Hello, folks...

I've got the opportunity on Thursday to participate in a workshop for a
group of 8 singing contest finalists.

My 60 to 90-minute segment is supposed to deal with "working with a
sound engineer" to include such items as mic-technique, communication
("It sounds all 'swimmy'"), basic gear info, and anything else I, as
sound engineer, deem appropriate.

What would y'all's top 5 list for such a presentation include?

A system will be up and running, so hands-on demonstration and talent
participation is possible and encouraged.

It's not inconceivable that a singer or two of this batch could be
singing through a board or two of yours in the future, so what would
you like me to tell them?

Thanks for any input, and I'll be sure to let you know how this thing
turns out!

Michael

Isn't that what a producer is for?

wrote:
Hello, folks...

I've got the opportunity on Thursday to participate in a workshop for a
group of 8 singing contest finalists.

My 60 to 90-minute segment is supposed to deal with "working with a
sound engineer" to include such items as mic-technique, communication
("It sounds all 'swimmy'"), basic gear info, and anything else I, as
sound engineer, deem appropriate.

What would y'all's top 5 list for such a presentation include?

A system will be up and running, so hands-on demonstration and talent
participation is possible and encouraged.

It's not inconceivable that a singer or two of this batch could be
singing through a board or two of yours in the future, so what would
you like me to tell them?

Thanks for any input, and I'll be sure to let you know how this thing
turns out!

Michael

wrote:

What would y'all's top 5 list for such a presentation include?

1. Learn to work the mike. Don't stick your face right up to the mike.
Find out if you're a P-popper or have a lot of sibilance, and learn
to work the mike to minimize this.

2. Tell the PA guys what you want and have WELL in advance. There is
nothing worse than setting up for an act and they get on stage, and
oh, yes, we have nine people and not the four we told you we'd have,
oh, and this person plays three guitars two of which have pickups....

3. Mike technique for recording and PA are different. Show them how.

4. Don't be a mike eater.

5. Learn what causes feedback and how you, as a singer, can avoid it.
This means NOT jumping out in front of the speaker stacks and trying
to sing there.

6. Don't be a mike eater.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

7. Memorize 4 and 6.

P.S. I hate mic eaters, too.

" wrote:

Hello, folks...

I've got the opportunity on Thursday to participate in a workshop for a
group of 8 singing contest finalists.

My 60 to 90-minute segment is supposed to deal with "working with a
sound engineer" to include such items as mic-technique, communication
("It sounds all 'swimmy'"), basic gear info, and anything else I, as
sound engineer, deem appropriate.

What would y'all's top 5 list for such a presentation include?

A system will be up and running, so hands-on demonstration and talent
participation is possible and encouraged.

It's not inconceivable that a singer or two of this batch could be
singing through a board or two of yours in the future, so what would
you like me to tell them?

Thanks for any input, and I'll be sure to let you know how this thing
turns out!

Easy. Here's my top often experienced misuses of mics.


1. Don't 'cup' the mic. Most of all, this destroys the mic's 'front to
back' ratio and virtually ensures feedback.

2. Don't 'sing' into the mic at 90 degrees off axis - even if you saw
that cool band do it on TV. The mic's frequency response off axis is lousy
and your sound will be lousy too.

3. Don't 'eat' the mic. Using a mic close up results in huge bass boost
( well for the universally used cardioid pattern mics in live use anyway )
and will probably overload the mic pre-amp on the desk.

4. Don't point the mic all over the place when you're not singing into
it. Likely you'll end up with feedback from a floor monitor.

5. Learn how to sing ! It makes the engineer's job so much easier than
trying to amplify someone talking into the mic.


Graham

Richard Crowley wrote:

"André Champaloux" wrote ...
#7: please do not crosspost to several newsgroups at the same time.

#8: Reject oversimplified statements like #7. Crossposting is not
only useful but desirable for the appropriate purposes. Certainly
it can be abused, same as anything else that is useful, etc.

Indeed sensible crosspsoting to related groups is to be encouraged since
it maintains the continuity of a thread instead of creating multiple
replica responses and avoids ****ing off ppl who responded in one ng onlt
to see the same msg appear in another they visit.

