Home |
Search |
Today's Posts |
#1
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
How to Mic a Grand Piano
http://vimeo.com/42320857 Poor amateurs like me would replace the Audix mics with their favorite cheap condenser.... |
#2
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
How to Mic a Grand Piano
Paul wrote:
http://vimeo.com/42320857 Poor amateurs like me would replace the Audix mics with their favorite cheap condenser.... Rich ones might use this:- http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...Mic_Piano.html I don't know how good they are, though. -- Tciao for Now! John. |
#3
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
How to Mic a Grand Piano
In article , Paul wrote:
http://vimeo.com/42320857 Poor amateurs like me would replace the Audix mics with their favorite cheap condenser.... This is a rock piano technique.... notice how throughout the first half he's talking about PA applications? This is something you do to eliminate room sound and leakage. Notice in the second half how terrible the room sounds? You can hear the slap echo on the lav mike, even. His advice is good advice, and the technique of using the ambient mikes mixed in with close mikes is a useful one when you're trying to blur the room sound. There's a limit to how much I'm willing to tolerate the fifty-foot-wide piano with my head stuck inside it, though, even for rock where you're looking for that bright hammery sound to make it cut through a mix. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#4
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
How to Mic a Grand Piano
John Williamson wrote:
Paul wrote: http://vimeo.com/42320857 Poor amateurs like me would replace the Audix mics with their favorite cheap condenser.... Rich ones might use this:- http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...Mic_Piano.html I don't know how good they are, though. They're okay, but you can build a similar mount yourself for a lot less money if you're looking for that sort of sound, and put a better quality omni into it. Good clean cheap omnis are a lot easier to find than good clean cheap cardioids. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#5
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
How to Mic a Grand Piano
On 2/7/2013 5:50 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article , Paul wrote: http://vimeo.com/42320857 Poor amateurs like me would replace the Audix mics with their favorite cheap condenser.... This is a rock piano technique.... notice how throughout the first half he's talking about PA applications? This is something you do to eliminate room sound and leakage. Notice in the second half how terrible the room sounds? You can hear the slap echo on the lav mike, even. His advice is good advice, and the technique of using the ambient mikes mixed in with close mikes is a useful one when you're trying to blur the room sound. There's a limit to how much I'm willing to tolerate the fifty-foot-wide piano with my head stuck inside it, though, even for rock where you're looking for that bright hammery sound to make it cut through a mix. --scott Here's another good article: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan0...rding_0108.htm In general, he recommends an omni-directional. What do you think about PZM boundary microphones? I'm sure there's a cheap one out there I can experiment with.... |
#6
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
How to Mic a Grand Piano
On 2/7/2013 11:33 PM, Paul wrote:
On 2/7/2013 5:50 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote: In article , Paul wrote: http://vimeo.com/42320857 Poor amateurs like me would replace the Audix mics with their favorite cheap condenser.... This is a rock piano technique.... notice how throughout the first half he's talking about PA applications? This is something you do to eliminate room sound and leakage. Notice in the second half how terrible the room sounds? You can hear the slap echo on the lav mike, even. His advice is good advice, and the technique of using the ambient mikes mixed in with close mikes is a useful one when you're trying to blur the room sound. There's a limit to how much I'm willing to tolerate the fifty-foot-wide piano with my head stuck inside it, though, even for rock where you're looking for that bright hammery sound to make it cut through a mix. --scott Here's another good article: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan0...rding_0108.htm Great audio samples on this site. So far, I like the InsideCoincidentPair2, and InsideSpaced15cmPair1, the later having beefier bass response, but would need some EQing for my taste. I prefer the more intimate sound of mikes inside the piano. |
#7
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
How to Mic a Grand Piano
In article , Paul wrote:
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan0...rding_0108.htm In general, he recommends an omni-directional. This is a much, much better article than anything else you have mentioned here. This is a good overview of basic methods and some discussion of why they are done. Here is a typical close-miked jazz sort of technique: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRbs4Bq3UX4 Notice again that you can hear very little of the room in the direct feed and the piano is very wide. This is a good thing for some work, way too close for classical. But what you're not hearing is all that hammer slam that were heard in that video you cited where they shoved the mikes up into the piano. What do you think about PZM boundary microphones? I'm sure there's a cheap one out there I can experiment with.... It is a useful device that was designed to deal with slap echo problems from large surfaces. If you have a slap echo issue, and sometimes that can happen in some rooms and some configurations especially if you are trying to get in too close with the short stick in order to avoid bad room sounds, the PZM is a useful salvage tool for getting you out of a bad situation. In the 1970s a lot of people went crazy over the PZM and started putting it on everything, in part because they were decent quality electret microphones for cheap and many engineers had never encountered such a thing before. They got heavily overused for a lot of things they should never have been used for. Then in the eighties and nineties there was something of a backlash against them. But they are a useful special purpose tool that can be useful to have, although far from a general-purpose mike. I am increasingly thinking you might want to try recording in a real studio and get a sense of what is possible. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#8
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
How to Mic a Grand Piano
