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  #1   Report Post  
Patrick Turner
 
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Default Toroidal core lamination properties.



A search on Google about GOSS brought a shirtload of mainly
indecipherable info
re GOSS transformer materials, and magnetic materials in general.


The people at Tortech ( aust ),
http://www.tortech.com.au/toranalysis.html
say this



"The magnetic core material for most power transformers Is made of
grain-oriented, cold-rolled, 3% silicon steel that is coated and
Insulated. That material has
lower exciting current and core losses than regular steel. It also has
relatively high saturation flux density with a high degree of
squareness. Squareness is the
ratio of residual flux density (remanence) to the maximum flux density
(saturation), or Br/Bs. The oriented grain allows the steel to be
operated at a higher
saturation-flux density than non-oriented steel.
The core material is annealed at high temperature in a dry hydrogen
furnace to remove impurities and relieve the material stresses.
Annealing also develops the
desired magnetic properties, such as high squareness and low core loss.
The steel strip Is coated with a chemical finish to ensure high
resistance between
laminations. Finally the annealed cores are varnish impregnated, cured.
and painted or epoxy coated."



There is reference to " most power transformers " being made from GOSS.
But GOSS isn't universally used, its twice the price of the non oriented
steels.

There is no mention of the U figure.

It is sales pitch.

Most transformer companies like this don't make it easy for the layman
to understand what is really available, and rely on the general
impression
that after several pages of boring transformer talk, a possible customer
will
conclude that they know a lot and place an order.

Probably Tortech do use GOSS with a high U
but we are left to assume they do.

And at the end of the day we have to try some material and measure the
VI input, and if its a low value, and losses are low and that is what is
wanted,
as well as low thd in audio trannies, we accept the material.
We don't have to know all there is to be known about the core material
production,
but there is no reason to assume anything, and i base my position on
the variability of core materials i have been sent from
various companies in Oz over the last 8 years.

Patrick Turner.





  #2   Report Post  
Phil Allison
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Patrick Turner" = asinine, criminal ****wit

The people at Tortech ( aust ),
http://www.tortech.com.au/toranalysis.html
say this



** Tortech is a small transformer winding business in Sydney. They buy lams
and wound cores from local and foreign suppliers. The owner is Mike
arkin - he supplied me with the 160VA wound core I use in my test. It is
the same as ones he uses to make AC power transformers.

The para quoted below does not even contain the word "toroidal " so has no
relevance to the heading - as is usual for the Turneroid autistic .


These pages all give the steel strip material used by toroidal mains
transformer makers as being GOSS.


http://www.airlinktransformers.com/t...al_toroid.html

http://www.tabtronics.com/toroids.htm#core

http://www.isomatic.co.uk/toroidalcores.htm

http://avellindberg.com/transformers...ech_notes2.htm



................. Phil





"The magnetic core material for most power transformers Is made of
grain-oriented, cold-rolled, 3% silicon steel that is coated and
Insulated. That material has
lower exciting current and core losses than regular steel. It also has
relatively high saturation flux density with a high degree of
squareness. Squareness is the
ratio of residual flux density (remanence) to the maximum flux density
(saturation), or Br/Bs. The oriented grain allows the steel to be
operated at a higher
saturation-flux density than non-oriented steel.
The core material is annealed at high temperature in a dry hydrogen
furnace to remove impurities and relieve the material stresses.
Annealing also develops the
desired magnetic properties, such as high squareness and low core loss.
The steel strip Is coated with a chemical finish to ensure high
resistance between
laminations. Finally the annealed cores are varnish impregnated, cured.
and painted or epoxy coated."





  #3   Report Post  
Patrick Turner
 
Posts: n/a
Default



Phil Allison wrote:

"Patrick Turner" = asinine, criminal ****wit

The people at Tortech ( aust ),
http://www.tortech.com.au/toranalysis.html
say this


** Tortech is a small transformer winding business in Sydney. They buy lams
and wound cores from local and foreign suppliers. The owner is Mike
arkin - he supplied me with the 160VA wound core I use in my test. It is
the same as ones he uses to make AC power transformers.