Reposted to rec.audio.pro


Graham

dynamics control....

move the mic away when you sing loud, move it close when you sing soft

Mark

"EGO" wrote in message
oups.com...
7. Memorize 4 and 6.

P.S. I hate mic eaters, too.


Isn't mic eating almost a necessity when singing in a LOUD band using a
marginal PA in room that's poorly designed acoustically? ( for example most
small clubs and band rehearsal spaces )

--
John L Rice

John L Rice wrote:

"EGO" wrote in message
oups.com...
7. Memorize 4 and 6.

P.S. I hate mic eaters, too.


Isn't mic eating almost a necessity when singing in a LOUD band using a
marginal PA in room that's poorly designed acoustically? ( for example most
small clubs and band rehearsal spaces )

NO.

It's a sign that the back line is too loud which is a sure *guarantee* of a
lousy sound in the places you mention.

If the guitarists insist on being loud - find new guitarists !


Graham

John L Rice wrote:

Isn't mic eating almost a necessity when singing in a LOUD band using a
marginal PA in room that's poorly designed acoustically? ( for example most
small clubs and band rehearsal spaces )

Not really. I don't think it helps intelligibility at all in that situation.
I think in that situation you're pretty much screwed, period. Eating the
mike just makes it louder.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Pooh Bear wrote:
John L Rice wrote:

"EGO" wrote in message
oups.com...
7. Memorize 4 and 6.

P.S. I hate mic eaters, too.


Isn't mic eating almost a necessity when singing in a LOUD band
using a marginal PA in room that's poorly designed acoustically? (
for example most small clubs and band rehearsal spaces )

NO.

Yes:-)


It's a sign that the back line is too loud which is a sure
*guarantee* of a lousy sound in the places you mention.

Not at all. Its just a sign that the back line may be loud. There is
nothing wrong in playing loud by itself. Lots of music sounds crap when
played quiet.


If the guitarists insist on being loud - find new guitarists !

I can't really agree. There are lots of venues where you can't
practically get the volume up loud enough without feedback, without
eating the mic. Gene Sweeny actually address this point very well in his
post.

Kevin Aylward

http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

Kevin Aylward wrote:

Pooh Bear wrote:
John L Rice wrote:

"EGO" wrote in message
oups.com...
7. Memorize 4 and 6.

P.S. I hate mic eaters, too.


Isn't mic eating almost a necessity when singing in a LOUD band
using a marginal PA in room that's poorly designed acoustically? (
for example most small clubs and band rehearsal spaces )

NO.

Yes:-)


It's a sign that the back line is too loud which is a sure
*guarantee* of a lousy sound in the places you mention.

Not at all. Its just a sign that the back line may be loud.

*May* !!! ????

There is
nothing wrong in playing loud by itself. Lots of music sounds crap when
played quiet.

Where did I mention *quiet* ? ;-)

Most music sounds dreadful when played idiotically, stoopidly *LOUD* !


If the guitarists insist on being loud - find new guitarists !

I can't really agree. There are lots of venues where you can't
practically get the volume up loud enough without feedback, without
eating the mic. Gene Sweeny actually address this point very well in his
post.

'twas never a problem when I used to hire out a rig.

If you can only get a vocal to backline ratio by eating the mic, I repeat,
the backline's too loud.

Besides, you simply *cannot* get an acceptable sound, never mind a good one
when the mic's being eaten.

As you have mentioned elsewhere, Kevin, lousy sound is everywhere. It didn't
use to be ( to use the vernacular ) ! Go figure.


Graham

"Pooh Bear" wrote in message
...
Kevin Aylward wrote:

snip

You know this **** IRL Graham. Is he really as dumb as he comes across on
here?

Phildo

"Pooh Bear" wrote in message
...

John L Rice wrote:

[...]
Isn't mic eating almost a necessity when singing in a LOUD band using a
marginal PA in room that's poorly designed acoustically? ( for example
most
small clubs and band rehearsal spaces )

NO.

It's a sign that the back line is too loud which is a sure *guarantee* of
a
lousy sound in the places you mention.


