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"Soundhaspriority" wrote in message

"Ethan Winer" ethanw at ethanwiner dot com wrote in
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...



First you should measure, with oscillator or a
Stereophile Test CD, and a lowly Radio Shack SPL meter.
If the room is pressurizing below a certain frequency,
the measured SPL at or below that frequency will be
independent of position.


So far so good.

As you go up in frequency, you should see
the modes. Chart them out in 1/3 octave steps.


The train seems to be headed off the tracks.

Small rooms do have this situation where they start tipping up the bass
below a certain frequency. Ideally, you match that up with the roll-offs of
the woofers, and it really works. There are two problematical situations,
one where the woofer starts rolling off out before the room starts picking
up, and the other where the room starts picking up before the woofer starts
rolling up. The first situation gives you a hole, while the second gives
you a peak. The peak is more troublesome, but neither is ideal.

This is independent of modes, but your measurements will probably show both.
The only useful information about modes would relate to how you use your
knowlege of them to more precisely identify any mismatches between your
woofers and the room.

One approach to backing modes out of room measurements is to take
measurements at diverse locations. The modes are location-dependent so they
will eventually average out. Unfortunately, you might grow old taking
enough data to get reliable results.

I've seen arrays of like a dozen mics and complex averaging hardware used to
get reliable high resolution results in a reasonble amount of time.
Thinkable for developing small rooms with audio systems that are produced in
volume, but otherwise not. IOW, the automotive guys have been here, and
left.

Third octave tests are not useful in small rooms. I've
seen peaks and adjacent nulls closer than a musical
whole step. This is not only common, but typical. So
third-octave is mostly a "spot check" here and there,
and completely misses the true response and the mode
frequencies.


Agreed.

I'm giving him a methodology for which the tools are
cheap and simple. If I were doing the job, I would use a
spectrum analyzer.


Won't help. A detailed view of mud is still mud.

But you're wrong about the traps. His room is too
small, and the problem too severe.


What small rooms do is either a problem or an opportunity, depending on how
you manage it. In the end, you might end up with both traps and some eq.
The traps are going to help you make any remaining problems more clear, and
easier to manage.




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On Mar 18, 8:04 am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
What small rooms do is either a problem or an opportunity, depending on how
you manage it. In the end, you might end up with both traps and some eq.


Going back to the original message, his room is 9 x 13 feet with a 7
foot ceiling. It's smallish, but not that small. People record in
smaller rooms, and use smaller rooms as control rooms, and they make
them work.

One of the solutions is to simply get rid of the bass fed to the
monitors, that's throwing off your perception of the mix and leave
correcting the "unknown" low end to the mastering engineer. Of course
if the mastering engineer is you and the mastering suite is the same
room in which you mixed without any low end, that's a problem. But
like most problems, it can be solved with money. The question is where
to throw the money:

- Into your room directly

- At a professional who will help you throw money into your room

- At a professional who will allow you to ignore your room's problems
and fix them for you afterwards.


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But
like most problems, it can be solved with money. The question is where
to throw the money:

- Into your room directly


Been there, done that, but would do it again if it really worked.


- At a professional who will help you throw money into your room



Someone who knows more than I about getting it right technically?
sure, it's a good investment.


- At a professional who will allow you to ignore your room's problems
and fix them for you afterwards.



Never. If It's not right within MY 4 walls, it doesnt leave the
studio.

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"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
ups.com
On Mar 18, 8:04 am, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:
What small rooms do is either a problem or an
opportunity, depending on how you manage it. In the end,
you might end up with both traps and some eq.


Going back to the original message, his room is 9 x 13
feet with a 7 foot ceiling. It's smallish, but not that
small. People record in smaller rooms, and use smaller
rooms as control rooms, and they make them work.


Agreed.


One of the solutions is to simply get rid of the bass fed
to the monitors, that's throwing off your perception of
the mix and leave correcting the "unknown" low end to the
mastering engineer.


That amounts to equalization.