I know Mike Larkin.

In 1995, he quoted me a huge figure for a PT, choke, and two OPTs.

He said he was unable to do the OPTs in Oz because the finest wire he could use
was 0.63 mm dia,
and that he'd have to subcontract the OPTs to a company called NZ Coils P/L,
which
I have never been able to track down.
I thanked him, and said I'd consider the deal for awhile.

Since the material costs were about 20% of the huge quote,
I figured i'd be better off winding all this stuff myself, because my hourly
rates
are far lower than his.

It is impossible for any Oz transformer winder to make me anything
at a price where I could then use in amps which I could then sell
to compete with chinese imports and make a wage.

Mike would understand this.



It is most likely you have good GOSS material in the test core you used in your
test.

Its not hard to find out just what you got.
Just measure the inductance at 50 Hz across a range of voltages until saturation

occurs, and note the maximum L.
Then work out what the Bmax is for where L is at a maximum.
Probably you may find L max is where B = about 0.8T.
Knowing what turns, Afe, and ML you got, you can work out what the U must be.


My point I made previously was that since there is such a **HUGE** variation in
the U and losses
in E&I lams and Ccores I have purchased, it follows thet not all of what is
claimed to be
GOSS is identical.

And I maintain that just because some GOSS is wound into a spiral,
the U compared to an interleaved E&I tranny won't necessarily be
10 to 15 times what it is in the E&I lams.

And I would maintain that if you had some "plain old transformer iron, ie,
not GOSS, and you wound some into a toroid, there would be a considerable
increase in the U compared to E&I, but just how much I don't know.




The para quoted below does not even contain the word "toroidal " so has no
relevance to the heading - as is usual for the Turneroid autistic .


But it was from Tortech, who praise the virtues of their toroidal wares...



These pages all give the steel strip material used by toroidal mains
transformer makers as being GOSS.

http://www.airlinktransformers.com/t...al_toroid.html

http://www.tabtronics.com/toroids.htm#core

http://www.isomatic.co.uk/toroidalcores.htm

http://avellindberg.com/transformers...ech_notes2.htm

................ Phil


Thankyou for the references.

From one they say

"Since toroidal cores are constructed of a continuously wound ribbon, there is
virtually no air gap. The windings are evenly
wrapped over the entire core allowing the transformer to operate at a higher
flux density than in standard transformers. Toroidal
transformers can operate at 1.6 to 1.8 Tesla (16,000 to 18,000 Gauss) while EI
cores are limited to 1.2 to 1.4 Tesla (12,000
to 14,000 Gauss)."

I have never seen a toroidal tranny set up to run at 1.8T

***ALL*** the several toroidals from Jaycar were set up to run at no more than
1.25T, and all were disgustingly noisy and unacceptable in hi-fi amps.

Two 800 VA toroidal transformers made by Harbuch were also unacceptably noisy,
and
also set up to run at 1.25T, and the only way I could shut the buggers up
was to remove the secondaries by winding the wire onto a notched
dowel shuttle by hand, and add 33% more turns to the primary, and then rewind
the
primary, all with a shuttle.

It took days.

But I got there, and the trannies finished up acceptably quiet for
use in tube amps with a main power going to a rectified plate plate supply,
despite the fact that the re-wound tranies were not vacuum varnished, but
empployed the same insulation technique of winding tight strips
of polyester on which is then further self tightening when layers of wire
are pulled tight ove them.


One amp has been in constant use since 1996, and the tranny runs quiet.

Needless to say, the core losses are negligible, but I measured it all, since i
assume nothing.

Since getting toroidal OPTs properly wound with all the taps and multiple
windings
i wanted and with epoxy resin
impregnant vaccuum impregnated is prohibitively expensive
and unlikely to even be available, I was forced to look around
for decent low loss E&I, and I came across Sankey who make the
GOSS E&I that measures U = 17,000.
I have to buy $400 worth each time, since their minimum order is
50 Kg.
I had previously bought some british made imported GOSS E&I,
I think it went about 7,000, not too bad....