I seem to end up in a lot of small rooms where there's a hard corner
(plaster ceiling and glass wall) right behind the band, a perfect reflector
for the monitors right back into the mic. Very hard to get much GBF unless
the singer gets right up on the mic in that situation - particularly if the
singer has taken one of the other points into consideration and gotten a mic
that sounds nice on their voice by boosting up the highs.

Are there better ways of dealing with that situation? (Other than "don't
work that venue"?)

Walter Harley wrote:


I seem to end up in a lot of small rooms where there's a hard corner
(plaster ceiling and glass wall) right behind the band, a perfect reflector
for the monitors right back into the mic. Very hard to get much GBF unless
the singer gets right up on the mic in that situation - particularly if the
singer has taken one of the other points into consideration and gotten a mic
that sounds nice on their voice by boosting up the highs.

Are there better ways of dealing with that situation? (Other than "don't
work that venue"?)

1. Mikes with tighter patterns.

2. In-ear monitors (or even Hot Spots).

3. Monitors placed to the side of the performers, pointing parallel to the
stage.

4. A big absorptive banner hung behind the band. A couple hundred bucks
will get you something with the band's name on it and decent high end
absorption. This doesn't cure anything but high end problems, but that
is a start.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Pooh Bear wrote:
Kevin Aylward wrote:

Pooh Bear wrote:
John L Rice wrote:

"EGO" wrote in message
oups.com...
7. Memorize 4 and 6.

P.S. I hate mic eaters, too.


Isn't mic eating almost a necessity when singing in a LOUD band
using a marginal PA in room that's poorly designed acoustically? (
for example most small clubs and band rehearsal spaces )

NO.

Yes:-)


It's a sign that the back line is too loud which is a sure
*guarantee* of a lousy sound in the places you mention.

Not at all. Its just a sign that the back line may be loud.

*May* !!! ????

There is
nothing wrong in playing loud by itself. Lots of music sounds crap
when played quiet.

Where did I mention *quiet* ? ;-)

Most music sounds dreadful when played idiotically, stoopidly *LOUD*
!


If the guitarists insist on being loud - find new guitarists !

I can't really agree. There are lots of venues where you can't
practically get the volume up loud enough without feedback, without
eating the mic. Gene Sweeny actually address this point very well in
his post.

'twas never a problem when I used to hire out a rig.

If you can only get a vocal to backline ratio by eating the mic, I
repeat, the backline's too loud.

Well, we will just have to agree to differ on this.


Besides, you simply *cannot* get an acceptable sound, never mind a
good one when the mic's being eaten.

Same again as above.

Kevin Aylward

http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

wrote:

On 2005-04-19 said:
I've got the opportunity on Thursday to participate in a workshop
for a group of 8 singing contest finalists.
My 60 to 90-minute segment is supposed to deal with "working with
a sound engineer" to include such items as mic-technique,
snip.
1. Don't 'cup' the mic. Most of all, this destroys the mic's
'front to back' ratio and virtually ensures feedback.
MOst important of these along with the 2nd and 4th. YEs singing off
axis isn't great either, but as long as you're not generating feedback
and killing ears and components I'll amplify your sound even if it
sucks if that's what you think you want.

I understand you. Hopefully your rig will be 'feedback tolerant' and not
blow any drivers. I'm not sure that the audience will be so feedback
tolerant though ! ;-)

The OP did however - IIRC - request advice to acheive *good results*. I
would hope that this extends beyond simply avoiding nasty squeals !

I'm wondering what the OP makes of all this - would be nice to hear some
feedback - lol.

HOwever when you cup the
mjic or wave it around generating squeals and possibly damaging
equipment you'll do the rest of your set umamplified if its my gear.
My number one thing to tell aspiring "talent would be:

If your only experience is karaoke night you're not ready.

Quite ! ;-)

Get real experience somewhere else than my rig.

Probably not so easy these days sadly. Few school bands these days IME. I
can recall a few who *rocked* btw.


Graham

Phildo wrote:

"Pooh Bear" wrote in message
...
Kevin Aylward wrote:

snip

You know this **** IRL Graham. Is he really as dumb as he comes across on
here?

I met Kevin *once* IRL in the Studiomaster R&D department IIRC when it was
still on the ground floor at Chaul End Lane.