Of course if the mastering engineer
is you and the mastering suite is the same room in which
you mixed without any low end, that's a problem. But like
most problems, it can be solved with money. The question
is where to throw the money:


- Into your room directly


- At a professional who will help you throw money into
your room


- At a professional who will allow you to ignore your
room's problems and fix them for you afterwards.


;-)


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On Mar 18, 12:34 pm, "Ben - TheStudioRI.com"
wrote:

- At a professional who will help you throw money into your room


Someone who knows more than I about getting it right technically?
sure, it's a good investment.


That's what they're supposed to do. The trick is to find the right
one.

If It's not right within MY 4 walls, it doesnt leave the studio.


That's fine if your studio will support that and you're good enough,
but takes a pretty big ego. Some of the best engineers and producers
in the business depend on another set of ears and a different
monitoring environment to get it right. It's nothing to be ashamed of.
Correcting for room deficiencies that affect a mix is big business for
the Mastering Industry today. But like with the professional acoustic
consultant, you have to find the right one.

But do whatever you want. It's your money, your studio, your
reputation, and your ego.






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On Mar 18, 1:11 pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"Mike Rivers" wrote in message


One of the solutions is to simply get rid of the bass fed
to the monitors, that's throwing off your perception of
the mix and leave correcting the "unknown" low end to the
mastering engineer.


That amounts to equalization.


OK, you're stating a fact, but I wonder if you mean it in the sense
that it's a bad thing, something to be avoided. It probably can be
avoided (at least as a gross solution) if the room is properly built,
but in this particular case, it sounds like that isn't going to
happen. Ben has already "treated" his room, he doesn't trust his
monitors, and he doesn't seem to be ready to call in someone who can
properly analyze his problem and suggest a practical solution. We're
just guessing here, suggesting things that have worked in other rooms,
but as you know, every room is unique. And while there are a number of
products on the market designed to improve any room, apparently the
choice (or quantity) isn't right for this room.


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Mike,

Ben has already "treated" his room


Yes, but with foam bass traps. :-)

--Ethan


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Bob,

the effect he reports is too severe to be dealt with by traps alone.


Bass traps can help down to about 40 Hz if you have enough of them. The
lowest mode in his 13 foot room is 43 Hz. I agree that bass traps, even
really good bass traps, will not do much down there. A SMALL amount of EQ
could be used to reduce that one lowest mode. But in most rooms the real
problems start around 60 to 80 Hz, and good bass traps will definitely help
there.

Traps have no effect below the fundamental room modes.


If you think about it, bass traps are never needed below the fundamental
room mode frequencies.

I am the only person in this thread who has actually given Ben a
prescription.


Not so! My prescription is more and better bass traps. That will help Ben
far more than any EQ. If he chooses to ALSO use EQ cut for the one lowest
mode, that's his decision. But that would be after adding enough good traps
to take care of what is the much larger problem - the bass range from above
60 to 80 Hz.

Also, bass problems in small rooms are not only modal. Comb filtering is
another major cause of peaks and nulls, and the frequencies are often
related to the distance between the listener and the rear wall behind.

--Ethan


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"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
oups.com
On Mar 18, 1:11 pm, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:


"Mike Rivers" wrote in message


One of the solutions is to simply get rid of the bass
fed to the monitors, that's throwing off your
perception of the mix and leave correcting the
"unknown" low end to the mastering engineer.


That amounts to equalization.


OK, you're stating a fact, but I wonder if you mean it in
the sense that it's a bad thing, something to be avoided.


Not at all. I'm as critical as anybody of the idea of equalizing out the
nulls and peaks that are always there below 200 Hz. My point is that in
certain applications, broadband equalization which is what this roll-off is,
can make some sense. It still might not be the best solution, but it might
be the most practical solution.

It probably can be avoided (at least as a gross solution)
if the room is properly built, but in this particular
case, it sounds like that isn't going to happen.


Also, there's this problem of matching of woofers and rooms.

Ben has
already "treated" his room, he doesn't trust his
monitors, and he doesn't seem to be ready to call in
someone who can properly analyze his problem and suggest
a practical solution.


Some broadband eq in the LF range may help.

We're just guessing here,


Totally agreed!