Plitron wind some splendid toroidal transformers.
They do cost quite a bit though.

Patrick Turner.




  #4   Report Post  
Phil Allison
 
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Default



"Patrick Turner" = asinine, criminal ****wit

Phil Allison


It is most likely you have good GOSS material in the test core you used in
your
test.



** It is a certainty since that is the only material used.


And I maintain that just because some GOSS is wound into a spiral,
the U compared to an interleaved E&I tranny won't necessarily be
10 to 15 times what it is in the E&I lams.



** Two counter examples:


#1.

The I mag @ 240 volts for a 300 VA mains toroidal ( from Harbuch) on the
bench is 11mA rms.

At 120 volts, I mag falls to 1.7 mA, becomes sine wave and has a 12 degree
phase angle.

The load R is effectively 70 kohms.

For this case, L computes to be over 1000 H using: L = R / ( 2.pi.50.
tan 12d )



#2.

The I mag @ 240 volts for a 160 VA mains toroidal ( from Jaycar) on the
bench is 7 mA rms.

At 120 volts, the I mag falls to 1.6 mA, becomes near sine wave and has a 15
degree phase angle.

The load R is effectively 75 kohms.

L computes to be nearly 900 H.




The para quoted below does not even contain the word "toroidal " so has
no
relevance to the heading - as is usual for the Turneroid autistic .


But it was from Tortech, who praise the virtues of their toroidal wares...



** More autistic Turneroid excrement - what a ****ing pong !!!





............... Phil




  #5   Report Post  
Patrick Turner
 
Posts: n/a
Default



Phil Allison wrote:

"Patrick Turner" = asinine, criminal ****wit

Phil Allison

It is most likely you have good GOSS material in the test core you used in
your
test.


** It is a certainty since that is the only material used.

And I maintain that just because some GOSS is wound into a spiral,
the U compared to an interleaved E&I tranny won't necessarily be
10 to 15 times what it is in the E&I lams.


** Two counter examples:

#1.

The I mag @ 240 volts for a 300 VA mains toroidal ( from Harbuch) on the
bench is 11mA rms.

At 120 volts, I mag falls to 1.7 mA, becomes sine wave and has a 12 degree
phase angle.

The load R is effectively 70 kohms.

For this case, L computes to be over 1000 H using: L = R / ( 2.pi.50.
tan 12d )

#2.

The I mag @ 240 volts for a 160 VA mains toroidal ( from Jaycar) on the
bench is 7 mA rms.

At 120 volts, the I mag falls to 1.6 mA, becomes near sine wave and has a 15
degree phase angle.

The load R is effectively 75 kohms.

L computes to be nearly 900 H.


You are quite right with all these calcs
I get quite high enough inductance figures with the GOSS E&I material
I use from Sankey.


For an iron cored inductor, with no unbalanced DC flow in only one direction, as
in an SE amp,
or with balanced DC, as in the case of a PP amp, or a mains tranny is

1.26 x Np squared x Afe x U
Lp = ---------------------------------
1,000,000,000 x ML

Where Lp = primary inductance in Henrys,
1.26 is a constant,
Np = primary turns,
Afe is the cross sectional area of the core in square mm,
U is the mu of the iron at low voltage levels,
1,000,000,000 is a constant,
ML is the magnetic path length around the core in mm.

Now its obvious from your measurements that the
L was more at 120v than 240v input, which tells
you the U of the material has declined with increasing voltage, ie
increasing Bmax.

You know all the items in the above formula except U.

What is the U for the 240v and 120v conditions?

If the current at 240v is badly distorted, the calculation of L at
the higher Vin is questionable.

But max U may be well below saturation onset, and maybe at
180v input.

So what maximum U are you getting?

I try to run my trannies at about 0.85T, and U is at its highest, losses are
negligible, and even with crummy NOSS E&I cores the outcome is acceptable
because the item is quiet and cool.




The para quoted below does not even contain the word "toroidal " so has
no
relevance to the heading - as is usual for the Turneroid autistic .