I'd dropped in on some errand that eludes me now and was introduced to Kevin
who had effectively taken over my old position. I was to return a decade or
two later as it turns out as boss design engineer ( worst luck me ! ).

Kevin knows his tech stuff. I'm less convinced that his live experience is as
varied as mine ( and most in aapls ) though. That may explain some of his
opinions.


Graham

Kevin Aylward wrote:

Pooh Bear wrote:

snip

If you can only get a vocal to backline ratio by eating the mic, I
repeat, the backline's too loud.

Well, we will just have to agree to differ on this.

Interesting. I just got out my lovely el-cheapo but handy and surprisingly
good Tandy / Realistic / Radio Shack SPL meter. CAT. NO. 33-2050. Cheap,
sweet and very useful.

I had no trouble whatever acheiving 110dB SPL @ the measurement capsule with
my own voice just doing an attempt at a musical one-twoooo..... Not even
even any *metal shouting*.

It onlt needs 20dB of *acoustic gain* to translate that into a *very* loud
sound, typical of what the best sytems in the world acheive @ 1m.

And you *still* think eating the mic is OK ?

Besides, you simply *cannot* get an acceptable sound, never mind a
good one when the mic's being eaten.

Same again as above.

I think we work to different standards.

I don't normally blow my own trumpet but when I ceased being the PA guy for
a band I'd gigged with for ages - The Tea Set should anyone remember them
or their memorable graffiti on the bridges over the M1 near London ;-) -
the main members asked if I'd engineer for them on any future events. Got to
play with a brand new Yammie 3k as a result when they were first out ! ( the
band broke up btw - actually their last gig was a blast - everyone was
enjoying it including me on the desk - it was one of the few really good
halls I've ever gigged in too - and knew - just to make it even better )


Graham

Walter Harley wrote:

"Pooh Bear" wrote in message
...

John L Rice wrote:

[...]
Isn't mic eating almost a necessity when singing in a LOUD band using a
marginal PA in room that's poorly designed acoustically? ( for example
most
small clubs and band rehearsal spaces )

NO.

It's a sign that the back line is too loud which is a sure *guarantee* of
a
lousy sound in the places you mention.

I seem to end up in a lot of small rooms where there's a hard corner
(plaster ceiling and glass wall) right behind the band, a perfect reflector
for the monitors right back into the mic. Very hard to get much GBF unless
the singer gets right up on the mic in that situation - particularly if the
singer has taken one of the other points into consideration and gotten a mic
that sounds nice on their voice by boosting up the highs.

Are there better ways of dealing with that situation? (Other than "don't
work that venue"?)

If it happens that often, you might wish to consider constructing some simple
lightweight transportable absorbtion panels to deal with the glass area. Needn't
be anything fancy - perforated hardboard base with a layer of mineral wool (
loft insulation ) either side topped with a hessian covering. Should be fine on
a wooden frame. Make in sizes suited to your DIY store stock !

Not a lot you can do about the ceiling - but I've heard of a venue that used old
duvets ( not sure what you call them in the US - quilts ? ) slung from the
ceiling.

That should fix it. It'll be lightweight too. And cheap.


Graham

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On 2005-04-19 said:
I've got the opportunity on Thursday to participate in a workshop
for a group of 8 singing contest finalists.
My 60 to 90-minute segment is supposed to deal with "working with
a sound engineer" to include such items as mic-technique,
snip.
1. Don't 'cup' the mic. Most of all, this destroys the mic's
'front to back' ratio and virtually ensures feedback.
MOst important of these along with the 2nd and 4th. YEs singing off
axis isn't great either, but as long as you're not generating feedback
and killing ears and components I'll amplify your sound even if it
sucks if that's what you think you want. HOwever when you cup the
mjic or wave it around generating squeals and possibly damaging
equipment you'll do the rest of your set umamplified if its my gear.
My number one thing to tell aspiring "talent would be:

If your only experience is karaoke night you're not ready. Get real
experience somewhere else than my rig.



Richard Webb,
Electric SPider Productions, New Orleans, La.
REplace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real email

--

Kevin Aylward wrote:
Pooh Bear wrote:
John L Rice wrote:

"EGO" wrote in message
oups.com...
7. Memorize 4 and 6.

P.S. I hate mic eaters, too.