But I strongly suspect that not using bass traps could easily be a move in
the wrong direction.

suggesting things that have worked in other rooms, but as
you know, every room is unique. And while there are a
number of products on the market designed to improve any
room, apparently the choice (or quantity) isn't right for
this room.


Agreed.



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"Ethan Winer" ethanw at ethanwiner dot com wrote in
message
Mike,

Ben has already "treated" his room


Yes, but with foam bass traps. :-)



Given how acoustically-transparent most foam is at low frequencies, isn't
"Foam Bass Trap" an oxymoron? ;-)




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On Mar 18, 2:08 pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote:

I'm as critical as anybody of the idea of equalizing out the
nulls and peaks that are always there below 200 Hz. My point is that in
certain applications, broadband equalization which is what this roll-off is,
can make some sense. It still might not be the best solution, but it might
be the most practical solution.


My thought was not to try to equalize the low end to flatten it out,
it was to just whack it off so that it wouldn't distract him from
making a good mix EXCEPT for the low end. It would be like using
speakers that don't reproduce anything below, say, 100 Hz, but are
nice and smooth otherwise. He wouldn't know what was going on down
there, but chances are there's something useful but it needs to be
thinned out. That can be done by someone who can hear what it sounds
like, assuming that the mastering engineer has good taste and is told
that this is to be part of his mastering job..


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"Ethan Winer" ethanw at ethanwiner dot comedy wrote:

Bob,

But you're wrong about the traps. His room is too small, and the problem
too severe.


In fact, the smaller the room, the great amount of bass trapping it needs.
I'm curious as to what negative result you believe will occur from adding
bass traps.


Won't leave enough room for CD players.

--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam
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Soundhaspriority wrote:

My advice to Ben may seem rough and ready, but I am the only person in this
thread who has actually given Ben a prescription.


My personal experience with the given prescription is that it further
sickens the patient.

--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam
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Arny Krueger wrote:

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
ups.com
On Mar 18, 8:04 am, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:
What small rooms do is either a problem or an
opportunity, depending on how you manage it. In the end,
you might end up with both traps and some eq.


Going back to the original message, his room is 9 x 13
feet with a 7 foot ceiling. It's smallish, but not that
small. People record in smaller rooms, and use smaller
rooms as control rooms, and they make them work.


Agreed.


One of the solutions is to simply get rid of the bass fed
to the monitors, that's throwing off your perception of
the mix and leave correcting the "unknown" low end to the
mastering engineer.


That amounts to equalization.


But in the case, not narrowband EQ. And I agree that I have seen that
work, but not without the rest of the room's physical problems being
dealt with acoustically.

--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam
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"Ethan Winer" ethanw at ethanwiner dot comedy wrote:

Mike,

Ben has already "treated" his room


Yes, but with foam bass traps. :-)


A marshmallow prison wall...

--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam


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Arny Krueger wrote:

"Ethan Winer" wrote
Mike,


Ben has already "treated" his room


Yes, but with foam bass traps. :-)


Given how acoustically-transparent most foam is at low frequencies, isn't
"Foam Bass Trap" an oxymoron? ;-)


Well, they work okay if you have lots of "foam bass". Otherwise, not.

--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam
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"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
oups.com
On Mar 18, 2:08 pm, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

I'm as critical as anybody of the idea of equalizing out
the
nulls and peaks that are always there below 200 Hz. My
point is that in certain applications, broadband
equalization which is what this roll-off is, can make
some sense. It still might not be the best solution, but
it might be the most practical solution.


My thought was not to try to equalize the low end to
flatten it out, it was to just whack it off so that it
wouldn't distract him from making a good mix EXCEPT for
the low end. It would be like using speakers that don't
reproduce anything below, say, 100 Hz, but are nice and
smooth otherwise. He wouldn't know what was going on down
there, but chances are there's something useful but it
needs to be thinned out. That can be done by someone who
can hear what it sounds like, assuming that the mastering
engineer has good taste and is told that this is to be
part of his mastering job..


From what I can tell, a lot of the world of recording worked this way up
until the 80s or 90s. A lot of tracking and mixing was done with monitors
that really didn't have a lot of bass. If the mastering room was also
bass-challenged, stuff went out that sounds fine until you played it on a
system where you can hear the difference.