But it was from Tortech, who praise the virtues of their toroidal wares...


** More autistic Turneroid excrement - what a ****ing pong !!!


I didn't think a pong could copulate, but anything is possible in your
imagination.

Patrick Turner.




.............. Phil




  #6   Report Post  
Phil Allison
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Patrick Turner" = asinine, criminal ****wit
Phil Allison

And I maintain that just because some GOSS is wound into a spiral,
the U compared to an interleaved E&I tranny won't necessarily be
10 to 15 times what it is in the E&I lams.


** Two counter examples:

#1.

The I mag @ 240 volts for a 300 VA mains toroidal ( from Harbuch) on the
bench is 11mA rms.

At 120 volts, I mag falls to 1.7 mA, becomes sine wave and has a 12
degree
phase angle.

The load R is effectively 70 kohms.

For this case, L computes to be over 1000 H using: L = R / ( 2.pi.50.
tan 12d )

#2.

The I mag @ 240 volts for a 160 VA mains toroidal ( from Jaycar) on the
bench is 7 mA rms.

At 120 volts, the I mag falls to 1.6 mA, becomes near sine wave and has a
15
degree phase angle.

The load R is effectively 75 kohms.

L computes to be nearly 900 H.



You are quite right with all these calcs




** Now you do the same for E -core tannies of similar ratings - your own
or commercial ones.

Lets compares the I mag and effective L primary figures.

Lets see if the toroidals win by 10 to 15 times.





............... Phil







  #7   Report Post  
Patrick Turner
 
Posts: n/a
Default



Phil Allison wrote:

"Patrick Turner" = asinine, criminal ****wit
Phil Allison

And I maintain that just because some GOSS is wound into a spiral,
the U compared to an interleaved E&I tranny won't necessarily be
10 to 15 times what it is in the E&I lams.

** Two counter examples:

#1.

The I mag @ 240 volts for a 300 VA mains toroidal ( from Harbuch) on the
bench is 11mA rms.

At 120 volts, I mag falls to 1.7 mA, becomes sine wave and has a 12
degree
phase angle.

The load R is effectively 70 kohms.

For this case, L computes to be over 1000 H using: L = R / ( 2.pi.50.
tan 12d )

#2.

The I mag @ 240 volts for a 160 VA mains toroidal ( from Jaycar) on the
bench is 7 mA rms.

At 120 volts, the I mag falls to 1.6 mA, becomes near sine wave and has a
15
degree phase angle.

The load R is effectively 75 kohms.

L computes to be nearly 900 H.



You are quite right with all these calcs


** Now you do the same for E -core tannies of similar ratings - your own
or commercial ones.

Lets compares the I mag and effective L primary figures.

Lets see if the toroidals win by 10 to 15 times.


If we were to compare E&I Lycore 150 which is NOSS,
and max U = about 3,000, then the toroidal tranny has **far lower losses**
and far larger inductance for the same Bmax.

I recall I measured the toroidal from Harbuch, and it measured about
U = 27,000.

The latest GOSS E&I from Sankey gives me 17,000.

I don't see how a toroid of the same material could
have a max U = 255,000, which is your 15 times better.


You haven't done the calcs to tell us the Bmax and the U
for your sample toroidals.

I might have done some calcs for you but you haven't told us the details of the
tranny.
We need Np, Afe, Lp, ML, and we might be able to get U.

For Bmax we need V, F, Np, Afe.

Np is easy to find with a toroid.
Wind 10 turns onto the toroid and apply
240v to the primary meant for 240v, with no load.
Then measure the voltage across the 10 turns.
Say you get 3.0 v.
TPV = 10 / 3.0 = 3.33.

Therefore Np = 240 x 3.33 = 800 turns.
If you cannot measure the AFe of the core because its covered in layers of wire,

then estimate it, based on what you think the dimensions are.
Your measurements should be within 10%.

I repeat my question, What is the U of the material
at 240v and 120v input to the the samples you tested?

If you want to convince us any old toroid has 15 times the inductance
for an E&I tranny using the same material and with the same Bmax, you better get
on and do it,
rather than wasting your time time including personal insults in your posts.