Isn't mic eating almost a necessity when singing in a LOUD band
using a marginal PA in room that's poorly designed acoustically?
(
for example most small clubs and band rehearsal spaces )

NO.

Yes:-)

Absolutely not.

Sound pressure increases 6db for every halfing of distance. If a
singer produces a sound of 100db at 30cm, then at 15cm 106 and so on.
Eat the mic.... say distance is 1cm, the increase in dB percieved at
the mic capsule is:
log2(30) * 6 + 100 or 129 dB.

Add 20db of system gain to that.... holy crap.



It's a sign that the back line is too loud which is a sure
*guarantee* of a lousy sound in the places you mention.

Not at all. Its just a sign that the back line may be loud. There is
nothing wrong in playing loud by itself. Lots of music sounds crap
when
played quiet.

you statement is not the converse of Graham's. Graham doesn't say that
there isn't crappy quiet music. He just says that very loud music is
almost a guarantee of crappy sound.



If the guitarists insist on being loud - find new guitarists !

I can't really agree. There are lots of venues where you can't
practically get the volume up loud enough without feedback, without
eating the mic. Gene Sweeny actually address this point very well in
his
post.

Kev, you're dead wrong on this. You've misconstrued my original post.
My statement was that in any given room there is a maximum amount of
system gain that can be achieved. Eating the mic doesn't help this.
Singing louder and pulling the mic away is the proper solution.
Actually, telling the damn guitar player to turn down will fix it
faster.

Go read the JBL sound reinforcement manual, it will all become clearer.
There are such things as feedback rejection when you sing closer to
the mic, but "eating it" is never an option. The dynamics change to
quickly at close proximity to a mic capsule for any system to handle
with out hitting the limiters hard.

"Pooh Bear" wrote in message
...
[...] I've heard of a venue that used old
duvets ( not sure what you call them in the US - quilts ? )

They call 'em duvets here, too. It makes them sound European :-)

"Gene Sweeny" wrote in message
oups.com...

Kevin Aylward wrote:
Pooh Bear wrote:
John L Rice wrote:

"EGO" wrote in message
oups.com...
7. Memorize 4 and 6.

P.S. I hate mic eaters, too.


Isn't mic eating almost a necessity when singing in a LOUD band
using a marginal PA in room that's poorly designed acoustically?
(
for example most small clubs and band rehearsal spaces )

NO.

Yes:-)

Absolutely not.

Sound pressure increases 6db for every halfing of distance. If a
singer produces a sound of 100db at 30cm, then at 15cm 106 and so on.
Eat the mic.... say distance is 1cm, the increase in dB percieved at
the mic capsule is:
log2(30) * 6 + 100 or 129 dB.

Add 20db of system gain to that.... holy crap.



It's a sign that the back line is too loud which is a sure
*guarantee* of a lousy sound in the places you mention.

Not at all. Its just a sign that the back line may be loud. There is
nothing wrong in playing loud by itself. Lots of music sounds crap
when
played quiet.

you statement is not the converse of Graham's. Graham doesn't say that
there isn't crappy quiet music. He just says that very loud music is
almost a guarantee of crappy sound.



If the guitarists insist on being loud - find new guitarists !

I can't really agree. There are lots of venues where you can't
practically get the volume up loud enough without feedback, without
eating the mic. Gene Sweeny actually address this point very well in
his
post.

Kev, you're dead wrong on this. You've misconstrued my original post.
My statement was that in any given room there is a maximum amount of
system gain that can be achieved. Eating the mic doesn't help this.
Singing louder and pulling the mic away is the proper solution.
Actually, telling the damn guitar player to turn down will fix it
faster.

Go read the JBL sound reinforcement manual, it will all become clearer.
There are such things as feedback rejection when you sing closer to
the mic, but "eating it" is never an option. The dynamics change to
quickly at close proximity to a mic capsule for any system to handle
with out hitting the limiters hard.


It might be helpful if we actually establish what is considered 'eating the
mic' since I'm unsure. I'm thinking anything from lips 1" away from the
grill/foam pop filter to lips brushing/resting on the grill/foam pop filter.
Is this considered eating or not?