Given how intolerant vinyl is of too much bass, I'm wondering how the cutter
room boys defended themselves. Maybe they just listened carefully to their
lacquers, redid the ones that sounded bad, and trash-canned the ones that
needed high pass filtering.


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"Ty Ford" wrote in message

On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 10:45:42 -0400, kooz wrote
(in article
.com):

On Mar 15, 8:58 am, Ty Ford
wrote:
On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 12:02:35 -0400, Ben -
TheStudioRI.com wrote (in article
. com):

Ok, here we go. my control room measures 9x13x7. the
speakers are against the 9 back wall. I've done
EVERYTHING I know how to do to tame the bass. I have
bass traps in every corner, a custom 8" bass trap on
the back wall behind the speakers, foam bass traps
along the rear wall, diffusers above the mix position,
etc. nothing has really helped. aside from
redesigning the entire room (which I would do, but
only if nothing else helps), what are your
suggestions?

Ben,

Specifically, what is the problem?

Regards,

Ty Ford

--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demoshttp://www.tyford.com
Guitar
player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RZJ9MptZmU


This thread started with an earlier post. Ben was
asking for advice on "better" monitors to replace his
Mackie HR824s with, since the mixes he is making on his
Sennheiser headphones "translate better" and "have
better imaging." It seems the group has convinced him
to examine his "professionally designed/treated" control
room/mix suite acoustics, but his "years of engineering
experience" are suggesting that his current set-up is
adequate.


Hmm, classic case of which one's right. Chances are
neither are totally right, but since "fixing" the
headphones isn't really an option, you start thinking
room.

I have nodes in my room. I know where they are. I know
how much more to expect from them. I go to them to check
mixes. If I'm hear more than X in them, I have to pull
back the LF EQ.

I haven't been in a studio yet that doesn't have audible
nodes somewhere; walls, corners and other places. Try not
to get hung up on nodes. I don't know where you have the
Mackies in relationship to the corners walls and ceiling.
Could yo post a jpg of an overhead view?

In a related note: I'm breaking in my Acura RSX speakers
as translation speakers and find a BIG difference between
them and my JBL L100. Driving me a bit nuts on the
present project, but I'll get it.


Ironically, the Acura RSX speakers are probably a good example of
dovetailing speakers with limited bass extension to a room that starts
kicking up the bass at a relatively high frequency. If they get it right,
this technique can be pretty impressive.

Thing is the car sound boys can get it right with the speakers and then blow
it elsewhere in the system. My Milan (Fusion with different grille and
taillights) gets it right, but only if you first turn the bass control *all*
the way down. You also have to turn the treble almost all the way down.
Suddenly, the sound very extended and reasonably smooth in both directions.
Dynamic range improves dramatically. It's almost like they shipped it with
the loudness contour from an old Fisher tube receiver turned on all the
time. ;-)

Some of the best OEM sound systems in the industry end up in Chrysler trucks
and Jeeps.


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On Mar 19, 9:15 am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:

From what I can tell, a lot of the world of recording worked this way up
until the 80s or 90s. A lot of tracking and mixing was done with monitors
that really didn't have a lot of bass. If the mastering room was also
bass-challenged, stuff went out that sounds fine until you played it on a
system where you can hear the difference.


A local cassette duplication house that I worked with in the '80s, for
their first pass listen, used to throw a 100 Hz high pass filter on
anything that came in from a source they didn't know. They were
getting in tapes from people who loved to put a lot of low end on from
their synths, but couldn't hear just how much was there, and the dupe
house lost a few woofers by playing overly-bassy recordings.

Given how intolerant vinyl is of too much bass, I'm wondering how the cutter
room boys defended themselves. Maybe they just listened carefully to their
lacquers, redid the ones that sounded bad, and trash-canned the ones that
needed high pass filtering.


Generally there was a limiter to protect the cutter, but it was
routine to pan the bass to the center where there would be minimum
vertical motion of the stylus. The automated pitch adjustment would
usually keep the grooves apart, but sometimes they just had to do it
over.