Your insults don't waste my time because there is little point replying to
insults,
but I have to say I thought you were so very inconsistent recently when you
instructed me to
get bowel cancer and die, but then you lecture Pinkerton about what you say
are his Nazi tendencies.



Patrick Turner.







.............. Phil


  #8   Report Post  
Phil Allison
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Patrick Turner" = asinine, criminal ****wit

Phil Allison

And I maintain that just because some GOSS is wound into a spiral,
the U compared to an interleaved E&I tranny won't necessarily be
10 to 15 times what it is in the E&I lams.

** Two counter examples:

#1.

The I mag @ 240 volts for a 300 VA mains toroidal ( from Harbuch) on
the
bench is 11mA rms.

At 120 volts, I mag falls to 1.7 mA, becomes sine wave and has a 12
degree
phase angle.

The load R is effectively 70 kohms.

For this case, L computes to be over 1000 H using: L = R / (
2.pi.50.
tan 12d )

#2.

The I mag @ 240 volts for a 160 VA mains toroidal ( from Jaycar) on
the
bench is 7 mA rms.

At 120 volts, the I mag falls to 1.6 mA, becomes near sine wave and
has a
15
degree phase angle.

The load R is effectively 75 kohms.

L computes to be nearly 900 H.


You are quite right with all these calcs


** Now you do the same for E -core tannies of similar ratings - your
own
or commercial ones.

Lets compares the I mag and effective L primary figures.

Lets see if the toroidals win by 10 to 15 times.



If you want to convince us any old toroid has 15 times the inductance
for an E&I tranny using the same material and with the same Bmax, you
better get
on and do it,



** I just posted the bloody evidence - you brain dead ****.

Do similar tests using similar sized E cores and post the figures.

The I mag figures will reveal the effective inductance values being
achieved.


BTW Define your term "U" ????




Your insults don't waste my time because there is little point replying to
insults,



** No insults ever from me - but precise descriptions of the Turneroid -
one of the most evil POS on the planet.



but I have to say I thought you were so very inconsistent recently when
you
instructed me to
get bowel cancer and die,
but then you lecture Pinkerton about what you say
are his Nazi tendencies.



** Autistic morons see inconsistency where none exists.





................ Phil




  #9   Report Post  
Patrick Turner
 
Posts: n/a
Default


Lets see if the toroidals win by 10 to 15 times.



If you want to convince us any old toroid has 15 times the inductance
for an E&I tranny using the same material and with the same Bmax, you
better get
on and do it,


** I just posted the bloody evidence - you brain dead ****.


No you didn't.



Do similar tests using similar sized E cores and post the figures.

The I mag figures will reveal the effective inductance values being
achieved.

BTW Define your term "U" ????


Permeabilty.
Gee, I assumed you knew.
Well, since you don't know maybe, it explains a lot.

Don't bother yourself to give the full details of the conditions and
descriptions of your
testings.
Its all too hard to understand for you.





Your insults don't waste my time because there is little point replying to
insults,


** No insults ever from me - but precise descriptions of the Turneroid -
one of the most evil POS on the planet.


You have attacked nearly every person on this group with
completly unjustified insults, including last week when you told me
repeatedly to get cancer and die.

So don't be offended when the few ppl who have not killfiled you
see you as a lying demon, ie, you say you don't insult, but you do.

You are the laughing stock of the Web.

Patrick Turner.




but I have to say I thought you were so very inconsistent recently when
you
instructed me to
get bowel cancer and die,
but then you lecture Pinkerton about what you say
are his Nazi tendencies.


** Autistic morons see inconsistency where none exists.

............... Phil


  #10   Report Post  
Phil Allison
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Patrick Turner"


BTW Define your term "U" ????


Permeability.



** ****ing Bull**** !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


The term for permeability is "mu" or "u"


"U" has another meaning entirely.


Go see RDH4 - you pig ignorant **** !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!






................. Phil






  #11   Report Post  
Phil Allison
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Patrick Turner" = one grade A, asinine, criminal ****wit !!!!!!!