On 2/8/2013 7:47 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article , Paul wrote: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan0...rding_0108.htm In general, he recommends an omni-directional. This is a much, much better article than anything else you have mentioned here. This is a good overview of basic methods and some discussion of why they are done. Here is a typical close-miked jazz sort of technique: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRbs4Bq3UX4 Notice again that you can hear very little of the room in the direct feed and the piano is very wide. This is a good thing for some work, way too close for classical. But what you're not hearing is all that hammer slam that were heard in that video you cited where they shoved the mikes up into the piano. Well, I'm not quite sure I'm shooting for an ambient, in-the-audience, "classical" sound then. In the audio samples of that article, I liked the InsideCoincidentPair2, and InsideSpaced15cmPair1, the later having beefier bass response, but would need some EQing for my taste. So I obviously prefer the more intimate sound of mikes inside the piano. What do you think about PZM boundary microphones? I'm sure there's a cheap one out there I can experiment with.... It is a useful device that was designed to deal with slap echo problems from large surfaces. If you have a slap echo issue, and sometimes that can happen in some rooms and some configurations especially if you are trying to get in too close with the short stick in order to avoid bad room sounds, the PZM is a useful salvage tool for getting you out of a bad situation. In the 1970s a lot of people went crazy over the PZM and started putting it on everything, in part because they were decent quality electret microphones for cheap and many engineers had never encountered such a thing before. They got heavily overused for a lot of things they should never have been used for. Then in the eighties and nineties there was something of a backlash against them. But they are a useful special purpose tool that can be useful to have, although far from a general-purpose mike. I am increasingly thinking you might want to try recording in a real studio and get a sense of what is possible. --scott As I've said before, I may just do that....but probably not before I've tried it again (there was plenty of piano on my first CD), just to see how much of a difference it will make. Plus, I really enjoy the recording process....why leave all the fun to you guys?! |
#9
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
How to Mic a Grand Piano
Paul wrote:
On 2/7/2013 11:33 PM, Paul wrote: On 2/7/2013 5:50 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote: In article , Paul wrote: http://vimeo.com/42320857 Poor amateurs like me would replace the Audix mics with their favorite cheap condenser.... This is a rock piano technique.... notice how throughout the first half he's talking about PA applications? This is something you do to eliminate room sound and leakage. Notice in the second half how terrible the room sounds? You can hear the slap echo on the lav mike, even. His advice is good advice, and the technique of using the ambient mikes mixed in with close mikes is a useful one when you're trying to blur the room sound. There's a limit to how much I'm willing to tolerate the fifty-foot-wide piano with my head stuck inside it, though, even for rock where you're looking for that bright hammery sound to make it cut through a mix. --scott Here's another good article: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan0...rding_0108.htm Great audio samples on this site. So far, I like the InsideCoincidentPair2, and InsideSpaced15cmPair1, the later having beefier bass response, but would need some EQing for my taste. I prefer the more intimate sound of mikes inside the piano. Which is a completely fake sound compared to having one's head outside of the piano. That's all pop and rockery, a sound devised to solve a problem in context. -- shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/ http://hankandshaidrimusic.com/ http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic |
#10
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
How to Mic a Grand Piano
On 2/8/2013 9:50 AM, hank alrich wrote:
Paul wrote: On 2/7/2013 11:33 PM, Paul wrote: On 2/7/2013 5:50 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote: In article , Paul wrote: http://vimeo.com/42320857 Poor amateurs like me would replace the Audix mics with their favorite cheap condenser.... This is a rock piano technique.... notice how throughout the first half he's talking about PA applications? This is something you do to eliminate room sound and leakage. Notice in the second half how terrible the room sounds? You can hear the slap echo on the lav mike, even. His advice is good advice, and the technique of using the ambient mikes mixed in with close mikes is a useful one when you're trying to blur the room sound. There's a limit to how much I'm willing to tolerate the fifty-foot-wide piano with my head stuck inside it, though, even for rock where you're looking for that bright hammery sound to make it cut through a mix. --scott Here's another good article: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan0...rding_0108.htm Great audio samples on this site. So far, I like the InsideCoincidentPair2, and InsideSpaced15cmPair1, the later having beefier bass response, but would need some EQing for my taste. I prefer the more intimate sound of mikes inside the piano. Which is a completely fake sound compared to having one's head outside of the piano. That's all pop and rockery, a sound devised to solve a problem in context. The piano player's head is not too far from the insides, and since I'm a piano player, that could be why I prefer that sound. |
#11
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
How to Mic a Grand Piano
Paul wrote:
On 2/8/2013 7:47 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote: BIG SNIP I am increasingly thinking you might want to try recording in a real studio and get a sense of what is possible. --scott As I've said before, I may just do that....but probably not before I've tried it again (there was plenty of piano on my first CD), just to see how much of a difference it will make. Plus, I really enjoy the recording process....why leave all the fun to you guys?! There is merit in learning by doing, making mistakes, trying something else, making mistakes, etc. until you accumulate enought experience to quickly get what you want in the room you have to work with and the music and musicians you are recording. However, you don't know how much fun you might have booking some time and arranging with the engineer ahead of time that you want to learn from him, try a few different techniques, hear his suggestions, listen to his experiences. The cost? Cheap, cheap, cheap for what you might get out of it. Here's another idea. When I was in the commercial studio business, we had engineers from out of town drop by and offer to help with sessions, setting up the studio, putting everything away after, making coffee, just to see what we were doing and how. If they seemed like good people we accomodated. We had no secrets; after all, thirty or forty session players were in and out of the studio every week and our mic selections and placement among other things went out the door with them. Steve King |
#12
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
How to Mic a Grand Piano
On Thursday, February 7, 2013 10:48:05 AM UTC-5, John Williamson wrote:
Rich ones might use this:- http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...Mic_Piano.html I don't know how good they are, though. a good way to do this flavor of miking for as good or better result and much less cash is a pair of DPA 4061 omnis on the magnet mounts. |