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Ben has already "treated" his room, he doesn't trust his
monitors, and he doesn't seem to be ready to call in someone who can
properly analyze his problem and suggest a practical solution.


have you been reading my posts or just skimming them? I specifically
recall asking if anyone could refer me to someone good in my area
(RI). For the record, i'm ready. gimme names and numbers.



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If It's not right within MY 4 walls, it doesnt leave the studio.


That's fine if your studio will support that and you're good enough,
but takes a pretty big ego. Some of the best engineers and producers
in the business depend on another set of ears and a different
monitoring environment to get it right. It's nothing to be ashamed of.
Correcting for room deficiencies that affect a mix is big business for
the Mastering Industry today. But like with the professional acoustic
consultant, you have to find the right one.

But do whatever you want. It's your money, your studio, your
reputation, and your ego.



My ego? Is it an ego issue that I want as close to a finished product
as possible before it goes to mastering? Isn't that what a good
recording engineer does?
sorry, but if i'm not happy with a mix, it doesnt leave. period.
call me an egomanic if that's what it makes me, but in my school of
learning, anything else is called being a "hack".

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Arny Krueger wrote:

From what I can tell, a lot of the world of recording worked this way up
until the 80s or 90s. A lot of tracking and mixing was done with monitors
that really didn't have a lot of bass. If the mastering room was also
bass-challenged, stuff went out that sounds fine until you played it on a
system where you can hear the difference.


A lot of places in the seventies did this, but then a lot of places always
just would knock all the low end off in mastering anyway to keep records
from skipping on a Close 'N Play.

But after a while people started expecting real low end on even quick and
dirty pop music releases. And control rooms had to get better. Even so,
lots of people were forced to use stupid tricks like watching the cone
breakup patterns on NS-10s to judge their low end.

Given how intolerant vinyl is of too much bass, I'm wondering how the cutter
room boys defended themselves. Maybe they just listened carefully to their
lacquers, redid the ones that sounded bad, and trash-canned the ones that
needed high pass filtering.


I worked for a company that did 45s for jukeboxes. We cut around thirty
lacquers a day. There was no TIME to do careful mastering... folks tended
just to throw the low pass filter on just in case. Of course, most of the
disks we shipped sounded godawful, but the customers were happy.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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On Mar 19, 2:55 pm, "Ben - TheStudioRI.com"

have you been reading my posts or just skimming them? I specifically
recall asking if anyone could refer me to someone good in my area
(RI). For the record, i'm ready. gimme names and numbers.


I don't hang on every word, but I get the gist. I'm also not a
reference librarian, but I suspect that you aren't going to find
anyone in Rode Island who knows studio acoustics. Boston perhaps.
There's a large studio supply house there that I can't think of the
name of - three letters, as I recall. John Storyk, who works out of
New York likes to do project studios. And if you were to make some
drawings of your room and send them to Ethan Winer (who has already
made some suggestions without blatantly hawking his company's
products) I'll bet he'd send you a design that would work quite well.

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Mike,

And if you were to make some drawings of your room and send them to Ethan
Winer (who has already made some suggestions without blatantly hawking his
company's products) I'll bet he'd send you a design that would work quite
well.


Thanks much for the plug. I do exactly that every day, for no fee as part of
the sale of our products. I'm not opposed to consultants when warranted and
when the budget is there. But in cases like this I'd rather see someone put
that money into buying more bass traps because in the end that's what's
needed most.

--Ethan


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But do whatever you want. It's your money, your studio, your
reputation, and your ego.



My ego? Is it an ego issue that I want as close to a finished product
as possible before it goes to mastering? Isn't that what a good
recording engineer does?
sorry, but if i'm not happy with a mix, it doesnt leave. period.
call me an egomanic if that's what it makes me, but in my school of
learning, anything else is called being a "hack".


I think you took this the wrong way...

There's nothing egotistical about aiming for perfection - that's the recipe
for success afterall. However you do have to be reasonable about what you
expect out of your facility. It's no coincidence that studios used to cost a
lot more and music used to sound a lot better.



--
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