables... I am pretty sure you actually did that and turned
to the exotics only after all else failed. But if you did not, the
analogy of draining the pond remains apt.

I am also concerned over your description of costly upgrades for
vintage stuff. Assuming the raw cost of a complete/factory/operational
Dynaco ST-70 as your base-price, even a complete replacement of the
driver board, recapping and so-forth would not set you even $100 more.
As to the PAS (or any of several other tube pre-amps), perhaps $20
worth of parts on a bad day will take you to the limits of improvement
possible. Sure, a Scott LK-150 might cost you a wee bit more (mine at
$80 worth including high-grade caps and two NOS Sylvania 5AR4s) but it
ain't that bad as compared to even a moderately well made Chinese amp
these days, much less something by even Audio Research at the low end
of "High End".

Also, I would be the very first to admit that much of my taste in
equipment could be described as irrational if observed from outside. I
keep three linear turntables. When I got my first one 28 years ago, I
never looked back. For whatever reason, my ears are "tuned" to vintage
AR speakers (and also very much like their vintage electronics - after
the required tweeks). Much as I enjoy other speakers (and keep several
pair), I keep returning to the 3as or the M6s or the Athenas (even the
4xs in a small room)... I keep a brute-force power amp. And a couple
of flea-powered units as well. I keep no less than four (4) tube amps,
and four (4) SS amps. I am about to build my own tube power-amp...
wherein I will likely spend more on the sheet-metal and aesthetics than
on the rest of it, given my stock of tubes, parts and such-like. I
listen to music every day, more-or-less split between four systems. But
none of them are in a chapel, and none of them are enthroned. And, in
all good humor, none of my systems are permitted to hum, buzz, or
crackle.

Enjoy. This is a hobby that I believe was created for that singular
purpose.

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA

[MC]

"mike" wrote in message
...

My situation is not a problem with the amps per say but from interference
that longer run of cable was picking up.

The whole point of what I had to say was in response from posters
constantly putting down those of us who believe High End Audio is more
than just a cheap $100.00 piece of equipment.

Good point. Even if the source of your problem was never identified, your
point is that the high-end cables gave protection from it, and cheaper
cables did not. It might be more cost-effective in your situation to buy
the more expensive cables than to do the engineering work to find a cheaper
solution.

[mike]

Peter Wieck wrote:
mike wrote:

After a while I was spending more money and time on upgrades on old equipment than what I could have bought newer stuff for.

Since this group is called High End, why constantly put down high end
equipment.


Mike:

With due respect. No one here "puts down" anything that gives actual
value-for-effort. However, there is a segment amongst us to which I
subscribe that is suspicious of sizzle without steak, so to speak. From
here, however, I am writing for myself.

So, Keep a couple-three,four, five things in mind:

a) "New" does not equal "better".
b) "Expensive" does not equal "effective".
c) "Inexpensive" does not equal "cheap".
d) "Expensive" does not equal "good".
e) "Inexpensive" does not equal "bad".

Most anyone here using anything from Acrosound to Krell and behind or
beyond would define "High End" as that which best reproduces sound to
the peculiar (in the sense of specific) taste of the chooser of the
equipment. Sometimes, those with the resources, make choices that
require large amounts of time and/or treasure. Others make other
choices. And most of us are responsible for them either way with
neither apologies nor boasting.

If $220 removed the hum problems with your system, and you are happy,
it was cheap at the price. Again, writing for myself, I would have
investigated shielding, hum-loops, extraneous sources and simple
solutions up to and including ferrite blocks before I jumped to
expensive cables... I am pretty sure you actually did that and turned
to the exotics only after all else failed. But if you did not, the
analogy of draining the pond remains apt.

I am also concerned over your description of costly upgrades for
vintage stuff. Assuming the raw cost of a complete/factory/operational
Dynaco ST-70 as your base-price, even a complete replacement of the
driver board, recapping and so-forth would not set you even $100 more.
As to the PAS (or any of several other tube pre-amps), perhaps $20
worth of parts on a bad day will take you to the limits of improvement
possible. Sure, a Scott LK-150 might cost you a wee bit more (mine at
$80 worth including high-grade caps and two NOS Sylvania 5AR4s) but it
ain't that bad as compared to even a moderately well made Chinese amp
these days, much less something by even Audio Research at the low end
of "High End".