Phil Allison

And I maintain that just because some GOSS is wound into a spiral,
the U compared to an interleaved E&I tranny won't necessarily be
10 to 15 times what it is in the E&I lams.

** Two counter examples:

#1.

The I mag @ 240 volts for a 300 VA mains toroidal ( from Harbuch) on
the
bench is 11mA rms.

At 120 volts, I mag falls to 1.7 mA, becomes sine wave and has a 12
degree
phase angle.

The load R is effectively 70 kohms.

For this case, L computes to be over 1000 H using: L = R / (
2.pi.50.
tan 12d )

#2.

The I mag @ 240 volts for a 160 VA mains toroidal ( from Jaycar) on
the
bench is 7 mA rms.

At 120 volts, the I mag falls to 1.6 mA, becomes near sine wave and
has a
15
degree phase angle.

The load R is effectively 75 kohms.

L computes to be nearly 900 H.


You are quite right with all these calcs


** Now you do the same for E -core tannies of similar ratings - your
own
or commercial ones.

Lets compares the I mag and effective L primary figures.

Lets see if the toroidals win by 10 to 15 times.



If you want to convince us any old toroid has 15 times the inductance
for an E&I tranny using the same material and with the same Bmax, you
better get on and do it,




** I just posted the bloody evidence - you ****ing brain dead ****.

Do similar tests using similar sized E cores and post the figures.

The I mag figures will reveal the effective inductance values being
achieved.

Failure to reply PROVES you are a lying, POS, autistic ****.







.................. Phil


  #12   Report Post  
bill ramsay
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Sat, 5 Mar 2005 00:56:33 +1100, "Phil Allison"
wrote:


"Patrick Turner" = one grade A, asinine, criminal ****wit !!!!!!!

Phil Allison

And I maintain that just because some GOSS is wound into a spiral,
the U compared to an interleaved E&I tranny won't necessarily be
10 to 15 times what it is in the E&I lams.

** Two counter examples:

#1.

The I mag @ 240 volts for a 300 VA mains toroidal ( from Harbuch) on
the
bench is 11mA rms.

At 120 volts, I mag falls to 1.7 mA, becomes sine wave and has a 12
degree
phase angle.

The load R is effectively 70 kohms.

For this case, L computes to be over 1000 H using: L = R / (
2.pi.50.
tan 12d )

#2.

The I mag @ 240 volts for a 160 VA mains toroidal ( from Jaycar) on
the
bench is 7 mA rms.

At 120 volts, the I mag falls to 1.6 mA, becomes near sine wave and
has a
15
degree phase angle.

The load R is effectively 75 kohms.

L computes to be nearly 900 H.


You are quite right with all these calcs

** Now you do the same for E -core tannies of similar ratings - your
own
or commercial ones.

Lets compares the I mag and effective L primary figures.

Lets see if the toroidals win by 10 to 15 times.



If you want to convince us any old toroid has 15 times the inductance
for an E&I tranny using the same material and with the same Bmax, you
better get on and do it,




** I just posted the bloody evidence - you ****ing brain dead ****.

Do similar tests using similar sized E cores and post the figures.

The I mag figures will reveal the effective inductance values being
achieved.

Failure to reply PROVES you are a lying, POS, autistic ****.



I think Phil, that you will find wrapping your head in tin foil will
keep down the chances of aliens trying to 'mind meld' you with their
arse-holes.

keep taking the tablets.

you're getting out of hand.






................. Phil


  #13   Report Post  
Phil Allison
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"bill ramsay"


** Bill, do you have two legs or four ??

Need to wear clothes or quite warm as you are ??





............. Phil


  #14   Report Post  
bill ramsay
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Sat, 5 Mar 2005 14:20:47 +1100, "Phil Allison"
wrote:


"bill ramsay"


** Bill, do you have two legs or four ??

Need to wear clothes or quite warm as you are ??





............ Phil


does not matter, you are still an uncouth prat. keep taking the
pills, or rather, start taking the pills


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