#13
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
How to Mic a Grand Piano
On 2/8/2013 10:30 AM, Steve King wrote:
Paul wrote: On 2/8/2013 7:47 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote: BIG SNIP I am increasingly thinking you might want to try recording in a real studio and get a sense of what is possible. --scott As I've said before, I may just do that....but probably not before I've tried it again (there was plenty of piano on my first CD), just to see how much of a difference it will make. Plus, I really enjoy the recording process....why leave all the fun to you guys?! There is merit in learning by doing, making mistakes, trying something else, making mistakes, etc. until you accumulate enought experience to quickly get what you want in the room you have to work with and the music and musicians you are recording. However, you don't know how much fun you might have booking some time and arranging with the engineer ahead of time that you want to learn from him, try a few different techniques, hear his suggestions, listen to his experiences. The cost? Cheap, cheap, cheap for what you might get out of it. Here's another idea. When I was in the commercial studio business, we had engineers from out of town drop by and offer to help with sessions, setting up the studio, putting everything away after, making coffee, just to see what we were doing and how. If they seemed like good people we accomodated. We had no secrets; after all, thirty or forty session players were in and out of the studio every week and our mic selections and placement among other things went out the door with them. That sounds like a great idea actually. I could offer to help in a local studio in exchange for seeing their methods. If I'm really lucky, they'll press the record button after a paying customer is gone, and let me bang out a couple of quick sample tunes, just so I can hear what their stuff sounds like.... Jesus, I'm such a cheapie!! It must be in my DNA....... :/ |
#14
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
How to Mic a Grand Piano
Paul wrote:
On 2/8/2013 9:50 AM, hank alrich wrote: Paul wrote: On 2/7/2013 11:33 PM, Paul wrote: On 2/7/2013 5:50 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote: In article , Paul wrote: http://vimeo.com/42320857 Poor amateurs like me would replace the Audix mics with their favorite cheap condenser.... This is a rock piano technique.... notice how throughout the first half he's talking about PA applications? This is something you do to eliminate room sound and leakage. Notice in the second half how terrible the room sounds? You can hear the slap echo on the lav mike, even. His advice is good advice, and the technique of using the ambient mikes mixed in with close mikes is a useful one when you're trying to blur the room sound. There's a limit to how much I'm willing to tolerate the fifty-foot-wide piano with my head stuck inside it, though, even for rock where you're looking for that bright hammery sound to make it cut through a mix. --scott Here's another good article: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan0...rding_0108.htm Great audio samples on this site. So far, I like the InsideCoincidentPair2, and InsideSpaced15cmPair1, the later having beefier bass response, but would need some EQing for my taste. I prefer the more intimate sound of mikes inside the piano. Which is a completely fake sound compared to having one's head outside of the piano. That's all pop and rockery, a sound devised to solve a problem in context. The piano player's head is not too far from the insides, and since I'm a piano player, that could be why I prefer that sound. Stick your head where those mics are placed and have someone else play the piano. It sounds very little like it sounds from the piano bench. (1921 Chickering grand here.) -- shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/ http://hankandshaidrimusic.com/ http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic |
#15
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
How to Mic a Grand Piano
In article , Paul wrote:
So far, I like the InsideCoincidentPair2, and InsideSpaced15cmPair1, the later having beefier bass response, but would need some EQing for my taste. I prefer the more intimate sound of mikes inside the piano. Maybe, but that's not what a piano actually sounds like. When you go to concert, they don't take you up on stage and put your head inside the piano and close it, do they? It's a popular sound for a lot of rock stuff where the piano needs to cut through a lot of electric guitars, but it's certainly not natural. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#16
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
How to Mic a Grand Piano
hank alrich wrote:
Stick your head where those mics are placed and have someone else play the piano. It sounds very little like it sounds from the piano bench. But... if you like how it sounds from the piano bench, put a Jecklin disc up there above your head or a little behind it. You can then adjust the tonality a lot by raising and lowering the lid a little bit. It's very, very easy to get exaggerated separation there if you're not careful, though. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#17
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
How to Mic a Grand Piano
On 2/8/2013 11:08 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article , Paul wrote: So far, I like the InsideCoincidentPair2, and InsideSpaced15cmPair1, the later having beefier bass response, but would need some EQing for my taste. I prefer the more intimate sound of mikes inside the piano. Maybe, but that's not what a piano actually sounds like. When you go to concert, they don't take you up on stage and put your head inside the piano and close it, do they? It's a popular sound for a lot of rock stuff where the piano needs to cut through a lot of electric guitars, but it's certainly not natural. --scott People also don't stick there ears right up to the cones of a guitar cab to listen to it (they'd go deaf real fast), but that's where most people mike them. It still sounds like a piano to me. People also mix in Fishman blender signals on acoustic guitar, both the electric pickup, and the microphone inside the guitar. It's not a natural sound by itself, but it can compliment the far-field mics. Seems many people use both mikes inside the piano, and mics further away, and blend them...... |
#18
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
How to Mic a Grand Piano
In article , Paul wrote:
People also don't stick there ears right up to the cones of a guitar cab to listen to it (they'd go deaf real fast), but that's where most people mike them. Sometimes. And sometimes they mike them from the back and sometimes they mike them from a distance. In most cases where they mike them up close they're trying to make them sound like a big PA system, which is where a lot of the whole rock sound comes from. But that is very much a rock thing. Listen to a lot of classic punk albums and you'll hear a lot of the guitar is actually leakage into all the other mikes. The leakage is where that sound comes from, not the guitar mikes. It still sounds like a piano to me. People also mix in Fishman blender signals on acoustic guitar, both the electric pickup, and the microphone inside the guitar. It's not a natural sound by itself, but it can compliment the far-field mics. That's also very much a rock thing. If you want to do the rock thing, that's great, but that's a different thing. That's not reproducing a sound at all but producing a new and different one. Seems many people use both mikes inside the piano, and mics further away, and blend them...... As I said earlier, this mostly started as an attempt to blur room reflections and deal with room problems. It also gives you the ability to change the piano sound at mixdown. It's not very natural, but that's okay because it's not supposed to be. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#19
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
How to Mic a Grand Piano
Scott Dorsey wrote:
hank alrich wrote: Stick your head where those mics are placed and have someone else play the piano. It sounds very little like it sounds from the piano bench. But... if you like how it sounds from the piano bench, put a Jecklin disc up there above your head or a little behind it. You can then adjust the tonality a lot by raising and lowering the lid a little bit. It's very, very easy to get exaggerated separation there if you're not careful, though. --scott In some ways this thread already exhibits exaggerated separation. No disc needed. -- shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/ http://hankandshaidrimusic.com/ http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic |
#20
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
How to Mic a Grand Piano
On 2/8/2013 3:36 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article , Paul wrote: People also don't stick there ears right up to the cones of a guitar cab to listen to it (they'd go deaf real fast), but that's where most people mike them. Sometimes. And sometimes they mike them from the back and sometimes they mike them from a distance. In most cases where they mike them up close they're trying to make them sound like a big PA system, which is where a lot of the whole rock sound comes from. But that is very much a rock thing. Listen to a lot of classic punk albums and you'll hear a lot of the guitar is actually leakage into all the other mikes. The leakage is where that sound comes from, not the guitar mikes. We also don't listen to singers with our ears right up to their lips, but that's the way many of them sing into a microphone live, and it still sounds similar enough to their un-amplified voices (assuming reasonably flat frequency response of the PA). Ditto for close-miked drums. You certainly don't listen to them live with your ear a few inches from the drum heads. Just using ambient overheads gives you the overall kit sound, but it can be a weak signal-to-noise ratio if used by itself. It still sounds like a piano to me. People also mix in Fishman blender signals on acoustic guitar, both the electric pickup, and the microphone inside the guitar. It's not a natural sound by itself, but it can compliment the far-field mics. That's also very much a rock thing. If you want to do the rock thing, that's great, but that's a different thing. That's not reproducing a sound at all but producing a new and different one. Seems many people use both mikes inside the piano, and mics further away, and blend them...... As I said earlier, this mostly started as an attempt to blur room reflections and deal with room problems. It also gives you the ability to change the piano sound at mixdown. It's not very natural, but that's okay because it's not supposed to be. --scott One could argue any electronically recorded or amplified sound is "unnatural", which is what some opera purists do. I saw Lang Lang play at a local music hall that seats 2,300. Up in the balcony seats, way in the back, you could barely hear him sometimes, even when he was playing solo. It was just too big of a venue for a piano to fill, and some amplification would have been great. |
#21
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
How to Mic a Grand Piano
hank alrich wrote:
Paul wrote: On 2/8/2013 9:50 AM, hank alrich wrote: Paul wrote: On 2/7/2013 11:33 PM, Paul wrote: On 2/7/2013 5:50 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote: In article , Paul wrote: http://vimeo.com/42320857 Poor amateurs like me would replace the Audix mics with their favorite cheap condenser.... This is a rock piano technique.... notice how throughout the first half he's talking about PA applications? This is something you do to eliminate room sound and leakage. Notice in the second half how terrible the room sounds? You can hear the slap echo on the lav mike, even. His advice is good advice, and the technique of using the ambient mikes mixed in with close mikes is a useful one when you're trying to blur the room sound. There's a limit to how much I'm willing to tolerate the fifty-foot-wide piano with my head stuck inside it, though, even for rock where you're looking for that bright hammery sound to make it cut through a mix. --scott Here's another good article: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan0...rding_0108.htm Great audio samples on this site. So far, I like the InsideCoincidentPair2, and InsideSpaced15cmPair1, the later having beefier bass response, but would need some EQing for my taste. I prefer the more intimate sound of mikes inside the piano. Which is a completely fake sound compared to having one's head outside of the piano. That's all pop and rockery, a sound devised to solve a problem in context. The piano player's head is not too far from the insides, and since I'm a piano player, that could be why I prefer that sound. Stick your head where those mics are placed and have someone else play the piano. It sounds very little like it sounds from the piano bench. (1921 Chickering grand here.) My first recording studio job was helping Malcolm Chisholm build a studio on the north side of Chicago. We were well along with the build, when he announced that it was time to buy a piano, and an old friend was going to help. The old friend turned out to be Oscar Peterson, who was playing a week at a club called The London House. Malcolm had recorded a couple of albums with Peterson at United Recorders in LA. We went to several piano stores, where Oscar played and we listened. Oscar said he really liked a Chickering, thought it would record really well. I think both Malcolm and I were concerned that a Steinway might be a bigger draw for a new studio, but we went with Mr. Peterson's advice. It was a great, great piano. Not only did it sound really good, but it also stayed in tune much longer than we expected under the hard use of a lot of R & B sessions, where it got banged around pretty hard. Don't have any idea of the year, but it looked old when we bought it in 1965. Steve King |
#22
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
How to Mic a Grand Piano