Also, I would be the very first to admit that much of my taste in
equipment could be described as irrational if observed from outside. I
keep three linear turntables. When I got my first one 28 years ago, I
never looked back. For whatever reason, my ears are "tuned" to vintage
AR speakers (and also very much like their vintage electronics - after
the required tweeks). Much as I enjoy other speakers (and keep several
pair), I keep returning to the 3as or the M6s or the Athenas (even the
4xs in a small room)... I keep a brute-force power amp. And a couple
of flea-powered units as well. I keep no less than four (4) tube amps,
and four (4) SS amps. I am about to build my own tube power-amp...
wherein I will likely spend more on the sheet-metal and aesthetics than
on the rest of it, given my stock of tubes, parts and such-like. I
listen to music every day, more-or-less split between four systems. But
none of them are in a chapel, and none of them are enthroned. And, in
all good humor, none of my systems are permitted to hum, buzz, or
crackle.

Enjoy. This is a hobby that I believe was created for that singular
purpose.

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA
Hey Peter
In rebuilding equipment it really depends on what one replaces things
with. I chose moving on to higher end parts to match quality found in
the newer equipment out there. In the Dynco's I used Hovland Wonder
Caps,Riken Ohm Resistors, new circuit boards with thicker traces, new
quad caps, ceramic tube sockets and a better grade of wire to completely
rebuild everything. I stripped the units down to bare chassis's and had
them re-plated since the finish was so bad on them. I took 4 chassis's
in at once to cut cost, but it still is expensive.

Even after that, one has problems occasionally with transformers
blowing due to age. I was going to completely rebuild a Fisher 400c
pre-amp and a Heathkit sp2 something(dual mono pre-amp on single
chassis) The Heatkit had a few of those molded intergated units(caps &
resistors) and replacing them was tough. I ended up selling them and
with the money I bought an Audio Research SP9.

Same with turntables. I had a Luxman Direct drive, a Philips 312 and one
other. Along with a Music Hall MMF5 , I sold them all and bought a Rega
P3 with the external power supply. The Rega is a huge improvement over
all the vintage units I have heard and the Music Hall.

The hum problem is a combination ground loop and RF interference being
picked up by the longer power cords. I cannot rewire my house right
now, so I have to find solutions. It was worse when I installed a
M-audio Fire Wire Audiophile on my lap top. Under battery power, the
whole system was silent. A soon as I plugged in the AC adapter to the
Laptop the HUm was ridiculous. So I lifted the ground and removed the
hum. The AC adapter from HP has no ferrite block on the line. I spent 7
hours over the course of 4 days with HP/India. They sent me 4
replacement adapters, all with no ferrite block and all inducing hum.

The only thing I would dissagre on with you is the pharse "does not"
I would change that to "does not always" There are exceptions to every
rule.

Mike Mueller

[Stuart Krivis]

On 7 Oct 2006 03:45:37 GMT, mike wrote:

I guess unless someone is willing to spend the money to try one of the
"more" expensive higher end products out there, one really can not
judge if over time a low cost product can perform at the level of the
"more" expensive product. Be it real or imagined.

Based on the above observation I decided to try expensive mains/power cords.

My amps are 9 feet away from my power conditioner so 6 foot stock IEC
power cords are too short. Using an extension cord always induced hum
into the speaker system and I would have to snake the cords around the
speakers and away from other power sources to cut back hum. It was
always there however. So I purchased generic 25 foot IEC shielded
power cords from my local Pro MusicAudio supply and cut them down to
10 feet . I terminated them with good quality 110 volt 15 amp straight
blade connectors. This only worsened the problem. More hum in the
speakers and even harder to snake to find the least hum producing path.
I ended up lifting the ground too remove the 60hz hum. Works great but
sure is unsafe with ungrounded tube amps.

I'd say your system has major problems and you should get it fixed
before proceeding further.

[Stuart Krivis]

On 8 Oct 2006 15:21:03 GMT, "Peter Wieck" wrote:


I am also concerned over your description of costly upgrades for
vintage stuff. Assuming the raw cost of a complete/factory/operational
Dynaco ST-70 as your base-price, even a complete replacement of the
driver board, recapping and so-forth would not set you even $100 more.
As to the PAS (or any of several other tube pre-amps), perhaps $20
worth of parts on a bad day will take you to the limits of improvement
possible. Sure, a Scott LK-150 might cost you a wee bit more (mine at
$80 worth including high-grade caps and two NOS Sylvania 5AR4s) but it
ain't that bad as compared to even a moderately well made Chinese amp
these days, much less something by even Audio Research at the low end
of "High End".

Ah, but I'm sure he stuffed his Dyna equipment full of
"better-sounding parts." In 3 months, the person selling him these
magic parts came up with something even "better-sounding" yet, so he
had to "upgrade."

:-)