Also, while turning down the back line is sometimes possible, having a
singer sing louder is more often than not not possible. Some singers don't
have very loud voices and asking them to sing louder could hurt their
performance or voice. ( sure, with time and training they could do it, but
not suddenly at a gig )

John L Rice

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message ...

wrote:

What would y'all's top 5 list for such a presentation include?


some snippage occurs

1.a Learn to work the mike.

1.b Don't stick your face right up to the mike.

4. Don't be a mike eater.

5. Learn what causes feedback

6. Don't be a mike eater.


I think you owe us another one. ;-)

DM

"Pooh Bear" wrote in message
...

I think we work to different standards.

Actually, you have standards, Our Kev obviously doesn't as long as he gets
rebooked.

Phildo

"John L Rice" wrote in message ...


"Gene Sweeny" wrote in message
oups.com...

Kevin Aylward wrote:
Pooh Bear wrote:
John L Rice wrote:

"EGO" wrote in message
oups.com...
7. Memorize 4 and 6.

P.S. I hate mic eaters, too.


Isn't mic eating almost a necessity when singing in a LOUD band
using a marginal PA in room that's poorly designed acoustically?
(
for example most small clubs and band rehearsal spaces )

NO.

Yes:-)

Absolutely not.

Sound pressure increases 6db for every halfing of distance. If a
singer produces a sound of 100db at 30cm, then at 15cm 106 and so on.
Eat the mic.... say distance is 1cm, the increase in dB percieved at
the mic capsule is:
log2(30) * 6 + 100 or 129 dB.

Add 20db of system gain to that.... holy crap.



It's a sign that the back line is too loud which is a sure
*guarantee* of a lousy sound in the places you mention.

Not at all. Its just a sign that the back line may be loud. There is
nothing wrong in playing loud by itself. Lots of music sounds crap
when
played quiet.

you statement is not the converse of Graham's. Graham doesn't say that
there isn't crappy quiet music. He just says that very loud music is
almost a guarantee of crappy sound.



If the guitarists insist on being loud - find new guitarists !

I can't really agree. There are lots of venues where you can't
practically get the volume up loud enough without feedback, without
eating the mic. Gene Sweeny actually address this point very well in
his
post.

Kev, you're dead wrong on this. You've misconstrued my original post.
My statement was that in any given room there is a maximum amount of
system gain that can be achieved. Eating the mic doesn't help this.
Singing louder and pulling the mic away is the proper solution.
Actually, telling the damn guitar player to turn down will fix it
faster.

Go read the JBL sound reinforcement manual, it will all become clearer.
There are such things as feedback rejection when you sing closer to
the mic, but "eating it" is never an option. The dynamics change to
quickly at close proximity to a mic capsule for any system to handle
with out hitting the limiters hard.

Most common mics are gonna' crap out (for holding quality) below Gene's
129 dB... so you can try as you will, but it ain't gonna' sound much better
once that's come into play.

It might be helpful if we actually establish what is considered 'eating the
mic' since I'm unsure. I'm thinking anything from lips 1" away from the
grill/foam pop filter to lips brushing/resting on the grill/foam pop filter.
Is this considered eating or not?

It depends on what you do when you get listerine close to that sweet,
smooth, fresh foam pop filter. ;-) Take the fruit ca.... er.., pop rock
singer that has to cup the mic in both hands while screaming into it
at the top of his lungs, leaving about two teaspoons of saliva per verse.
That's eating the mic, IMHO.

There's a trick to 'working' a mic up close, but your idea of an inch or better
is more along my line of thinking. I've seen seasoned performers that could
find thier 'spot' on a mic at ten inches or more and spend nearly the whole
night there.

Also, while turning down the back line is sometimes possible...

It's always "possible". g

Scott mentioned putting monitors on the sides, firing parallel to the stage.
I find myself in smaller rooms begging the bands to do this with amps.
If you're limited, you have to do whatever is necessary to play to that
limitation, so that the vocalist doesn't *have* to feel like overcoming
the explosion levels of a nuetron bomb is really necessary.

--
David Morgan (MAMS)
http://www.m-a-m-s DOT com
Morgan Audio Media Service
Dallas, Texas (214) 662-9901
_______________________________________
http://www.artisan-recordingstudio.com