"Paul" wrote in message ... On 2/8/2013 3:36 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote: I saw Lang Lang play at a local music hall that seats 2,300. Up in the balcony seats, way in the back, you could barely hear him sometimes, even when he was playing solo. It was just too big of a venue for a piano to fill, and some amplification would have been great. And a more appropriate venue would have been even better ! geoff |
#23
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
How to Mic a Grand Piano
On 2/9/2013 6:50 PM, geoff wrote:
"Paul" wrote in message ... On 2/8/2013 3:36 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote: I saw Lang Lang play at a local music hall that seats 2,300. Up in the balcony seats, way in the back, you could barely hear him sometimes, even when he was playing solo. It was just too big of a venue for a piano to fill, and some amplification would have been great. And a more appropriate venue would have been even better ! geoff Totally agree. There's more to a venue than the number of seats. I [we] know nothing of that venue and this would be hard pressed to support such a generalization. That room may have been too big, but other 2300 seat (or more) rooms may not have been. == Later... Ron Capik -- |
#24
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
How to Mic a Grand Piano
In article , Paul wrote:
On 2/8/2013 3:36 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote: We also don't listen to singers with our ears right up to their lips, but that's the way many of them sing into a microphone live, and it still sounds similar enough to their un-amplified voices (assuming reasonably flat frequency response of the PA). Listen to some PA board tapes and you'll see how dramatically different it sounds than their natural voice. In fact, since the 1930s a whole singing style has grown up where the close-up sound from the microphone is the whole point; it brings a sense of closeness and intimacy that you don't hear in a real voice. That's why you'll see people using U87s and the like for vocal recording; they don't _want_ a natural vocal sound, they want a larger than life sound. For classical singers and for a lot of other traditional styles, it's common to mike some distance away, in part because so much of the sound is coming from the chest rather than the mouth. Sometimes this is even done for PA applications (as in the Three Tenors rigs). Ditto for close-miked drums. You certainly don't listen to them live with your ear a few inches from the drum heads. Just using ambient overheads gives you the overall kit sound, but it can be a weak signal-to-noise ratio if used by itself. The reason folks spot drums has nothing to do with SNR, and everything to do with stylistic effect. For a really interesting take on it, listen to what Stan Kenton had to say about drum spots. One could argue any electronically recorded or amplified sound is "unnatural", which is what some opera purists do. Of course. PA has no place in performances like that. As far as recording goes, it's a necessary evil because you can't have Maria Callas in your living room live anymore, and the goal is to reproduce the performance as accurately as possible in the recording. I saw Lang Lang play at a local music hall that seats 2,300. Up in the balcony seats, way in the back, you could barely hear him sometimes, even when he was playing solo. It was just too big of a venue for a piano to fill, and some amplification would have been great. Sounds like you have some hall acoustics problems. Don't blame the technique for a bad room. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#25
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
How to Mic a Grand Piano
Jeff Henig wrote:
Oscar Peterson? Yeah, he was okay. *deadpan stare at the camera* Sounds like this guy had quite a "friend list." Malcom was very good people. Everybody wanted to work with him, because he was friendly and helpful, he wanted to get the job done, and he had an amazing intuitive knowledge of what was going to work and what wasn't. He used to post here occasionally back in the days when Usenet was a going concern and a lot of active engineers hung out here, if you want to look up some of the stuff he posted. I think his old website is archived too. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#26
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
How to Mic a Grand Piano
Jeff Henig wrote:
"Steve King" wrote: hank alrich wrote: Paul wrote: On 2/8/2013 9:50 AM, hank alrich wrote: Paul wrote: On 2/7/2013 11:33 PM, Paul wrote: On 2/7/2013 5:50 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote: In article , Paul wrote: http://vimeo.com/42320857 Poor amateurs like me would replace the Audix mics with their favorite cheap condenser.... This is a rock piano technique.... notice how throughout the first half he's talking about PA applications? This is something you do to eliminate room sound and leakage. Notice in the second half how terrible the room sounds? You can hear the slap echo on the lav mike, even. His advice is good advice, and the technique of using the ambient mikes mixed in with close mikes is a useful one when you're trying to blur the room sound. There's a limit to how much I'm willing to tolerate the fifty-foot-wide piano with my head stuck inside it, though, even for rock where you're looking for that bright hammery sound to make it cut through a mix. --scott Here's another good article: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan0...rding_0108.htm Great audio samples on this site. So far, I like the InsideCoincidentPair2, and InsideSpaced15cmPair1, the later having beefier bass response, but would need some EQing for my taste. I prefer the more intimate sound of mikes inside the piano. Which is a completely fake sound compared to having one's head outside of the piano. That's all pop and rockery, a sound devised to solve a problem in context. The piano player's head is not too far from the insides, and since I'm a piano player, that could be why I prefer that sound. Stick your head where those mics are placed and have someone else play the piano. It sounds very little like it sounds from the piano bench. (1921 Chickering grand here.) My first recording studio job was helping Malcolm Chisholm build a studio on the north side of Chicago. We were well along with the build, when he announced that it was time to buy a piano, and an old friend was going to help. The old friend turned out to be Oscar Peterson, who was playing a week at a club called The London House. Malcolm had recorded a couple of albums with Peterson at United Recorders in LA. We went to several piano stores, where Oscar played and we listened. Oscar said he really liked a Chickering, thought it would record really well. I think both Malcolm and I were concerned that a Steinway might be a bigger draw for a new studio, but we went with Mr. Peterson's advice. It was a great, great piano. Not only did it sound really good, but it also stayed in tune much longer than we expected under the hard use of a lot of R & B sessions, where it got banged around pretty hard. Don't have any idea of the year, but it looked old when we bought it in 1965. Steve King Oscar Peterson? Yeah, he was okay. *deadpan stare at the camera* Sounds like this guy had quite a "friend list." Goodgle Malcolm Chisholm... -- shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/ http://hankandshaidrimusic.com/ http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic |
#27
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
How to Mic a Grand Piano
Scott Dorsey wrote:
Jeff Henig wrote: Oscar Peterson? Yeah, he was okay. *deadpan stare at the camera* Sounds like this guy had quite a "friend list." Malcom was very good people. Everybody wanted to work with him, because he was friendly and helpful, he wanted to get the job done, and he had an amazing intuitive knowledge of what was going to work and what wasn't. He used to post here occasionally back in the days when Usenet was a going concern and a lot of active engineers hung out here, if you want to look up some of the stuff he posted. I think his old website is archived too. --scott His son curates a site: http://www.malcolmchisholm.com/ -- shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/ http://hankandshaidrimusic.com/ http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic |
#28
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
How to Mic a Grand Piano
My first recording studio job was helping Malcolm Chisholm build a studio on the north side of Chicago. We were well along with the build, when he announced that it was time to buy a piano, and an old friend was going to help. The old friend turned out to be Oscar Peterson, who was playing a week at a club called The London House. Malcolm had recorded a couple of albums with Peterson at United Recorders in LA. We went to several piano stores, where Oscar played and we listened. Oscar said he really liked a Chickering, thought it would record really well. I think both Malcolm and I were concerned that a Steinway might be a bigger draw for a new studio, but we went with Mr. Peterson's advice. It was a great, great piano. Not only did it sound really good, but it also stayed in tune much longer than we expected under the hard use of a lot of R & B sessions, where it got banged around pretty hard. Don't have any idea of the year, but it looked old when we bought it in 1965. Steve King Wow. In your time with Mr Chisholm, did he ever speak of the recording of Ahmed Jamal's Poinciana? Kevin Gallimore |
#29
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
How to Mic a Grand Piano
Jeff Henig wrote:
"Steve King" wrote: hank alrich wrote: Paul wrote: On 2/8/2013 9:50 AM, hank alrich wrote: Paul wrote: On 2/7/2013 11:33 PM, Paul wrote: On 2/7/2013 5:50 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote: In article , Paul wrote: http://vimeo.com/42320857 Poor amateurs like me would replace the Audix mics with their favorite cheap condenser.... This is a rock piano technique.... notice how throughout the first half he's talking about PA applications? This is something you do to eliminate room sound and leakage. Notice in the second half how terrible the room sounds? You can hear the slap echo on the lav mike, even. His advice is good advice, and the technique of using the ambient mikes mixed in with close mikes is a useful one when you're trying to blur the room sound. There's a limit to how much I'm willing to tolerate the fifty-foot-wide piano with my head stuck inside it, though, even for rock where you're looking for that bright hammery sound to make it cut through a mix. --scott Here's another good article: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan0...rding_0108.htm Great audio samples on this site. So far, I like the InsideCoincidentPair2, and InsideSpaced15cmPair1, the later having beefier bass response, but would need some EQing for my taste. I prefer the more intimate sound of mikes inside the piano. Which is a completely fake sound compared to having one's head outside of the piano. That's all pop and rockery, a sound devised to solve a problem in context. The piano player's head is not too far from the insides, and since I'm a piano player, that could be why I prefer that sound. Stick your head where those mics are placed and have someone else play the piano. It sounds very little like it sounds from the piano bench. (1921 Chickering grand here.) My first recording studio job was helping Malcolm Chisholm build a studio on the north side of Chicago. We were well along with the build, when he announced that it was time to buy a piano, and an old friend was going to help. The old friend turned out to be Oscar Peterson, who was playing a week at a club called The London House. Malcolm had recorded a couple of albums with Peterson at United Recorders in LA. We went to several piano stores, where Oscar played and we listened. Oscar said he really liked a Chickering, thought it would record really well. I think both Malcolm and I were concerned that a Steinway might be a bigger draw for a new studio, but we went with Mr. Peterson's advice. It was a great, great piano. Not only did it sound really good, but it also stayed in tune much longer than we expected under the hard use of a lot of R & B sessions, where it got banged around pretty hard. Don't have any idea of the year, but it looked old when we bought it in 1965. Steve King Oscar Peterson? Yeah, he was okay. *deadpan stare at the camera* Sounds like this guy had quite a "friend list." Check out this site for a list of his 'friends', the solo artists he recorded as mixer from his time at Chess Records, Universal Recording Chicago, United Recorders Hollywood, Chess again, Chicago Stereo Studios (actually Chicago Sound Studios...the site gets that wrong), Paragon Recording Chicago, and Sound Studios Chicago. As a measure of the respect he had from the artists he recorded, his little black book had private phone numbers of most of them. It was during his stint at Chess Records from 1958 - 1960 that he was at the center of the R & B scene and, some would say, the birth of rock and roll. He was my mentor at Chicago Sound Studios and my employee, when I was studio manager at Paragon Recording. Among the names that jump out at you that he recorded are Frank Sinatra, Sarah Vaughn, Chuck Berry, Jerry Lee Lewis, Ella Fitzgerald, Muddy Waters, Willie Dixon, and on and on. He got called for legitimate music, as he called it, too: the Chicago Symphony and the Fine Arts Quartet among others. I was his gofer for a recording of the Fine Arts Quartet on the stage of the Auditoreum Theater in Chicago renowned for its accoustics and before its renovation. With rubble all around we set up two Sony C-37s and a two-track Ampex 300 with electronics that Malcolm had modified. We used a pair of JBL (SM 7s ??) monitors to check playback of short test recordings, moved mics a bit, tested again until Malcolm and the players were happy, then hit record. The musicians played with their music stands lit by two stage work lights. Malcolm's writing on studio design and building techniques is still useful today. A lot is on this web site. He was an incredible guy to learn from. Check out this site: http://malcolm.bignoisybug.com/ Steve King |
#30
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
How to Mic a Grand Piano
axolotl wrote:
My first recording studio job was helping Malcolm Chisholm build a studio on the north side of Chicago. We were well along with the build, when he announced that it was time to buy a piano, and an old friend was going to help. The old friend turned out to be Oscar Peterson, who was playing a week at a club called The London House. Malcolm had recorded a couple of albums with Peterson at United Recorders in LA. We went to several piano stores, where Oscar played and we listened. Oscar said he really liked a Chickering, thought it would record really well. I think both Malcolm and I were concerned that a Steinway might be a bigger draw for a new studio, but we went with Mr. Peterson's advice. It was a great, great piano. Not only did it sound really good, but it also stayed in tune much longer than we expected under the hard use of a lot of R & B sessions, where it got banged around pretty hard. Don't have any idea of the year, but it looked old when we bought it in 1965. Steve King Wow. In your time with Mr Chisholm, did he ever speak of the recording of Ahmed Jamal's Poinciana? Kevin Gallimore Malcom didn't talk much about what he had done unless you really pressed him. He talked about what he was doing and planned to do. In his teaching he did use a lot of his recordings as teaching tools. If you check out the web site I posted a bit ago there are a lot of stories about Malcolm as a teacher at Columbia College in Chicago, where he was teaching, when he got sick with lung cancer and died too young. Steve King |
#31
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
How to Mic a Grand Piano
On 2/10/2013 7:15 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article , Paul wrote: On 2/8/2013 3:36 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote: We also don't listen to singers with our ears right up to their lips, but that's the way many of them sing into a microphone live, and it still sounds similar enough to their un-amplified voices (assuming reasonably flat frequency response of the PA). Listen to some PA board tapes and you'll see how dramatically different it sounds than their natural voice. In fact, since the 1930s a whole singing style has grown up where the close-up sound from the microphone is the whole point; it brings a sense of closeness and intimacy that you don't hear in a real voice. That's why you'll see people using U87s and the like for vocal recording; they don't _want_ a natural vocal sound, they want a larger than life sound. I appreciate your input. From that perspective, I definitely prefer the larger than life, more intimate sound of the piano miked from the inside, so that's what I'll shoot for. I'll still probably mix in a far-field mic. |
#32
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
Malcolm Chisholm (Was " How to Mic a Grand Piano")
Steve King wrote:
Check out this site for a list of his 'friends', the solo artists he recorded as mixer from his time at Chess Records, Universal Recording Chicago, United Recorders Hollywood, Chess again, Chicago Stereo Studios (actually Chicago Sound Studios...the site gets that wrong), Paragon Recording Chicago, and Sound Studios Chicago. As a measure of the respect he had from the artists he recorded, his little black book had private phone numbers of most of them. It was during his stint at Chess Records from 1958 - 1960 that he was at the center of the R & B scene and, some would say, the birth of rock and roll. He was my mentor at Chicago Sound Studios and my employee, when I was studio manager at Paragon Recording. Among the names that jump out at you that he recorded are Frank Sinatra, Sarah Vaughn, Chuck Berry, Jerry Lee Lewis, Ella Fitzgerald, Muddy Waters, Willie Dixon, and on and on. He got called for legitimate music, as he called it, too: the Chicago Symphony and the Fine Arts Quartet among others. I was his gofer for a recording of the Fine Arts Quartet on the stage of the Auditoreum Theater in Chicago renowned for its accoustics and before its renovation. With rubble all around we set up two Sony C-37s and a two-track Ampex 300 with electronics that Malcolm had modified. We used a pair of JBL (SM 7s ??) monitors to check playback of short test recordings, moved mics a bit, tested again until Malcolm and the players were happy, then hit record. The musicians played with their music stands lit by two stage work lights. Malcolm's writing on studio design and building techniques is still useful today. A lot is on this web site. He was an incredible guy to learn from. Check out this site: http://malcolm.bignoisybug.com/ Steve King Thanks, Steve. -- shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/ http://hankandshaidrimusic.com/ http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic |
#33
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
How to Mic a Grand Piano
His son curates a site: http://www.malcolmchisholm.com/ holy hell what a great resource. I especially like the article on microphone selection.... |
#34
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
How to Mic a Grand Piano
On Fri, 08 Feb 2013 10:47:38 -0700 "Paul" wrote in
article That sounds like a great idea actually. I could offer to help in a local studio in exchange for seeing their methods. If I'm really lucky, they'll press the record button after a paying customer is gone, and let me bang out a couple of quick sample tunes, just so I can hear what their stuff sounds like.... Jesus, I'm such a cheapie!! It must be in my DNA....... :/ Good luck finding any. I live near Woodstock, NY. Until a decade ago or so, there were studios everywhere around here, often tucked into the woods halfway up some mountain or other. Now, they're almost all gone. The last really snazzy one to vanish was Allaire I believe. It sprung from the ashes of Bearsville Studio but I think it was only running for a few years. The sumptuous accomodations and amenities cost too much apparently. But I also wonder if the studios' fate followed the pop music industry down. |
#35
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
How to Mic a Grand Piano
On 2/10/2013 5:25 PM, Jason wrote:
On Fri, 08 Feb 2013 10:47:38 -0700 "Paul" wrote in article That sounds like a great idea actually. I could offer to help in a local studio in exchange for seeing their methods. If I'm really lucky, they'll press the record button after a paying customer is gone, and let me bang out a couple of quick sample tunes, just so I can hear what their stuff sounds like.... Jesus, I'm such a cheapie!! It must be in my DNA....... :/ Good luck finding any. I live near Woodstock, NY. Until a decade ago or so, there were studios everywhere around here, often tucked into the woods halfway up some mountain or other. Now, they're almost all gone. The last really snazzy one to vanish was Allaire I believe. It sprung from the ashes of Bearsville Studio but I think it was only running for a few years. The sumptuous accomodations and amenities cost too much apparently. But I also wonder if the studios' fate followed the pop music industry down. Surely the popularity of home studios has led to less work for them. |
#36
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
How to Mic a Grand Piano
Some time ago, I've recorded series of 12 concerts (1 per month) for solo "prepared" piano (prepared with various noise making junk), for good part of it piano was not prepared. There were 4 mics.
1. Coincident pair, couple of meters from piano towards the edge of the stage, as if someone from the audience would put jump on stage and listen from there. 2. Spaced pair inside, trying to have even response. Then,... 1. I used for the meat of the sound, 2. I added to get that tingling feeling of stereo in my ears. |
#37
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
How to Mic a Grand Piano
On 2/11/2013 4:23 AM, Luxey wrote:
Some time ago, I've recorded series of 12 concerts (1 per month) for solo "prepared" piano (prepared with various noise making junk), for good part of it piano was not prepared. There were 4 mics. 1. Coincident pair, couple of meters from piano towards the edge of the stage, as if someone from the audience would put jump on stage and listen from there. 2. Spaced pair inside, trying to have even response. Then,... 1. I used for the meat of the sound, 2. I added to get that tingling feeling of stereo in my ears. Yeah, I definitely prefer the sound of miking closer to the strings, inside the piano. It doesn't sound un-natural to me. It just sounds stronger, fuller, and better overall. I'll still probably mix in a mic further away. As the fella in the video said, there are millions of ways to do it. |
#38
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
How to Mic a Grand Piano
Paul wrote:
On 2/10/2013 5:25 PM, Jason wrote: On Fri, 08 Feb 2013 10:47:38 -0700 "Paul" wrote in article That sounds like a great idea actually. I could offer to help in a local studio in exchange for seeing their methods. If I'm really lucky, they'll press the record button after a paying customer is gone, and let me bang out a couple of quick sample tunes, just so I can hear what their stuff sounds like.... Jesus, I'm such a cheapie!! It must be in my DNA....... :/ Good luck finding any. I live near Woodstock, NY. Until a decade ago or so, there were studios everywhere around here, often tucked into the woods halfway up some mountain or other. Now, they're almost all gone. The last really snazzy one to vanish was Allaire I believe. It sprung from the ashes of Bearsville Studio but I think it was only running for a few years. The sumptuous accomodations and amenities cost too much apparently. But I also wonder if the studios' fate followed the pop music industry down. Surely the popularity of home studios has led to less work for them. The failure of many to pay for music they apparently can't live without is the primary point of deprivation for the music industry at levels below the very top. Up there the action is so deep a few million lost here or there makes little difference to the limo driver. Everywhere else it's the end of an era, and many careers. -- shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/ http://hankandshaidrimusic.com/ http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic |
#39
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
How to Mic a Grand Piano
On Monday, February 11, 2013 9:32:26 AM UTC-5, hank alrich wrote:
The failure of many to pay for music they apparently can't live without is the primary point of deprivation for the music industry at levels below the very top. Up there the action is so deep a few million lost here or there makes little difference to the limo driver. Everywhere else it's the end of an era, and many careers. Not to go totally OT (but I will anyway), Hank you are exactly right, except that stealing is no longer the issue. The "industry" has created an environment where the consumer pays for access (through their broadband provider, etc...) and can get content for free or nearly free (through pandora, spotify, and especially youtube! etc...). Now the consumer expects that and the majority of consumers are pleased with this model. I can't tell you how many "lay people" I know who think pandora and spotify are the greatest things ever. They are not people who are "stealing" music. They are using products made available to them by the "industry". They don't know, think, or care that we're not being compensated properly- they just assume we are.. And that money that traditionally they would have spent each month on a new record or two is being spent on their broadband access.... I like iTunes as the model actually does work and generate revenue IF people are buying whole records, but youtube, pandora and spotify have negated many folks' use of itunes even! Thank god I can still get paid to play a concert. |
#40
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
How to Mic a Grand Piano
Nate Najar wrote:
On Monday, February 11, 2013 9:32:26 AM UTC-5, hank alrich wrote: The failure of many to pay for music they apparently can't live without is the primary point of deprivation for the music industry at levels below the very top. Up there the action is so deep a few million lost here or there makes little difference to the limo driver. Everywhere else it's the end of an era, and many careers. Not to go totally OT (but I will anyway), Hank you are exactly right, except that stealing is no longer the issue. The "industry" has created an environment where the consumer pays for access (through their broadband provider, etc...) and can get content for free or nearly free (through pandora, spotify, and especially youtube! etc...). Now the consumer expects that and the majority of consumers are pleased with this model. I can't tell you how many "lay people" I know who think pandora and spotify are the greatest things ever. They are not people who are "stealing" music. They are using products made available to them by the "industry". They don't know, think, or care that we're not being compensated properly- they just assume we are. And that money that traditionally they would have spent each month on a new record or two is being spent on their broadband access.... I like iTunes as the model actually does work and generate revenue IF people are buying whole records, but youtube, pandora and spotify have negated many folks' use of itunes even! Google leads straight to pirate sites. After a million takedown notices. The DCMA was designed to be dysfunctional right from the start. http://www.digitalmusicnews.com/perm...30208lumineers Thank god I can still get paid to play a concert. And there it is, the value of live music! Amen. -- shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/ http://hankandshaidrimusic.com/ http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic |
Reply |
|
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Forum | |||
Rode NT2-A and NT5 in XY for Classical Grand Piano? | Pro Audio | |||
grand piano in a poor space? | Pro Audio | |||
X/Y Mic Placement for Grand Piano | Pro Audio | |||
SP C4s on Concert Grand Piano | Pro Audio | |||
SP C4s on Concert Grand Piano | Pro Audio |